#201 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (26258 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1

The giants weren't even facing the shields

Yes, they were. McGonagall used a shield charm against a giant, it succeeded. Are you telling me bullets > Giants? If so, then you have lost all credibility.

She didn't. Talk of credibility lol.

#202 Posted by Ironshinobi88 (1868 posts) - - Show Bio
  
#203 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: No the Giants actually according to the wiki at least. Never fought wizards they fought creatures in the last possible. Mainly Grawp (A giant himself), Hippogryffs, and Thestrals during the battle. So the reason they didn't use shields was they where not fighting them. The Trio ran into one but fled from it because they had other things that needed done.

#204 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (26258 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike: What do you mean centaurs had nothing to do with it? If the shield were capable of stopping physical advance, why didn't death eaters in part 7, or umbridge in part 5 use it? Why didn't death eaters,even voldemort use it to stop arrows? they are simply seen 'pulling arrows out of their wounds'. If they can't use it against arrows, the can't use it against bullet. Where does it show giants interacting with the hogwarts shield? And why do people run away scared from giants and spiders if the shield charm is so effective? why didn't they stop house elves from stabbing them using shield charms?

I am not saying shields can't hold out physical objects. I'm questioning their durability, more specifically, can they keep out bullets. Why exactly do you think no death eater has the idea to put up shields against arrows? And why will they suddenly feel like putting it up against guns, assuming they have time to do so?

@princearagorn1: Two-faced.

Experience Wizards such as Dumbledore, Voldemort, Snape, McGonagall, with prep would simply walk past any sort of bullets. You agreed. However, it's different in this case, isn't it?

Thirty seconds prep. Thirty. What's with the two faced, are you saying if I say hp side loses in a thread, I can't say they win where they should? Each thread is against different opponents, and different scenarios.

#205 Edited by Perpetr8rMike (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Its possible they didn't think the Arrows where much of a threat, they are not exactly pin point and why waste the time. Also as pointed out before not everyone can cast them, maybe those DeathEaters couldn't. Now most students can in HP age only due to Harry teaching so many.

So again I will point this out, ONLY PUREBLOODS are ignorant to Muggle weapons, Muggle-Born or Half-Bloods are well aware of what a gun and a rifle is. They would know and react, this is common sense.

I say the Giants attacked the shield because the order was given to bring down the barrier. Voldemort eventually did this with the Elder Wand, but he didn't always have the wand. So if he ordered all his followers and his army to bring it down it suggest the Giants who are serving him would help in this. As you say if the shields do have a durability limit who better to wear it out then giants swinging trees at it.

BTW 30 seconds prep is 29 seconds longer then needed to cast a spell.

#206 Posted by theONEtaichou (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou:

Ignoring the comment about stinging barbs,

(1) Soldiers aren't expert marksmen, but they are good at least. They have shot quite a few people before, even if their aim is not bulls eye, they do hit. That's enough.

(2)If something happening in the movie didn't happen in books, it did not happen. Because books are written by original author, movie is only approved. So no. She did not block any arrow.

(3)How much damage can the spells cause? Little things like cracking stones and setting desks on fire. Shattering statues, mostly. This doesn't even begin to compare with an explosion.

(4)Yes, you have shields protecting from physical attacks. But how strong? Would they stop a rifle bullet? quotes required for durability.

(5)The shields. The shields could not stop spiders. (Provide proof that spiders are immune to shield charms, not just they're magic. Other spells worked on them.) They couldn't stop giant's club. (They simply ducked and ran around to avoid it.) They could not stop the charging centaurs. (Twice, once umbridge couldn't, and next, they attacked death eaters with arrows and charged directly) They could not stop house elves from stabbing. (No magic is mentioned, they simply ran and stabbed them).

(6)If the shields cannot be used against any of these physical attacks, they are not useful against others, or anything stronger. (Bullet>arrow,stabbing)

Simple enough. Your turn. why would they be used against bullets.

(1) How good are they? Good enough to have "shot quite a few people before, even if their aim is not bulls eye". So they get the benefit of the doubt but not the students fighting them?

(2) You have posted anime scans here, others have posted anime vids... yet you have not questioned that it's not the source material especially since somethings in the anime are different than the manga. Why do YOU not apply this to your very arguments friend? I took it, since from the onset both sides have used the movies/anime as well as the manga/books that we could make arguments from both. You have done the same but now...

(3) I do understand that you don't think HPU wins but there is no reason mate to pull such ridiculous stunts. Forgive me for being a tad harsh... worse is that an explosion would mean nothing to a wizard with the right spell. BTW people can survive an explosion (not all obviously) and explosions can also not shatter statues as well but no one survives an AK spell. So clearly...

(4) I have given my proofs before about shields... you keep saying they would fail. Please prove that they would fail. In fact the HPU makes it clear that shields have always been overcome by stronger magic. Not strength.

(5) Again I ask does the FMA bring magical spiders or magical creatures here as well? Worse is that just because a magical spider/creature got through a shield =/= shields therefore fail against what the FMA bring. Can you prove anything in FMA is equal to or even the 'same' as the magical creatures from HPU? Whose blood do you drink in FMA that can preserve your life like unicorns' blood? Who has house elves that have magical teleportation on the FMA? Which snake can petrify on the FMA? Magical creatures that react differently to magic in HPU doesn't mean FMA can now do the same. If a muggle or even a wizard walked through a shield you could make a case about shields, but magical creatures imbued with their brand of magic (centaurs with divination, house elves that can apparate even in hogwarts (wizards cannot do this) iirc, dragons who can tank multiple stunning spells while wizards get stunned by one) doesn't mean the shields are weak against wizards and muggles especially since FMA bring nothing but muggles. As for stabbing and gnashing Death Eaters can mean a variety of things such as the Death Eaters in question did not utilise shield charms mate...

(6) Sorry mate but I have yet to see your proof that shields cannot be used against physical attacks? Or that bullets would get through? Simple enough mate... you have yet still to prove your case.

forgive me, works has kept me very busy of late hence the very late reply

good day

#207 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (26258 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh.. they keep bumping this for no reason.. @perpetr8rmike:

I doubt they didn't think of arrows as a threat, as they seemed to be wounded by them. And if they underestimate bullets like that.. Whether muggle born or pure, no one is fast enough to react. A fortunate few will get manage to disappart in time, and maybe some stronger can put up better shields.

The giants are literally not mentioned anywhere till the end. There is no reason to assume that they were there before voldemort attacked the shield, the shield in question isn't even explained in books.Even in the movie, only thing we saw attacking was some curses, and some death eaters running. Voldemort attacked, then giants are shown.

@princearagorn1 said:

@theonetaichou:

Ignoring the comment about stinging barbs,

(1) Soldiers aren't expert marksmen, but they are good at least. They have shot quite a few people before, even if their aim is not bulls eye, they do hit. That's enough.

(2)If something happening in the movie didn't happen in books, it did not happen. Because books are written by original author, movie is only approved. So no. She did not block any arrow.

(3)How much damage can the spells cause? Little things like cracking stones and setting desks on fire. Shattering statues, mostly. This doesn't even begin to compare with an explosion.

(4)Yes, you have shields protecting from physical attacks. But how strong? Would they stop a rifle bullet? quotes required for durability.

(5)The shields. The shields could not stop spiders. (Provide proof that spiders are immune to shield charms, not just they're magic. Other spells worked on them.) They couldn't stop giant's club. (They simply ducked and ran around to avoid it.) They could not stop the charging centaurs. (Twice, once umbridge couldn't, and next, they attacked death eaters with arrows and charged directly) They could not stop house elves from stabbing. (No magic is mentioned, they simply ran and stabbed them).

(6)If the shields cannot be used against any of these physical attacks, they are not useful against others, or anything stronger. (Bullet>arrow,stabbing)

Simple enough. Your turn. why would they be used against bullets.

(1) How good are they? Good enough to have "shot quite a few people before, even if their aim is not bulls eye". So they get the benefit of the doubt but not the students fighting them?

(2) You have posted anime scans here, others have posted anime vids... yet you have not questioned that it's not the source material especially since somethings in the anime are different than the manga. Why do YOU not apply this to your very arguments friend? I took it, since from the onset both sides have used the movies/anime as well as the manga/books that we could make arguments from both. You have done the same but now...

(3) I do understand that you don't think HPU wins but there is no reason mate to pull such ridiculous stunts. Forgive me for being a tad harsh... worse is that an explosion would mean nothing to a wizard with the right spell. BTW people can survive an explosion (not all obviously) and explosions can also not shatter statues as well but no one survives an AK spell. So clearly...

(4) I have given my proofs before about shields... you keep saying they would fail. Please prove that they would fail. In fact the HPU makes it clear that shields have always been overcome by stronger magic. Not strength.

(5) Again I ask does the FMA bring magical spiders or magical creatures here as well? Worse is that just because a magical spider/creature got through a shield =/= shields therefore fail against what the FMA bring. Can you prove anything in FMA is equal to or even the 'same' as the magical creatures from HPU? Whose blood do you drink in FMA that can preserve your life like unicorns' blood? Who has house elves that have magical teleportation on the FMA? Which snake can petrify on the FMA? Magical creatures that react differently to magic in HPU doesn't mean FMA can now do the same. If a muggle or even a wizard walked through a shield you could make a case about shields, but magical creatures imbued with their brand of magic (centaurs with divination, house elves that can apparate even in hogwarts (wizards cannot do this) iirc, dragons who can tank multiple stunning spells while wizards get stunned by one) doesn't mean the shields are weak against wizards and muggles especially since FMA bring nothing but muggles. As for stabbing and gnashing Death Eaters can mean a variety of things such as the Death Eaters in question did not utilise shield charms mate...

(6) Sorry mate but I have yet to see your proof that shields cannot be used against physical attacks? Or that bullets would get through? Simple enough mate... you have yet still to prove your case.

forgive me, works has kept me very busy of late hence the very late reply

good day

1.Not benefit of doubt. They have actually fought and shot. Students haven't done anything similar. Students. Soldiers. There is a difference.

2.I'm using clips and images from fma: brotherhood, the anime adaptation accurate to manga. The one which doesn't coincide with manga is fma (original anime). And harry potter movies contradict many things in book.

3. Explosion is aoe type. The person centered doesn't survive. And others get harmed, but can possibly survive. Explosions can shatter statues. Can't believe I've to say this. And you speak of ridiculous stunts..

4. No proofs given about the shields. They weren't useful against arrows, spiders, giants, and stabbing. There is no reason they will stop bullets.Literally none at all. All of these are physical. You're repeating the same thing..

#208 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (2260 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

4. No proofs given about the shields. They weren't useful against arrows, spiders, giants, and stabbing. There is no reason they will stop bullets.Literally none at all. All of these are physical. You're repeating the same thing..

I call your poistions, not you, your poistions two-faced for a reason.

You said once "With thirty seconds prep a A wizard wouldn't die to a bullet"

Now you are saying that a bullet can't be stopped. At all in the HP universe.

Gandalf stomps on all the armies in the world in his Grey human form, right?

#209 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (26258 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: The point is, there is no proof of durability of the shields. And you know how good the wizards are with prep. I also said stronger wizards may have stronger shields in my first point, and I am ready to accept that, but it is not more than a speculation. And my problem is with suddenly going 'shields up and battle is over' without no basis at all, and incredible undermining of the main characters to make it seem like a good fight.

Do you even read the title of thread? Neither gandalf nor all the armies in the world are in the thread.

#210 Posted by theONEtaichou (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

1.Not benefit of doubt. They have actually fought and shot. Students haven't done anything similar. Students. Soldiers. There is a difference.

2.I'm using clips and images from fma: brotherhood, the anime adaptation accurate to manga. The one which doesn't coincide with manga is fma (original anime). And harry potter movies contradict many things in book.

3. Explosion is aoe type. The person centered doesn't survive. And others get harmed, but can possibly survive. Explosions can shatter statues. Can't believe I've to say this. And you speak of ridiculous stunts..

4. No proofs given about the shields. They weren't useful against arrows, spiders, giants, and stabbing. There is no reason they will stop bullets.Literally none at all. All of these are physical. You're repeating the same thing..

1: Many students have been in practice duels, also this here be a battle forum. If the students are not here to fight what are they here for? I do fear you are creating a scenario and reasons that favor ONLY the FMA, in a war I would take the soldiers but here I would take magical wielders especially since they are 7th years... if you are still not convinced that students can fight I do suggest you re-read the Battle of Hogwarts.

2: the HP movies do not contradict, just left out somethings for expediency. Otherwise each book would have to be a 2-3 parter sic. but that is neither here or there... my point was you didn't cry correlation when even those that agreed with you weren't using the source material neither did it behoove you to flag the OP as not clarifying. Just because the FMA Brotherhood follows the manga much closer than FMA still doesn't make it the source material now does it?

3: friend, an explosion is not a "BOOM! nothing's left"... things and people do survive explosions. also it was in lieu to your downplaying of what spells do if they miss their target as if an explosion is all mighty! it's not...

4: I gave proof based on the Forbidden forest Umbridge encounter, some have given proofs based on the battle of Hogwarts, but unless an actual bullet is fired the shield cannot stop it right? I mean the shield they did over Hogwarts could have been brought down by stabbing or arrows... man those wizards be dumb. Firing spell after spell instead of just stabbing the shield. Do forgive me...

But... here is the kicker... you have also FAILED in showing that a bullet will go through! You have used magical creatures... again let me restate, magical creatures... to show the failure of shields when no one on the FMA has magical creatures (worse I have shown that many creatures in HPU can circumvent or react differently to magic). Pretend we are sucky debaters .. just give us your proofs that the shields will not tank a stone, let alone a bullet friend. Not instances where a particular person is not shown throwing a personal shield around themselves.

good day

#211 Posted by JediXMan (32428 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't think the HP universe has an answer to the Homunculi.

Moderator
#212 Posted by theONEtaichou (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedixman said:

Don't think the HP universe has an answer to the Homunculi.

Petrificus Totalus at the very least friend?

#213 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (26258 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou:

1.Wizard dueling was banned. only mention of training in fight is with prof. lock in part 2, and it was nothing more than a joke. The battle of hogwarts doesn't have anything about the student's training.

2. Hp movies do contradict. Fight between voldemort and dumbledore, for example. It's mostly different. Fma brotherhood is correct with the source material (that's the reason many don't like fma, but like fma b).

3. I've yet to see a person walk away from a targeted explosion. Most of the explosions are enough to kill a person, while others around him can walk away with some luck.

4. What proof about forbidden forest encounter? That umbridge was owned by arrows and physically overpowered by some centaurs? Yeah, quite the proof, right. If the shields are so useful, why don't they use it against arrows and stabs and charging horsemen? And if they find that using the shields is useless against these things, which are much weaker than bullets, why will they use it here? If the shields were so good, they would have used it.

5. Explain your 'magical animal' theory. It'll be a good idea to show necessary quotations before I ask, because I'm going to ask when needed.

#214 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (2260 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Right, but you love Gandalf so much that I think you'd say he could probably withstand a Nuke. Why?

#215 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (26258 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Right, but you love Gandalf so much that I think you'd say he could probably withstand a Nuke. Why?

What's with this Gandalf obsession? There is no need to bring him in a thread where he isn't present.

#216 Edited by theONEtaichou (1609 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou:

1.Wizard dueling was banned. only mention of training in fight is with prof. lock in part 2, and it was nothing more than a joke. The battle of hogwarts doesn't have anything about the student's training.

2. Hp movies do contradict.Fight between voldemort and dumbledore, for example. It's mostly different. Fma brotherhood is correct with the source material (that's the reason many don't like fma, but like fma b).

3. I've yet to see a person walk away from a targeted explosion. Most of the explosions are enough to kill a person, while others around him can walk away with some luck.

4. What proof about forbidden forest encounter? That umbridge was owned by arrows and physically overpowered by some centaurs? Yeah, quite the proof, right. If the shields are so useful, why don't they use it against arrows and stabs and charging horsemen? And if they find that using the shields is useless against these things, which are much weaker than bullets, why will they use it here? If the shields were so good, they would have used it.

5. Explain your 'magical animal' theory. It'll be a good idea to show necessary quotations before I ask, because I'm going to ask when needed.

1: and where is the soldier training you bring? The Battle of Hogwarts had children fighting, duelling i.e which is what they will do here in this Battle forum. Why is that so hard to grasp mate? So we are to assume the kids will not know how to fight (even though they did in the Battle of Hogwarts) because there is no explicit place where they are taught to fight, yet the soldiers here also have no explicit place where they are taught to fight but we will give them the benefit of the doubt, after all they are soldiers! Right mate?

2: its different because they left out certain things, if they did things that EXPLICITLY DID NOT occur in the books it would be a contradiction, but leaving out stuff for expediency is not. If Riddle pulled a gun on 'Dore... contradiction... if Riddle does 1 spell instead of 3 expediency. Actually even FMA B follows the source material very closely but not 100% ergo? by your standard even that 1% non-correlation with the manga should invalidate the anime no? or is the prejudice for the anime BECAUSE it's much much closer to the source material (even though its not 100% like the source material) while against the movies for not being as close to the source material?

3: so now it's a targeted explosion? Not just an explosion mate?... friend people do walk away from targeted explosions even in real life, many soldiers/civilians have survived explosions mate. you can google this....

4: Umbridge was not owned by arrows, sorry mate. Was she overwhelmed by their numbers and dragged away after she dropped her wand, yes. Shields are useful but that doesn't mean the wizard in question would use them, or remember to use them... if you have an instance where a shield was thrown up and then overcome by force please show us otherwise relying on circumstantial PIS doesn't truly bode reason nor logic...

5: I have already shown my magical animal theory as you put it mate, read up please! as for quotation, I am certainly not doing going to re-read HP just to summarize known Potter lore, too much work unless I'm pressed for it, but I will leave you with one...

Hermione jumped and returned at once to her star-chart; Harry looked down at his own and

noticed that he had mislabelled Venus as Mars. He bent to correct it.

There was a loud BANG from the grounds. Several people cried ‘Ouch!’ when they poked

themselves in the face with the ends of their telescopes as they hastened to see what was going

on below.

Hagrid’s door had burst open and by the light flooding out of the cabin they saw him quite

clearly a massive figure roaring and brandishing his fists, surrounded by six people, all of whom,

judging by the tiny threads of red light they were casting in his direction, seemed to be

attempting to Stun him.

“No!” cried Hermione.

“My dear!” said Professor Tofty in a scandalised voice. “This is an examination!”

But nobody was paying the slightest attention to their star-charts any more. Jets of red light were

still flying about beside Hagrid’s cabin, yet somehow they seemed to be bouncing off him; he

was still upright and still, as far as Harry could see, fighting. Cries and yells echoed across the

grounds; a man yelled, “Be reasonable, Hagrid!”

Hagrid roared, “Reasonable be damned, yeh won’ take me like this, Dawlish!”

Harry could see the tiny outline of Fang, attempting to defend Hagrid, leaping repeatedly at the

wizards surrounding him until a Stunning Spell caught him and he fell to the ground. Hagrid

gave a howl of fury, lifted the culprit bodily from the ground and threw him; the man flew what

looked like ten feet and did not get up again. Hermione gasped, both hands over her mouth;

Harry looked round at Ron and saw that he, too, was looking scared. None of them had ever seen

Hagrid in a real temper before.

“Look!” squealed Parvati, who was leaning over the parapet and pointing to the foot of the castle

where the front doors had opened again; more light was spilling out on to the dark lawn and a

single long black shadow was now rippling across the lawn.

“Now, really!” said Professor Tofty anxiously. “Only sixteen minutes left, you know!”

But nobody paid him the slightest attention: they were watching the person now sprinting

towards the battle beside Hagrid’s cabin.

“How dare you!” the figure shouted as she ran. “How dare you!”

“It’s McGonagall!” whispered Hermione.

“Leave him alone! Alone, I say!” said Professor McGonagall’s voice through the darkness. “On what grounds are you attacking him? He has done nothing, nothing to warrant such -”

Hermione, Parvati and Lavender all screamed. No fewer than four Stunners had shot from the

figures around the cabin toward Professor McGonagall. Halfway between cabin and castle the

red beams collided with her; for a moment she looked luminous, illuminated by an eerie red

glow, then was lifted right off her feet, landed hard on her back, and moved no more.

“Galloping gargoyles!” shouted Professor Tofty, who seemed to have forgotten the exam

completely. “Not so much as a warning! Outrageous behavior!”

“COWARDS!” bellowed Hagrid, his voice carring clearly to the top of the tower, and several

lights flickered back on inside the castle. “RUDDY COWARDS! HAVE SOME O’ THAT -

AN’ THAT -”

“Oh my —” gasped Hermione.

Hagrid took two massive swipes at his closest attackers; judging by their immediate collapse,

they had been knocked cold. Harry saw Hagrid double over, and thought he had finally been

overcome by a spell. But, on the contrary, next moment Hagrid was standing again with what

appeared to be a sack on his back - then Harry realized that Fang’s limp body was draped around

his shoulders.

“Get him, get him!” screamed Umbridge, but her remaining helper seemed highly reluctant to go

within reach of Hagrid’s fists; indeed, he was backing away so fast he tripped over one of his

unconscious colleagues and fell over. Hagrid had turned and begun to run with Fang still hung

around his neck. Umbridge sent one last Stunning Spell after him but it missed; and Hagrid,

running full-pelt towards the distant gates, disappeared into the darkness.

Harry Potter and the Order of The Phoenix: Chapter 31 - O.W.Ls

You can see there that Hagrid, a half giant tanked many a stun spells, while a normal wizard Mcgonagall got stunned. I leave out things like the basilisk, dragons, unicorn blood etc, I am sure you know enough about their magical abilities and properties...

but alas friend, again I ask for your proof of your own presuppositions that shields would be unable to stop a bullet, please.

good day

#217 Edited by Perpetr8rMike (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

They lost 50 people in the Battle of Hogwarts. Given that there are less then 20 Professors at Hogwarts and Hundreds of Students, not all of which are 7th years. In fact we do see proof of Ginny fighting, she is a 6th year btw, and she was holding her own.

So you have 1000 7th years. you consider them useless. Even though students much younger then then fought off fully trained wizards (Death Eaters and Ministry Officials). But here they are totally useless right?

50 deaths considering they where fighting an army of hundreds of Wizards, Dozens of Giants, Spiders, etc. According to your assumption no student should have survived because none of them should know how to fight at all.

So yes your logic fails.

I didn't see Greed instant hardening his Shield in his first fight with Bradley. Even though he was fast enough do cover his neck before Bradley could strike it later on. So thus Homunculi, following your logic btw, cannot use their powers very quickly. Of course we see this is not true but your logic is right right?

You have not provided proof of physical attacks punching through the shield. you have shown Umbridge is a moron.. Read the Books.. we all know this already. And you have shown surprise or shocking attacks can distract a wizard out of using a personal shield spell. But we have proof that Lucius was able to conjure one to stop a stunner from a fairly close range effectively. So its possible those who got stabbed where just shocked to see House Elves (Whom they consider lower beings and completely stupid) attacking them. Do you think a soldier would react as quickly if suddenly an army of Rabid bunnies attacked them? No they would be in the realm of the WTF.

I have provided proof of physical attacks bouncing off a shield (The death eater flying into the shield at the end of book 6. Flitwick cast this to try and keep out any more death eaters who might try to reinforce the death eaters who had just attacked the school) You have proven some people are idiots, way to go.

There is not just shield spells. The Impediment Spell would stop any forward momentum from the bullets rending them all impotent to do their jobs. Dumbledore could cast this instantly and repeatedly to stop all fire from the FMA side and without moving at all. Dumbledore could also Body Bind anyone like Wraith who tried to blitz them as he does not need to move or say a thing to cast it.

Also in the movies please note that they are constantly fighting at close range. Of about 8-10 feet. The speed shown in these fights are impressive something I doubt you could match with a soldier. They are firing spells that typically hit in a second at 30 feet at a range of 1/3 that. These spells show that they are very fast thinkers and can react to attacks.

Your belief that explosions are the end all of all combat. Kimblee cannot make explosions out of thin air. Hell Mustang can't either he has to direct the fire to the location he wants it. Kimblee touches something and causes an explosion to race toward them, when it hits the target he lets it go off fully. However again this was slow enough for a Chimera and Al to see it coming and was not strong enough to kill the Chimera or do more then blow off Al's legs which are already admitted to being very thing due to constant repairs.

A barrier could stop the explosion racing to them or an Impediment spell could also stop it cold. Even when he had a stone he didn't show any amazing feat such as blowing up half the damn city with one blast or anything of the like. He was better able to control his explosions yes but not amp them beyond reason.

And whats to stop Dumbledore and Voldemort from just running D till they see the better fighters on FMa and then use the Imperio curse to turn people like Armstrong, Mustang, Hawkeye, The Homunculi (Yes they have shown no strong will, save for Greed, Pride, and Wraith.. and even those last two are weaker then Greed) and making them take out their foes. Pride under their control is an instant win for them. Hell Gluttony could at least do major damage before Pride takes him out.

#218 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (26258 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou:

1.Just because this is a battle forum, the students are not getting any more training. We assume the regular versions, which have no training in a battle. They went against some wizards, who don't have any specified training of battle either. They were at least ok in the books, in the movies, they were nothing more than dumb, running head first through the shield and all. But that didn't happen in the books so I'll keep it aside.

2. The movies are quite different from books. If you read the voldemort vs dumbledore fight, you will notice what I am saying. They change what happened entirely, many characters are missing and whatnot. And op mentions that feats of fmab are valid.

3. The point is, the person who is target of the explosion does not survive, and it damages people around heavily, too.

4. She was unable to stop the arrow which hit her hair, and began screaming. Owned.

5. Giants and Dragons are specifically known as their skin protects them from spells that hit them. The creatures which we're talking about, house elves, and centaurs etc. are not. And no creature was ever said to be immune to a shield charm.

6. You are the one saying shields, which cannot be used against arrows and knives can be used to stop bullets. It's you who need to provide proof, that they can.

@perpetr8rmike:

1. They were fighting other wizards, who use curses, dodgeable. Here, they're facing bullets, and none of them have shown reaction time required to react bullets. Surviving against one amateurishly led army of wizards doesn't mean they will survive against an army of trained soldiers with bullets.

2. In his first fight, bradley chopped off his arm, the part that was hardening. They are unable to use regeneration and other abilities simultaneously. And second time, greed had ling with him, who had experience fighting bradley, and is quite fast himself.

3. you have not given quotes of the death eater hitting the shield, or I may have forgotten. I'm ready to accept that they can stop physical attacks. but how strong of a physical attack?

A punch? yes. A man tackling? yes.

A horse/horseman/centaur tackling? No. Not a single one of the death eaters, nor voldemort, nor umbridge put up shields when they charged. What does this say? shield charm isn't strong enough, or they forgot about it, or they thought 'meh, I don't care'

Either of the three scenarios works well for their enemies.

Now weapons:

stabbing via knife: no. But maybe they were surprised.

Arrows: No. again, umbridge and death eaters.

Now, bullets, considering their damage is much more effective than either, the shields are unable to stop them, unless there is proof, or some statement saying what the shields protect from is unrelated to the amount of damage done, by the author in books/interviews.

Explosions stronger than that? out of question.

4. Yes, the spells can do a lot. It's not a matter of what they can, it's a matter of what they will be able to do when actually faced. To be able to hit a bullet with a jinx, they have to be able to react to it first.

5. Both the chimera,al and edward were able to keep up with pride's shadows, them being able to keep up doesn't mean that explosions are slow. (chimera dodged it by small amount, still)

6. The imperio curse is resistable, as you well know. Harry, without any kind of mental training, nearly resisted it his first time (He doesn't have either a very brilliant mind, not very good at controlling it, as we saw it by his disastrous occlumency sessions.) The homuns you mentioned, and most of the mentioned alchemists are fast enough to dodge the fired curses anytime. And even if they get hit, they have the will to keep fighting when badly wounded. Bradley, for example, fought after getting stabbed, shot and nearly drowning. Mustang fought when he was just blinded, and continued his conquest when all his men were taken away. Edward did human transmutation, using his life, with a pole through his stomach. Al gave up his body to fight, and again, to have edward to be able to fight, not to mention trapping himself in with pride. I don't need to go on. Most of the main people around have quite a strong will. And soldiers, if they're from briggs, don't hesistate if their comrade is caught by a spell.

Anything else?

#219 Edited by Walzo (4365 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder how well Hogwarts would do against Hohenheim?

Nah, they'd die.

#220 Posted by Nerx (15351 posts) - - Show Bio

I see voldemort as the last man standing for HP side, he'd be the last to go down

#221 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (26258 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

I see voldemort as the last man standing for HP side, he'd be the last to go down

He won't go down.. He can be reduced to the baby thingy, though.. That counts as a win Imo..

#222 Posted by Nerx (15351 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: the thing is that the OP rigged this in FMA's favor, homunculi are Brotherhood version but allowing aggregate feats is HAX. We are talking of a scar that can lifewipe an entire city/country (whatever ishval is) with one transmutation circle and bradley with a horcrux-like homunculi regen. Nukes, gateways to our world and crazy sh!t.

they can literally travel here and KILL JK rowling (watch conqueror of shamballa)

#223 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Following your logic God could be killed by a bullet because we have no proof be cannot die from a bullet.
Show me 1 example of a shield being pierced by an arrow? You can't. Just because you do not see them blocking arrows does not mean they cannot.

This is like me claiming that since none of the people from FMA have been exposed to magic they all die the moment they are exposed to even a light spell because we do not see that they can survive that.

I have a question for ya.
We see virtually no soldiers score kills on screen in Brotherhood the Brigs guys do but the regular soldiers cannot hit the broad side of a barn. So by your logic since we don't see any but a scant few hitting anything then none of them can shoot.

Your saying that the students should be useless but all the Soldiers who cannot hit the broadside of a barn should now be able to casually shoot people from miles away with their eyes closed.

Yes they did dodge the shadows.. your not doing pride any favors Edward and Al are very agile but not SUPERHUMAN so your saying a normal human could dodge them.

The Imperio curse that Harry questioned but did not break out of? Why do you say Mustang could do better, recall Mustang has never shown any skill in mental resistance or shows of will in this field. Your saying he can simply because you think he can you want him too.

#224 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (26258 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike:

Wizards are not Gods. Nor did I mention God anywhere. Entirely unrelated, derailing and using no limits fallacy. Fail.

"just because they do not does not mean they cannot?" What kind of a logic is this? it's ok if it I was quoting one particular instance, they repeatedly don't use shields throughout the seris. Meaning: The shields are not good enough, or the wizards are too dumb to use it. Whatever the case, they are not miraculously improving the shields, or discover that they should use them here. Not to mention most of them don't even have the reflexes to put up a shield against a rifle fire.

Can't shoot..?

The reason they couldn't get into action was mustang leading the attack. Hawkeye, I think, even said said so..

And what broad side of barn are you mentioning, if you can be more specific.. And no one said anything about shooting from miles away with eyes closed. Keep the unnecessary hyperboles to minimum if convenient.

If you are able to keep up with something that normal humans can't, that makes you superhuman. Not that it makes that thing less powerful.

I'm not saying he has to. First, the curse can be dodged by normal people, I don't see any named character having trouble dodging it. Next, even it hits, it's resistable. If a student with no mental training can, there is no reason someone who's more brilliant and a skilled tactician (a well organised mind) can't. Not to mention they have good amount of willpower. And read again. Harry broke out of it. Twice. First time, he resisted it, on fourth try, he beat it, and once more against tom.

#225 Edited by Perpetr8rMike (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:
By your logic as we never see deatheaters using guns to pierce the shields of Hogwarts at the end of book six or in the 8th movie they must have no effect.
Your stating absence of Proof is Proof and its not. (It is stated that many adult wizards never learned a proper shield charm so it is possible they don't know the spell or are not used to using it.)

My statement is the Soldiers depicted in both FMA and FMAB are poor shots, canon fodder at best. SOME had skills and could land a few kills but we rarely see this they are mostly just there to die.

In a school based battle where hundred of ADULTS who have years of training and practice in magic fought an army of Majority of STUDENTS and only 50 died showed they can handle combat situations with their basic field knowledge of spells.

So Edward and Al are not Superhuman, when they are not superhuman in the show at all. So because they fought people who are Superhuman they are? So Batman is Superhuman, Captain America is Superhuman, Black Widow is Superhuman. Well they are Peak Human but not SUPERHUMAN. Ed and AL are HUMAN so anything they can do can be matched by a skilled human.

I do love how you keep calling Harry a regular student. Harry at this point had been possessed once by Quirell in the first book. Your presuming that that have a superior chance based on what? They have NEVER experienced it, have no idea the effects of the spell (In the class Harry knew what the spell was and was allowed to get ready for it.) Voldemort also forced Harry to bow to him in his match later that year during their duel. So he didn't break it from Voldemort.
But as with the Shield Spell, Prove that these men who have had no training what-so-ever to resist mental attacks can do this. Harry has experience andwas specifically being taught HOW TO BREAK IT.

#226 Edited by ShadoVvlite (1228 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike:

You are depicting a wizard vs wizard, not soldiers vs wizard. A soldier isn't just their to die. They aren't just weak and dumb, they had to have gone training. Compared to the students, I can say, they are smarter and stronger than them.

You cannot compare what a peak human is from comic to manga. For a manga peak human can vary in many, ways as they are not connected.

Why can't FMA characters dodge spells? Are they instantaneous or lock on spells? If not, I don't see why not they can't dodge it.

Sorry if I'm behind, if you already had countered any of these statement. I'm just really lazy right now :/

#227 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@shadovvlite: Its quite alright.
I am depicted that indeed. Senior, skilled Witches and Wizards who are bent on fighting to the death Vs Students who until a few minutes ago where not aware this was gonna go down. They still only lost 50 people. Out of the hundreds of students fighting only 50 people died.

Soldiers are indeed skilled, but in FMA they seem to be there to die. They are often depicted as very stupid or corrupt and kind of just there to die. Brigs Soldiers where the only I can recall that did any real killing in the show and showed true skill and combat prowess the rest of them seemed to be there to die with the big bad soldiers off screen.
I am stating that we use shown feats. The Students have shown they can at least fight superior skilled fighters. Are they other wizards yes but they are better trained and have better knowledge of their abilities. They can still fight using full speed spell work reacting to spells that typically go from cast to strike in a second countering them and then attacking back and forth with dozens of spells casts in about as many seconds.

And the Soldiers (Aside from Brigs) have not really shown even killing regular people onscreen unless it was like a flash back or cutaway or something. Normal Soldiers in FMA and Brotherhood may be soldiers but they have no feats to show them gunning down foes who are not at most unarmed men and woman who are not fighting back.
Now if this was all Brigs Soldiers we have a better discussion as yes I believe many of those would be able to kill several before being taken down.
List of Harry Potter Spells
Read that list, these are the spells they can use. Cast from something like 1700 wizards and witches. Also recall if the same spell is cast on the same target the effect is much more severe. See Snape being KOed and thrown across the room when the trio used a disarming charm on him in book 3.

I am also not saying they cannot dodge spells, I am saying it would be very hard to do so. Some do not cast light and or are not projectile type spells so they cannot be 'dodged' in that manner.

#228 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (5119 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike: Two things I want to point out, first is the fact that Captain America is indeed Superhuman and not peak human and second is that people in the FMA:B universe have been exposed to a form of magic i.e. Alchemy

#229 Posted by Perpetr8rMike (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@redbird3rdboywonder: Thats splitting hairs, he is said to have Peak Human abilities to the maximum of what a human could do (Think of when a person lifts a car off their loved one, he can do this while it takes an extreme situation to do this for a normal person.)

In FMA/-B its not Magic its a form of Science using Tectonic Plate Movement to give them the energy to transmute matter. In their world it is not Magic. In Harry Potter it is, but they have never dealt with true magic. (Although it is said any reasonably advanced science would appear as magic to those with less advanced science.)

#230 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (5119 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike: Captain America is not a peak human, Bats is peak human in every aspect and Captain America is stronger than that by quite a bit, so I don't see that as pak human in the slightest

Alchemy by definition is a combination of science and magic and while it's not magic in the way that the HP universe is magic, it is still magic mixed with science

#231 Posted by FireGamer99 (2 posts) - - Show Bio

@perpetr8rmike:

o.0 FMA is a good show/manga but you lot are insane.

Every Hogwarts student is trained in Alchemy (Not the same type but can understand how the FMA crew is working.)

You also forget that the Harry Poter crew are FAR more versatile then the FMA crew. They can transfigure almost instantly, they can charm objects such as anything the Alchemist create to do what they will (For example should an Alchemist create a tower of fire the Wizards could simply charm the fire to burn the Alchemists) Fire is also btw useless as the first years learn the Fire Freezing charm that makes fire tickle at best.

They also are using 500 Death Eaters who are all well versed in the Three Curses, you know the Instant Death Curse, the Curse that cripples you in unbearable pain, or the one that controls your mind. All these Death Eaters need to do it fire killing curses or Imperio curses (Mind control one) and thin their ranks, any hit by the mind control would turn to attack their former comrades in arms.

Yuor statement of "They have guns therefore they win" is Moot, Guns are a joke to the Wizards so much that it is a running joke in HP to call them Firelegs instead of Firearms because they don't consider them so much as a passing threat. The basic shield spell cast by any student would be 100% bullet proof. A combined shield spell would be very strong capable of giving them a barrier in front of them from projectiles.

As for the Homonculi the ones who are created via magic and thus affected by it.. Yeah Transfiguration or outright destruction is not much of a challenge for experienced seasoned wizards who could either tranfigure them into bones, rocks, etc making them completely moot in this fight. Giant and the like are resistant to damage as well as magic making them virtual tanks the spiders are stupid but their venom is affective against normal soldiers who would likely get wiped out in the opening moments.

And the Centaur, Gaints, Hipogriffs (Which give them immediate Air Superiority, imagine a wizard on each one raining down Death Curses, The basalisk is very poisonous and even withoiut its instant death gaze is strong against physical attacks and magic on the outside (Harry had to stab it from inside its mouth to kill it)

They would also not fight on a line by line set up, thats what Military does. The Wizards would outflank them using their allies as support, circle up and slaughter them in minutes.

I will grant the biggest foes would be the Homonculi but as I said with the number of wizards and witches in this fight transfiguration or simple destruction via multiple death curses is not an uneasy for them to muster as it would take at most three to take down a single one.

So these FMA Stomps things are idiotic and uninformed. Your basing your opinion on Coolness factor over practical abilities.

1. Alchemy is entirely different in the two universes.

2. Don't forget that Mustang's fire will wipe them out before they can utter a word.

3. That would be the biggest threat against the FMA crowd.

4. Even though guns can shoot through a shield, neither can outgoing spells.

5. Humunculi are a collection of human souls. The ghosts around Hogwarts are proof that souls cannot be destroyed simply.

6. The centaurs would be instantly decimated by anything ranged. The hipogriffs would be slaughtered by Lust's Ultimate Spear. Giants are nothing compared to the brute force of Sloth. The basalisk would be a tasty snack for Gluttony. As would many, many other things.

7. The military fights in lines because of morals and because it works. They could easily switch to guerrilla warfare if the need arises.

I haven't mentioned a lot of FMA's heavy hitters. Armstrong, the Elrics, Scar, Hawkeye, Havok, etc. to accommodate your Imperius argument. A single death would probably get the Humunculi under their own control again.

#232 Posted by FireGamer99 (2 posts) - - Show Bio

With no morals holding him back, Edward could instantly turn everyone on HP's side into a philosophers stone. Game Over. No shields, no way of stopping it.
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