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Chewett

Over Moderation

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When in doubt, don't call someone names. Instead of saying, "You're stupid", say, "Your idea makes no sense. Here's why:"

Not acceptable.

 

I lack skills in bullshitting or should I have said "talking nice" ?

 

I think that first phrasing said it better then the latest.

 

Just stick to whatever you do; PM when you notice some allusions ... if you care; change if it is really ugly phrasing.

 

But worst thing is that YOU CLOSE TOPICS because others choose to spam them.

 

I want my topic back and opened. If you don't want to clean it, then just move it to SoS forum. I will take care of if.

 

 

---------------------------------------------

 

Just came up with an update:

 

The best way to see what you have to moderate is to bring back the old way of like/dislike of posts.

You cannot express your disagreement with one's post except by trolling/ spamming that topic.

And because topics are trolled / spammed , they get closed.

 

So ... "ppl lets troll topics we don't like so they get closed " ... is that the idea that you are promoting ?

Edited by No one

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Just came up with an update:

 

The best way to see what you have to moderate is to bring back the old way of like/dislike of posts.

You cannot express your disagreement with one's post except by trolling/ spamming that topic.

And because topics are trolled / spammed , they get closed.

 

So ... "ppl lets troll topics we don't like so they get closed " ... is that the idea that you are promoting ?

WOW good point.

 

Incentives are such hard things to do right.

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So ... "ppl lets troll topics we don't like so they get closed " ... is that the idea that you are promoting ?

WOW good point.

Incentives are such hard things to do right.

 

If you cause a conversation to descend into insults, and we as a moderation team decide it was you starting this, the topic will be locked and you get a warning....Multiple warnings = post moderator and/or banning for a period of time.

I assume the moderators would award a warning to each person they decide has caused a topic to descend into flame wars, thereby decreasing the incentive for [a group to gang up to force-close a topic, knowing that only one person among them would be punished].

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Chewett I was not trolling, it's because there are some words in the grey zone of whether they are not racial slurs. Eg, calling someone "gay" (I know this is not a "racial slur" but it falls into the same category in that improper use of it may offend a certain demographic of people.)

I love you, Oophd

Chewett I was not trolling, it's because there are some words in the grey zone of whether they are not racial slurs. Eg, calling someone "gay" (I know this is not a "racial slur" but it falls into the same category in that improper use of it may offend a certain demographic of people.)

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Dear moderators,

 

What is your position re: the recent thread dst wrote about me, in which she deleted all of the replies, and then locked it (preventing me being able to reply if I choose to)?  To my knowledge all of the replies were worthwhile opinions on the matter, and what does that say about the moderators in general when one of them uses her power in such a one-sided fashion, effectively silencing the majority?

 

I would like to hear from each moderator if possible. 

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Use multiquote and respond in a forum she doesn't have mod powers in.

File a complaint if you deem it necessary, Chewie takes that stuff very seriously.

 

We (the other mods, including global) can't check other mods activities, that's an admin feature, so he's the one to talk to. Therefore, i can't see what really happened, what contents got deleted, or anything, so i don't intend to judge the situation.

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I will put forward a furtherance of the concern dst has raised:

 

Cultural differences.

 

The majority of forum mods come from a western culture. However, this is not true for the playerbase. What may be considered completely acceptable within western culture, and hence not something to moderate for rudeness by the mods, may in fact be the height of rudeness within one of the other cultures present in the game.

 

As we have already seen in No One's post, in the past (past, not future), what would be moderated for rudeness was subjected to the subjective opinion of the mods. The fact that it would be decided by the mods as a group does not combat the fact that it is fully subjective still.

 

For example. Within western culture, patting someone on the head is usually seen as a form of childish affection. However, within Indonesian culture, and many others, this is considered pretty much the pinnacle of insults. Why? They view the head as the seat of the soul.

If someone was having a seemingly polite if heated discussion on the forums, and knew "obscure" cultural insults such as this (raise your hand any Mod that was aware of this prior to my stating it please), then if one of the people involved ended their sentence with *pats [other person] on the head* it would, to a Mod look harmless. If reported, it would require an explanation of why exactly such a thing that seems so innocent was, in fact, rude. And even if such a thing was successfully reported... how would you justify giving a warning to the person who did it? How would you be able to prove, that the very thing you yourself took to be harmless, was, in fact, intended as a dire insult?

 

Every culture has its own perspective on insults, both physical and verbal. In some cases, simply changing the order of a few words can make something an insult. Worst of all, what will you do if someone uses insults from their own culture, extremely rude ones that only someone from within their culture would recognize, and the person being insulted doesn't realize and it goes unreported until someone from outside MD sees it? Sees something which to them is exceedingly rude, and sees it being ignored while other things, much tamer things, are punished?

 

How would you have known to censor it had the situation above (hand on head) been perpetrated by an Indonesian against someone who doesn't get it? Because that would be just as rude, and potentially much more damaging to MD's reputation if lesser things are being punished.

 

I am very interested to hear your thoughts on this problem.

Edited by Kyphis the Bard

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@Kyphis The rule against roleplaying makes much more sense to me now. :P Actually, patting someone's head in response to someone stating an opinion is used here to say, 'You're like a child, and therefore your opinion is cute, ignorant, and worthless'. The other interpretation is quite interesting. Maybe I'll major in insults.

 

The problem is though, even with actions such as *shrugs*, *shakes head*, etc., gotten rid of, there's still the matter of metaphors being used in relation to people (such as saying that someone is like a sheep). What needs to be asked though, is how far does the player base want us to go?

 

Should we give friendly warnings to people if they accidentally post culturally specific insults that are usually hidden to native English speaker eyes? Obviously if they use those insults again, then they might be doing it intentionally.

 

Or, are you and dst saying that since someone can be deeply insulted by any word in the English language that's used in the wrong context, that Western/English insults should be allowed too?

Edited by Change

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Some ideas

There is an saying that probably is in many language or culture

if its not broken dont fix it

That gem of popular culture as often some pratical true

What bring that toughts of tightening rules in moderating forum?

I ask that myself, because, i dont remember seeing things that would have choc me

I think that most here are matur enought to wisthan some rudeness in some occasion, or some mocking

But note i am not for slugging fest of evident insults, or arrassement of continual mocking on some individual ... But i am not aware  of such occurance in forum

What make me afraid of tightening rules, and more so in looking of the tone that this thread was going to ...

possible kind of easy moderating, an 0 tolerance of whitewasing and possible banning

I am not saying that its the intentions, but that is an possible outcome that i think would be much more damaging than some occasionnal occurance of rudeness.

I think that on occasions even some hot exchanges can be not only acceptable but an sing of an  heltly forum where real exchange can be going.

one point was brought, saying that when there was positive and negative rating, it may have been an venting mechanisim that can prevent rought posting ... maybe there is some true in that.. or one can even say that that negative or positive rating can be an auto regulating by the community, showing in an way what is acceptable or not.

Now talking for myself, i see myself as an polite, and mostly nicely talking (excepting evident bad english spelling) ... but i can thinking back and see that on some occasions i have post strongly either my view point or my rebuke of some other view points ... but i think that all was remaing in what was acceptable for mature players. If such occasions would have been with new ruling subject of heavy warning and possible banning .... i dont think it would have been right.

Up to now i think morator have done an good job balancing an nice forum, and an healtly forum
Balance and good sence should prevail in my opinion

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One word - LOLZ! You wanting to moderate the MD forum, its like wanting to mod the only media a country has. Racial and gender bias i agree. They are serious offences. People cn be thrown in prison for that. My last post was full of sarcasm. How would you decide who's a troll and who's not? By majority agreement? Lulz.

Hate me for this but drama brings out most of the stuff thats hidden behind the scenes. Best and worst of people.. So much gets uncovered by 1 person's frustration. You want to mod that? Lolz.

Frankly all this crap is quite entertaining... Makes playing MD worthwhile sometimes.

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Racial and gender bias i agree. They are serious offences. People cn be thrown in prison for that.

 

That's all the update was about. Also, that people who are found by all moderators to cause a thread to derail into insults will be given a warning.

 

The thread essentially derailed into a discussion on how certain words/sayings are insulting/profane to certain people. The whole argument being that why should the mods disallow English swear words and allow sayings that have just as profane or moreso meanings to some people.

 

"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law." (emphasis added).

 

The problem comes in determining if someone has knowingly said something profane. Sometimes it's pretty obvious, but sometimes it's not.

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Or, are you and dst saying that since someone can be deeply insulted by any word in the English language that's used in the wrong context, that Western/English insults should be allowed too?

Actually, I am mostly pro the idea of this sort of censorship, for reasons I will state below. I just think that the sort of flaws this systems has would potentially make it unfair due to cultural bias (something which we can't avoid). However, Chewett or any of the mods has yet so far to weigh in on the points I raised with how they plan to get around it, so who knows? They may come up with a safeguard to prevent (or at least minimalize) such cases.

 

I can't speak for dst, as I do not know her mind.

 

I wouldn't speak for dst anyway though. 'cos, y'know, its dst.

 

Far more interesting to watch how she goes about it herself than be a proxy.

 

Some ideas

There is an saying that probably is in many language or culture

if its not broken dont fix it

That gem of popular culture as often some pratical true

What bring that toughts of tightening rules in moderating forum?

 

One of the complaints that I have seen, over and over, during the six years I have been playing (although moreso since around the time of Kingship and onwards) has been the amount of harrassment and vitriol present on the forum. A lot of the people I have gotten in touch with about why they left the game (although not all, just the vast majority) have stated the attitudes that get pushed around on the forum as a main reason they left.

 

I'd wager that the main reason for this increasing trend is largely to do with the increasing impact the forums have been having on the realm, with people relying on it for trade, quests, and all manner of other things. The result of this is that while in game you can avoid people you don't like, or you might never even meet the sort of people you don't like due to different timezones, on the forum anyone and everyone (except, of course, Innocence :P) can make their opinion known, no matter how well meaning or wanted it may be. Certainly, with private forums for lands and the such there are still places that are populated by more like minded people, however its very easy for people with an axe to grind to harrass you on the forum, as your account is there even if you are not.

 

For this reason; to help improve MD's image (which is quite broken, we have not got a very good reputation around the internet) and to help improve player retention (which the recent fundraising from Mur should be all the evidence needed that we need to work on that), something needs to be done. Indeed, there are people who would say its already too late to change, but as the old adage goes, "Better late than never"

 

Another forum I know has a beautiful solution...

 

http://personalitycafe.com/spam-world/

 

with subforums

http://personalitycafe.com/venting/

http://personalitycafe.com/gossip/

 

 

In all seriousness.

 

Personally, this sort of solution is what sprang to my own mind, and what I would be happiest seeing implimented. It lacks the censoring, while still keeping the forum civil (except, of course, for the places where you would expect to see it, ie there). The problem of course, is that I doubt it really meshes with MD's ideals. Certainly, freedom is a big one, however it is not freedom for freedoms sake, but freedom with a price.

Edited by Kyphis the Bard

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One word - LOLZ! You wanting to moderate the MD forum, its like wanting to mod the only media a country has. Racial and gender bias i agree. They are serious offences. People cn be thrown in prison for that. My last post was full of sarcasm. How would you decide who's a troll and who's not? By majority agreement? Lulz.

Hate me for this but drama brings out most of the stuff thats hidden behind the scenes. Best and worst of people.. So much gets uncovered by 1 person's frustration. You want to mod that? Lolz.

Frankly all this crap is quite entertaining... Makes playing MD worthwhile sometimes.

 

I have to disagree with you. All this crap is just annoying and in actuality, pushes me away from the game. It's why I barely ever talk to anyone.

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@vertu so you'd prefer it if the forum was kept totally 'civil' and 'polite' and not knowing what is actually happening in the game? How the players actually are? If no one wouldn't have posted that post, you'd never have known bout his intensity of dislike for the fact that PO gets to be a fugitive. Nor would have PO responded with claim to be able to crumble MD, or dst put forward a list of accusations against PO, or that fact that a lot of other players dislike dst/support po. It was because of the intensity of his post that things got out... When people feel attacked, they tend to defend themselves and usually do so with counter accusations. Lays out the facts before us. For a game like MD, such kind of provocation is usually needed to pull out the facts.

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@vertu so you'd prefer it if the forum was kept totally 'civil' and 'polite' and not knowing what is actually happening in the game? How the players actually are? If no one wouldn't have posted that post, you'd never have known bout his intensity of dislike for the fact that PO gets to be a fugitive. Nor would have PO responded with claim to be able to crumble MD, or dst put forward a list of accusations against PO, or that fact that a lot of other players dislike dst/support po. It was because of the intensity of his post that things got out... When people feel attacked, they tend to defend themselves and usually do so with counter accusations. Lays out the facts before us. For a game like MD, such kind of provocation is usually needed to pull out the facts.

 

To be perfectly honest, yes actually I would prefer that. In my opinion, those personal matters should be dealt with in private. If it can't be fixed privately then present your case to court. There is no reason to start flame wars over every little thing. Otherwise, pretty much every post certain people make are gonna be attacked by the people that dislike them with past accusations and general disagreement to every word they say. As opposed to actually being able to make unbiased decisions and listening to what is currently going on in the problem.

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To be perfectly honest, yes actually I would prefer that. In my opinion, those personal matters should be dealt with in private. If it can't be fixed privately then present your case to court. There is no reason to start flame wars over every little thing. Otherwise, pretty much every post certain people make are gonna be attacked by the people that dislike them with past accusations and general disagreement to every word they say. As opposed to actually being able to make unbiased decisions and listening to what is currently going on in the problem.

Well you did see how the private conversation went between dst and PO. Forget about it getting sorted, it just became worse. If things are kept private , the public opinion tends to be more biased because most of them don't bother finding out the other side of the story. and there is ALWAYS the other side. 

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No, he did -not- see the full conversation, nor all of the actions of either party that composed the entire story. 

 

I have been asked by a few people regarding the whole story, and I have told them (and even provided evidence backing up my 'side').  One example was over one year long use by dst of admin tools to harass and spy on dreamers and use of council powers to harass me in and out of game. 

 

She killed my role long before I sabotaged it (and she laughs about this and states this as well, publicly).

 

Now, if I were to post my side of the story... it would be... 'moderated.'

 

How do I know, I have mentioned posting these things to council, and 'one' of the council threatened retaliation.  I do not know which one but I have a good guess.

Edited by Phantom Orchid

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Allow me to quote a review from a while ago.

 


... Perhaps the situation would turn around if I visited the forums or asked for help in the help channels. Little did I know that the forums were mostly filled with chatter between players who already knew the game. They spun thread after thread, most of them complaining about the "drama" in the game, and many of them using such gameplay-specific terms that they were literally no help...

 

Basically all the fighting and bickering on the forum scares people away. If I were to come on the forum for the first time now I wouldn't want to be part of this community. These flame wars are not helping anyone in any way shape or form, but are directly hurting MD. 

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@Samon: I agree with you ,  I don't like it, but it is necessary.

 

 

 

That's all the update was about. Also, that people who are found by all moderators to cause a thread to derail into insults will be given a warning.

 

The thread essentially derailed into a discussion on how certain words/sayings are insulting/profane to certain people. The whole argument being that why should the mods disallow English swear words and allow sayings that have just as profane or moreso meanings to some people.

 

"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this bulletin board to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law." (emphasis added).

 

The problem comes in determining if someone has knowingly said something profane. Sometimes it's pretty obvious, but sometimes it's not.

So mainly you want no such actions to be ever revealed ?

If for example a "Janus headed person" (@Mods: do replace with an exact non insulting expression) does something in game, what can someone (not necessarily a girl) do ?

If it not posted on forum, everybody will consider him crazy; if he does present it on the forum, because it will lead to (yea it can also start with) insults, the topic gets closed.

 

Can't you just present your opinion to that person ? Can't you post the warning on that topic AS MOD POINT OF VIEW ?

 

 

____________________________________________________________

I want my topic opened !!!

Edited by Burns
you're welcome ;)

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Guys, why not try to find a solution?

 

Make a forum section, "Complaints or something that got you frustrated!" or something like that. It can't be viewable by anyone unless they've made a certain number of posts. (10?)

 

All flame war threads can be started/moved there, if they are SO necessary to exist.

Edited by DARK DEMON

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Kyphis i plan to read through this topic when i am better. I am not ignoring it. However at the moment when that is is very unstable.

Don't worry, I was not accusing you of anything :P

Just saying that, until we have feedback from someone who actually knows the plan, there is no point making assumptions. Raise concerns, make ideas, sure. But making the assumption that the concerns someone might have are not already accounted for before we hear a response from someone in the loop would be silly and derailing.

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