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1timspalding
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 4:56pm Top

Here's the blog post:
http://www.librarything.com/blog/2008/06/member-home-pages.php

And here's a screencast about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEfJOL4IKo

Note: The first dozen or so messages, reporting slowness, had to do with an error that was swiftly fixed. After that, members report it's fast.

2Noisy
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 3:39pm Top

Like the simplistic layout. Things are taking an inordinate amount of time to load. Getting a fatal error at bottom right:

"Most requested books
Fatal error: Call to undefined function coverImage() in /var/www/html/ajaxinc_home_earlyreviewers.php on line 91"

3timspalding
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 3:27pm Top

You are officially voted off the island!

(Now, you have to say something intelligent in place of the ducks, when I post the real message, which will have NO mention of ducks!)

4DaynaRT
Jun 21, 2008, 3:38pm Top

...still waiting for the modules to finish loading.

5jillmwo
Jun 21, 2008, 3:39pm Top

Tim, it seems to take forever to generate the member profile (mine's been working on it for 3-4 minutes). In the nicest and most affirming way possible, THIS IS NOT GOOD! What is the normal time for generating this page in your experience? Because it's working awfully hard in my instance and nothing is happening. And what happens to all those beautifully crafted profile pages that some of my friends here have built? AAARRRGHHH!

6JacInABook
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 3:43pm Top

Taking a very long time.

Right side is loading until Most Requested Books, then there's a fatal error message as #2

Fatal error: Call to undefined function coverImage() in /var/www/html/ajaxinc_home_earlyreviewers.php on line 91

Left side isn't loading just working hard.

7timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 3:43pm Top

Hey. It will load forever, quite literally, if there's a PHP error, as there is on some of you. (It's not actually loading if that happens.)

I'm fixing it now, don't worry.

8christiguc
Jun 21, 2008, 3:44pm Top

>5 jillmwo: The profile pages are still there. You just don't see your own automatically.

I keep clicking "search" when I mean "talk" but other than that, it looks like it will be good once it loads.

9timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 3:46pm Top

Should be fixed. I loaded jillmwo and it took just a few seconds to load all the pieces. Fundamentally it can't load anything if the page dies completely on a PHP error. That's done now.

10markusnenadovus
Jun 21, 2008, 3:46pm Top

Maybe I haven't comprehended the benefits of this yet, but so far I'm unimpressed and confused. Or maybe I just fell asleep after 5 minutes of waiting!

11Noisy
Jun 21, 2008, 3:47pm Top

The link to "Your profile" is below the tabs at top left. Similarly, there's a link to "Home" on the profile page.

12JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 3:48pm Top

The page loaded as you said it would ... but

On my Zeitgeist I clicked reviews and got this

Warning: include(inc_subnav_profile_new.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /var/www/html/profile_reviews.php on line 61 Warning: include(): Failed opening 'inc_subnav_profile_new.php' for inclusion (include_path='/var/www/html:.:/php/includes') in /var/www/html/profile_reviews.php on line 61 Fatal error: Call to undefined function subnav_profile() in /var/www/html/profile_reviews.php on line 65

Going to go and click on everything else now :)

13jillmwo
Jun 21, 2008, 3:48pm Top

My apologies, Tim, I didn't realize that the system had only had the feature live for 20 minutes when I posted my message on the thread. Forgive me if I sounded grumpy. I've closed the tab in Firefox that was ostensibly loading my member profile and I'll check back on it in an hour or so. (It had spent ten minutes trying to load it).

14christiguc
Jun 21, 2008, 3:49pm Top

>11 Noisy: Or you can click on your name in talk, etc.

Are the "hot" reviews the most recent thumbs?

I think it looks good.

15timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 3:49pm Top

Can members perhaps remember that moving three weeks worth of work from a staging to a live server is not a perfect science, and that I mentioned there might be a few minutes of problems?

As it turned out, the move revealed some missing functions, which, having been cached on the staging server, didn't show up as a problem.

16timspalding
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 3:50pm Top

I should have thought that, if there's an error, it should post something like "it's not really loading, so stop waiting!" ;)

Anyway, I am monitoring all the database requests going through the server, and it's not backed up at all.

17DaynaRT
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 3:52pm Top

Working fine now.

For Connection News - an option to turn off covers? And maybe add the have.gif?

18timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 3:51pm Top

I love that the refresh cleared the author cache, giving us Sexpert Susie Bright and Tag-expert David Weinberger!

19timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 3:52pm Top

>17 DaynaRT:

Not now. Annoying? Doable.

20DaynaRT
Jun 21, 2008, 3:54pm Top

It's not a really big deal. I prefer more visible data than purty pictures, that's all.

21jillmwo
Jun 21, 2008, 3:54pm Top

Mine works now. Thanks, Tim! I feel duly chastened and wish to thank you for working for three solid weeks! Programing is an under-appreciated art because so much of gets done is never seen except in the most surface fashion. We tend to think magic elves do all of the work.

22markusnenadovus
Jun 21, 2008, 3:54pm Top

Tim.. OK, I'm convinced. I'm a LibraryThing addict, so little changes disturb me. But I think I can get used to this for sure! Thanks for the good work.

23klarusu
Jun 21, 2008, 3:56pm Top

I love it! First time I logged on it didn't load but now I've seen it in all it's glory ... I loves it, Precious! But .....

... where for art thou 'Reviews'? I have a nasty error message wherever I try and access them from (i.e. Home or Profile pages).

Aforementioned offending message below (it's in computer language that I no speakey!):

Warning: include(inc_subnav_profile_new.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /var/www/html/profile_reviews.php on line 61 Warning: include(): Failed opening 'inc_subnav_profile_new.php' for inclusion (include_path='/var/www/html:.:/php/includes') in /var/www/html/profile_reviews.php on line 61 Fatal error: Call to undefined function subnav_profile() in /var/www/html/profile_reviews.php on line 65

24Medellia
Jun 21, 2008, 3:56pm Top

Nice work! That looks spiffy.

25Noisy
Jun 21, 2008, 3:59pm Top

Book images seem a trifle small. I think they're needed to break up the text on the page, but as they are, they're just blobs.

Under 'Zeitgeist', it says 'Custom covers: 92'. I haven't uploaded any covers. Does this count custom covers used?

26jillmwo
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 4:01pm Top

Just confirming what klarusu posted above that there seems to be an issue with clicking on the "reviews" link from that page. However, all the other links on that row are working fine.

I will also confirm what Medellia12 said - this actually is pretty spiffy.

27maggie1944
Jun 21, 2008, 4:02pm Top

I am in the "takes awhile to adjust to change" camp. The other home page was so cozy and comfy.... oh, well, I think I see some advantages in this new format. I'll practice and tell you later.

28DanoWins
Jun 21, 2008, 4:03pm Top

OK, I'm sold. The homepage is cool, and it will be useful to me. I admit, I had my doubts :)

Sorry, Tim and the rest of LT staff, if I didn't have the proper faith :( Never been real good with faith!

Good thing I have so few flaws that I can admit them on the off chance that they arise!

29JacInABook
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 4:04pm Top

"reviews" links from just below tabs on profile page where recommendations etc are, on profile page, and home page are giving me the same error message.

But other than that I think it looks great.

30AsYouKnow_Bob
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 4:06pm Top

This'll be fun.

I'm trying to think ahead about how it'll change how I navigate around the site: there are feature on LT that I never use, features I rarely use, features I use frequently; so I look forward to seeing this when it's fully customizable.

Here's a thought that occurs to me when I looked at my own home page:

One thing I think I'd like to see on a home page is room for a wish list. A scratch pad where you can bring "books to look for", to remind myself of books I've run across.

Right now I list them on Amazon, or on BookMooch, or on an old-fashioned piece of paper; parking them on a home page could be very useful.

31DaynaRT
Jun 21, 2008, 4:06pm Top

The Members with your books section asks me how many reviews I want shown.

32saraslibrary
Jun 21, 2008, 4:06pm Top

Love it! I like this little change. Keep it up! :)

33abirdman
Jun 21, 2008, 4:06pm Top

Holy cow, Tim, I thought I was somewhere else! Well done. The new home page looks GREAT! And wonderfully integrates the Local stuff, recent books, similar libraries, comments in Talk, etc. Someone's been thinking about this for awhile, I think.

Now I've got to go back and look around... I was so elated I had to go read the blog about the new feature, and then come here and comment.

Do not make it skinnable! :oP

34timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:10pm Top

>17 DaynaRT:

Dammit Fleela. "It's no big deal"? I didn't see that until after I implemented a no-covers option! :)

>23 klarusu:, 29

Will fix in a sec.

>25 Noisy: Does this count custom covers used?

Yes, unfortunately it can't tell the difference. (Well, it can for some, but some are in doubt.)

35rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 4:12pm Top

Looks great!

BTW, in "on this day," you've got birth and death reversed. (Under "born" it's pulling up people who died on today's date, and vice versa.)

36abbottthomas
Jun 21, 2008, 4:13pm Top

My conservative doubts lasted all of two minutes - I like it! Thank you!

37timspalding
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 4:18pm Top

30: Wish list

Yes, excatly. Once we have collections I think the default is to show what you're currently reading and at least the first X of your wish list.

The Members with your books section asks me how many reviews I want shown.

Nice. Fixed.

The new home page looks GREAT!

Thanks. Really. Chris would be pleased too. That author callout is pure Chris. I was frustrated—why is he fooling around so long on a stupid photo. Oh, that's why... We are, I think, a good McCartney/Lenon team sometimes.

Do not make it skinnable!

No, but the plan is to make each piece be "widgetable," so skinnable in the reverse.

38lisa_marli
Jun 21, 2008, 4:15pm Top

Loaded just fine for me, once I remembered to log in. XD
I am using Firefox 3 on a WXP machine with dsl.
I have one requested change for the default order. I would like to see From the Blogs just below the News on the Right Side. But then again, I'm a Blogger, so I tend to read that kind of stuff more.
Yeah, having them adjustable would be nice, as we all will probably have our own Ideal Order, which will be different depending on our personalities.
Other than that, Fantastic! I would love for that to come up first.
Someday I'm going to have to get ALL the Books on this system, so I don't get recommendations for books I already own. :D

39timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:15pm Top

BTW, in "on this day," you've got birth and death reversed. (Under "born" it's pulling up people who died on today's date, and vice versa.)

Really? Crap. Chris did that. Maybe it's Chris' psychology having trouble with the whole "birth" thing.

40JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 4:19pm Top

One more I've just noticed. On Hot Reviews when it asks how many you would like to show, it will always show 4 whatever number you choose.

41rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 4:21pm Top

Sneaky, sneaky: moving the tabs around at the same time! :) I keep going for the talk tab and missing it! No complaints though: the ordering of the tabs seems more logical this way. Every page but the homepage, though, has a bigger gap between the add books and talk tabs.

42rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 4:22pm Top

39: maybe just a column-labeling mistake?

43Medellia
Jun 21, 2008, 4:22pm Top

#41: Agreed re: tabs. It'll take me a week to get used to it, probably, but the tab order makes sense.

44timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:23pm Top

45nperrin
Jun 21, 2008, 4:23pm Top

The "Recommendations" link in the "Your Zeitgeist" module takes us to conceptdawg's recommendations.

I like it. I don't have a lot of opinions on what should be the default order, but I will be happier when I can move things around/not show some stuff. And especially when my combiner stats show in the zeitgeist module!

46timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:24pm Top

>39 timspalding:

Probably fixable that way, although birth should be on the left either way. I'm going to wait to fix this. I think Chris is going to wake up soon. (No joke. His sleep schedule is totally insane. He's worse than his baby.)

>Tab order

Yeah, I can't get used to it either, but I think it makes a bit more sense. Anyway, it gets Talk, Group and Local out of the boondocks.

47slickdpdx
Jun 21, 2008, 4:26pm Top

Nice job. Loads fast and looks clean without looking too clean like other sites. I've never been a fan of the what random people are adding now field (why would I care?) but I like the others.

48timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:26pm Top

>45 nperrin:

Nice. Thanks. Fixed. Maybe Chris was angling for gifts.

Oh, about Combiners! We can show them in the Zeitgeist, but put some thought into whether you want a module for it, and if so what it would show.

49rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 4:29pm Top

In Your Zeitgeist, CK facts, Venues, Events, and Venue Pics currently point just to CK in general and to LT Local in General. Should these point us to more personalized information about the information we've added to CK and Local?

45: yes, for me too.

50Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 4:29pm Top

Sorry, I'm the grump again.

There is nothing on that page of interest to me plus it's too busy. Normally, if changes don't affect my enjoyment of the site, I don't say anything. That not being the case this time...

At LibraryThing, I use Talk, Profile (Comments and edits to About Me) and My Library. The Talk tab has been moved (again, I'll deal) but more importantly, I have to wait for the Home page to finish before clicking to my Profile (it won't register my click before that) and it's annoying as all get out. (I won't get into how it adds yet another click.)

Why not make the LT home page everyone's home page? Then they can just click on the LT banner and I get my profile tab back.

51nperrin
Jun 21, 2008, 4:30pm Top

48: Actually, it would be cool if the helper log(s) could be a module. You could pick what you wanted to watch, tags, works, authors, disambiguations, etc, and it could come up on the homepage. I would start keeping more of an eye on things again I'm sure. That's obviously something not for mass consumption but if it's not too much trouble to make, it would be pretty awesome.

Okay, now I'll put some thought into whether there is module potential in any other combiner stuff.

52timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:31pm Top

>49 rsterling:

Maybe, I'll ask Chris if this is doable.

53klarusu
Jun 21, 2008, 4:31pm Top

Reviews back! Thanks Tim!

54aviddiva
Jun 21, 2008, 4:32pm Top

I still would like to be able to access my profile in one click from the tabs to get messages etc, instead of having to go to the new home page first. Can the "your profile" tab come back?

55bnielsen
Jun 21, 2008, 4:33pm Top

First impression: Nice. Really nice.

But I'll see if I can find something to improve anyway :-)
The pictures are a bit tiny. Lots of my recently added books haven't been given a cover, so I get a lot of boring default book covers. I clicked the "See the blog on this" and then clicked on
http://www.librarything.com/home/timspalding
the left hand side takes forever to load (i.e. it doesn't load).
Last nitpick: There is no direct link to my wiki page.

56timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:36pm Top

At LibraryThing, I use Talk, Profile (Comments and edits to About Me) and My Library. The Talk tab has been moved (again, I'll deal) but more importantly, I have to wait for the Home page to finish before clicking to my Profile (it won't register my click before that) and it's annoying as all get out. (I won't get into how it adds yet another click.)

Okay, fundamentally this isn't going to be what you want, but let's work on making better.

First, once you can remove elements you'll be able to remove everything but the Talk, if that's what you want.

Then, if you want Your Library, is there any summary or other slice of your library which would be interesting to you. If not recently-added books, how about your recent reviews? Top tags? Recent covers? Work with me here.

Ditto the comments. In theory, the comments could go here too. I want to keep them on the profile—consider me on your side here; some members wanted to remove covers from the profile entirely—but they could also go here. Or a summary of them—from, when, new—could go here.

Work with me here. What can make this better for you?

57timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:36pm Top

>55 bnielsen:

A wiki module is doable. I was thinking I'd parse the RSS that the wiki makes and show recent edits on your watched pages?

58JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 4:39pm Top

Quick work! All the glitches I mentioned have been fixed which is great. I have one observation though, after looking at the page for a while I think that the "featured authors" block looks really squashed up compared to the others which are nicely spaced.

On the whole though I love it.

59timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:40pm Top

From the other thread, Katissima:

"Hey Tim, Great Job! I was completely surprised when I came to LT, and it loaded up my new home page! Overall, I think you did a great job balancing everyone's suggestions. Two things. First, the ? and the edit icons seem to bring up the same thing. Is that intentional? Second, I really personally dislike the "on this day" box. I'd much rather see the blog box be pushed up to that spot, and the "on this day" box be saved for when the modules are selectable. I don't know--I think it sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of the info."

Yes, the ? and the edit bring up the same thing now. I dunno. Most of them seem so self-explanatory. And it saves me from making many more pages, and users from multiple clicking. But it's a little strange for sure.

Thanks for the feedback about what you like. It's going to be editable. But I want to get a sense for the loved and the unloved, so I can set defaults.

60klarusu
Jun 21, 2008, 4:41pm Top

I'd love it if eventually there was the ability to re-order the elements on the page - for example, for me the first thing I want to check is the 'Talk' section so I'd like it higher up, but I'm sure for others it would be different.......

61timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:42pm Top

>60 klarusu:

Yes, there will be. Incidentally, if anyone knows where to "put" this functionality, I'd love to hear. Certainly the edit pencils will have a link to do that. But it needs a main place to live, and I'm all out of ideas.

62LolaWalser
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 4:44pm Top

I'd like to be able to access Profile in one too. Can we have that tab back?

Also, will it be possible to rearrange modules on the home page (sorry if this has been explained before), and maybe suppress some? For instance, MWYB is my fave and right now it's pushed all the way to the bottom. I'd like it way up, especially if accessing Profile is now delayed. On the other hand, I'd get rid of the "now popular" and some other things too if I could (my preference, not a suggestion!)

63rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 4:43pm Top

31, 37: now the edit box for "Members with your books" says "Show how many books?" Shouldn't this be "Show how many members?" Also, nothing changes in the display when you change the number, as far as I can tell.

64timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:45pm Top

>62 LolaWalser:

Profile tab isn't coming back, alas.

Yes, we WILL be able to rearrange them. I'm sending it out into the world without this feature because I want to get good feedback about the default order. Most members won't change the defaults, so they should be as good as possible. Also, I haven't coded the changing yet. And it will be easier to have the changing after the basic features settle down.

I agree on MWYB, but I was outvoted.

65Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 4:46pm Top

>56 timspalding: Let me think about it.

66ktran82
Jun 21, 2008, 4:47pm Top

> 56
I think I'm like Morphidae, and prefer a spare page to one that's too busy. There are a few features on the site I use a lot (all accessible from tabs) and many features on the site I use only rarely. For the latter, I know where they are when I want them. A lot of that will be fixed, I think, when removing elements becomes an option.

I guess my bottom line is that right now, my profile has everything I need, and I'll continue to use that as my "home page" (that's where my primary LT bookmark takes me). What do you think about putting "Your profile" back in the tabs?

67timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:47pm Top

>63 rsterling:

Duh. Sorry. Working on it.

68klarusu
Jun 21, 2008, 4:47pm Top

Would it be intuitive to have an 'Edit Homepage' option, like the 'Edit Profile' where you could access all edits (i.e. re-ordering modules, removing modules, any other edit issues ... etc.)? May be a dumb idea but thought I'd throw it out there!

69rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 4:47pm Top

I know you've said before, in the other threads, that Your Profile is not going back to being a tab, but I'll put my hand up as wanting that too. It's not a big, big deal, but I'd prefer if it was part of the main navigation and not sub-navigation. The reason it's not so much of a problem for me is that my homepage seems to be loading quickly, but if it didn't - as it doesn't seem to do for some people - I'd be annoyed at having to wait to click on my profile. Of course the other option is to bookmark one's profile page in the browser...

I think it would be useful to see "edit account settings" on the homepage and not just on the profile. How about putting both "edit account settings/profile" and "edit homepage layout" in the blue box?

70JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 4:48pm Top

Ok found another in the edit box for "Featured Authors" you get this

"Hot Reviews" picks out some interesting reviews. At present it uses reviews recently given a "thumbs-up" by other members.

Plus the number and length of review.

71FicusFan
Jun 21, 2008, 4:49pm Top



Its nice, but I am in the unhappy camp because of adding extra clicks to get to what I want.

I have to click on Home, then Profile, and then Statistics if I want to see the Series or the Covers page.

If you have a comment with that annoying yellow thingy at the top, you have 2 clicks to get to comments, and you have to wait for it to load.

LT is already very slow in terms of loading from page to page. Isn't adding more layers and more clicks going to make it even slower ?

Also on the connection news, I have information about LT users who aren't on any of my lists (friends of interesting libraries ) at least to my knowledge.

I also don't like that the talk tab has moved.

72timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 4:52pm Top

>68 klarusu:

Yeah, on the upper-right then, maybe.

>70 JacInABook:

Nice catch. No, you can't change the featured authors now.

>69 rsterling:

Quick-loading should be the rule. Last night at least it even loaded quickly for Bluetyson, who's got some 50k books. If I'm not mistaken, the slow-loading was all related to an error that was fixed. Anyway, I'm gonna dig my heels in about the profile page.

73rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 4:53pm Top

71: "Also on the connection news, I have information about LT users who aren't on any of my lists (friends of interesting libraries ) at least to my knowledge."

The new connection news page, unveiled a week or two ago, shows you information for friends and interesting libraries as well as the 50 most similar libraries: the default is all that information together. You can click on those lists to see them separately.

You can also click the edit icon on your homepage to change which of these lists display.

74timspalding
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 4:55pm Top

I have to click on Home, then Profile, and then Statistics if I want to see the Series or the Covers page.

Wait, what? The number of clicks to the Series or Covers page is the same as it was before. Series and Covers are on the same subnav as Home and Profile. No change at all!

Also on the connection news, I have information about LT users who aren't on any of my lists (friends of interesting libraries ) at least to my knowledge.

They're in your 50-similiar-libraries. You can edit the section and not see them.

Taking a ten-minute break.

75snurp
Jun 21, 2008, 4:57pm Top

Why not make the username in the upper-right corner a link to the user's profile (I'm using Greasemonkey to do just that)? This might placate those who are missing the profile tab.

76bnielsen
Jun 21, 2008, 4:58pm Top

>57 timspalding:

It is really a minor nitpick since I have a link to my wiki page from my profile. But a wiki module is probably a good idea if you want more people to use the wiki. I don't even know how many LT'ers use it. (Hmm, a wiki zeitgeist is born?)
At the moment I have to save my edits twice the first time I edit anything after restarting my browser. Maybe that bug should be fixed before pushing wiki pages to new users?

77klarusu
Jun 21, 2008, 4:59pm Top

>68 klarusu:
>Yeah, on the upper-right then, maybe.
This makes sense to me as it's in the same place as the 'Edit Profile' one .... but much makes sense to me that others find baffling!

>Taking a ten-minute break
I don't know, where's the weekend work ethic these days? ;)

78Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 5:00pm Top

>75 snurp: Yes! Please! That would be awesome.

*****

It being understood that the chances of me using the page for anything other than a gateway to my Profile is very low...

I like the Search ability for my own library. How about adding a box to Search for Works in LT?

I'd prefer the Recently Added to be text.

I'd prefer both covers and titles for Recent Recommendations.

I like Popular This Month. I wish there was a way to get a list of most mentioned in Talk for the month. Also, I'd like the option to show the top 25.

Who does Connection news use? Can I make it just friends or people who've I've marked as Interesting Libraries?

From the blogs should be under Announcements.

I like that I could remove Member Recommendations and add more Automatic

I'd like to see something where I can see the top 10/25 books currently being read (sans dates.)

79rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 5:05pm Top

78: "I'd prefer the Recently Added to be text." You can change the settings on that one.

"From the blogs should be under Announcements." I agree, but I'll probably just move it there when they make these pages customizable.

80rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 5:07pm Top

Another suggestion (which may have come up on the previous threads): recent information for tags - and collections, when they come on board. That could include the "Recently tagged" data currently listed on individual tag pages, and similar information for collections, assuming that there will be some core/common collection types like "currently reading".

81BTRIPP
Jun 21, 2008, 5:08pm Top

Re. #50 ...

Morphidae ... you nearly echoed my recent post in the other thread!

Don't like it, don't need it, don't want it.

At least we can still use the old tabs (if in a different screen location) that we're accustomed to!

 

82LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 5:08pm Top

Yeah, I'm with whoever said they used their Profile as the home page, basically. Right now I've bookmarked it at least on this comp, but in general, I'd prefer to have it accessible immediately, somehow--tab, name link, whatever, especially from the catalogue view.

I'm not against the home page at all--looks good!--just that right now I have no use for most of the stuff on it (and the stuff I used was already on the profile).

But I WILL do what I can, once we can edit it, to shoot Stephenie Meyer, Jodi Picoult, Sophie Kinsella and the like to its dark, dark, muddy bottom! :)

83Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 5:09pm Top

Okay, so how do I edit Connections to not show the Top 50 libraries? I can't figure it out.

84FicusFan
Jun 21, 2008, 5:10pm Top


# 74
I have to click on Home, then Profile, and then Statistics if I want to see the Series or the Covers page.

Wait, what? The number of clicks to the Series or Covers page is the same as it was before. Series and Covers are on the same subnav as Home and Profile. No change at all! ?

You're right. But the page is so busy I never saw it. All I saw was Profile and I clicked on it.

I am looking at the editing options now, and was able to get rid of the strangers in my connection list.

I would like to see the comments able to be viewed on this page. Maybe just the new ones ? So comments would still live on the profile page, but the new ones would show up on the home page so you can read it, and once you do it goes off the page so it doesn't get too loaded up ?

85FicusFan
Jun 21, 2008, 5:13pm Top


#83 Okay, so how do I edit Connections to not show the Top 50 libraries? I can't figure it out.

If you move your cursor around the top, above the line where is says Connection News the pencil and the question mark will show up on the right side and you click on the pencil and then use the check boxes to pick what you want and then click save and it will reload.

86timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 5:17pm Top

>75 snurp:

Hmmm.

>76 bnielsen: Wiki double-save

I know. We've really found that one hard to fix.

>78 Morphidae:

I'd prefer the Recently Added to be text.

Click the edit on that section. You have that if you want it.

I'd prefer both covers and titles for Recent Recommendations.

Interesting. Okay, I can do that, I think.

I like Popular This Month. I wish there was a way to get a list of most mentioned in Talk for the month. Also, I'd like the option to show the top 25.

I'm not sure the Talk thing would work. Intesting to try. As far as the top 25, it's tough. The data is so noisy, because so many members add their libraries, not what they bought this week.

I'd like to see something where I can see the top 10/25 books currently being read (sans dates.)

Agreed.

> 83

Click on the edit pencil in that section. Then you'll get options on what to show, including the option to un-click the 50-similars.

> 84

New comments are doable. I'll think about a module.

87bcobb
Jun 21, 2008, 5:18pm Top

Oh, please, tell me this is not a permanent change!

I'm on a slow dial-up connection and having to wait while all the (left-side and lower page stuff) like newly added books by other people, popular additions, hot reviews and the covers and all the other junk that was still just showing the loading circle for more than two minutes.

Hopefully we can opt out and just go with our own stuff (sans cover images) not all the other triviata.

Overall the the page is (still) visually uninspiring, but at least the previous dis-inspiration was only my stuff. I'm not on my regular computer today, but the old page appeared just fine a few hours ago. I want it back!

And if not back, entirely, then please make the new page customizable so I can choose which groups of data I'm interested in seeing. Otherwise the whole page is a form of not-removable-pop-ups.

cobb

88timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 5:21pm Top

>87 bcobb:

It is a permanent change. You will be able to change the modules, so you'll be able to opt-out of whatever you don't like here.

You actually don't need to wait for it to load. It's ajaxed in, and you should be able to click away from it whenever you like. If you're finding that hard, what browser do you have?

but the old page appeared just fine a few hours ago

What page? The profile? It's right there.

89libros
Jun 21, 2008, 5:21pm Top

Echoing Messages #50 & #81

"Don't like it, don't need it, don't want it."

PLEASE PLEASE on the login page add an option to go directly to "Your Library" and bypass "Home"

... go directly to my library, do not go to ...

90timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 5:27pm Top

You're not getting $200.

91LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 5:28pm Top

I edited the MYWB to show 200 members, but it doesn't seem to be listening.

So, we WILL be able to push MYWB up, won't we? If not, this change is really nothing but a major disruption of how I use LT (library-MYWB views and vice versa).

92prosfilaes
Jun 21, 2008, 5:30pm Top

The meaning of unique tags baffled me for a second, until I copied the list out and had wc count them, and it turns out that, yes, I do have more unique tags than books.

93LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 5:31pm Top

Editing MYWB doesn't work, it only shows 100 members.

94timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 5:35pm Top

So, we WILL be able to push MYWB up, won't we?

Yes. The whole thing is modular. What's missing is a user-interface to do it. I was planning to do the most basic thing—a text field, basically. Casey wanted to do it with a drag-and-drop library. So I'm going to give him a week to do it.

Incidentally, I'm interested that you like UWYB, but nothing else. Not connection news? What are you using UWYB for if not to follow up on what people are doing? I mean, you've been around long enough that the results themselves can't be changing very often. I'm interested.

95LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 5:41pm Top

Oh, I look at Connections. But the MYWB is a springboard to all the other members' microcosms. The two features have little in common (Connections is limited, either by my choice, or to the 50 most-similar). No limit to MYWB-microcosm jumping.

96prosfilaes
Jun 21, 2008, 5:43pm Top

I'm unhappy that the Local Events is based around location instead of favorited bookplaces. As a user of public transportation, I can get to anywhere in Boston easier than the place it's listing for me.

97timspalding
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 5:47pm Top

>95 LolaWalser:

Would you want the option to see results from more similar libraries? I was also thinking it could track the top 1000 UWYB and alert you to new ones.

>96 prosfilaes:

That's a good point. Let's see if others say it too, but I think we might want to make that a toggle. I wouldn't make it the default because favoriting is commonly used to indicate your love for a place (eg., I have favorited bookstores in Ann Arbor, Paris and Istanbul!), not what you're using it for.

98Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 5:47pm Top

Re Talk tab move:

Wouldn't it make more sense to put Talk to the right because when you are in a thread and click (back to top) it is natural to just go up a little way to click on the tab right above - which is now Search. Now I have to slide twice with my mouse to get to the Talk tab. It was one thing to move it over ONE tab. But now it's to the left of center which doesn't make sense ergonomically when you have to click Talk a lot.

99libros
Jun 21, 2008, 5:49pm Top

Message 90: timspalding
You're not getting $200.

OK no $ for me. I'd PAY $20 to have option of going directly to my library from the login page.

If bribes won't work, please add the value "0" to all pick lists so that we can delete as much noise from the "must be viewed home page" until such time as we can delete any and all modules.

If I must see the home page could you please fix this on mine? Thanks.

"Warning: imagecreatefromjpeg(): gd-jpeg: JPEG library reports unrecoverable error: in /var/www/html/inc_photo_upload.php on line 270 Warning: imagecreatefromjpeg(): 'picsizes/77/50/0dfd3046f8f23d1c1afa05e221880dc4.JPG' is not a valid JPEG file in /var/www/html/inc_photo_upload.php on line 270 Warning: imagecopyresampled(): supplied argument is not a valid Image resource in /var/www/html/inc_photo_upload.php on line 282"

100rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 5:50pm Top

typo in edit box for "Popular this month": "The list avoid perennial favorites"

101JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 5:51pm Top

I was wondering why in the Talk block there isn't a link for starred posts and on the Early Reviewers block that the flags for "countries eligible" this month aren't being shown.

I really like the books recently added section, after hitting refresh a few times it really brings home how many people use LT, and I've already caught a few books that looked familiar to me that I'd forgotten about and they are now going on my wish list.

Local though looks a little lost, but I think that's because there aren't many events in my area, or they haven't been added.

102timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 5:53pm Top

By the way, check out the difference between the tabs on
http://www.librarything.com/talk
and
http://www.librarything.com/home/timspalding

You'll notice the Talk tab has some space to the left of it. I like it that way, but others don't. What do people think?

103rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 5:55pm Top

In Recent recommendations, is it possible to set it so that if you set either Automatic or Member to zero, the other one takes up both columns?

104timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 5:55pm Top

>101 JacInABook:

Ah, starred. I forgot that. I'll look into it.

I really like the books recently added section

Glad to hear it.

countries eligible

Ah. Hmm...

105Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 5:56pm Top

If it is staying put, PLEASE leave the space. It's placement is causing enough grief as it is. To make it "disappear" in the center would be... ugh.

106timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 5:57pm Top

>103 rsterling:

It does. Maybe the title just isn't long enough?

107LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 5:57pm Top

#97

Nice, but not necessary. (I'm also concerned about loading times if Connections becomes very crowded.) It's difficult to explain briefly, but the MYWB is more Gestalt-y; Connections gives you individual books, which is fine and has its own uses, but for a feeling of a library or library-worlds, nothing beats (or replaces) that whole-view. And, hopping between MYWBs is the richest way of finding interesting libraries.

Problem report: I edited the Zeitgeist module (clicked everything off), but the edit doesn't seem to be sticking. And I still can't change (increase) the MYWB member number.

108timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 5:57pm Top

>105 Morphidae:

Which space?

109Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 5:58pm Top

>108 timspalding: This space.

"You'll notice the Talk tab has some space to the left of it. I like it that way, but others don't. What do people think?"

110FicusFan
Jun 21, 2008, 5:59pm Top



I was working with the local stuff (adding favorites) and I have a couple of local events that don't show up in the Home page ?

I edited the home page part to increase the miles it searched, and it brought in the Boston stuff, but there is an event in Milford, NH that is closer to me in Nashua, and it doesn't show up on the home page ?

I would also like to see my favorite bookstores and festivals and others show up on my home page.

111timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 5:59pm Top

Sorry. Space-out.

112rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 6:00pm Top

106. Mine stop in the middle, with "..." at the end of long titles. (I set Member Recs to 0, and expanded Automatic to 8.) What I was thinking about was actually more like having them flow into 2 columns, like the Connection News does. I don't know how complicated this would be to code, though.

113VisibleGhost
Jun 21, 2008, 6:00pm Top

"I like Popular This Month. I wish there was a way to get a list of most mentioned in Talk for the month. "

The game threads skew this information in negative way. Your books in Talk could be a very useful feature but I've abandoned using it. It's disappointing seeing there are seven conversations about a book and everyone one of them is just a title inserted in a game thread.

114prosfilaes
Jun 21, 2008, 6:00pm Top

Recent Recommendations is linked to http://athena.librarything.com/profile/prosfilaes/recommendations, not http://www.librarything.com/profile/prosfilaes/recommendations , which brings up a password box/error message.

115timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 6:01pm Top

>110 FicusFan:

I think it says that your local takes 10 mins to update. If it doesn't update after that, let me (Chris) know.

116Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 6:01pm Top

117mckait
Jun 21, 2008, 6:01pm Top

I have already wish listed 4 books that came up under Recently Added by Other Members

perhaps it is evil~

118timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 6:05pm Top

>114 prosfilaes:

Fixed. Thanks.

>It's disappointing seeing there are seven conversations about a book and everyone one of them is just a title inserted in a game thread.

Yeah, I agree.

>112 rsterling:

No, it would be fine. It's actually going as wide as it can, given the ...

119parelle
Jun 21, 2008, 6:07pm Top

I'd love for the Zeitgeist block to be up higher. It's such a nice little summary of my account, I'd like others to see it.

120timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 6:09pm Top

>119 parelle:

Well, nobody else can see it. You want it on your profile.

121JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 6:20pm Top

I set my Local Location, radius and checked the box to use it as my profile address. It worked, showed up on my profile and when I clicked it took me to Birmingham, UK with a 5 m radius at Local.

Now it's just showing up as B, 5 km in the Local Edit on the Home page and as my location on my profile. Clicking it takes me to a blank local page. Though the event for Birmingham is still showing on my Home page.

122pivox
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 5:28am Top

HI there, don't have time right now to read through all the 120 poss here. However I didn't want to wait to give my thumbs up for this really nice feature. At first I was afraid we had lost the profile page, but it's still there, so it's just all win :-)
Really, I'm sure there is still much you can do with this home page but that was more or less what I was wishing for on another thread, although I was talking there of having something like this on the starting page of LT.

Anyway, really cool, keep going like this :-)

I guess this has been talked about in the 120 posts I haven't read, I think it would be really nice to be able to move the differen parts around. And have some more ways of customizing the page (for exemple, how about being able to choose to display "Recelntly read" instead of "recently added")

123rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 6:27pm Top

"nobody else can see it" - does this need to be emphasized more? It's not that obvious in the blog posting - although a few paragraphs down it does say: "Normally you can't see other member's Home pages..." I can imagine that users who didn't follow the development of the homepage might come to LT today and think that this was their new public profile.

124rsterling
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 6:29pm Top

122 this is the starting page of LT when you're logged in now. And yes (to save you reading all those posts!), moving around and removing parts is in the works, per Tim.

125abbottthomas
Jun 21, 2008, 6:29pm Top

>96 prosfilaes: >97 timspalding:

Local events in Surrey are few, and I probably know about them. I'd love to have prompts for upcoming events in central London, which is where I go for "culture".

126bcobb
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 6:37pm Top

Oh, feh, I wrote a long list and somehow lost it just as I was proofing. (Not LT problem, just a different keyboard/computer issue.)

I can't see where to eliminate the features I don't want. Is there an X box I'm missing?

What I'd get rid of would be:

My stuff: covers in its entirety, my recent adds list, the recommendations area and my zeitgeist;

Other members stuff: Connections (I'm puzzled since nothing in connections seems to relate to my library) and the recently added books section;

Community features: ER, Local, hot reviews, popular books, featured LT author

And on the talk/groups area, I prefer to just see a list of my watched groups, not the individual threads all in a mish-mosh.

And the "on this date thing" is silly. The sort of canned junky filler you see throw-away shopping rags. Ugh.

The problem with a slow connection is that as long as the red (orange?) LOADING box on the upper right is highlighted I can't do anything but wait. And it doesn't settle down until a lot of the little loading spirals have advanced enough. What is ajaxed?

The old page, which I had bookmarked, was very simple (not my profile and definitely not my catalogue which takes forever to laod since it's so large). It was so simple it was unmemorable, but I know it had a list of my watched groups along the right hand. One of the things I utterly adored about LT was how fast it loaded and that I could get busy without so much tedious waiting.

Please don't forget that many people use slow connections (and small screens) and are interested in LT for non-participatory, non-community reasons.

Today I am using (small, local) dial-up with XP Pro, with IE, but I don't know what security programs may be running in the background as this is my husband's computer.

I know you have spent a lot of resources on this project, but don't let the gee-whiz we can add this aspect get in the way of clean and easy (or at least easy to de-configure down) pages. Any every new feature has its bug-swatting curve. It seems like new stuff is embarked upon, then left partially resolved while new-er features are created. Please figure out a way to allow members who like this stuff to see, but those of us with other goals can chop it down to manageable size.

Maybe a "no thanks" button like you have on the new rendition of recomandations would work here.

cobb

127FicusFan
Jun 21, 2008, 6:36pm Top



The local event in Milford still hasn't shown up on my homepage, though it is listed as an event on the top of my local page.

I thought maybe the person who added the event might have put in the wrong zip ? So I went back into local to take a closer look at it, and it says the event date was June 20, 2008 - which was yesterday. So it probably didn't add to the home page correctly, but why is it still listed as an upcoming event on the top of my local page ?

128rsterling
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 6:39pm Top

126: "I can't see where to eliminate the features I don't want."
This is coming, but not implemented yet.

Maybe there's a need for a low-graphics/text-only option (something one could set as default in account settings)? That might help with people on slow connections -- and isn't that also common for web accessibility reasons?

129abbottthomas
Jun 21, 2008, 6:40pm Top

I've scanned the missing covers for my recently added books but they do not appear on the home page list (yet?) - Will they?

130timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 6:40pm Top

>127 FicusFan:

I'm leaving Local questions for Chris. Chris?

>128 rsterling:

Does anyone else have problems being unable to move off the page while the red thing is on? Ajax is the technology being used there. It's "asynchronous." It should allow you to leave while it's loading.

I don't know what page you were using. Maybe the groups home page?

131wordweaver
Jun 21, 2008, 6:56pm Top

My take: it's an interesting idea, but I was quite content using my profile as my 'home' page for LibraryThing, and this new home page so far doesn't offer any incentive for me to change my habits.

I would definitely put MWYB in a more visible position. Since Tim asked another user earlier, the reason I have more/just as much use for MWYB compared to connection news is that I use MWYB to browse people's libraries, which I find more useful than looking at their recently added books if I'm only interested in part of a member's library. With connection news, you might consider changing the default to just showing connections with friends, interesting libraries, and the watchlist - the first thing I did to my home page was to stop connection news showing books from the Top 50 similar libraries.

I have no use for most of the global information: "Popular this Month" and "Recently Added by Other Members" might be interesting statistically, but they aren't relevant to me (however, I'm much more tolerant of "Recently Added" than the former) and this is also true of "Hot Reviews". "On this day" would be much more interesting if it included book-related events other than just the birth and death of authors.

132libros
Jun 21, 2008, 6:58pm Top

Message 126: bcobb
...
Please don't forget that many people ... are interested in LT for non-participatory, non-community reasons.
==============
Yes! Some of us want to be able to quickly view our data and have no use for the social junk on the home page.

Forced viewing of home page to get to my library or profile tells me that LT has gone over to the dark side and now "pushes" social over data. Sigh. Guess I'd better get to work on my Koha installation so that I'll have an alternative way of accessing my data without the now forced "socialiation" of LT.

133bcobb
Jun 21, 2008, 6:59pm Top

>130 timspalding: yes, I think I was choosing the groups home page, which is where I was this morning and thought I was returning to.

Also I have discovered (since I was so long writing my comments above, it loaded enough to see it) that now I do have the pencil icon in many of these categories. I have systematically gone to each and chosen to reduce the amount of data shown. In all cases, why not have a zero value as the lowest possible, instead of 2 or 3 as the smallest? Then at least even if we had the long string of boxes, there'd be no delay while it loaded the background data. That seems like the simplest, fastest fix for those of us who need speed, while allowing members who choose a more full data set to have what they like.

>128 rsterling: I agree! I am always pleased to see the option for slow connections - and very frustrated when it's not there when it ought to be. I realize I may be missing things that others can see, but that's much less frustrating than have everything seize up just because some web-designer threw everything available on to the page. In my professional life I advise clients on marketing strategy, and always, always, insist they have such an option on their websites. I know how often my response to flash, video and other heavy apps is my (nearly worn out) BACK button. You don't get my eyeballs if your site is too heavy.

cobb

134avaland
Jun 21, 2008, 6:59pm Top

Ok, I'm rewriting this message now that I've simmered down a little:-)

On the Left: I like most of the lefthand side. Personally, I think the recommendations should drop lower (I'm not terribly interested in that) not sure I know many who follow those. . . (recommendations should be based on what I'm reading in 2008 not what's in my library from the 1970s...I've read Coma anyways...and 4 of the others. Ages ago. Sigh.) I suppose that is another issue entirely.

I like the announcements on the right but that's about it. I'm not interested in what's popular, what's hot (where are those statistics coming from?) and what the early reviewers are scrambling to get their hands on. As far as I'm concerned, it's equivalent to advertising.

I suppose I could learn to ignore the right.

Still thinking...

135timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 6:59pm Top

>128 rsterling: Size/speed

Using my home page as typical the page weighs in at 27k, rising to 60k after all the content is Ajaxed in although you should see pieces before you see all—which makes it seem faster—and you should be able to leave during load.

Some home-page comparisons (signed-in, where possible, which obviously varies based on what you're doing):

Goodreads 390k
Amazon 244k
Yahoo 122k (plus some Flash objects)
Facebook 112k
New York Times 105k
YouTube 68k
Shelfari 60k
Abebooks 47k

That leaves:

Del.icio.us 22k
Google 6k

136monarchi
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 7:03pm Top

Oooh, pretty! Even though I knew this was coming, it was like Christmas in June when I opened up my LT account this afternoon. That said...some comments:

>68 klarusu: Could we have an "Edit Homepage" link somewhere in the top module (which I imagine will remain static, since it has no pencil attached to it.)

>78 Morphidae: I'd also like an option whether to search my library or all LT. I actually wasn't sure which one this was at first. Maybe it needs to say "Search your library" instead of just "Search." There's certainly room.

>78 Morphidae:,79 Agreed. Actually, I'd like the right-hand column to go something like this:
Announcements
From the blogs
Featured Authors (otherwise they're not really 'featured' way down at the bottom of the page)
Recently Added by Other Members
Popular this Month
On this day
Hot Reviews
Early Reviewers

>84 FicusFan: I agree, new comments would be great to see on the homepage (at the very least a summary: who it's from and the first few words, or so.)

>96 prosfilaes: Yes, please. Could we have an option to toggle between events based on our locations and events based on our favorites?

>101 JacInABook: I'd like to see starred posts as well, but that's low on my list of wants.

Also, Tim, thanks for making the member picture link to the profile!

Finally: can you change the "Your Library" tab back to "Library?" It's inaccurate when you click on someone else's library and that tab lights up.

edited for clarity

137Mr.Durick
Jun 21, 2008, 7:04pm Top

I'm not against the new home page, although I don't think I will get much use out of it.

I really want the profile tab back. I have reason (I don't know how weighty) to go there fairly often.

Robert

138rsterling
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 7:21pm Top

On default ordering, etc.: The features I like the best, and will move higher up when possible, are those that extend the features on the profile and those that show me areas of the site I used frequently. So, my favorite modules are, in rough order: MWYB, Connections, Recommendations (the order of the 1st three is interchangeable for me), Talk, and Local

131 and others: I will probably also move MWYB higher up, and I use it like others do: as a short-cut to browsing others' libraries. On connection news, I like it the way it is, since we can easily change our own defaults. I mostly use this for 50 similar libraries (and to some extent watchlist), and I wouldn't want it to default to connection categories I don't use (friends, interesting libraries); I like the fact that it's aggregated at first, but that we can easily select which of these to make default on the homepage.

(PS: My comments here are in response to the blog post's request for members to say what they think the defaults should be, but fully understanding that this will also be customizable soon.)

139timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 7:06pm Top

I'm not sure how many times I need to say that the order will be changeable. At some point, if you didn't see it in the ten places I said it, I'm not sure why I'm putting it here.

On the forced socialization of LT, the previous profile page also had connections forced on you and so forth. If you do not want to participate, fine. That you're forced to accept a home page that is by all standards quite small, is editable, will be more editable and that puts links to your library in the first and second spot, well, I don't know what to do. The alternative is, I think, Koha. If setting up—and populating!—an industry grade Integrated Library System is preferable to a 60k page you can skip by and—incidentally—avoid through bookmarks, well, words fail.

140diganwhiskey
Jun 21, 2008, 7:13pm Top

If it ain't broke. . .

Can I opt out of the "new, improved" version?

141avaland
Jun 21, 2008, 7:16pm Top

>139 timspalding:. ok, understand order will be changeable. I for one am trying to keep track of information on three places at once (blog, new "home" page, and here).

>I agree with 137, I'd like to still have the profile tab back. After visiting someone else's profile page to leave a message, I now have to do two steps to get back to my profile page (where I really live; where my current and recent reading and messages are!).

I need more time to think.

142rsterling
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 7:18pm Top

139 - A lot of people like it, and a lot of people wanted some kind of change to the homepage to make it more dynamic. I think you've done a great job trying to balance different kinds of wants for the new homepage.

As you say, it's easy to get to the profile and other pages, to bookmark them, etc.

143libros
Jun 21, 2008, 7:21pm Top

Message 139: timspalding

"That you're forced to accept a home page that ... puts links to your library in the first and second spot, well, I don't know what to do.
=====================

Add the Profile tab back to the My Library page so that I don't have to waste time getting to My Favorite Authors on my profile page by first loading the home page.

My complaints are not with the size, load time, not-yet-there ability to edit of the home page -- it's a navigational design annoyance to have to display a page that has no content I want in order to get to a page that does. Hmm, reminds me of some ILSs I've known and hated.

Koha 3.0 on Linux is a sweetheart! Populating the biblios database not a problem -- download LoC biblios to local drive then batch load. Don't need circ so don't need items.

144rbott
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 7:40pm Top

In edit, you allow a zero for the number of Recent Recommomendations, which is good, but a minimum of 2 or 3 for Connection News and all of the junk things on the right side of the page. Why is this? I am with others here in that I don't want to see a review of a book I will never read or own.
I want the option to remove the subjects that I don't want to appear on this page.

Sorry, this was brought up while I was entering this.
Had not read them yet.

145rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 7:25pm Top

"Forced viewing of home page to get to my library or profile" - ?? This new page is simply replacing the old static homepage at www.librarything.com. You always still had to click from that old page to get to the profile or your library. You can go directly to your profile at www.librarything.com/profile/yourusername or your catalog at www.librarything.com/catalog/yourusername, just as before.

146FicusFan
Jun 21, 2008, 7:28pm Top



I was unhappy, but now that I have done some customizing, and had time to live with it, I like it.

I think being able to move areas around would be cool too. Just please don't decide to move MWYB up for everyone. I never use it (don't even understand why you would want to look at your books in someone else's library??), and it looks horrible.

The home page loads faster too.

I would like to see a new comment section, and the ability to have favorited locals and events from the Local page show up in the local events section.

Also on the recommendations lists, there are no authors listed for the books. I know this is probably for space reasons, but it is like going out half-dressed, and I would really like to see authors. A title may mean nothing, but I might want to check it out if it was by a favorite or interesting author.

147rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 7:28pm Top

"Add the Profile tab back to the My Library page so that I don't have to waste time getting to My Favorite Authors on my profile page by first loading the home page."
Meekly agreeing, sort of: that's why I think having the sub-nav in the catalog too would be helpful, as I've said on another thread. But, I don't know, that might take too much up space and thus be unpopular with other users.

148bcobb
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 7:32pm Top

OK,

I think I've skinnyed up the options as much as possible by selecting the smallest display option. (Still want to see Zero as an option though!) LAter tonight, I will 86 my watched groups and kill off the recommendations, and the one or two interesting libraries I have noted in order to further reduce the data onslaught.

But most of the green-headed stuff on the right side has no pencil option that I can see (ER, hist. trivia box, etc.) ... or am I just not finished loading, yet?
I see your point about this being a light-ish site but ya know what, of the sites you listed:

Goodreads 390k
Amazon 244k
Yahoo 122k (plus some Flash objects)
Facebook 112k
New York Times 105k
YouTube 68k
Shelfari 60k
Abebooks 47k
Del.icio.us 22k
Google 6k


The ONLY one I ever go to is Google because the others are way, way too heavy for my connection. I have been to Amazon only half a dozen times, in the last few years, because it is terrible. (And I live in fear of accidentally trying to connect from LT to Amazon's main site when searching for a book.) I usually go to the library, just to use their computers as there is no other way for me to view Amazon. I used to be an active buyer with them, but for the last several years I haven't ordered anything from them because of loading issues. It's just too frustrating to try and navigate through the pages, now.

I think it's really hard for users with fast connections to fully understand the limitations of dial-up. Back when everybody had dial-up, most websites' pages were much smaller so it probably doesn't seem like such a big deal to users who've progressed to high-speed connections. But it's huge barrier to those of us who are still using connections that are lucky to hit 22kbs, on a good day. (For awhile I used dual modems and two ganged phone lines that 9.6kbs each.) That's why it is so important for sites to have a text-only, or at least a dial-up version of their site. Without it, you are simply ignoring a many people who would be interested in your business.

And I do hear that moving stuff around on the page will be an option later on.

cobb

149BookishRuth
Jun 21, 2008, 7:33pm Top

I like it a lot, except for the lack of the Profile tab. That was usually the first thing I clicked on after logging on.

150lilithcat
Jun 21, 2008, 7:38pm Top

How funny. I never even noticed the "Home" tab! Just noticed that the "Talk" tab had been moved. I'd probably still be in the dark if I hadn't seen this thread!

Well, my two main concerns have been answered already (ability to move the various blocks, and to see the "recently added" in text, rather than images), so I guess I don't have anything to say, except that it's a much better layout than originally designed.

I don't know whether or not I'll use this. I pretty much have the pages I usually go to (my profile, my catalogue and the time-sink called Talk) bookmarked.

(Irrelevant aside: why are more people calling Members With Your Books MYWB as opposed to MWYB?)

151JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 7:44pm Top

Talk - When I click the red cross on a thread in the Talk block the thread comes back on the next refresh. I wondered if it was site wide so went to the talk page and tried. It appears to be only if you delete a thread on the Home Page.

As to the Profile Tab, the only reason I miss it is when I go to my library or someone else's or their profile and have to come back to my own profile through the Home Page. I'm sure it's something I'll get used to if I have to but maybe a sub nav profile link would be more helpful.

For comments I have them delivered to my email anyway. I read them there or I can click the link included which takes me straight to the comment on my profile. So having new comments on the home page isn't something that would interest me, but that's just me :)

152conceptDawg
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 7:45pm Top

127: I'll have to check on why it's not finding events in certain towns towns near you. It looks like it is a problem with the distance filtering computations and not the actual data.

As far as including your favorited events and venues in the listing (regardless of your their location), that was something that I had already thought of but didn't quite have the time to implement it before today.

Oh...and just so that it might be easier to find:
The module layout WILL BE CUSTOMIZABLE soon

We're working on a good system to do that. In the meantime we'd also like to get feedback on the best selection and ordering for the DEFAULT layout of the modules. Remember, that isn't necessarily how YOU use the page for your idiosyncratic LT browsing (hey, we're all unique snowflakes here), but how it would best be presented to the average user.

153stephmo
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 8:01pm Top

Considering that I can get to the Profile page and bookmark it forever and ever and ever, I'm not sure what this need for a profile tab is...and then there's that immediate link to your profile on the home page that you don't have to wait for the home page to load in order to click...

I'm enjoying the new page - I haven't had a great deal of time to play with much of it, but I enjoy seeing all of the recommendations from last week make it into the new page.

Mostly, I enjoy seeing much of what LibraryThing promises and has improved over the last year actually easy to find and accessible! This is everything that people have been contributing without it being some secretive corner one has to go looking for in a long round-about way. I'm also hoping that all of this will encourage people to contribute more!

More amazingly, I was shocked to see how fast a book I entered completely disappeared off the global book entry list - we're going to hit 32 million a lot sooner than I would have ever thought.

154stephmo
Jun 21, 2008, 7:47pm Top

>152 conceptDawg:

You are not your khakis.

155VictoriaPL
Jun 21, 2008, 7:54pm Top

How soon is soon?

156mymia
Jun 21, 2008, 7:57pm Top

I absolutely love it! This is so much better than what was offered before. I could get lost in all this info for hours. THANKS for all your work on this.

157avaland
Jun 21, 2008, 7:59pm Top

ok, I've had some time to play with it. Like others have mentioned, I'd like to have the option of "O" for the fields on the right hand side. I'd love to be able to opt out of the early reviewer field. If the featured author thing is random-generated, i suppose that's ok. I can learn to ignore it (I doubt whether I would check out an author through these means). However, I like the LT announcements and blog highlights fields.

As I noted before, my profile page is really 'home base' to me. That's where my messages are.

158conceptDawg
Jun 21, 2008, 8:00pm Top

155: I think that Casey wanted to work on a nice drag-and-drop layout manager this week.

159ktran82
Jun 21, 2008, 8:00pm Top

>153 stephmo:

As far as I can tell you can bookmark any page in LT and get back to it forever and ever and ever, but that's not a reason for removing all the handy tabs.

I guess I'm confused about the removal of the profile tab because it used to be there and it was functional, so there should be some reason behind removing it. But I wasn't following talk about the development of the home page, so I'm sure Tim et al. and others have their reasons for being against it.

I do have to say that the home page is growing on me... :-)

160lilithcat
Jun 21, 2008, 8:03pm Top

> 152

I was just wondering. Will we be able to change the layout?

~ducks and runs~

161JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 8:08pm Top

As to layout, my opinion is that the meat goes to the top and the candy goes to the bottom.

Left Side

Local
Connections News
Recommendations
Recently Added
Talk
Zeitgeist
MWYB

Right Side

Announcements
From the Blogs
Featured Authors
Early Reviewers
Recently Added by Others
Hot Reviews
Popular
On This Day

162JGoto
Jun 21, 2008, 8:18pm Top

I was unhappy at first, but after playing with it & eliminating a lot (It was too busy & distracting for me) I'm starting to like the page. Thanks, Tim! I am having trouble with editing two sections - Connections & Zeitgeist. Every time I try to downsize those, I get an error on page message.

163LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 8:51pm Top

Well, two hours later, I REALLY want the profile tab back.

164LolaWalser
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 8:56pm Top

Here's the thing: the profile page has everything I need, AND some of these things are NOT available on the home page. I don't like being forced to open the home page to go to my favourite place. Why can't we have both options? The home page for those who like it, and actually are going to use most of the modules (it's sort of ridiculous that I basically plan to kill everything on it, once I can), and things-as-they-were for the rest.

165LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 8:59pm Top

I suggest that the silly space between the "Talk" tab and "Add Books" would be THE perfect place for "Profile".

Yes.

Yes it would.

166Allie_Mag_79
Jun 21, 2008, 9:00pm Top

I would like a link to the profile page on every page (next to 'home'). Also, I find all of the stuff on the right hand side to be a bit distracting when we can customize this page, can we get rid of it entirely?

167wordweaver
Jun 21, 2008, 9:05pm Top

152: Who is the average user of LibraryThing, though? Without some data, it's hard to figure out what layout really would be useful for the greatest number of people.

But as a general suggestion, I do think that the home page should have a link to edit your account - at the moment, you still have to go to "My Profile".

Also, I'll join the chorus of people decrying the loss of the "My Profile" tab.

168etrainer
Jun 21, 2008, 9:12pm Top

#30 (I haven't gotten through to the remaining 130+ messages here, so pardon if I'm duplicating)

As you know, AsYouKnow_Bob, this is a great idea! I'd love a scratch pad area to put wish list items or other books I'm interested in for one reason or another. I'm always trying to print from the touchstone area in Talk to remember books discussed or mentioned. It would be nice to be able to quickly copy and paste to my scratch pad right in the site. Cool idea, if you ask me.

169_Zoe_
Jun 21, 2008, 9:18pm Top

I said this in the earlier thread, but the profile tab is important. Yes, we could bookmark it, but by that logic you might as well get rid of all the tabs.

The home page is not a substitute for the profile page. It doesn't have our comments or our lists of friends and interesting libraries. You took out a useful tab and replaced it with a redundant one; we could already get to the home page by clicking on the banner.

I'm not sure why every new feature has to involve taking away part of the existing navigation. Do you just enjoy arguing with the users and diverting attention from the actual feature?

I'll say again that I think you'll eventually need dropdowns. Forcing us to load multiple pages (or use bookmarks) to get to what we actually want to see is annoying, as you may have guessed by the user response every time you try to add another step.

170apple2e
Jun 21, 2008, 9:20pm Top

So far, the only oddity I have noticed on the Home page is in the "Recently Added" section. As you mouse across the book covers they bounce up and down slightly as the ?/pencil jumps from Recently Added (when the mouse is over a book) to Recent Recommendations (when the mouse is over white space between book covers). Firefox 1.5 on Fedora Core 6 (yes - I should upgrade this system...)

There is a lot of information on the home page and this will take some getting used to but on the whole I like it.

171christiguc
Jun 21, 2008, 9:26pm Top

Since we associate clicking on a name bringing us to the profile page (like clicking on my name in talk will take me to my profile page), can you make our name in the top right corner (by sign-out) be a link which would take us to our profile page? That way, you don't need to make room for another tab.

172stephmo
Jun 21, 2008, 9:26pm Top

Hmmm...maybe I'm the only user that got that super-secret toggle between home page - profile - connections - recommendations - reviews - statistics - clouds and gallery?

Nah, I think everyone has it...I don't believe I'm special like that.

And maybe, just maybe instead of asking for the old (and very redundant) tab back, we should see if the customization that's coming could include setting one's toggle to a default? Heck, there may be users that would prefer to see their author gallery every time they log in instead of anything else...

173LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 9:30pm Top

The home page is not a substitute for the profile page.

Hear, hear!

Yes, the bookmarks are annoying. That was my inevitable conclusion since I first posted I'd bookmarked my profile. After testing--I don't want to have to do that.

Tim, I'm sorry if it looks like some us aren't appreciating the work you all put in the home page, it's simply that for some of us it's... well, by and large unnecessary, or worse.

174aviddiva
Jun 21, 2008, 9:32pm Top

Just a suggestion -- what about moving the talk tab to the right of the local tab? I suspect that many more folks click on talk repeatedly than click on local, and that would put it at the end of the row where it's easier to find. It's not too hard to find now, of course, but still...

175Heather19
Jun 21, 2008, 9:37pm Top

First, just have to note about the screencast: So THAT'S how you say "zietgeist". I've always pronounced it "Zee-gUst". lol

I watched the screencast and felt it gave a MUCH better idea of what can be done then the blog post, but maybe that's just my visual-learning coming into play.

Now: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE bring back the "Profile" tab!! Pretty pretty please with sugar on top? As I've said so many times, my computer is slow/stupid/annoying, and extra clicks and page loads really make it hard on me. If I'm in "Talk", I now have to add a whole nother step, going to "Home", wait for that to load, and THEN click on "Profile". That's a lot of extra time and computer power. NOT FUN.

I love the new homepage, I honestly do, and I can't wait to start playing around with it. It looks like fun.

BUT no profile tab.... Just not right. Not good. No. I've backed down on things before, compromised, tried to understand your point of view... But this is just so inconvienient and unnessecery. Heck, I'd MUCH rather have the profile tab back then have the homepage at all!

176LolaWalser
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 9:43pm Top

#175

I'd MUCH rather have the profile tab back then have the homepage at all!

Me too. Exactly. Bears repeating. From my POV, it's the "Home" tab that's redundant. And increasingly annoying, since it looks like I'll want to avoid the home page!

#171

can you make our name in the top right corner (by sign-out) be a link which would take us to our profile page?

Or anything really. If they can make "BETA" link to it--I don't care. Only make it accessible.

177timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 9:50pm Top

On the profile tab, bringing back

I *really* don't think the profile tab is coming back. But I want to understand the problem, as members see it. I think, frankly, that the problem can be resolved more directly.

Here's my classification of the bring-back-the-profile movement:

1. Vague complaining.
2. Anti-social objections.
3. Specific-feature objections.

#1 is a quandry. I have found that users who "hate X" or "want X" generally hate or want something more specific. For example, the users who wanted the Tags tab back were really objecting to how long the catalog took to load. Tags allowed them to skip this.

So, if your hated is general, let's try to figure out what it's roots are. (Skip the stuff about your childhood. It's not relevant.)

#2 will, I think, be solved when we allow members to opt-out entirely from certain boxes. I am not against a setting so that, on sign up, it goes to your catalog—or to the moon for all I care. But it's not going to be the default.

#3 is a real problem. The pain-point I see mostly strongly is that the new regime makes it harder to message with other members, because there's no way to go from someone else's profile back to your profile.

There are a couple of ways to solve this, I think. One would be to have a comments module on the home page. I'm wary of this, though. Another would be to somehow provide links to your profile when you were on another member's profile.

I'm interested to work through this with you guys. I really am. But let's try to figure out the why. So, for example, for example, while I respect Lola's conclusion--which came after two hours of use and therefore wasn't a knee-jerk thing--I need to understand what's not working for her, and others.

178MissWoodhouse1816
Jun 21, 2008, 9:55pm Top

For what it's worth, I really like the changes. I especially like that I can see my group posts as soon as I log in- often that's the only reason I'm checking in so it will save me some time and clicking! Thanks for always trying to improve the site.

179rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 10:02pm Top

I like the new homepage, but I've thought from the beginning that there taking the profile tab away would be a problem. I don't think it's vague complaining or anti-social preferences that are driving people's objections to the disappearance of the tab, for the most part.

The reason it's a problem is that it's one of the main areas of the site where people want to go - one of the top-level pages. For that reason, it's a page users want to get to easily from whatever other part of the site they're on. Hence the desire for top-level (tab) navigation. This was the same issue with the tags tab and the recommendations tab. But it's even more of an issue here because so many people do use the profile page as their home-base for exploring the site. It's possible that some will migrate from the profile to the new homepage for that purpose, but it's also possible that some - including myself - will continue to use them in tandem. In particular, because the profile is one's "public face" on LT, people like to work on it, to see what it looks like, to keep up with comments, to use it to browse their connections the way they're used to. I don't see a lot of harm in leaving it there (or finding some other way to link it from every page), rather than making people change their navigational and site-use habits: they'll find the homepage along the way, and may start using it too or even instead. It's not uncommon for other sites to have separate but top-level navigations to one's profile, even if that isn't the default page for oneself.

180LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 10:04pm Top

Vague complaining etc? Tim, that's offensive. I want to be able to access my profile page like I could before. As I said, it has everything I need, it IS my "home page", and the new thing is no substitute for it. What's vague about that? Furthermore, I do NOT want to see the home page--possibly ever.

You may feel that the people who'd like the tab back are in a minority, but even if that's true, I don't see why you'd think it's all right to make our use of LT more cumbersome or frustrating.

181rsterling
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 10:12pm Top

Feature specific reasons: I use the profile to see my very rare comments (and to look at my archived ones), to see MWYB (which I'll do from homepage now too), to see my private watch list (quite frequently), to access the major areas of my library through my main tags, to access my favorite bookstores (sometimes), to access my also on page (this is actually the main way I get to my bloglines page), to get to certain library-related links that I've put in a private comment for myself. I also use it to update my profile occasionally, and I was thinking of putting a link (maybe through a private comment to myself) to wiki pages I've been working on.

For the record, I really do like the new homepage, and I especially like that I can see talk updates, recommendations, and connections there. But I'll continue to use the profile for certain things, and I'd like to be able to get there in one click from my catalog, from the talk page, or where ever I happen to be.

182Heather19
Jun 21, 2008, 10:07pm Top

177: Your "classifications" don't include the ONLY reason I'm objecting so strongly: Extra time/clicks/power needed to get to the profile.

Simply put, I want to see my profile. I like to see my profile. It's nothing to do with not liking the homepage, or anti-socialness, or specific feature objections. I like looking at my profile, tinkering with it, seeing that set-up and the messages.... I like my profile, and nothing that the homepage does will change that. I want to be able to GET to my profile easily, like I used to. "Bring the tab back" is only because that's what we used to have... link to the profile from the username at the upper-right, I don't care. But SOMEWHERE, there NEEDS to be an EASY way to get to our own profile. There simply isn't right now. THAT is what I'm complaining about.

183VisibleGhost
Jun 21, 2008, 10:10pm Top

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet. I like the ER request totals showing on the page. There are a few of us number nerds that watch such things. 1000+ requests didn't used to be that common. Now they happen monthly for more and more books.

BTW Tim, it doesn't exactly belong in this thread but thanks for the Top 1000 update.

184LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 10:11pm Top

And another thing--"anti-social"? I resent like hell your implication. If I weren't so upset, I'd have mentioned it in the above post. I have never felt insulted here before, now I do.

How DARE you call those who don't agree with your vision of "sociability" anti-social. I don't care if it's in jest. I'm not a 15-year old ditz, or a cretin who'd appreciate being FORCED to a page, outlook, fad, yard games and so on. And I doubt other people who complained about this change are.

185timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:13pm Top

bcobb

So, basically, you want an opt-out so that it goes to your catalog first, not to your home page, right?

Not to be querrelous, but your catalog was--for me, at 20--66k. I wish LT were slimmer for you, but I'm afraid lots of pages are bigger, not just home. Works are, for sure.

143 : Add the Profile tab back to the My Library page so that I don't have to waste time getting to My Favorite Authors on my profile page by first loading the home page.

Okay, this is exactly what I mean. The favorite authors is a feature. It's not a page. It can be removed from the profile page. It can be added to the home page. It could be put on the About page for all I care. Let's figure out what the problem is.

What are you doing with the favorites? Are you using them to "bookmark" authors you like to check back on? For what--events? New books? Quick links into your catalog? Or do you just want to get to them faster so you can de-favorite them? Help me out here.

Also on the recommendations lists, there are no authors listed for the books.

Yeah, I was wondering about this. It was unintentional, but then I liked it. I think it needs to be an option, at least.

Ignoring a thread not working from the Home page

A straightforward bug. I'll fix it.

161 meat goes to the top and the candy goes to the bottom

Wow. We have different meat and candy.

I suggest that the silly space between the "Talk" tab and "Add Books" would be THE perfect place for "Profile".

It's fifteen pixels wide.

The home page is not a substitute for the profile page. It doesn't have our comments or our lists of friends and interesting libraries. You took out a useful tab and replaced it with a redundant one; we could already get to the home page by clicking on the banner.

Right. So maybe, just maybe, it should have your comments, your friends and your interesting libraries? Right?

I'm not sure why every new feature has to involve taking away part of the existing navigation. Do you just enjoy arguing with the users and diverting attention from the actual feature?

186Meromo
Jun 21, 2008, 10:15pm Top

Not sure whether it's a bug or not, but my homepage appears to be predicting the future: saying that I'm a lifetime member, when in actual fact it shames me to admit that my yearly membership has expired. My profile is correct, though.

Also a million thank-yous for going with the word "Your" (as in Your Library, Your Profile), and not the horrendously twee MyLibrary, MyProfile etc. that is infecting the rest of the web.

187rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 10:17pm Top

Just saw this: 177 -"the users who wanted the Tags tab back were really objecting to how long the catalog took to load."
Actually, no, I and probably others objected because that was a page we used all the time that we were used to accessing from every other page through top-level navigation (and that we were thus used to seeing as a prominent part of LT), and we didn't like having to click several times to get there. I had the same problem with recommendations - which I used to click on all the time from various pages - but I'll live. Enough people seem to want the profile tab, though, that I don't see why it would make more sense to take it away.

188Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 10:18pm Top

After a few hours, honestly? I'm considering leaving. Ninety to ninety-five percent of my time is spent in Talk, on my Profile and in my library.

The Profile page is high level navigation to me. Not sub-level navigation. I want ease of use from every page to get to my Profile. I use it for Comments, I edit my profile regularly. I look at people's Profiles from it.

The Talk tab is now in a place that it makes it so annoying to have mouse back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, that I dislike going into Talk. Talk is my #1 reason for being here. I don't always have time to right click on every thread to open it in a new window. I click on Back to Top and then click on Talk which was right above it.

The only thing left that isn't annoying as hell that I use is my library. And I only use that about 5% of the time.

So why stay when all it does is annoy and aggravate me?

189Heather19
Jun 21, 2008, 10:20pm Top

"I'm not sure why every new feature has to involve taking away part of the existing navigation."

THANK YOU!! Exactly! I love the homepage itself, but WHY take away such a useful thing like easy access to the profile while implimenting it? It makes no sense. Shouldn't new features be adding to the ease and funness of LT, instead of complicating things and TAKING AWAY things?

190timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:20pm Top

Vague complaining etc? Tim, that's offensive. I want to be able to access my profile page like I could before. As I said, it has everything I need, it IS my "home page", and the new thing is no substitute for it. What's vague about that? Furthermore, I do NOT want to see the home page--possibly ever.

Duly noted. But since you haven't explained why--what you are missing from the home page or what you hate that's new, it's vague. It's very strong. It's vehement, in fact. But it offers me no guide to understanding what is your objection.

Anti-social.

I was being descriptive, not insulting. Some members hate anything social about the site. This has been true since the start, and is something we always keep in mind, franky.

Quote: "Guess I'd better get to work on my Koha installation so that I'll have an alternative way of accessing my data without the now forced "socialiation" of LT."

177: Your "classifications" don't include the ONLY reason I'm objecting so strongly: Extra time/clicks/power needed to get to the profile.

But why are you wanting to go to your profile? That's the question. You aren't going to the profile because you like the look of the word "profile" on the page. You want something? Something makes sense to you? Depending on the answer to that, we can decide if:

1. It can be added to the home page.
2. It can't be added to the home page, so a shortcut must be provided.

191JacInABook
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 10:30pm Top

My profile page is my public face on LT. The home page is great but no one can see it except me the profile page is where other members will go to see what I'm doing. On my profile I have a lot of information that I update regularly including links to my blog and wiki, my wish lists, friend and interesting libraries lists, etc. Whilst I don't really care about a tab I think a direct route to profiles is needed on each page.

161 meat goes to the top and the candy goes to the bottom

Wow. We have different meat and candy.

What's the saying, one man's meat is another man's poison? Differing opinions are what makes life more interesting :)

Edited to make the post understandable I hope... it's late here.

192_Zoe_
Jun 21, 2008, 10:22pm Top

1. Vague complaining.

Specific complaint: You're making the navigation more complicated than it was before. Regardless of how quickly the additional pages load, having to load any extra pages at all is bad. Why would you add extra steps when they aren't necessary?

2. Anti-social objections.

Um, exactly the opposite. The profile is a pretty social page. Comments and lists of other users are pretty social features.

3. Specific-feature objections.


As well as comments, I like to go to other users' catalogues, which is why I put them on my watch list. This makes that more difficult.

Why don't you turn this around and consider your reasons for removing the profile tab?
1. Vague dislike of tabs
2. An attempt to force people into using the new feature by making it harder to use anything else
3. A dislike of easy navigation? It sure seems like complicating the nagivation has been one of your principal goals lately, just for the sake of it.

193timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:22pm Top

After a few hours, honestly? I'm considering leaving. Ninety to ninety-five percent of my time is spent in Talk, on my Profile and in my library.

What are you doing on your profile? Admiring your picture? No. There is something there that you are using or enjoying.

What is it? If I could understand it, then we could decide how to deal with the problem.

194Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 10:23pm Top

>My profile page is my public face on LT.

Exactly. And I update it frequently.

195timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:24pm Top

2. Anti-social objections.

Um, exactly the opposite. The profile is a pretty social page. Comments and lists of other users are pretty social features.


You're right. The anti-social opinion was not pro-profile. It was anti-home page.

196rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 10:24pm Top

Generally, it's a big change fast. People need to warm to the new homepage. Many of the features of the profile could be added to the homepage, sure. But some people may prefer - out of habit, out of aesthetics, out of a desire to work from the same public page that everyone else sees for them - to use the profile as their main base. But people do have established ways that they use the site on a daily basis, and when the navigation changes significantly (loss of top-level link) at the same time that there is a new page, which - rightly or wrongly - people perceive as a replacement for something they used all the time, it's a big change to get used to. Again, I say this as someone who likes the new page.

197_Zoe_
Jun 21, 2008, 10:25pm Top

Right. So maybe, just maybe, it should have your comments, your friends and your interesting libraries? Right?


I didn't have a chance to read this before writing my last post.

Sorry, but this is just stupid. Just because people want a quick way to access their various static information (e.g., lists of people) for whatever reason, why should you move all the static information onto the dynamic homepage, therefore making it less interesting?

Look at facebook. They have a profile and a homepage/newsfeed. They're two different things. They serve two different purposes. Why not combine all of LT onto one page, and then you won't need the tabs at all?

198Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 10:26pm Top

I used to love LT because it was easy to use. It's getting harder and harder to use and more of a pain in the butt.

>2 Noisy:. An attempt to force people into using the new feature by making it harder to use anything else

AMEN!

199timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:28pm Top

I just want to get to the bottom of things.

"I hate the home page because I can't get to the profile" tells me nothing. Does the user miss the messaging? The friend list? Both can be added. The home page is inherently flexible and adaptable in a way the profile could never be.

But does the user want to keep more constant watch over what other members are seeing on their profile? That's not easy to do from the profile.

So please, please, take it down a notch and try to explain to me what exactly you're having problems with.

200rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 10:28pm Top

"then we could decide how to deal with the problem" - it seems like it would be easy to solve it by just putting a profile tab back or creating something equivalent. That would make a lot of people happy at pretty low cost. What's the reason for taking it away?

201_Zoe_
Jun 21, 2008, 10:29pm Top

>200 rsterling: Yup, problem solved.

202timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:30pm Top

Sorry, but this is just stupid. Just because people want a quick way to access their various static information (e.g., lists of people) for whatever reason, why should you move all the static information onto the dynamic homepage, therefore making it less interesting?

Many of the complaints—that were specific—have been about the non-static elements, like messaging. That you don't care about this aspect isn't evidence of my stupidity. It is evidence that people differ. Understanding how people differ here is my job.

203Heather19
Jun 21, 2008, 10:30pm Top

190: Okay, you want they whys? I'll try to explain, tho I doubt I'll do a good job. My Profile is set up by me. It shows me what other people see when they look at my profile. It shows the layout that other people see. It shows the order that other people see. In other words, if I was logged in as some other user, and clicked on Heather19 in one of these talk threads, THAT is where it would take me (minus the private comments).

I like that. I LOVE that. I love looking at my profile, the ENTIRE profile, not bits and peices that have been "moved" to the homepage, I like to look at my ENTIRE profile the way OTHER people will see it, and be able to mess with it and change with. I like to do other stuff from there, too... Yes, I understand there are other ways to get to things like Favorite Authors and stuff (or maybe, I'm really not sure), but THAT is the way I do it. I do it from my profile because it's the order I go in.

I love tinkering with my profile. I love changing the look, messing around with it, or just re-reading it. This is all stuff that CAN NOT be accomplished from the homepage unless you essentially move the entire profile page to the homepage.

200: EXACTLY. Tim seems to be trying VERY hard to "fix" all the reasons WHY people want the profile tab back, which could be TONS of "fixes" that most likely wouldn't make us happy anyways. Why not just bring it back??

204ktran82
Jun 21, 2008, 10:31pm Top

The people preceding me have basically covered all the reasons I use my profile and why I look at it and edit it occasionally. I don't care what top-level mechanism is available to get to my profile (tab or clicking my username) -- I would just like the ability to get to the profile from any LT page.

205rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 10:33pm Top

I'm not trying to be a pain - like I said I like what you've done with the new homepage. It's not about the homepage; its just an objection to losing parts of the navigation. I've given some detailed reasons in several postings (sorry, I didn't think of them all at the same time): 179, 181, 196.

206timspalding
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 10:35pm Top

I have restored the profile tab. Complaints seem general enough that it's back. At some point I do think we'll have to move to drop-downs. I predict members will leave the site over them.

You'll notice there's some waffling about what tab various subpages are on. I am working to resolve this. I shall remove all profile-level links from the top of the home page.

207VictoriaPL
Jun 21, 2008, 10:34pm Top

The Home page is full of stuff I don't care about and I have little control over. The profile page has fields I can enter my own text into like reading/wishlists, links to my blog, etc. I control the content on my profile page, YOU control the content on the home page.

The home page is visually noisy. It's like Facebook and that's not a compliment. The profile page is more pleasing to the eye.

208stephmo
Jun 21, 2008, 10:35pm Top

I mentioned this before - why not allow users to lock their preferred toggle from the Home tab?

Personally, I love the new home page. And I absolutely understand what you're asking for here - I've spent countless conference call and meeting hours on the why. Oh, how I love the user that knows why rather than, "this is not what I am used to." How I love the user that realizes 1 flipping click is not the end of the world...

But to the problem that is a growing number of tabs, I figure locking a toggle under the home tab (which is a better name than Profile considering everything we were able to find there anyway), might be a good middle-of-the road solution.

This solves the "extra click" problem.

209rsterling
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 10:41pm Top

"I have restored the profile tab. " Thank you, Tim!

(I hate to pipe up again, but I don't understand the 2nd part: why remove the profile-level links from the homepage? I think it's good if there's duplication across pages - it's a common (sub)navigational structure. Added: wait, no, I'm just confused. I don't know what's changed, or what you mean by profile-level links.)

210Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 10:39pm Top

I also like the idea of being able to toggle my home page. That way everyone is happy. Tim gets fewer tabs, people who like the home page can go there, people who like the profile can go there and people who like their library first thing can chose that.

211timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:39pm Top

I've rearranged them again, slightly, putting home and profile next to each other. They are a sort of two-headed tab insofar as their subnavigation is the same. Ultimately, I think they're under the same dropd-down, when we add them.

212rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 10:43pm Top

211 - next to each other: this makes good sense.

208/210 - setting the toggle sounds like a good idea, if I'm understanding it correctly.

213timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:45pm Top

Wait, is the toggle idea still necessary? Someone explain it to me? Haven't I provided everyone with what they wanted now?

214stephmo
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 10:48pm Top

In my mind, you'd basically chose your "default" toggle. So when you clicked on the tab, you'd see your default 1st.

The new home page would be the default if you set nothing.

Otherwise, you could chose profile, author gallery or recommendations - anything on the toggle...and that's what you see 1st when you click on "home."

Of course, I offer this not knowing what type of coding this entails. =P

In all honesty, I was happy with the idea of killing tabs - and now we're getting messy. And I don't like drop-down menus - they annoy me.

ETA - I was typing the toggle thing while you were in the middle of putting back the profile tab...

215Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 10:45pm Top

But you don't like the additional tab. So we are trying to make you happy, too. Imagine that.

216Morphidae
Jun 21, 2008, 10:48pm Top

Can you put a link to the main Talk page right after or next to the back to top link at the end of each thread? That would solve my only other, very serious aggravation.

217LolaWalser
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 10:52pm Top

I have little new to add to what's been said.

First, I'd say listen to rsterling. I agree with everything in his posts.

Like Zoe, I see no point to transferring the profile, more or less, to the home page. I like how the profile looks, the relative simplicity of the features, and I like the combination of the features on it--MWYB, Member connections, Authors, Comments, links to library etc. That's the "usefulness" part for me, that's what I look at the most, that's what I use, what LT is "for" (for me)--looking at libraries, checking out my marked libraries (I'm interested in more than just what I can see on Connections which is limited sequences of individual books), reading comments, updating my reading list, glancing at the visitor map... Specific enough? It's ALL on the profile, which is why the profile is my base--the "home" page. Visually too, I like it better than the home page (which I don't hate, btw), and I certainly like it better than I would a home page burdened with more profile features.

So far, what I like the best on the new home page? The recently added module--dynamic, and by default the most "global", widest window on new books and people.

ETA: thanks for restoring the tab.

218rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 10:50pm Top

"Haven't I provided everyone with what they wanted now?" Yes. What 214 and 215 said. I was also thinking about their toggling suggestion in comparison to a drop-down, when I mentioned it in 212 - something for another day.

219timspalding
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 10:53pm Top

>214 stephmo:

By default you mean what one tab is used? Or do you mean what you get when you enter?

I think, frankly, the problem is solved. As with your library/tabs, I'm bothered by two tabs that have the same subnav. And I'm frustrated at being unable to pin down what many of the objections were. But putting back the tab is not the end of the world. Sometimes redundancy works, if it makes sense is some sort of rough way, and I think this does.

The growing number of tabs is a problem, for sure, but not critical for most users. And at this point the answer is going to be drop-downs, I have come to agree, although I hold out hope for alternates.

Can you put a link to the main Talk page right after or next to the back to top link at the end of each thread? That would solve my only other, very serious aggravation.

So, your aggravation is that, after you finish reading a thread, you want to go back "up" to the top level of talk, right? And you use the "top" link, which has your mouse on the right, so you want the link on the right, right?

220virginiahomeschooler
Jun 21, 2008, 10:51pm Top

Well, I think the new home page is fantastic. I didn't really need any additional content to love LT, but it seems you've found a way to improve it (in my opinion) anyway. You guys are all kinds of awesome!

Two thumbs up here! And, if I had more than two thumbs, they'd be up, too.

221timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:54pm Top

>220 virginiahomeschooler:

Thanks Virginia. Can you hold my feet when they string me up for tab-abuse?

222DaynaRT
Jun 21, 2008, 10:55pm Top

Tim, Chris, et al. - I love it, and thanks for the no covers option. I never have to see my profile again. That's a good thing.

223JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 10:55pm Top

I still think the Home Page is a great addition to LT.

Thanks Tim and Co for all your work.

224timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:56pm Top

But why don't you want to see your profile?

I'm joking, really. :)

225timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:56pm Top

Okay, I'm going to kill a tab. I'm thinking of a number between one and thirteen. Anyone?

226rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 10:57pm Top

219 - the toggling thing, as I (mis?)understood it: I think it was something like being able to set a "default view" when one logs on and/or clicks "home", where the options for that default would be one of of the options at the top of the Homepage (one "toggles" between them, I think): Your Home | Your Profile | Connections | Recommendations | Reviews | Statistics | Clouds | Gallery. (Although I'm not sure anyone would choose Gallery as her/his default page.)
I don't think this is something to worry about at this point, but it might be an alternative to drop-downs. Maybe. Perhaps. But people seem generally happy now. I also don't mind the number of tabs - there's still a big space between the left & right ones.

227timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 10:58pm Top

Can I ask if people like the "gap-toothed" tabs—the separation between the three "areas" on the left?

I don't like it, but when they're all together it's a tab blog. I played with colors—subtle differences. Abby slapped me down fast. I can't think of any other way to "group" the tabs effectively.

228stephmo
Jun 21, 2008, 10:58pm Top

>219 timspalding: One Tab, Called "Home" - Dump the Profile Tab (I think this is fair considering everything under Profile anyway - it's far more than a profile anymore).

From here, the Toggles are:

Home
Your Profile
Connections
Recommendations
Reviews
Statistics
Clouds
Gallery

In the customization, you get to pick what you see as your default when you click on the Home Tab.

For everyone, the new homepage is the default until they say differently. Otherwise, you can pick Profile (which you'd click on the Home tab and immediately see if that were your default) or any of the other defaults.

Make sense?

229JacInABook
Jun 21, 2008, 10:58pm Top

12 if it's going from left to right.

I'm off to bed before the firework display :)

230rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 10:58pm Top

225 - how about hide and seek: one goes missing per day, randomly, and then reappears the next. Then we see how long it takes for folks to notice... ;)

231rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 11:01pm Top

227 - gap-toothed: no preference either way. Neither bothers me.

232stephmo
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 11:03pm Top

>230 rsterling: Don't laugh, that's how I make many report improvements. I don't announce a thing...stuff just mysteriously disappears one day. It's always funny when someone notices it...six months later! They quickly agree that it wasn't the urgent piece of information they believed it was after that chat.

ETA - unrelated to 230 - I'm okay with the Gaps, I just worry that we're getting too many tabs that could be easily done by the work of about six...

233timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 11:02pm Top

also don't mind the number of tabs - there's still a big space between the left & right ones.

The space is moderate on the smallest common screen size, 768x1024. That's also the MOST common screen size. About two more tabs could go in without bumping.

Unfortunately, we still have 5% of members using 800x600 screens. They lost the ability to see all the tabs in a row some time ago. It looks like crap for them.

For reference 3.4% use dialup.

234LolaWalser
Jun 21, 2008, 11:03pm Top

#225

Tools or About or both.

The gaps don't bother me.

235rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 11:05pm Top

233: ah, just played with my font size: I see what you mean.

236VictoriaPL
Jun 21, 2008, 11:08pm Top

Since you have your blog articles linked on the Home page, could we do without the Blog tab?

237timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 11:08pm Top

Not the blog tab—Not my baby!

Good point, actually.

238DaynaRT
Jun 21, 2008, 11:09pm Top

The gaps are fine. About tab could go. I normally look for About Us at the bottom of a page.

239libros
Jun 21, 2008, 11:09pm Top

Message 185: timspalding

LIBROS="Add the Profile tab back to the My Library page so that I don't have to waste time getting to My Favorite Authors on my profile page by first loading the home page."

TS=Okay, this is exactly what I mean. The favorite authors is a feature. It's not a page. It can be removed from the profile page. It can be added to the home page. It could be put on the About page for all I care. Let's figure out what the problem is.

What are you doing with the favorites? ... Help me out here.
==================
First -- THANK YOU for restoring the Profile tab to Your Library page. It does not have to be a tab, just someway to view Profile w/o an intermediary page.

TS: "The favorite authors is a feature. It's not a page. It can be removed from the profile page."

If you remove it then others can't see it. You asked what I use it for:
It's the fastest way for me to monitor my favorite authors for combining/uncombining work. My profile page loads fast--much faster access to my favorites than if I added a "Favorite" tag to a single book by each of my favorite authors and then had to search on that tag and wait for the results to be displayed.

There is NOTHING on the home page that I have any need/use/desire for -- but many, if not most others will use and enjoy it. That's good. But please don't force those of us who have no need for the Home page to start there each time we login to LT.

Please add the non-default option to be taken directly to my Library upon login and I promise to quit complaining!

And for those who think just one more mouse click is meaningless -- think how you would feel if your dominant hand were in a cast and your job required you to be online 50-60 hours a week and then you found that one of your few "just for fun" web sites changed its navigation so that more clicks were required to do what had been streamlined before. Each click is important in User Interface design.

240timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 11:10pm Top

Is there any chance we could discuss the home page again, and not tabs?

A significant majority of users here appreciate the home page, and quite a few think it's fantastic—and on the blog too.

Can I start another thread?

241stephmo
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 11:12pm Top

ETA- um, this was totally about the new Home Page...and not about tabs...looking around for the new thread...

242Heather19
Jun 21, 2008, 11:14pm Top

I like the gaps. Makes the "groups" of tabs look better, easier to look at and naviagate, I think.

233: Ohhhhh I love statistics like that! hehe

*would TOTALLY send Tim some expensive wine if I had the money* I LOOOOVE you for bringing the profile tab back!! Than you!

243rsterling
Jun 21, 2008, 11:14pm Top

More possibilities to save space. Put search or a search box under the username/logout (upper right). Combine Tools and About into a single tab "Help", which links to a page with sub-links to tools, about, and help/FAQ. Combine Zeitgeist and Blog page to a News tab, and create a page that links to those two.

I don't really like these ideas (except maybe the search box one), but I'm just throwing them out there. Several of these could go at the bottom (Tools, About), or on the profile and homepage.

244timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 11:14pm Top

About tab could go. I normally look for About Us at the bottom of a page.

I think you're right. And we'll be making the non-user home page better. So I went ahead and removed it.

245DaynaRT
Jun 21, 2008, 11:16pm Top

When I can I begin whining about the Tag Watch module? ;)

246timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 11:21pm Top

Right now, but over here:

http://www.librarything.com/talktopic.php?topic=39205

So, I'm going to add a feature to allow you to choose where you go on sign-in—library, home page, profile. I just need to figure out where it lives.

247Heather19
Jun 21, 2008, 11:22pm Top

Just so I don't get my knickers in a twist again, how long can we expect until the layout is customizable? I know it will be, just... are we talking days or weeks?

248christiguc
Jun 21, 2008, 11:22pm Top

As you said here, Tim: User names are links in every such application I've seen—at least when there aren't user profile images, which is the norm.

I still don't think profile needs its own tab and that the name in the upper right could work as a link. The tabs look a little busy and gapped.

That said--I think it's all good and don't really care as many people here do.

I LOVE the new home page: it has most of the information I need in one place so that I don't have to go to five different pages to get the same information.

249timspalding
Edited: Jun 21, 2008, 11:23pm Top

I have started a new thread, to refocus on the home page. If you want to discuss lingering tab issues, we can do it here, or there.

http://www.librarything.com/talktopic.php?topic=39205

250timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 11:26pm Top

Just so I don't get my knickers in a twist again, how long can we expect until the layout is customizable? I know it will be, just... are we talking days or weeks?

I'll tell you Monday, when we get the team together. Not more than 10 days. I'd like to get it out this coming week, though.

251Topper
Jun 21, 2008, 11:26pm Top

What I use my profile tab for:

1. To check for comments

After that, um, what else is there? I also use the reviews tab to check whether someone has thumb-upped a review.

252VisibleGhost
Jun 21, 2008, 11:27pm Top

To show the different uses of the Profile page I use mine to see if Abby tells me whether I've snagged an ER book or not. That's about it. I'll cop to the antisocial stereotype. There's no email, gender, other sites, counters, maps, current reads, picture, or much else there. Well, some unanswered comments, questions and friend requests. I'm the opposite of a lot of users. I don't mind posting in Talk but I know some are uncomfortable doing so and use the PM system more. But I haven't felt the need to go private.

Still, putting the Profile tab back isn't going to bother me at all and it looks like it will satisfy a lot of users.

253timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 11:31pm Top

>252 VisibleGhost:

It's back. Glad you weren't insulted to be called antisocial. Anyway, as readers will note, there is a definition between anti-social and antisocial. By anti-social I meant anti the social features or LT, not that they were personally against mingling.

254Heather19
Jun 21, 2008, 11:44pm Top

253: After all the nagging I've done in this thread, I have to add something very seriously important in a good way here: I am VERY antisocial in real life. VERY. In general, I hate people. I hate interacting with them. And I usually hate sites like MySpace and such, for that very reason (yeah I have accounts on those type of sites, only 'cause my friends nagged me to).

Anyways. LibraryThing is one of the VERY few sites I've seen that I'm actually drawn into the social aspect of it. This site has a very clear non-social part, cataloguing, which is what I came here for, and avoided that Groups for awhile. But somehow I got drawn in, and I've met some awesome people that way and had some wonderful conversations.

Basically my point is that I LOVE how this site does socializing, Tim. I love it. I'm totally antisocial, and yet on Librarything I LOVE the social aspects. ..... You must be doing something right. lol

255timspalding
Jun 21, 2008, 11:45pm Top

>254 Heather19:

Come visit Abby, Sonya and me in Boston some time. We'll sit in silence and grin at each other. :)

256AndrewB
Jun 21, 2008, 11:55pm Top

>255 timspalding:

Streamed. Live. :)

257FicusFan
Jun 22, 2008, 12:06am Top


I have come to like the homepage as I said before, but I am also glad the profile tab is back.

Profile is important because that is where the comments are, and if you have to go there and read them, and then reply to them, it should be easy to get back and forth.

Also, if you make the focus of the site The Homepage, and people use it and not the Profile page (because there are extra clicks), won't the site end up being more isolating and less social, because only you (the account owner) can see your Homepage ? So everyone will be hanging out on their private Homepage and the Profile will become like a derelict building ?

Having been through this uproar with the removal of the tags tab, I am really surprised that it happened again. Why is it that you want to kill the tabs ? They look fine and are easy to use. If you don't want drop downs, then make tabs double rowed. I hope its not to make us in the real world conform to some rule in a book about 'proper design'.

If you think a new feature is going to replace a tab, the better philosophy would be to make it so useful to people that they stop using the tab you want to kill. Then you can remove it after the new feature with new behavior patterns are in place and no one will care. Removing a tab abruptly is like suddenly coming home and your house is gone, or the spouse/SO/Child in it is not the same as when you left.

258staffordcastle
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 12:42am Top

Hi, Tim

I like the new page, but like many others, will be moving things around when that becomes available. The blog links really do belong right under announcements, since the announcements will most likely be expanded on in the blogs. And Talk topics and MWYB will be higher up.

Someone mentioned that it was unclear what the search box was searching; I had assumed it was my library, but a way to search for other things might be nice. Perhaps a link to the Search page right next to this box? And while I'm on the subject, I'm not too keen on the Search tab being all the way to the right; I think it would fit better in the group with My Library/Tags/Add Books.

One thing I find quite helpful is that the home page loads way faster than the My Library page; at over 2,300 books, I always jump away from it immediately on logging in, to something that loads quickly (usually either Add Books or my Profile as a jumping off point for Talk).

It seems clear to me that what a lot of people are having a problem with is that all the functions they use frequently on their profiles are not being transferred to the new home page. So, can those functions be available on the home page? You've already mentioned that messages will be coming; MWYB is already there, as is a form of access to Groups; others have mourned the loss of quick access to favorited authors/bookstores/libraries and top tags. These things have a valid place on the profile, but couldn't they show up in the home page too? This might go a long way to reconcile the people who are objecting to the new arrangement.

ETA: About sixty messages went up while I was writing this one. So I'm out of date. But some comments still apply.

259alasen
Jun 22, 2008, 12:22am Top

I've searched this page but couldn't find it (and don't want to read all the posts) - my user picture is not loading (loads fine on the Profile page).

260_Zoe_
Jun 22, 2008, 1:07am Top

Many of the complaints—that were specific—have been about the non-static elements, like messaging. That you don't care about this aspect isn't evidence of my stupidity. It is evidence that people differ.

I know I should probably abandon the dead horse, but I have to point out that I was one of the people who specifically complained about messaging (e.g., in #169). So you shouldn't take the fact that I don't care about it as evidence for anything, since that's simply not the case.

Basically, my point was that, even if you move all the dynamic content (such as messaging) to the homepage, there's still some static content on the profile that people want to access for various reasons. We may disagree about what's static and what's not (for example, I consider my watch list static), but in the end it comes down to moving all the content from the profile onto the homepage, or leaving an easy way to get to the profile. The new homepage is great as it is, and would probably be a lot worse if it had to include everything that's currently on the profile.

Anyway, I'm glad we were able to satisfy the angry gods with a sacrifice of the About tab instead. I'd give up Local next.

261timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 1:13am Top

>260 _Zoe_:

Fair enough. I maintain that it was hard to get people to explain just what they were missing, and therefore to figure out the cure. But, although Talk is a very lousy statistical measure, it does seem displeasure with the move was widespread enough to postpone it until the nav is redesigned in a deeper way.

262DanoWins
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 1:35am Top

moved to new thread

263Katissima
Jun 22, 2008, 1:46am Top

I didn't realize until I actually used it, but the search box only searches my own catalog. When I said a search box on the rec. site improvements thread, I meant a search box for stuff not in my catalog. Works, authors, users, etc. Preferably a search box with a little pull down menu, so you can either search everything or you can choose--works, authors, groups, users, etc. I'd like to be able to search from my home page, so I can more conveniently use Library Thing as my go-to site for book related information. More searching :)

264timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 1:47am Top

>263 Katissima:

The great problem is that we don't have a site-wide search. That's actually not easy. So it would need to be very split up or with a menu, as you say.

265_Zoe_
Jun 22, 2008, 1:51am Top

Straying a bit from the topic, since you're considering search, would it be possible to add more ways to search the site for books? Like, say, by Dewey Decimal number?

266Katissima
Jun 22, 2008, 1:52am Top

A menu would be fine even without the option for site-wide search. Seems very library-ish to me. What do you always see when you go to a library page? A search box with pull down options for--at least--title, author, keyword. I'd prefer a pull down menu than the way the search page is--with all the separate boxes.

267monarchi
Jun 22, 2008, 1:52am Top

>246 timspalding: So, I'm going to add a feature to allow you to choose where you go on sign-in—library, home page, profile. I just need to figure out where it lives.
Any chance of implementing stephmo's suggestion in #228? That might be able to address both the tab overcrowding problem and the desire people have for a one-stop way to get to the profile.
(Unless the same people want one-click navigation to the profile and one-click navigation to the homepage.) Still wouldn't help people who want their start page to be their library or Talk, though.

That said, I love the site, and the new homepage is just the icing on top of the cake. I'm super excited about it and it's not even fully functional yet. Thanks!

268Heather19
Jun 22, 2008, 3:01am Top

264: Maybe I'm REALLY showing my tech-naiveity here, but huh? I'm pretty sure we have a "site-wide" search, as in searching things not in our catalogue, as evidenced by the search tab. Or is this a totally different "search"?

269reconditereader
Jun 22, 2008, 4:29am Top

THANKS for bringing back the profile tab! I use it a lot and would miss it if it were gone. I have a high-speed connection but still hate extra clicks.

Thanks!

270DaynaRT
Jun 22, 2008, 8:45am Top

by Dewey Decimal number

I would do illegal things for a Dewey search.

271DanoWins
Jun 22, 2008, 8:48am Top

Dewey search indeed! That would be awesome! I would be a willing accomplice to fleela (in those illegal things) for a Dewey search.

272Morphidae
Jun 22, 2008, 8:50am Top

I would do illegal things and bring chocolate.

273timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 9:11am Top

You mean a Dewey® Decimal® search. Please, don't get me in trouble with the big boys.

274Morphidae
Jun 22, 2008, 9:39am Top

I don't see how you can show Dewey Decimal numbers but not be allowed to do a search. I know our library allows a search by DD. Why not here?

275timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 9:42am Top

No, we can do it. We can't show the schedules, though. They're protected by copyright. And we have to be careful about trademark.

We can probably show one or two levels down, although I'm not sure the justification there, unless we use the pre-1923 ones, which are out of copyright.

276Morphidae
Jun 22, 2008, 9:43am Top

Nah, I'd just like to be able to search for a book in the 003 section, for instance.

277DanoWins
Jun 22, 2008, 9:50am Top

I'd like to be able to see how everyone else (that is actually using DDC) is showing the number. Some are using only 3 digits since they have no need for anything after the decimal, while I like to use up to 8 or 9 digits (5 or 6 after the decimal) plus 5-6 (or more) letters of author/subjects name plus the year of publication. Being able to see all of the ways Lters are using the numbers would save me having to go to LoC or hunting through libraries on WorldCat.

278LolaWalser
Jun 22, 2008, 10:56am Top

I maintain that it was hard to get people to explain just what they were missing, and therefore to figure out the cure.

What does this mean? That "people" weren't willing to explain what they were missing (if so, who exactly?), or that they were failing to explain it to your satisfaction? I maintain that the fact that you don't use Profile like some of us do may have made you singularly unsympathetic to the upheaval caused by the change. Perhaps the explanations we offered WERE sufficient, but YOU failed to grasp them? Just a thought.

I don't want to quarrel. But surely you must see that insisting we ("people"? some of us? who?) were indulging in nothing more than vague bitchery is likely to cause more anger.

For instance, you didn't address ANY of the things I wrote about how I use Profile, nor did you address rsterling's main posts about the effects of the change (179 and on).

In fact, you didn't even address any of the multiple posts I made about edits not sticking to specific modules on the home page, the Zeitgeist and the MYWB. No one expects you to jump to attention at every member's every post and every little thing, and I wouldn't bring this up IF you weren't still painting us as unreasonable whiners. I started off complimenting the home page, although there's not much on it for me. I tried to work around the loss of the Profile tab. When I discovered it was too unpleasantly disruptive, I explained why the profile is my home page.

You still don't understand? Maybe we can have a conversation and explain more, maybe not. The bottom line is, if you don't care for my or someone else's use of the Profile, you aren't likely to completely understand why we're using it in a certain way, and why we may prefer it.

The "anti" thing, anti-home page, antisocial, and anti-social. Who was anti-home page? Not me. I said I'd juggle the boxes around, suppress some, and likely not use it much (or at all, given Profile). But modifying it doesn't mean I'm "anti" it, I simply don't need it, as it is. The profile suffices for MY needs. But I wouldn't dream of extending this to every other person on LT, in fact I said we (profile-as-base) users are likely in a minority.

About anti-sociability and antisociability, the less said, the better. I accept your clarification of the terms and recognise that, in that light, there was no call for me to get upset. Now, let's shelve the "vague bitchin'" slur, unruffle the feathers, and carry on.

P.S.

The module edits for Zeitgeist and MYWB aren't sticking.

279timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 12:26pm Top

> 278

The basic problem is a disconnect between how users think of a page and how user-interface designers. Users are, in general, operating on a different basis than what the user-interface designer thinks about.

To the user, the site is mostly a given, and suggestions and objections are generally expressed either emotionally or at a high level of concreteness. The concreteness tends to focus on specific user-interface elements--buttons missing, buttons I hate, etc.--or on previous patterns—ways someone used to do it.

The UI designer feels that everything on the site was "built" and can be un-built, rebuilt and rearranged in an infinitude of patterns and that, within certain limitations, habit should not decisive. The UI designer wants to understand people's desires, and only then try to figure out how to embody them in features.*

So, when a user says "I want the profile back," my question is "why?" because to me the profile is an artificial construct--one I made out of a wide diversity of elements and ideas, making decisions and compromises all along the way attempting to make users happy and grow the site. Much as there is no spoon, there is no profile. There are rather attempts to meet users' desires and satisfactions.

Now, there certainly was some specificity given. I won't deny that--you more than others.** But, I don't think most posts were of that vein. That's fine. I know from previous encounters--and, frankly, this is all user-experience wisdom 101--that users are not interface designers, and that it's my job to translate the language of users into the language of interface designers--to convert emotion and specific solution into the why, to really dig deep until the underlying truth emerges. Usually interface designers, whose contact with users is very slight, have to do this all in their heads--to theorize about why their users are unhappy. I get to ask.

I was wrong to be snippy at any point. This is my job. I think you realize I am human, and that this is also my consuming passion. There are upsides and downsides to that.

In fact, you didn't even address any of the multiple posts I made about edits not sticking to specific modules on the home page, the Zeitgeist and the MYWB.

Help. I fixed dozens of bugs and infelicities. I was not ignoring yours, nor am I now. I thought I solved the MWYB feature. (Looking now, it seems solved, at least for me.) And I was not touching the Zeitgeist because the code was entirely Chris' and I thought it would be much more efficient if he worked on it.


*Incidentally, you're entirely right that if someone else's experiences or pratices aren't like my own, it's harder to understand them. That's human limitations for you. I run up against it a lot, as LT is used by a lot of people in a lot of different ways.

**I would also like to say that not everything or even most things I said about "users" applied to you. I'm sorry if I seemed to lump you in.

Notably, The anti-social thread was not you, but it was out there. Frankly, I anticipated it and, to some extent, tried to pull back on "socialization" for that reason. I know some users see LT as a cataloging ap and little more. It's hard to know for sure, but I suspect this group is much larger than Talk would suggest, insofar as disdaining the social aspects is probably correlated with disdaining Talk.

280OsideNative
Jun 22, 2008, 12:35pm Top

I am having the same problem with the "edit" function on the home page that I have with trying to make a Member Recommendation - the bottom of the edit box is cut off by the bottom of the screen. I cannot access the lower part (with the important buttons like "save") even when I get rid of toolbars. They are, therefore, unusable. Can you PLEEEZE set the edit and Member Recommendation pop-ups to open at a higher position? I'd really like to be able to use these features.

On the Today in History edit I can at least see the top half of the Save and Cancel buttons, enough to use them.

(XP Home, IE6)

281infiniteletters
Jun 22, 2008, 12:52pm Top

280: Or just put the Save button at the top. I think that would fix a lot of the resolution problems.

282LolaWalser
Jun 22, 2008, 1:07pm Top

Thanks for replying, Tim. I'm leery of confrontations but, as you probably won't be surprised to hear, as someone who's had to defend her bookish passions all her life, not least from the (not entirely unfounded) accusation that she prefers books to people (only many to most! Not all to all!), I had some sensitive buttons pushed yesterday. Glad it's all sorted out.

Re: module edits--the Zeitgeist seems to have got the message (everything is clicked off and stays clicked off), but I still can't extend the MWYB past the first hundred. Incidentally, the availability of the longer MWYB list on the home page is a big attraction, in my view.

283twomoredays
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 1:27pm Top

I'm going to stick my head in the lion's mouth because there's something about the screaming for the profile tab back that has really bugged me. And apparently I'm a sadist. So here we go.

Is it possible that everyone who is using the profile as their homepage is in fact mis-using their profile? Now, I know this is LT and we like to think we can use anything in anyway we please, but just humor me for a moment.

Let me start with an analogy. Pretend LT were an online game and everyone wanted some oranges and to get the oranges you had to go through the store. But going through the store took some extra time and someone found a bug through which they could get extra oranges really quick but this was to the detriment of the bigger game. Now, when the game designers noticed this and fixed it, sure you might be disappointed, but you'd realize that you weren't using oranges in the way they were intended and accept it and move on.

From my perspective, everyone who uses/used the profile as the homepage was using the same sort of work around. I would argue that your profile on a site should not function as your homepage. It should function as your face to the world. Now, maybe you like to check "your face" often. Fine, but that's not what it was intended for and usability should focus on what it's intended for.

Now, I may be wrong and maybe Tim wants the profile to be something else. And if that's the case then this argument doesn't mean much.

I just want to defend the idea of tightening the navigation. I have no problem with Tim trying to "herd" people into using the site in the way he intended it. I think there are times when he listens to the established users too much, if such a thing is possible.

For example, I really think one of the sets of home/profile sub navigation needs to go. For someone who's new to the site, I think it's going to be confusing to have the identical sub-navigation for two pages that have nothing to do with each other. I'll learn to use it either way.

However, I actually think they need to be split into between "what other users are interested in seeing about me" and "what I'm interested in seeing about myself." First set goes to profile, second set to the homepage.

ETA: In summary, the profile is not top-level navigation worthy and should stop being treated as such by users.

284timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 1:47pm Top

280

Do you know what screen resolution you use? Are you using 600x800?

As a test, do all the tabs "fit" across the page, or do some "fall down" to the next line?

283

I started from your position too. Very much.

Ultimately, how people want to use something is argument enough, though, if their use is not hurting other people's. I'm also convinced there are some features that make the profile very useful as a top-level navigation. I'm not sure I know all of them, but I know some.

I remain interested in figuring out what can "live" on the home page that will make the profile less attractive in comparison. As I see it, the Profile page is inherently limited--in philosophy (external-facing), in space and in programming design. The Home page is inherently modular and therefore unlimited. The profile is a zero-sum game; on the home page everyone can win.

That's the theory. When it hit reality, the theory came up short, and it wasn't worth fighting.

I agree that the two-headed navigation is confusing. I can't see any way around it that doesn't make X% of users hopping mad.

285OsideNative
Jun 22, 2008, 1:49pm Top

>281 infiniteletters:
That might work.

>280 OsideNative:
To be specific:

Edit Pop-Ups that are usable (Save & Cancel buttons show):

Talk
Members With Your Books
Popular This Month
Recently Added by Other Members
On This Day (barely, the top of the buttons show but not the words)

Edit Pop-Ups that are NOT usable (Save & Cancel buttons do not show):

Recently Added
Recent Recommendations
Connection News
Local Events
Your Zeitgeist
Hot Reviews

(And, as mentioned, unable to make Member Recommendations because the buttons don't show on that either)

286DanoWins
Jun 22, 2008, 1:51pm Top

>283 twomoredays:
I'm the type that adds a second or third page to my normal ISP homepage. I like lots of pages...maybe I feel that I'm just keeping up to date better by doing that or something. Whatever the case, I like more pages. I don't see any reason that anything should be taken away or cut out. I'm sure I'm in a minority, but I happen to like a lot of pages...I enjoy more navigating around. I'm in no hurry to get to Talk, or Add Books or my tags page. A few extra clicks are fine by me, and even desireable. I like to click.

I'm sure that if some think that others have developed a "work around", then perhaps you can also develop a "work around". I like my homepage and my profile page. I want them both.

287OsideNative
Jun 22, 2008, 1:55pm Top

>284 timspalding:

All the Tabs fit on one line.

My screen resolution is set at 1024 x 768.

288rsterling
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 1:57pm Top

284 - re modular vs. static / homepage vs. profile: I actually think people might enjoy having the option to make the profile - their public face - more dynamic too: as long as they had control over what went there, and could make it more or less "busy" according to their preference. Some people who have figured out how have added maps, images to the books they're currently reading, etc. (And some of the younger users plaster their profiles with a mosaic of images.) Members - at least a sizeable number - like to tend to their public face. I'd love to see the option to add something like the blog widgets (for currently reading, recently read, etc. - linked to collections) or, even better, ajax-powered modules (if that's the right terminology) like those we can now see on the homepage. The specific content, of course, is a matter of debate, but I suspect that what might be popular would be something like the images for recently added books (like on the homepage), or something similar for currently reading, when collections come.

289DanoWins
Jun 22, 2008, 2:09pm Top

rsterling,
I like that idea. I've figured out how to get my map on my profile, but I'd like to do a currently reading widget or something like that. I don't know how people put the pictures of what they are currently reading on the profile and a widget (or even just some instruction) would be handy.

290Katissima
Jun 22, 2008, 2:14pm Top

Can we have a message pop up on the home page that says when you (I) have a new comment? Then I wouldn't have to ever go to my profile unless I had a comment or wanting to change something.

291monarchi
Jun 22, 2008, 2:15pm Top

#290 It already does. It doesn't actually show the comment, but you get a little "you have a comment" flag in the top module, next to your username.

292twomoredays
Jun 22, 2008, 2:15pm Top

>284 timspalding:
I agree that the two-headed navigation is confusing. I can't see any way around it that doesn't make X% of users hopping mad.

I think part of the problem is that there's a big grey area for a lot of the sub-navigation. I really couldn't imagine caring about someone else's recommendations but there are some people who do and would want that link from the profile. Same issue for statistics, tag clouds, etc.

>286 DanoWins:
Oh, I like both my profile and the home page. I'm not really in need of a work around for anything. I just think that some people don't seem to realize that they are manipulating pages into being something they're not. Just to be clear, I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with that behavior. I just think it's unfair to expect the UI to encourage/support them. If you want to make your profile your home page then go ahead. I just don't think you should expect LT to treat it that way.

293DanoWins
Jun 22, 2008, 2:19pm Top

>292 twomoredays:
No, I don't expect LT to exactly cater to me and my whims. I just like a lot of pages...I feel like I'm getting more tools that way (Not exactly Tech-savvy, this guy) so any stuff to play with is fine and fun by me :)

294LolaWalser
Jun 22, 2008, 2:42pm Top

Tim, I'm slightly incredulous I have to post this, so ridiculous I find the argument, but if you EVER agreed with #283...

How does one "misuse" a webpage, or a website? We click on stuff--we click on stuff we find interesting, in the sequence that makes sense to us because of whatever we are doing. Perhaps everybody else who doesn't use the profile like I or others do is "misusing" it?

Clearly, the point is that LT is a rich site, offering many ways of navigation, accommodating many uses, and satisfying different configurations of interests. I can see no earthly reason nor way to decide which uses or what interests are the "correct" ones and which are not. If my use isn't interfering with yours, why do you want to impose yours on me?

And, the vote for "herding" people. I'm trying to come up with a more repellent idea, and failing. True, we accommodate to what is there, to what is possible--but it is much harder to do once you lose something, that hasn't been replaced with anything better. How would one not resent being forced through a certain channel, even if it weren't expressed so disgustingly?

We are neither sheep nor fools. Please don't decide for me what I ought to be interested in or try to "herd" me. If you're interested in a particular use of LT that's different from yours, we can discuss the differences and the attractions, but don't tell us it's a "misuse". Seriously now.

295twomoredays
Jun 22, 2008, 3:00pm Top

>294 LolaWalser:

Ok, I can see that some of the vocabulary is incendiary to you. Setting that aside, you're not really addressing my bigger point.

Like I said earlier, it's not that I think people shouldn't be able to use the profile in any way the site will allow them to, but why do you expect LT to support you using it in a way other than it was intended?

I have no interest in stopping anyone from using the profile as homepage. I realize I may have worded my earlier post in a way that made it seem as if I did. I regret that. But what I really want to know is why you think that your non-mainstream (is that a better term than "misuse"?) use of the profile deserves to be reflected in the navigation of the site?

Also, why do you think the developers of LT shouldn't be able to present the site in a way that directs users toward features they think are important? And why shouldn't they control their site's traffic? Do you resent stoplights? Well they "herd" you, also.

296LolaWalser
Jun 22, 2008, 3:19pm Top

#294

You have to stop and think about your assumptions for a second. What's the "intended" way of using the profile? What's "not"? Who decides? I can't make it "do" what the designers didn't put in there, so maybe you should take it up with them?

Don't get stuck on the profile-as-home page metaphor, you may be misled by semantics to think one is supposed to replace the other. Not from my side (although Tim has clearly expressed the desire to replace profile use by the home page). In the end, I don't care what a page is called. I care about what it offers, what it enables me to do, and finally, what it looks like. For my purposes, in regard to all three points, profile wins over the new home page.

I have no interest in stopping anyone from using the profile as homepage

That's very gracious of you, but unnecessary, since there's no way in hell you can stop me or make me do anything.

why you think that your non-mainstream (is that a better term than "misuse"?) use of the profile deserves to be reflected in the navigation of the site?

And again with the assumptions. Why is my use "non-mainstream", and what does being "non-mainstream" imply? My use "deserves" whatever does yours, and since my use has been supported for the past one and a half year, I think any externally-forced changes to it "deserve" a hefty explanation and defense, not to mention compensation and retribution. But luckily we have all been appeased, haven't we.

Your last paragraph introduces a straw man and doesn't apply to anything I said or discussed with Tim, so you'll excuse me if I skip it.

297rsterling
Jun 22, 2008, 3:21pm Top

295. I think a lot of people *have* been using the profile as their main LT page; I doubt this is non-mainstream. It also has also had prominence within the top-level nav since the beginning (and I think used to be at the very left, but I can't remember), so it is not inconceivable - and it's even likely - that many people always understood that the profile *was* intended to be a main/central page within the site, and used it accordingly.

But I'm not sure I see the point of extending this discussion, since Tim resolved the problem (by listening to users' feedback and restoring the profile tab). There will always be different opinions on how a site is best navigated or designed: everyone will never agree. This particular navigational issue, however, seems to have been resolved in a way that satisfied those for whom it mattered. I appreciate how open LT is to user criticism, feedback, and suggestions, and how often LT staff members are willing to accommodate those and learn more about how members use the site. So, on this particular issue, shouldn't we just move on?

298Katissima
Jun 22, 2008, 3:37pm Top

297: Hear Hear!

299twomoredays
Jun 22, 2008, 3:47pm Top

And again with the assumptions. Why is my use "non-mainstream", and what does being "non-mainstream" imply? My use "deserves" whatever does yours, and since my use has been supported for the past one and a half year, I think any externally-forced changes to it "deserve" a hefty explanation and defense, not to mention compensation and retribution. But luckily we have all been appeased, haven't we.

A) Maybe everyone's idiosyncratic use deserves equal treatment. Fine. But following that argument: Your use is being reflected in the navigation. Mine is not. How is that equal treatment?

B) I'm just going to set aside mainstream/non-mainstream and use/misuse. There's no real way for either of us to justify either side without data we don't have.

"since my use has been supported for the past one and a half year, I think any externally-forced changes to it..."

C) It's not like the profile disappeared. Is having the navigation reflect the intention of a profile somehow interfering with your ability to use it as something else? How is this suddenly not supporting your use rather than just reflecting the philosophy/intended use?

D) (See bold.) You deserve compensation/retribution because Tim removed a tab? Even speaking hyperbolically isn't that a little extreme? I'll grant you deserve explanation, but beyond that seems, well, insane.

As far as the issue being settled because the tab was added back: I see that as a compromise to a few squeaky wheels. Why don't I have just as much a right to complain about the tab being replaced as you did about having it taken away?

Yes, I can live with the tab there. Just as I imagine you all would have lived without it. No one will permit me to demonstrate why I agreed with the impulse to remove it?

300rsterling
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 3:57pm Top

"Why don't I have just as much a right to complain..." Point taken. Have at it. (Though I prefer the term feedback to complaint.)

301hailelib
Jun 22, 2008, 4:12pm Top

Suddenly I can't stay out of this anymore. In the beginning of LT the only real choices for a 'homepage' were the sign in page and the profile page. As soon as I began leaving my account mostly signed in all the time I bookmarked the Profile page and used it as a jumping off place. Then Talk came and I began using it as a jumping off place. But the only reason this worked for me was because I could get to the Profile from anywhere with just one click. I still go to my profile frequently and use it to get to other libraries I find interesting. I was a bit upset when it looked like the tab was gone for good.

Then I began thinking about it and became even more upset because I really, really want maximum accessibility for the profile of another account I will be managing. So I was greatly relieved when the Profile tab reappeared. I do understand that Tim wishes to keep tabs to a minimum but taking away a popular one is going to create a firestorm and some bad feelings.

302twomoredays
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 4:20pm Top

Yes, feedback is a much nicer way to phrase it.

I also wanted to add that I understand why Tim added the tab back. And I'd understand why he might never want to remove it again. So in that respect, this is not a complaint at all.

It's a vain attempt to try and vent the frustration I have with those who seem to get so upset when LT changes at all.

There are certain reasons for wanting a direct link to the profile that I understand. But sifting through the thread it seemed like so many (NOT ALL) of them were because it was that way and I liked it that way and I'm not going to give anything else a fair chance.

I actually want an austere, minimalist profile page and to have a lot of the functionality shifted away to where I feel it fits better.

Furthermore, it was mentioned at least once that keeping the profile tab would mean another tab would go. In that case keeping the profile tab may actually interfere more than aesthetically with my enjoyment of the site.

However, since even the most dogged advocates seem tired, I can shut up for now.

303LolaWalser
Jun 22, 2008, 4:17pm Top

I'll grant you deserve explanation, but beyond that seems, well, insane.

Charmed by your concern for my sanity, so let me assure you I meant compensation and retribution strictly in the LT sense--take away a feature, replace it with a--better--feature. Certainly not wrangling for gold or Tim's firstborn...

Forgive me, but in my opinion your argument has passed beyond ridiculous, and I won't be continuing this discussion.

304twomoredays
Jun 22, 2008, 4:23pm Top

>303 LolaWalser:
Well, thank you for humoring me as long as you did.

305r.orrison
Jun 22, 2008, 4:29pm Top

301> In the beginning of LT the only real choices for a 'homepage' were the sign in page and the profile page

I've always just used a bookmark to my catalog page as my entry to LibraryThing. After all, I'm here to see the books... I can't imagine why anyone would want to enter the site looking at themselves instead of their books (but obviously some people do).

306Morphidae
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 4:34pm Top

As one of the squeakiest wheels, I'm touching back in because of annoyance about the implication that my reasons are vague. I'm not understanding what is vague about, "I go to it frequently to edit my profile - I edit my picture, I edit my settings, I edit About me and About my library. I'm frequently in Profile to look at my Comments. Yes, I get quite a few, thanks. And no, I don't want to see just the new ones. I look at my Member Connections. I even get a kick out of looking at random books from my library."

The Profile page is my most used feature other than Talk or my Library.

I don't know how much more clear I can get.

P.S. I don't care what the home page is. I can deal with the minor annoyance of the home page as long as I get top line navigation away from it.

307timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 4:43pm Top

So, I don't want to stir people up on either side.

>283 twomoredays:

What I agreed with was the idea that home page and profile should be separate.

If users are "stuck" on using the profile page as their base--if everything they want can be done on the home page, and indeed more--that's a problem. I think there was some of that. But I think that was only part of the reaction. Part of the reaction went beyond that, and could not be ignored.

Ultimately, my goal was to separate home page from profile page, to separate your account, "your stuff," from the stuff you show the world. That I have done. Certain functionality, like upgrading your account, no longer lives on the profile, because the profile is no longer designed to do both account management and external-facing presentation. This split is both extremely common online and actually sensible. There is a difference between the two concepts that most will grasp and indeed want to see maintained.

I agreed to bring back the profile tab for two reasons, other than mortal fear. First, the transition was not complete. Messaging in particular has stayed with the profile, making it pretty irritating to send messages around the site. Second, many members wanted quick access to their profile *as* a profile. They wanted to track and manage their identity as others saw it. I get that, and should have gotten it right away. Whether some members' request for easy access to static info belongs to #1 or #2 I can't decide, but either way it's understandable.)

Going forward, I'm going to treat the home page and profile as separate entities--one for your account and news, and one for how you look to others. When a new homepage-worthy feature arrives—imagine some sort of account-preferences feature, or a new system of alerts—I will not be putting it on the profile any more than I will be putting it in the catalog. Besides being averse to doing double the work, the profile page is a much more challenging design environment. 75% is filled with static external-facing content, and parts get swapped in and out depending on who's looking at it.

308hailelib
Jun 22, 2008, 5:02pm Top

I do want to add that while I want the Profile to be very easy to get to I really like the homepage and will be using it a lot as well.

309timspalding
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 5:11pm Top

Certainly not wrangling for gold or Tim's firstborn...

Stay away from my first born. I know he's cute. (I should never have posed him in the lamb outit!)

As one of the squeakiest wheels, I'm touching back in because of annoyance about the implication that my reasons are vague. I'm not understanding what is vague about, "I go to it frequently to edit my profile - I edit my picture, I edit my settings, I edit About me and About my library. I'm frequently in Profile to look at my Comments. Yes, I get quite a few, thanks. And no, I don't want to see just the new ones. I look at my Member Connections. I even get a kick out of looking at random books from my library."

See message above. I think you hit the two areas that I understand. To some degree, that understanding had to dawn on me, I suppose.

First, you have functionality that isn't available on the home page (eg., messaging) and second you have a desire to interact with your external presence easily. The former could, I think, be at least partially moved over to the home page. For example, I think the home page--as an easy jumping-off place for the site--should list your friends. But I'm not sure all of it could. Anyway, the second--profile viewing and management--cannot.

The Profile page is my most used feature other than Talk or my Library.

I don't know how much more clear I can get.

P.S. I don't care what the home page is. I can deal with the minor annoyance of the home page as long as I get top line navigation away from it.


Ultimately this is where I get off the train. The profile isn't a feature at all. It is a large, diverse collection of data and functionality--the culmination of many choices and compromises. Over time, the profile has swerved back and forth between "profile" and "home page" functionality--between how you look and what you want to do--and the tension between the two was strong.

Notably, the "edit profile" still embodies this tension. Some of "edit profile" is about your profile (eg., picture). Some is about your account preferences (eg., get email updates?). This was and is confusing. Members looked for a way to edit preferences and found none, because the distinction between internal and external were blurred—and there was even another preferences page, the catalog preferences. This will be changing soon, with separate (but organizationally associated) pages to edit your profile and your account.

When I see "The Profile page is my most used feature" and "I don't care what the home page is," I am sorely tempted to change the titles of the two pages, so that home page is profile and profile is home page, to drive home the point that your preference is about what you want, not about what page you visit.

Now you *did* explain that preference more fully. I appreciate that. And from that I understood why removing the profile tab would be a hardship. I hope you can understand that I needed to reach that understanding with you and with other members.

310twomoredays
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 5:12pm Top

>306 Morphidae:
Morphidae, I understand all those reasons for wanting the profile tab back. I think you've always been very clear in why you do/don't like something. I'm sorry if you felt I implied you weren't being.

>307 timspalding:

Thank you for explaining more of the reasons for returning the tab.

I'm at peace with knowing that the profile is going to be treated as a profile and the homepage as a homepage. Now, it seems clear to me that that was where my anxiety lied. (Lay? Laid? I hate that verb.)

For all the others I stirred up in the process, thank you for discussing it. I'm sorry if I upset anyone. I always try to keep in my mind that we all love LT very much and want it to be the best that it can be.

311hailelib
Jun 22, 2008, 5:13pm Top

One of the great things about LT is that our discussions rarely turn into wars although sometimes we have to agree to disagree.

312silverbooks
Jun 22, 2008, 5:16pm Top

Is there a way to opt out of all that info? It looks very nice but I don't want my recently added or connections with other people who have the same book. I want to opt out asap .I'll try setting on private maybe that will work?

313stephmo
Jun 22, 2008, 5:20pm Top

>312 silverbooks: - It's been mentioned numerous times in the thread - and is in HUGE, bold red letters in message #152 that you really have to basically go "I'm not reading or scrolling through anything and just hitting 'reply' as soon as the thread opens..."

The modules will all be customizable soon - and you'll be able to delete anything you want from your home page (which only you can see, by the by).

314Morphidae
Jun 22, 2008, 5:25pm Top

>309 timspalding: I think if you look at my likes and dislikes about the home page on the other thread, it may show why I don't have a lot of use for a "home page." I'm not all that interested in "internal" data. I want pretty pictures and some book recommendations. Announcements and notices about blog entries are nice. Everything else I can get with top line navigation or I plain just don't use.

315Morphidae
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 5:27pm Top

>313 stephmo: S/he is referring to, I believe, not wanting his/her books to show up in other people's homepages in those categories. Maybe. That's how I read it.

316timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 5:26pm Top

Thanks I saw that, and I appreciate the feedback. Maybe I can make a special module for getting you off the homepage faster :)

317Morphidae
Jun 22, 2008, 5:27pm Top

318Heather19
Jun 22, 2008, 5:30pm Top

*supresses giggling for Tim's benifit* :)

279: Aaaand yet another thing I love about LT. Even in heated arguments and discussions that may get more emotional then need be, you still take the time to address us as fellow humans (instead of talking down to us as I've seen developers do on other sites), and actually explain the process and the way you are thinking, to help us understand better. LOVE it!

283: I love the whole game and oranges analogy. Totally wonderful. And, while I don't nessecerily agree, I can definitely understand your point. And, to a certain extent, agree that users can/will/should adapt to changes made IF they are for the overall good. (ie, I technically would've eventually adapted to the loss of the Profile tab, but my adapting would have to mean losing one of my favorite parts of LT, which is the profile)

302: "it was that way and I liked it that way and I'm not going to give anything else a fair chance."
..... Oh crap. So you saw through me, huh? lol After all that arguing last night, when I finally stepped back and thought about it more rationally, yeah that's pretty much what it came down to. I was upset and the extra clicks/time to get to the profile, but the fact that I wanted so badly to get to the profile so easily... Yeah, I guess it could be described the way you did.

319bnielsen
Jun 22, 2008, 5:31pm Top

I like the new home page, it adds stuff that I can't easily find elsewhere. But it doesn't replace my profile because I can add things to my profile like links to other parts of LT that are still hiding in remote corners of LT.
So the profile is useful, because I can add stuff and have it be a part of LT. I considered using the wikipage for this, but I'm not happy with some of the restrictions on the html there and it seems like a more remote corner of LT, so I'm just experimenting with it.

I think #293 is right in many ways, because some of the things I do on my profile are just patches on broken parts of the user interface. But I like the fact, that I _can_ put in these patches, so keeping the profile within easy reach is fine with me.

320stephmo
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 5:35pm Top

>315 Morphidae: Then that means they were okay with it appearing on profile pages - which makes absolutely no sense...

Sorry for seeming terse, but I've seen more messages about "I want this part of the feature gone ASAP!" and the LT team has been more than gracious about letting everyone know that these modules will be completely customizable.

There's been a lot of knee-jerking over this feature and to have people just want to get their "but I want this gone!" without even bothering to skim this thread, the 2nd thread (which has it mentioned again in post #1) or in the blog (which can be reached from the blog, the announcement on the home page or from the blog link on the home page...

Well, it's annoying. I'd prefer to see those stop because it's hard to take someone seriously when they demand immediate attention but refuse to take 3 minutes to look around to make sure that in 500+ posts something might have potentially been covered.

If it's truly about not wanting others to see your book, then I don't know what to say - people have always been able to see shared books.

ETA - The thing that I appreciate the next day (today) is that some good things are cropping up about things people want to see on the home page and finding bugs and ways to improve it - I just hate to see these requests flooded with something that was addressed 300 posts ago. /grumble!

321Morphidae
Jun 22, 2008, 5:35pm Top

>320 stephmo: You are probably right. It was a rather confusing post.

322twomoredays
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 5:46pm Top

>320 stephmo:

I wish there was a virtual island to which we could send people who don't read threads at all. It's a serious pet peeve.

I made myself read every single post on this thread (though I have to admit to some skimming on the second) before I posted. I recognize that not everyone is going to do the same, but is reading the first post really too much to ask?

Edited: For grammar's sake.

323tiffin
Jun 22, 2008, 5:54pm Top

1. won't ever/will rarely use the homepage and and am very glad that the Profile tab is back
2. don't go to the profile page to "look at my face" as was implied somewhere up there but to get messages from various LT connections in the groups I frequent and use connections from there
3. Like Morphidae, I like to update photos, put comments, change things, to keep things interesting for guests who drop by - same reason I vacuum and do the dishes now and then ;)
4. am deffo not a tech head and don't care a fig if we have bells or whistles but appreciate that some people do like that stuff - chacun a son gout and all that
5. when change serves a purpose and is useful, great, otherwise pffffft - in me 'umble opinion, of course - so if this change serves a useful purpose for certain LT members, fine. The profile tab serves a useful purpose for me and thanks very much for putting it back, Tim.

324laytonwoman3rd
Jun 22, 2008, 6:15pm Top

Without looking at everyone's profile to see how long they've been using LT (I do recognize some very early members by name here), I just observe that, as Lolawalser said, using the profile as a homepage has been my modus operandi since I joined LT in December of 2005. That, by itself, makes this leap to a "new" homepage a bit skeery. It's like buying a new car, which I've also just done. Although the functionality is basically the same on the new one, it's not quite second nature to use it. I understood the necessity of a new car, but I haven't quite grasped what was "wrong" with the way I've been using my profile page for 2 1/2 years. I think that's where Tim fumbled the ball a bit--by not realizing how many people would find this a BIG and not necessarily user-friendly upgrade. I'm glad I didn't get into the fray until late this afternoon, or I might have been all up in arms myself. Now that I've read through the thread, I've decided to just sit back and wait for the user-editing to arrive before I pay much attention to the new homepage. My Firefox tab still takes me directly to my profile where I can access everything I want the same way I've grown accustomed to doing it.

But Tim, aren't you thrilled to have such a passionate membership? What if we were all unmoved, one way or the other, by all your hard work?

325timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 6:35pm Top

I want to defend members who don't read threads. Members should read the first post, I think, so they're not asking something completely obvious. But you shouldn't have to read 250 posts in order to give your opinion.

However, since those people won't read this post either, let me add "Curse you, Arrr!"

>324 laytonwoman3rd:

Absolutely. One threads worth of this feedback is more than I've ever had on another project. It's wonderful.

326lorax
Jun 22, 2008, 6:39pm Top

324>

I don't think there's much correlation between length of membership and use of profile-as-homepage, or at least I can match you anecdote for anecdote, and say that I've been here since Sept 2005 and never used my profile as a homepage (I only use it to look at comments or as a shortcut to tags I commonly use); I go straight to my catalog, which is where the interesting-to-me stuff is.

I'm not trying to say "you're doing it wrong", I'm saying that your "the expert users all love the profile as it was" assumption may not be correct.

327twomoredays
Jun 22, 2008, 6:46pm Top

>326 lorax:
While I'm not sure anyone has actually made that assumption, you're right.

I've been around since Feb. of 2006 so it's not like I'm new around here.

328Katissima
Jun 22, 2008, 6:57pm Top

Well, I'm glad everyone is getting along again, and may be the middle of the night Tim's time (EDT) is a bad time to discuss big brand new features :)

259 - Has there been any resolution about profile pictures not working? Mine doesn't load either on my homepage.

329timspalding
Edited: Jun 22, 2008, 8:10pm Top

>328 Katissima:

Katissima, your problem is a malformed JPEG file. It displays on my browser, but it can't be scaled down because it can't be opened. I can't even get Photoshop to open it, so I'm not expecting PHP to do it.

alasen, your problem is that your image has no extension on it—.jpg and etc. I have to see about reading that in from the header of the file. We should be doing that anyway, but we're cheating and looking at the extension.

330LolaWalser
Jun 22, 2008, 9:25pm Top

One threads worth of this feedback is more than I've ever had on another project. It's wonderful.

Bless your sweet heart. :)

(Yeah, your firstborn's safe, devastatingly cute as he is. I was recently offered the opportunity to be a mom to two firstborns and couldn't run fast enough. In the opposite direction.)

If anyone--including Tim, or Tim especially--is interested in continuing the discussion about how different people use LT, I suggest someone start a thread in Site Talk, for instance. If not...

No, just because it's called "profile" it doesn't mean it's a narcissistic shrine to personal fabulousness (that would be my catalogue, of course). I don't look at it to look at my picture (I don't even have my picture on it), I look at it for messages, connections (both Connections and the right-side lists, all of them--that's my top fave and business on LT, outside cataloguing), combining my favourite authors (I do a lot of combining, and I consider a few authors "my" fiefdoms), stats (I add about a 100 books a month so various numbers and data are constantly in flux), my groups, updating my reading list, which I clearly want to be public, although I've chosen to bypass the more attention-grabbing cover-linking approach, and, lastly, looking at the visitor map. Oh--there's also the link to my DVD collection, on Squirl, and the music account on LT (how's THAT for "misusing" LT, ha!)

Bear in mind that until yesterday there was no alternative to parts or all of this. Perhaps the home page will come to replace most of the profile page use for most of members, including myself. Right now it's not happening, and for the way I use LT I need the current profile.

331timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 9:34pm Top

We'll win you over with a combiners module!

(For sure, you're not getting one on the profile...)

332LolaWalser
Jun 22, 2008, 9:41pm Top

Give me 200 members on the MWYB, and you bought half my a..., um, allegiance.

333_Zoe_
Jun 22, 2008, 9:41pm Top

A more focused discussion about how exactly different people use LT would be interesting, and maybe even useful....

334Mr.Durick
Jun 22, 2008, 9:45pm Top

330> You mean that's not you? I thought maybe you were an urban free runner.

I have a profile for the account that houses my library.

When two reasons arose for it, I opened another, so far free, account. It is my anonymous account and houses my wishlist.

I have constructed the profile on rdurick, and there are links there, both as part of the default architecture and as constructed that are for both my visitor and me to click on. Those links are not for the most part on my home page. I need to be able to get to it. I can lose myself in self-fascination on my home page, but mostly that is wasting time not commiting to something productive -- I can do that with the various talk tabs.

On my wishlist account, I have constructed almost nothing on my profile. I still like having my most used tags exposed right there, but it is nowhere as important as on my main account (I still want to get to it quickly). The homepage, however, is very useful. If I spot a recently entered or reviewed book that interests me, I can whisk it right into my wishlist. I can see easily whether I have added a book that recently caught my attention, and a number of other things. The home page is useful to me there.

I do not want to construct the links on two separate pages and probably won't. Some of the automated stuff could be duplicated on the homepage; I'd like all of my groups, and many more of my tags to show up there.

Robert

335Heather19
Jun 22, 2008, 9:46pm Top

331: Oh gosh, if there was a combiners module I'd REALLY never leave that homepage! It's already pulling me in too much! lol

336timspalding
Jun 22, 2008, 10:14pm Top

>333 _Zoe_:

True. But also very hard to interpret insofar as Talk is probably not representative.

337LolaWalser
Jun 22, 2008, 10:39pm Top

Well, we can always just talk, without trying to derive hard stats from it. Short of sending a poll to every signed-up LTer, and assuming most answer and send it back, you can't ever get a representative sample of LT.

338bnielsen
Jun 23, 2008, 1:29am Top

The discussion seems more quiet now (US folks asleep?), so I'll ask Tim a simple question: Which page would you want us to link to from our own webpages? (If you prefer multiple choice: profile, catalogue, home page, wiki page, you don't care, something else?)

339timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 2:56am Top

What do you mean? From an external web page? Most users link to either their profile or their catalog. That seems to make sense to me.

340bnielsen
Jun 23, 2008, 4:14am Top

#339: Exactly. I have a link to my catalogue from every webpage on my site (via an access key, so I just type Alt-L and I'm in my catalogue). I was just wondering what would happen if a lot of us changed that type of links to our new LT home page. And if this was something you had considered. I like the fact that there are several useful entry points but the flip side is that you have to choose :-)

BTW:
I also enjoy being able to put in text, links, even an embedded clock on the profile. That's not possible on my LT home page, afaik ?
The useful entry points are:
My catalogue
My profile
My home page
My wiki page
and they are all quite good, because I can easily go from any of them
to any of the others. Actually I think the wiki page is two clicks away from my LT home page, so that makes the LT home page a bad choice.

341klarusu
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 4:42am Top

Well, I've played about with the new homepage all weekend and (having already decided that I liked it in the beginning) can now say with great gusto that one you can add and remove elements it will be practically perfect in every way. Particularly, I love the fact that when I log on, I now get a module that links to 'Talk' straight away because I'm a sucker for checking what's going on in my groups. I also love the fact that the piccie links to the profile. I can't say that I'll be using the profile tag but it doesn't bug me either so if it makes others happy (actually, I take that back, I'm glad you've kept it because now when I want to jump straight from my library to my profile, I can do it without having to go via the homepage - I often do that to amend my 'Currently Reading' etc.)..... I've already got used to the new tag arrangement and actually find that I tend to link to things like 'Talk' from the profile page link now anyway.

Thanks Tim & crew for making me love LT even more!

342markbarnes
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 4:42am Top

Having read most of this discussion, let me summarise:

(1) Some people like to use their profile as their portal into Librarything.

(2) The profile was actually designed as a public profile. As a result, it didn't make a very good portal.

(3) Tim decided to create a new portal (called Home) that would allow the profile page to concentrate on showing information about me to other users. The new home page would concentrate on showing information to me about my own actions and other things LT thought I'd be interested in.

(4) Tim promised that the new portal would be editable and people could remove things they didn't like. He suggested he may add extra things if people would find them helpful.

(5) Some people demanded the return of the profile page.

(6) Others suggested this wasn't really necessary because by removing elements you didn't like from the home page, and adding new elements in (when this functionality became possible) you could set up your home page to act like your profile page.

Discussion over?

343christiguc
Jun 23, 2008, 9:46am Top

Well, I would add

(7) Tim returned the profile page.

344twomoredays
Jun 23, 2008, 9:56am Top

The profile page itself never went anywhere. The tab did.

345LolaWalser
Jun 23, 2008, 10:04am Top

The profile was actually designed as a public profile. As a result, it didn't make a very good portal.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. What are the characteristics of a "good portal", and how do you compute adequacy taking in account the diverse interests of different people? For example, the new home page holds almost zero interest to me--does this make it a bad portal? Or just a bad portal for me?

you could set up your home page to act like your profile page.

The home page is private.

346nperrin
Jun 23, 2008, 10:10am Top

340: bnielsen, the new home page is private. Only you can see your own home page, so you probably won't want to link to it from any external sites.

347_Zoe_
Jun 23, 2008, 10:15am Top

(1) Some people like to use their profile as their portal into Librarything.

I feel like a lot of the discussion has focused on this, but it's not really the case at all, at least for me. Just because there's a page I go to frequently doesn't mean it's my "portal" to LT. My profile isn't the first thing I look at when I come to the site; I don't even look at my profile every time I'm here. However, I do look at my profile enough that I'd like a quick and direct way to get to it.

Why is there all this emphasis on the "portal"? Most people weren't saying they wanted to use the profile as a substitute for the home page; they were just saying that the home page wasn't a substitute for the profile. They're two different pages that serve different functions (one is public and one is private; one contains more static information and one contains more dynamic information, though it seems like this second distinction may soon be lost). I'm not sure why we should have to choose between one or the other.

348LolaWalser
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 10:41am Top

#347

Most people weren't saying they wanted to use the profile as a substitute for the home page; they were just saying that the home page wasn't a substitute for the profile.

Exactly. I was explicit about this (again, and again).

one contains more static information and one contains more dynamic information,

I've been thinking about the different facets of the profile page, and it seems to me there's undue emphasis on the "staticness" of certain boxes*. The profile is a communication hub--assuming one is open to communication, one wants access to the communication hub from wherever. (And, speaking of dynamism, communication certainly introduces it to this page!)

*The lists we make may be static, but the MWYB reflects change all the time. Perhaps in different degrees to different people, but it does, in numbers of books added and shared, in sequence of similar libraries, as well as appearance of new ones. Moreover, the tail of the list is much more dynamic than the head--something that the recent shortening of the list affected, but is still noticeable.

Of course, if one doesn't care about MWYB it's all moot--the point is that to others things ARE happening there.

I also don't get why dynamic modules are supposed to be some sort of boon in and of themselves. The first thing to consider is whether I'm interested in the data they present, whether they are useful to me or not. If not, I don't care if they can somersault and make omelettes.

349markbarnes
Jun 23, 2008, 10:40am Top

>Lola: It didn't make a good portal because it wasn't designed to serve as a gateway into the site. If it made a good portal for you, great. But that's luck, not judgement.

Whether your homepage is public or private is irrelevant as to whether you can set up your homepage to act like your profile page. Your profile page is useful to you because of the information that's on it, not because it's called "Profile". If you could populate the home page with all the information that's on the profile page, and remove all the information you didn't want, then your home page will be as useful as your profile page, won't it?

All I'm saying is that one page is designed to give information about us (our profile), and one page is designed to give information to us (our home page). Those are two different functions, and therefore having two different pages make sense.

Tim, I wonder whether clicking on our username should take us to our profile? That way there is quick access to it from every page, but it doesn't take up another tab.

350LolaWalser
Jun 23, 2008, 10:46am Top

#349

I'll be lazy (we lucky people in general can dispense with overmuch work) and refer you to Zoe's #347 about the nuances of language, thought and usage. Whether the page was a good "portal" or not has as much relevance to my LT use as whether it's a good saddle.

For the rest, it seems to me you're stating the obvious, things no one ever contested.

351LolaWalser
Jun 23, 2008, 10:59am Top

Actually, let me amend #350--no, transferring (even all) functions from the profile to the home page will not make the latter preferable.

Again, the two pages are different, serving different functions. I happen to prefer the configuration of features (including the HTML editability) and the public nature of the profile to what's on the home page. I also happen to prefer the profile visually.

Now, I'd genuinely like to know: why would anyone care? Why would anyone want me to look at the home page?

352rsterling
Edited: Jun 27, 2008, 12:20am Top

340 - I think if people started using the link to their homepage on their external websites, it would be fine. As far as I can tell, since the personalized homepage is private, that URL redirects everyone else (except you) to your profile instead. Try it by typing any other user's name at the end of this URL - www.librarything.com/home/

349 and others> I think this has all been covered earlier in this thread, but to recap: The profile page is useful for a number of different reasons for different people, and no doubt to different degrees. Part of that is because of the information that's on it, and part of it is because it is the "public face" - the way that others see you on LT. That means, as LolaWalser says, that it functions partly as a communication hub. And I think even if all messaging functions were also transfered to the new homepage (as they might be, who knows), the profile will still have a function because that is the place that other people go when they want to learn about you or make contact with you. So, some people want (to continue to have) easy, quick access to the page so that they can continue to 1) use their page to access whatever information or links might be there, and 2) update the information that is there for other people to see about them, among other things. The profile tab, as distinct from the page, was restored to give/restore 1-click access to their profile from every other page on the site, without having to go through some other page first.

(edited for grammar fix)

353pivox
Jun 23, 2008, 1:02pm Top

I realize I hadn't understood the idea behind the new home page and I was afraid the profile page would ultimately go away. I see I was wrong.

:-)

I just hope that the profile page will keep it's ability for individualisation (for instance being able to do some html to add covers of books you are currently reading and other links you would like people to see when visiting, adding a visitor map, etc.). I don't know whether that was intended at the beginning, but I thinks it's really great that when you visit other member's profile page you don't keep seeing over and over again the exact same layout, infos and links.

One feature on the home page would be quite interesting to have on the profile page:

the recently added feature. I'd like visitors to be able to see what I have recently added to my library. It would be even better if you could choose to display "Recently read", "Currently reading", "Recently reviewed" etc.

I do have my recently read books listed as well as the currently reading one, but I have to do it all with code in order to update it.

354rsterling
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 3:54pm Top

353 - ooh, you just gave me an idea! It's possible to copy the source code from the homepage for the images in "Recently Added" and paste it into your profile. Just tried it. Much faster than typing it all in myself.

(Clarification: this will only work for static stuff, images and/or texts, and doesn't update. It just saves some time typing in the long html for a href="..." img src=, etc.)

355LolaWalser
Jun 23, 2008, 3:23pm Top

#354

Very! Cool!

Is there the source code for "Recently Added To LT" too? Right-click view source on the module?

hahahahaha!

We're in ur homepage, stealing your modules!!

356sabreuse
Jun 23, 2008, 3:26pm Top

Nice one, rsterling!

357LolaWalser
Jun 23, 2008, 3:42pm Top

Awwww! I pasted the Recently Added by Other members into my profile but it isn't refreshing! Did I miss some bit of script, or what? The links (to members and books) work fine.

358rsterling
Jun 23, 2008, 3:46pm Top

I just went to show source code in firefox, and scrolled down until I found the right section of the page.

It might not be as cool as you think, since it's completely static. I guess you could copy most things off the page, but they wouldn't be dynamic, and they might not look the same as on the homepage, because of the way that one is generated. We only see the source code for the resulting page, not for generating it, if that makes sense. Basically, whatever you copy and paste would just be a snapshot of what was there when you copied it, so you'd need to update that copy-and-paste exercise periodically. So this probably works better for things that don't change *that* often (like the latest books I've added), rather than stuff like Recently added to LT, which changes constantly (and so anything copied and pasted would quickly go out of date).

I hope that once collections come along, there will be some way to incorporate more dynamic content (like the blog widgets or better) onto the profile: for currently reading, etc.

359rsterling
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 3:51pm Top

357 - yeah, unfortunately, the stuff that makes it refresh is all done behind the scenes, so to speak, with something called ajax, I think Tim said. Unfortunately, my web design knowledge stops with basic, static html, and doubly unfortunately, I think all we could copy would be static snapshots of that html.

I just wanted to copy and paste the pretty pictures (the cover images)...:)

360LolaWalser
Jun 23, 2008, 3:55pm Top

Ah, behind the scene wizardry! Should've known he wouldn't let us so easy at them! :)

361timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 3:56pm Top

Yeah, at present there's no way to make it live like that. I think it's a good idea, needless to say. We also want to make each one of the home widgets optionally detachable, so you can put them on your web page or blog.

362rsterling
Jun 23, 2008, 3:58pm Top

detachable - Great idea!

363timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 4:00pm Top

I know. I almost dropped the soap when I thought of that one. :)

364DaynaRT
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 4:03pm Top

detachable

dropped the soap

There's a song you two should hear.....

365rsterling
Jun 23, 2008, 4:15pm Top

You've a strange sense of humor. I appreciate strange senses of humor. (Tee-hee, I remember that song. Feeling old now.)

366DaynaRT
Jun 23, 2008, 4:17pm Top

I met my husband because of that song.

367LucindaLibri
Jun 23, 2008, 4:23pm Top

I'm one of the 5%. Old, nearsighted, old monitor--prefer 800x600. I had no problem with the old version of LT (I could scroll to the parts not immediately visible). But this new version just scrunches things together so that in 800x600 some parts unreadable and unusable. I would rather do the scrolling . . .

You were just about to get my lifetime membership, but now I'll have to figure out if I can still use this thing . . . sorry for being an old fuddy-duddy.

368Noisy
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 4:41pm Top

>354 rsterling:

Oooh yes. Thanks from me as well. Luckily I add books in batches, so I don't really need to have it automatically updating the set.

I've added instructions on how to do this on my profile page. If anyone finds a mistake, can they let me know (using a non-private message, so that I don't get bombarded).

369rsterling
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 4:37pm Top

RE 367 and similar problems. Tim, are you using fixed widths for the 2 main columns? When I make my window size smaller or resolution larger, I notice that the right hand column goes off the right side of the screen. (It doesn't scrunch together with the other columns, though - but the subnav links do overlap with large fonts/resolution.) Would it be possible to make these columns widths be percentages and/or minimum widths (with the minimum pretty small, for that 5%)?

Also, is it my imagination, or did the right hand column get wider (and would it be better if it were narrower, closer to the size of the right column on the profiles?)?

370Talbin
Jun 23, 2008, 4:38pm Top

>369 rsterling: Also, is it my imagination, or did the right hand column get wider . . . ?

Good, it wasn't just me! ;)

I liked it better the other way. I am more interested in the information in the left column, less interested in the information in the right column.

371sabreuse
Jun 23, 2008, 4:53pm Top

And speaking of the two columns, can the font please (pretty please?) be the same size in both? The 1px difference between them is just enough to be disconcerting without being enough to look obviously deliberate.

372timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 5:01pm Top

>369 rsterling:

The sizing is 65%/35%, with 22 points of right padding on the left. But one or more of the modules is showing some static size. I'll have to play with it to figure out which.

373timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 5:02pm Top

>371 sabreuse:

What browser and OS. It looks deliberate on mine—also because I deliberate-ed it—but font size is very OS-dependent.

T

374sabreuse
Jun 23, 2008, 5:11pm Top

Mac OS 10.5, both Firefox and Safari.

It looks to me like a difference between tiny and just a tiny hair tinier -- the tiny is actually on the edge of too tiny for me, but I can deal with that by resizing if I decide that it feels like too tiny. The differential has me reaching for the obnoxious user stylesheet extensions, because it looks just a little off.

375timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 5:12pm Top

>372 timspalding:

It's the quote piece. (Process of elimination.) I'm working to see how.

376timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 5:15pm Top

Aaah. It's the URL. URLs don't split. I'll get that fixed.

377mckait
Jun 23, 2008, 5:16pm Top

Mine is loading wicked slow. I logged in, and it is now my homepage. I went to the kitchen and stirred dinner and poured a coke, came back and It was still loading. It did the same thing this morning. If I click on talk, and open home in a new tab, it opens faster. I have run XP, FireFox and have no issues with other sites LT is often the slowest of all the sites I use. Why is that anyway??

378timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 5:22pm Top

I just hit yours. It came up in half a second. Something is odd. Did the page ever load or did it load forever? (If so, it probably wasn't loading at all.)

379rsterling
Jun 23, 2008, 5:34pm Top

65%/35% - is that different from before? I'd prefer the right column to be narrower than it is.

On the overlap problem with smaller screens/windows and larger fonts and resolutions: could you move "find friends" and "blog widgets" somewhere else - perhaps the silver box, or the pink header above tabs on the right - or else force them to move to another line if they would collide with the subnav on the left?

380mckait
Jun 23, 2008, 5:37pm Top

mine? Nope didn't load until I closed it and then opened it from talk in another tab...this morning and now..

Once loaded it opens fine the next time, but seems to be only if I get to it from somewhere else
:(

381mckait
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 6:16pm Top

I do like that homepage though! I like having all of that info right in front of me first thing.

I also like to change up my profile and so am glad I can get there easily, thanks for that!

382timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 6:18pm Top

>379 rsterling:

The size problem is the URL in the reviews area. URLs don't wrap. I'm working to elide part of the URL when displayed visually.

McKait. I'm unsure if it's "really" loading at all. Incidentally, next time this happens, see if the red "loading" area at the top-right is on or not.

T

383infiniteletters
Jun 23, 2008, 6:22pm Top

382: If it seems to stall, should we just try reloading it?

384timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 6:24pm Top

Yeah. I'm thinking about how to signal a real problem.

385rsterling
Jun 23, 2008, 6:34pm Top

382 - ah yes, sorry, I misread something earlier and thought you'd already fixed the URL thing. My bad. Thanks!

386twomoredays
Jun 23, 2008, 6:44pm Top

We're in ur homepage, stealing your modules!!

Will someone with cats please make an lolcat out of that and share it somewhere? I'm picturing a couple of cats and the LT homepage.

Please?

387mckait
Jun 23, 2008, 6:46pm Top

will do Tim, thanks!

388infiniteletters
Jun 23, 2008, 7:07pm Top

384: Maybe a loading timer, with an error logged at 2 minutes or something? Or does the home page only load within the browser instead of the site?

389sqdancer
Jun 23, 2008, 7:24pm Top

re: Message 379
On the overlap problem with smaller screens/windows and larger fonts and resolutions: could you move "find friends" and "blog widgets" somewhere else - perhaps the silver box, or the pink header above tabs on the right - or else force them to move to another line if they would collide with the subnav on the left?

Yes, please! If you could spread/wrap it to a second line, it would be very helpful. As it stands, some of the links are unusable.

390OsideNative
Jun 23, 2008, 8:20pm Top

>284 timspalding:
Re: edit buttons

Hope you saw my response in 287. Thanks.

391bnielsen
Jun 23, 2008, 8:32pm Top

#346: I almost agree. However the home page redirects to the profile if you try to access the home page of someone else.
(Except for Tim that is). So you could argue that the home page would be a better way to link to your profile? I don't know, so that's why I asked.

392JacInABook
Jun 23, 2008, 8:41pm Top

The Local Module has ceased to work, on my page at least. It says

"No location supplied
Edit your location using the pencil icon in the header of this module."

But the location, radius and the check box are all as they should be and location appears on my profile and links to the local page.

393rsterling
Jun 23, 2008, 8:46pm Top

392 - I had this problem earlier on the French site, when my location wasn't sticking. It seemed to rectify itself after a few tries. It might have been because I tried to edit it (slightly differently) both in homepage and in Local, and perhaps the site wasn't sure which to use. I can't remember how I got it to work.

394JacInABook
Jun 23, 2008, 8:49pm Top

I hadn't touched it though. I just noticed that my local events weren't showing up and had a closer look.

I can get to Birmingham, UK, local from my profile link but when I click the local tab it just takes me to the default Boston page. Strange.

395timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 8:53pm Top

>Local

Told Chris.

396timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 8:56pm Top

376

The URLs are now chopping, so the right side should be sized correctly for members.

397timspalding
Jun 23, 2008, 9:09pm Top

I upped the size of the text on the right, so it's the same as the left. Do people like it better or worse?

398sabreuse
Jun 23, 2008, 9:13pm Top

>397 timspalding:, much better for me (but that's hardly a surprise!). Thanks!

399JacInABook
Edited: Jun 23, 2008, 9:18pm Top

It looks balanced, but not sure if it's the size of text or because of the size of the right column. Either way it's good.

ETA - Of course it might just be that I'm used to it because I've been seeing it so much tonight.

400twomoredays
Jun 23, 2008, 9:33pm Top

I didn't even realize the slightly-smaller text until I noticed how much better it looks now.

401jjmcgaffey
Jun 23, 2008, 9:52pm Top

Oh yeah. Much better. Both much easier to read and more balanced-looking. I didn't notice the difference until sabreuse pointed it out, but I did notice it was harder to read stuff on the right than on the left.

402bnielsen
Edited: Jun 24, 2008, 6:25am Top

Yes, much better. A few more comments:
The years in "On this day" are a bit too faint on one of my browser/computer/screens combinations. I'd prefer them in plain black.
"Talk posts" links to
http://www.librarything.com/talk?mode=yourposts
which apparently is whatever I last selected for talk, i.e. could be any of yourstarred, yourposts, yourbooks etc.
So I think you should either link just to
http://www.librarything.com/talk.php
or make the other link do what it seems it should do.

PS "On this day" should mention which day it thinks it is, because your "this day" might not be my "this day" because of different timezones. Or is it javascripted to use my local time?

403jjmcgaffey
Jun 24, 2008, 3:34pm Top

This is probably a Local bug/oddity rather than a Homepage one, but Homepage is where I saw it. Yesterday, on my home computer, I changed my radius to 5 miles (leaving my location the same), clicked OK (or whatever the button is that closes the lightbox) and got no events - as expected and correct. Today I opened LT on my work computer and saw a bunch of events in the Local panel on the homepage - they were outside the 5 mile radius (and places I don't go, not useful). So I clicked on Edit to correct it - but it was already correct. In the lightbox, my radius was 5 miles. So I clicked OK (without changing anything) - and got (correctly) no events. Somehow, although Local knew what radius I'd requested, it didn't get passed to the search until I confirmed it again.

404chg1
Jun 29, 2008, 9:18pm Top

Why are the libraries now shown in the entry order of books? That makes it,to me, much more chaotic as people generally don't enter stuff either thematically or alphabetically. I vote to see the library listing restored to alphabetical.

405sabreuse
Jun 29, 2008, 9:23pm Top

Libraries are sorted by whatever column you last sorted on -- just click at the top of the author or title column (or whatever other sort you'd like).

406conceptDawg
Jun 29, 2008, 10:01pm Top

403: I rewrote a large portion of the location stuff in Local this week. It is possible that the new preference wasn't saved for your radius until you save it that second time. If there is no preference save then it defaults to 15. But please let me know if you have the same problem again (there is another thread about Home-Local bugs and idiosyncracies that is MUCH shorter than this one so it would probably be better to follow up there so that your message doesn't get lost in the shuffle here).

403: On this day uses LT time and we don't do any timezone changing yet. Hopefully one day.

407abbottthomas
Jul 3, 2008, 2:06pm Top

As often as not my home page can't be found when I log in. If I creep up on it via talk or groups it usually appears, but sometimes, as today, the page is blank.

Anything to do?

408timspalding
Jul 3, 2008, 4:43pm Top

I'm thinking you're being thrust into some other page of LT. Can you look at the URL next time this happens and copy it here?

T

409hailelib
Jul 3, 2008, 6:00pm Top

Actually, when I sign in , I've been seeing this. If I use the back button to go back to the sign in page and try again then I get the expected result and the home page loads. Started seeing this when I switched to FF3.

410abbottthomas
Jul 3, 2008, 6:04pm Top

Thanks, Tim*. Went straight there this time but I will do as you suggest if it happens again.

*actually, rather more than thanks - wouldn't it be mind-boggling if, after IE messed up, I could get a message from Bill Gates a couple of hours after sending my error report? ;-)

411countrylife
Edited: Dec 4, 2008, 12:42pm Top

This message has been deleted by its author.

412timspalding
Jul 3, 2008, 10:28pm Top

I promise to cry at my goodbye speech too.

413conceptDawg
Jul 4, 2008, 12:14am Top

Don't you know that he's already a multi-quad-zillionaire? He just hides it really well.

414timspalding
Jul 4, 2008, 2:04am Top

Hey, your wife is an oil magnate!

415conceptDawg
Jul 4, 2008, 3:12am Top

Yeah, they were really excited since bonuses were being announced this week. Rightfully so since the oil business is doing "really well" right now. There were many rumors thrown around from iPhones to Ford Pickup trucks for each employee.

They got....wait for it....
a barbecue set. (spatula, etc.)

Ahhh. Big business.

416timspalding
Jul 4, 2008, 3:27am Top

Yes, but I know you too well—you want a new barbeque set.

(Or are you so barbeque-centric that only a set you selected could do?)

417timspalding
Jul 4, 2008, 3:27am Top

By the way, Chris, how did Kate give Liam a stomach flu?

418klarusu
Jul 4, 2008, 4:27am Top

Now I'm using my 'Home' page completely as my portal to LT, it would be just peachy if we could have a button on their to 'Edit Account/Profile' because this is the only reason I access 'Profile' at the moment (I have email enabled for 'Comments') - I treat it very much as just my public LT face. Not that the homepage isn't spiffy already, but this would make it super-spiffy!

419mckait
Jul 4, 2008, 9:16am Top

klarusu... you are very brave to mention the "P" word. It tends to set Tim off a bit... lol

420klarusu
Jul 4, 2008, 10:34am Top

I am a brave an pioneering soul (and just a little bit dumb!) ;)

421lilithcat
Jul 4, 2008, 10:38am Top

> 415

That's nothing. OUR bosses (a/k/a the County Board) once gave themselves a really big raise - and the employees got a free t-shirt! Big spenders, huh?

But we digress . . .

422conceptDawg
Jul 7, 2008, 8:58am Top

Actually, I would be kind of excited about a BBQ set....if I didn't already own a nice set. I guess I can put the new one in our tailgating supplies and use it there.
(sorry to hijack the thread, but in all honesty we have two new threads for Home conversations anyway)

423twomoredays
Jul 7, 2008, 12:30pm Top

By message 422, I'm not sure it's considered hijacking any longer.

Maybe more like bumming a ride.

424BlondeBibliophile
Jul 8, 2008, 1:08am Top

Hey there Tim. I am a little late to this discussion, but I do have 2 things that I would like to bring up.

1) I have been reading through some of the other members posts. I officially do not envy your job. :-)

2) This is a very silly and minor problem but I am kinda weird like this........I changed my profile pic on my profile page, but it did not automatically change on my home page. I thought that I also had to change the pic on the home page as well, but I'm not seeing an option to do that. So..... it's not a biggie, but I thought I would let you know that it might be a nice feature to be able to change that if the mood arises. Thanks. :-)

425timspalding
Jul 8, 2008, 2:21am Top

>1 timspalding:

Ha. Thanks. Well, I'm paid and it's a labor of extreme love. But yeah, sometimes I need a stiff drink.

>2 Noisy:

I understand why this is happening. I need to think about a fix. For a weird reason, it's not contemplated in the code.

426BlondeBibliophile
Jul 8, 2008, 2:28pm Top

1)

HAHAHAHA.
I can see that. Geez, I needed a stiff drink after reading some of these.

2)

Thanks. I appreciate it.

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