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12:04 AM
@mickmackusa No. Moderators at most would just clean up the comments. If they get irritated, they might send a strong worded mod message.
AFAIK, going forward, just ask for cleanup of comments.
 
@Braiam If by "cleanup" you mean delete, then that would be a "lossy" decision. The comments have value, they are just posted in the wrong place on the page.
 
Comments are second class citizens, the can be deleted for any reason, up to and including no reason ;)
If users complain that their comments are being deleted despite being useful, the standard response is: well, post an answer.
 
@eyllanesc Please see the screen captured image in the middle of this post: meta.stackexchange.com/a/296481/352329 You will see that it is Stack Overflow is 100% clear about not posting answers as comments.
 
IMO, that would achieve your objective.
 
@Braiam I know that this can be done. My point is that deleting these comments removes value from the page. This hurts everyone. I just want to prevent the mess. Resolving advice should be posted as an answer. With very few exceptions such as "remove that semicolon" (assuming that the comment is accompanied with a Typo close vote. When people are unsure about the correctness of their advice, then the comment should say: "Does this [the commenter's insight] work properly for your case?"
 
12:12 AM
@mickmackusa Well, doing what you are doing will not achieve the desired effect. My method at least have the less effort from me and utilize the most effective thing that SO have: it's moderation tools.
 
@Braiam Do you think it would be valuable to have a special flag option for comments that providing resolving advice? It happens so frequently (IMO) that it would be better than a custom flag.
then if a user has so many of these types of flags, then moderators will have a metric by which they can use when deciding to issue "a strongly worded warning".
 
@mickmackusa No. Such thing was rejected, several times. See meta.serverfault.com/a/1931/180142
 
@mickmackusa Those posts are recommendations, or do you think everyone follows the goals of the site and even the meta of stackexchange? Those who know them can apply it if they agree or not, there is nothing that forces us to follow that rule.
 
You could also copy the comments to CW answers, cited appropriately, and then flag the comment with the message "I have transferred this answer-as-comment to a CW answer" or similar
 
@mickmackusa So the big question is: what do you propose to avoid it? since pointing out each of the thousands of users (experienced or not) who do this practice does not seem productive. I continually see people give more rules but very rarely do I see concrete proposals.
 
12:15 AM
@Braiam "misguided commentators will be annoyed enough at the "lost" rep" this definitely will not be the case for the ultra-high rep users that I am seeing do this.
 
Let me put it this way @Mick, the way you are doing is very likely to get you in trouble with moderators. Moderators moderate users.
Focus on curating content. Since comments can't be curated, just ask for deletion if they aren't for clarifications or suggesting improvements (or if they are, when they are addressed).
 
if you raise a large number of valid flags about a given issue, it will certainly bring moderator attention to it
 
1:02 AM
This is NOT a delete request. I want to ask this room whether this page should be re-opened (because despite having no coding attempt it is reasonably focused and has enough clarity to answer) or should it be deleted because it is a requirements dump with the sole purpose of getting volunteers to provide a free coding service? stackoverflow.com/q/66331860/2943403
 
@mickmackusa Personally, in my interpretation of the 'rules', that should be reopened.
 
@mickmackusa Without even clicking on the link, none of the points you've mentioned are reasons to close a post. Several of them are reasons to downvote of course. So it's an easy decision to make.
 
> If It would work I wouldn't search for help
 
@mickmackusa Ok, I read the question. Seems like a clear, and focused question. There's probably a target, but the question is on-topic.
 
@Braiam I don't expect a working solution to be shown as effort. A best failure helps to isolate where the OP is stuck and shows effort.
 
1:13 AM
Can we migrate that to Pottery.SE?
 
So are you fellas saying that downvotes should be the only way that we protect SO against help vampirism? Sounds like a rather ineffective tool since users can just keep creating new accounts.
I get about a 50% return on the "answer ransom" technique that I use. stackoverflow.com/q/66344313/2943403
 
Not answering is an effective way to deal with repeated attempts.
 
I mean, El_Vanja comment there point out the issue with the question.
 
@AdrianMole that doesn't work well when other users provide (lower quality) answers.
 
I agree. It's an imperfect Universe.
 
1:16 AM
@Braiam I only partially agree that those requested details actually impact the question.
@AdrianMole My "answer ransom" technique usually loses all leverage once someone else posts a working solution (even if it is a suboptimal solution).
 
@mickmackusa So to clarify, if an OP posts an on-topic question, and someone provides a high-quality answer, the only issue is that the OP got helped without putting in any effort?
 
That's one of the Great Joys of community-driven websites: different people have different approaches.
 
The only thing that gives me pause about that question is "every user should have a similar amount of objects." I'm unclear on what that means: does that mean it should forbid, say, randomly giving all the objects to one user?
 
@cigien I personally hate this, yes. I find it to be an abuse of volunteers and is a sign of disrespect to professionals who otherwise get paid for their expertise.
 
Asking on SO is a privilege, not a right ;)
 
1:20 AM
Indeed. And downvotes will (IIRC) impact on those who post poor questions as much (if not more) than close votes will.
... in terms of question bans, I mean.
 
@mickmackusa But the volunteers who are providing the quality answers don't seem to have an issue with it. They're not being forced to do it, and they don't seem to see it as a sign of disrespect, or abuse. Of course, if you're offended by the lack of effort on the OP's part, go ahead and downvote and/or leave a sharply worded comment.
 
> Answers are the real unit of work in any Q&A system. Therefore, the only logical thing to do is to maximize the happiness and enjoyment of answerers.

If this means aggressively closing unworthy or uninteresting questions, so be it.
Sadly, SO didn't put it that way...
 
@cigien the volunteers who are "giving it away" are dragging down the expected level of effort in the community.
how-to-ask I would find it incredibly rude if a colleague interrupted my workday to ask me to do a complete tutorial (do their job for them) while showing to effort. ...not even so much a link to to simliar scenario.
 
@mickmackusa But that's the thing. I don't care about the level of effort so long as the question is good. If the question is bad, I vote to close. In fact, I vote to close questions where the OP has clearly put in a ton of effort, because the question is bad. I personally focus on the content more than the user.
@mickmackusa Yes, of course I would find it rude if someone interrupted me like that while I was doing my own thing (life, work, whatever). But the time I spend on SE is completely voluntary; nobody is making me do any of it. I don't see that it's a fair comparison.
 
@cigien I can appreciate your stance and don't expect you to change. I feel that showing "effort" is such an amazing low-bar to satisfy, that not including it feels like laziness and an insult to volunteers.
@cigien okay, then I welcome you to request the reopening of stackoverflow.com/q/66331860/2943403 unless you find it to be Unclear
 
1:29 AM
@cigien Technically, the help center tells how askers should approach answerers to not be met with failure. Answerers time is valuable, even if you are volunteering it.
If the site didn't offer you any interesting question, you will leave it. SE doesn't want that.
 
@Braiam I'm not entirely sure what you mean. I'm going to assume that you're not telling me how valuable, or not, my own time is to me. Yes, if there were no interesting questions, I might leave. But there are tons of interesting questions when I go to the main page of the tags I watch. Of course, when I'm in here I see the worst of SO, but that's not entirely representative I feel.
 
This is a first, for me: Someone posting a question as a tag wiki.
 
@mickmackusa Sure, I see your POV. If you feel the OP is being insulting, or lazy, then you should express that in the way you feel most appropriate. I'm just not convinced that closing the question is the best way to do that; especially since there are no shortage of questions that need closing for standard reasons.
 
Perhaps there are some correlations with taxi services versus ride-sharing / non-professional drivers. Thousands of taxi drivers around the world are losing their jobs / wages from Uber and the like undercutting prices. This is GREAT for consumers because it drives prices down. It also lowers experience level of the drivers.
It becomes a "race to be cheapest". Who is willing to do the work for less. This way you lose the professionals that wish for the standard to be kept high.
 
@mickmackusa That's actually a very good analogy! Also, drivers of the full-fare, "Hackney" cabs are well known to be a bunch of cantankerous old farts. :)
 
1:42 AM
Regarding the example of taxi drivers versus uber drivers. There are safety concerns. If you have an infant with your family -- you don't need to have a child seat for your infant in a taxi. With an uber, you must because they are not professional drivers.
I am sure my analogy has holes in it that I am not interested in defending. (I didn't spend long thinking about it)
Anyhow, do we want SO to predominantly supported by users that don't value their own time and don't value the time of others?
 
The analogy is not terrible except for one major flaw. If cab drivers lose their only means of earning a living, they go hungry, their family goes hungry, etc. Comparing that to the satisfaction of users on SO diminishes that very real suffering. I realize I'm saying this in a chat room populated by people who care deeply about the site, but I'm afraid I simply don't think it's a fair comparison. One is a pastime, however invested one might be, and the other is a livelihood.
 
1:59 AM
@cigien The point is that your particular usage of time is irrelevant. The site presumes it valuable anyways and worth protecting at any and every cost.
That you don't find it valuable is not taken into account when SE designed things, they preferred it to treat it as a valuable resource that must not be wasted. That's why you shouldn't apply your particular values on the sites rules: SE values what makes the most of answerers happy.
 
@Braiam This must be why I am so grated by commented answers -- because SE has explicit placeholder text that says not to use comments to provide answers.
 
Jeff quote above is pivotal to understand SE goals. He didn't care that people closed questions for any reason, as long as the answerers were happy and he didn't find it too unpalatable, he was willing to bend the guidance to adapt to them.
@mickmackusa I just find your way of fighting that fight very unoptimal.
 
@Braiam me too
 
2:16 AM
@mickmackusa Then, follow my recommendation: you will get less frustrated and shielded from any kind of complain.
Doing it the way you are doing it is very risky and there will be no payout at the end that you would like.
 
2:35 AM
@AdrianMole Wow, a new low.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:51 AM
@HovercraftFullOfEels can I invite you here? chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/229229/…
 
@mickmackusa Just FYI: Chat has an actual invite feature, which you can use to invite a user to an existing room. You can access the feature from either the popup for the user and selecting "invite this user...", or from the user's chat profile's "general" tab, which has an "invite this user to" button and selection.
 
4:07 AM
I don't see those options, @Makyen. I didn't start the room. Does that matter? An answerer is asking why a page got deleted.
 
@mickmackusa Hmmm... I've always been able to use that feature, regardless of if I was an RO or moderator for any particular room. The only requirements which I'm aware of are that both you and the other user must have access to the room you want to invite them to, you must already be in the room into which you want to invite someone, and the other user must not already be present in the room to which you want to invite them. Let me test...
The option is present for me using a test account with ~20 rep. You should have received an invite to the Ministry.
@mickmackusa For HovercraftFullOfEels, the user page is this one. The "invite this user to" button should be the top one just below the graphs of when the user was present on the left of the page.
 
I don't know why that other room is not one of the invite options. I can invite him to your ministry, but not the room that the other dude set up. @Makyen
I'm not too bothered. I gotta get back to work.
 
4:23 AM
@mickmackusa The button does not appear in the page if the criteria I mentioned above are not met for at least one room (e.g. that you're in one room in which they are not already present). Rooms which don't meet the criteria are not included in the list. However, I'm not immediately seeing a reason that other room would not be included as an option for you to invite Hovercraft to. Perhaps there's an additional criteria that needs to be met.
 
Okay, thanks for the info.
 
4:36 AM
@mickmackusa np. BTW: it's not just your account. That room doesn't appear as an option for my test account to use for inviting Hovercraft either, but it does appear as a room that test account can invite other users into. In other words, it appears to be that Hovercraft can't be invited into that room, at this time.
The only reason I'm aware of which would result in the option to invite Hovercraft into that room not being available is if Hovercraft had already been invited into the room (i.e. there's a currently pending invite for Hovercraft into that room, which had been made by another user).
 
 
2 hours later…
6:23 AM
this is about general computing hardware and software?
 
^ for those who do not want to click to see what it is about.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:21 AM
 
8:42 AM
@mck you added the answer link
 
9:01 AM
@DalijaPrasnikar: I guess that was not a typo; not sure though.
 
@AmitJoshi looks like a tag in title
 
9:58 AM
is this an answer or a collection of comments (which is what I am seeing)?
 
10:14 AM
 
@AmitJoshi You are probably right...
 
11:03 AM
Hi, did they do a survey question this year? Like this one insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2020
 
@SurajRao I would say a collection of comments asking for clarification :)
 
11:23 AM
For the first time, my flag has been declined for this. It was not a link only answer?
 
@Droid As I perceive it, there is an attempt to answer in the link's text.
 
@E_net4wantsmoreflags but on that time it was not well formatted too
 
I mean, unless we are talking about severe formatting issues, that does not make it Not an Answer.
If it is low quality, please downvote.
 
in SOBotics, 50 mins ago, by Shree
@Droid I think you retract your flag.
 
@Droid I've seen that happen quite a lot: It's not actually a link (though it looks like one) per se but a 'local' link to an image.
 
11:32 AM
@Shree I was away
 
@Droid it is only link only if without the link nothing is left that could go as an answer. So [see this blog](https://example.com) is link only where as [Call foo and then bar](https://example.com) is an answer. The latter case applies to that answer you had the declined flag on.
 
A copy of the same answer was mod deleted here. So you are probably not the only one missed it.
 
11:55 AM
Would you say that this question qualifies for both C and C++ tags? I think not. stackoverflow.com/questions/66385259/…
 
12:09 PM
@klutt only if you want to double the downvotes ...
4
 
@rene Now, there's an idea: Allow users one (down) vote per tag on each question. ;-P
 
1:00 PM
Morning
 
@NathanOliver Good morning!
 
 
1 hour later…
2:27 PM
@EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica That's hardly condescending. Just flag as NLN if you want.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:12 PM
 
4:45 PM
Hmmmm ... here's an interesting one .... the tags and suggest that this is on-topic; but I really feel that that's the use of a single CLI program and has nothing to do w/ programming ... should those tags even exist?
 
5:14 PM
 
5:28 PM
 
mck
Jon Skeet cast a close vote!
on the above
 
5:43 PM
@mck Link, please. Interest for Skeet close vote.
 
@Shree there
 
@tink Thanks.
 
@rene Could you change the close reason for this to No MCVE? Or maybe delete it so I can make a new request.
 
@ChristopherMoore a duplicate pointing to a deleted post w/ no answers is not really a good target
 
5:52 PM
@tink Yeah I meant to do it on the other post. The post I requested should be closed for No MCVE
 
Right
@rene heh. The fact that the accepted answer ends in a question speaks volumes =D
 
@ChristopherMoore I'm sorry, you have to wait till I get elected as mod, signed the mod agreement and receive the diamond. All I can do now is move the request to /dev/null and then you have to post a new correct one for that question.
Let me know what you prefer.
2
 
@rene Yeah move it to /dev/null.
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null (on request)
 
@rene I know flower never interested in MOD it never happens :(
 
5:59 PM
;)
 
 
1 hour later…
7:58 PM
My experiment from last week worked only halfway. My new answer got 19 upvotes but the accepted answer I wanted to get downvoted got +4 too. Not so bad, it could have gone worse.
 
8:44 PM
@Dharman how did you control for confirmation bias?
 
9:09 PM
 
 
2 hours later…

« first day (2654 days earlier)      last day (53 days later) » 
https://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570/2021/2/26
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