y
&gt; accurate/formal/etc. representational framework. The problems we are
talking
&gt; about arise when we start using a sufficiently accurate/formal/etc.
&gt; representational framework. To slip into a Hayes rhetorical mode for a
&gt; moment - if you are taking these as your examples, you have little or no
&gt; idea of the kinds of tasks that need to be done to produce something
useful
&gt; for commercial/industrial systems.

My thought:

I would truly like to understand what you mean by "useful"?  I won