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Methelburg -- is it compatible with canon? (The Hobbit, RotK and Unfinished Tales quotes inside)

chuckie001

Yellow Flower Puncher
I have noticed Methelburg being built between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood, north of Carrock, and as I understand it, it's planned to be a non-deserted, populated town. That worries me a bit regarding the logical conflicts with the canon (mainly The Hobbit), and I'll try to present the points here:

The town is (AFAIK) not mentioned by name anywhere in canon. I was pointed only to Melburg on the Middle-earth Role Playing wiki.
This is the (non-canon) map I was shown: Mirkwood Status Map - ISETAR

canon fact:
Thorin's company traveled from Goblin Gate to Eagle's Eyries and then to Carrock (by eagles), then to Beorn's Home (on foot), then north to the Elf-Road (on ponies).
canon fact:
[when riding north, from Beorn to the Elf-Road] …they rode now for two more days, and all the while they saw nothing save grass and flowers and birds and scattered trees, and occasionally small herds of red deer browsing or sitting at noon in the shade. —The Hobbit
concern:
The last leg of this journey would take them very close to Methelburg, if it was where the non-canon map shows it. If the town was populated, why would the book never mention it? The distance to Methelburg was as short as from Carrock to Beorn, so they could go to the town even on foot, if they were forbidden by Beorn to take his ponies there. In the town, they could get fresher supplies (although Beorn's supplies would last quite long), or at least some news. At the very least, the book should have mentioned it (and outlying farms and such), and why they weren't going there, instead of saying they saw nothing but grass and flowers and trees.

canon fact:
“The goblins,” Beorn had said, “will not dare to cross the Great River for a hundred miles north of the Carrock nor to come near my house — it is well protected at night! — but I should ride fast; for if they make their raid soon they will cross the river to the south and scour all the edge of the forest so as to cut you off, and Wargs run swifter than ponies. Still you are safer going north, even though you seem to be going back nearer to their strongholds; for that is what they will least expect, and they will have the longer ride to catch you. Be off now as quick as you may!” —The Hobbit
concern:

Beorn discourages them from using the Old Forest Road in the south (and recommends the northern Elf-Road), but also says that going north means going nearer to goblin strongholds, but doesn't say anything about getting very near a large human settlement (which should be safer than open road, and definitely safer than goblin strongholds). Also, if there was a large human settlement to the north, why wouldn't the goblins expect the company to go there and seek protection?

canon fact:
In spite of the dangers of this far land bold men had of late been making their way back into it from the South, cutting down trees, and building themselves places to live in among the more pleasant woods in the valleys and along the river-shores. —The Hobbit
canon fact:
The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. “They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew,” he said, “for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times they would be right. No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains.” —The Hobbit
concern:
It clearly says men had been making their way back into the Wilderness (not that there were sizeable populations living there all the time), and that they were coming from the south, not from the north, where Methelburg is supposed to be. And when refusing to go where people live, the Lord of the Eagles refuses to fly south, but says nothing about people in the north.

canon fact:
Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long Lake and of Dale. —The Return of the King (Appendix F)
concern:
Only the Beornings and Woodmen (i.e., those bold men coming back, up the vale from the south) are listed as the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin. There's no mention of any organized town between Mirkwood and the mountains surviving from the past. This part of the Appendices is longer and discusses the languages of all men (in this particular paragraph those in the northern regions), but when it wants to talk about men to the north of Beornings and Woodmen, it needs to jump eastwards to Long Lake and Dale (having no-one to talk about directly north of Carrock; the Éothéod/Rohirrim are discussed as already having completely migrated south). Also note that Tolkien writes “furhter north and east”, but Long Lake and Dale aren't that much more to the north than the supposed location of Methelburg -- if Tolkien counted the area as far north as this as being populated by Beornings, wouldn't he describe Long Lake and Dale as being mainly “further east”? (And remember, there were basically no “Beornings” as such until after the Battle of Five Armies, Beorn was a loner; so all this is describing a very recent state of affairs.)

Atlas of Middle-earth fact:
The only thing north of Beorn on any of the maps (even the newest) is Framsburg, and that is further north, and marked as ruins.
concern:
If there was a living town nearer to the path of Thorin's company, wouldn't it be marked on the map? Even in the non-canon Middle-earth Role Playing wiki, where the Methelburg description came from, Framsburg is described as about 4 times smaller (340 people vs. 1200), and yet it appears in the Atlas, while Methelburg does not. Also, Framsburg is not described as ruins, which casts even more doubt on the reliability of either the Atlas, or Middle-earth Role Playing wiki.


Can all this be somehow explained and be made to make logical sense? There are also some concerns other than logic, namely scale: adding a town that size in that area kind of breaks the wildness of the Wilderness, I think (it's actually visible from our Mirkwood) -- but that is only my personal opinion. The points above, however, are really dealing with the canon-ness of the town, not just the way it looks in MCME.
 
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chuckie001

Yellow Flower Puncher
And I found a very descriptive passage about northmen in that area in the Unfinished Tales (Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan). I'm not sure if MCME counts Unfinished Tales as canon, but I'd say it's definitely closer to it than Middle-earth Role Playing, as it does come from JRR and C Tolkien.

Unfinished Tales fact:
While the Éothéod still dwelt in their former home (note 18: Their former home: in the Vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden Fields, see p.302.) they were well-known to Gondor as a people of good trust, from whom they received news of all that passed in that region. They were a remnant of the Northmen, who were held to be akin in ages past to the Dúnedain, and in the days of the great Kings had been their allies and contributed much of their blood to the people of Gondor. It was thus of great concern to Gondor when the Éothéod removed into the far North, in the days of Eärnil II, last but the of the Kings of the southern realm. The new land of the Éothéod lay north of Mirkwood, between the Misty Mountains westward and the Forest River eastward. Southward it extended to the confluence of the two short rivers that they named Greylin and Langwell. Greylin flowed down from Ered Mithrin, the Grey Mountains, but Langwell came from the Misty Mountains, and this name it bore because it was the source of Anduin, which from its junction with Greylin they called Langflood. Messengers still passed between Gondor and the Éothéod after their departure; but it was some four hundred and fifty of our miles between the confluence of Greylin and Langwell (where was their only fortified burg) and the inflow of Limlight into Anduin, in a direct line as a bird might fly, and much more for those who journeyed on earth; and in like manner some eight hundred miles to Minas Tirith.
concern:
The remnant of the northmen settled in an area that was to the north of the confluence of Greylin and Langwell, which corresponds to (5650, 5, -6900) on MCME map. They moved there from much more south (between Carrock and Gladden Fields), but nothing is said about passing through any other settled lands before settling up north. The realm of the Éothéod then didn't reach southwards far enough to include the place where Methelburg (5850, 5, -5800) is supposed to be. And then the text speaks of the difficulties of sending messengers south to Gondor: they could safely stop nowhere between the confluence of Greylin and Langwell, and the inflow of Limlight (5320, 5, -800). (Gondor had never claimed any lands north of Limlight, as mentioned in another paragraph.) This migration north happened around 1977 TA.

Unfinished Tales fact:
On that day in silence the great éohere set out, leaving fear behind, and taking with them small hope; for they knew not what lay before them, either on the road or at its end. […] But this great host was not threatened or assailed during its long journey down the Vales of Anduin. […] As it drew southward and passed by southern Mirkwood (below the great East Bight), which was now infested by the Balchoth, still there was no sign of men, in force or in scouting parties, to bar their road or to spy upon their coming.
concern:
The éohere (basically all riders of the Éothéod) set out, but there's no mention of either friendlies (otherwise, they would know what lies on the road) or enemies (they were not assailed) anywhere on the road south. If there was a friendly town to the south of them, they would not be nervous and unsure from the very beginning, and if there was a town overrun by enemies, the full éohere would hardly pass by unnoticed. This takes place in 2510 TA.

Unfinished Tales fact:
[about Eorl riding from Éothéod lands south to Celebrant] Though there were no great natural obstacles on the east side of Anduin, much of the land was now desolate, and roads or horse-paths running southward were lost or little used; only for short periods were they able to ride at speed, and they needed also to husband their own strength and their horses," since they expected battle as soon as they reached the Undeeps.
Unfinished Tales fact:
[Eorl the Young talks about going from Celebrant back home, to bring his people south to Calenardhon/Rohan] […] be assured that I shall return, for the keeping of my oath, unless disaster befall us and I perish with my people on the long road. For that must be on the east side of Anduin ever under the threat of Mirkwood, and at last must pass through the vale that is haunted by the shadow of the hill that you name Dol Guldur. On the west side there is no road for horsemen, nor for a great host of people and wains, even were not the Mountains infested by Orcs; and none can pass, few or many, through the Dwimordene where dwells the White Lady and weaves nets that no mortal can pass. By the east road will I come, as I came to Celebrant […]
The Return of the King (Appendices) fact:
Cirion, therefore, in reward for his aid, gave Calenardhon between Anduin and Isen to Eorl and his people; and they sent north for their wives and children and their goods and settled in that land.
concern:
Eorl says that he came to Celebrant from the north on the east side of Anduin, and his people will need to go the same way (from Éothéod's northern realm “ever under the threat of Mirkwood“, all the way down to Dol Guldur). If there was Methelburg on the western side of Anduin, wouldn't there be some road they could use at least for a part of the journey on that side? And since they brought south all their wives, children, and possessions (and AFAIK, no kings after Eorl were called “kings of the Éothéod“), and because the lands near Mirkwood were considered dangerous, none of them probably stayed behind or founded any new towns mid-journey.
 

Eriol_Eandur

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Hey!!! It's usually my part to write such posts. :p

But I love your detailled research, I couldn't have done better. I'm impressed again.

Yes, I consider Unfinished Tales as canon lore though there are quite often facts contradictive with Silmarillion, The Hobbit and LotR. Tolkien kept developing Middle-earth all his life.

Still I can't agree with your conclusion. :D

First, for your understanding @chuckie001, as you are quite new at the server: We are building a lot of non-canon stuff as not all areas and details are described by Tolkien. Especially MERP is a common non-cannon source for additional builds. In general I agree to use these non-canon sources as long as they don't contradict any canon lore.
Second, we are building Middle-earth at Bilbo's 111st birthday 60 years after the events described in The Hobbit. For better understanding I'll give here a quick summary of the later History of the upper valley of River Anduin:
Framsburg was captial of the Éothéod before they moved south to Calenardhon (Rohan) in TA 2510. After these brave people left the area was deserted and the orcs of the Misty Mountains were numerous and strong before their war with the dwarfs. Also in TA 2770 Smaug descended on Erebor which made the whole North of Wilderland more dangerous. Only after Smaug was dead and most of the orcs of the Misty Mountains were destroyed in the Battle of Anzanulbizar in TA 2790 and the Battle of the Five Armies in TA 2941 the region became more safe again and men came up from the south to settle there, Beornings they were called as Beorn and his son Grimbeorn became their leaders.
So my conclusion is that at the MCME server date (TA 3001) inhabited towns around Beorn's home are matching well with canon lore.
 

Fornad

Hardcore MCME-er
@Eriol_Eandur you didn’t actually quote anything from the books that proved your conclusion, whilst @chuckie001 quoted quite a bit.

I will say that there is nothing that suggests men built a settlement north of Carrock, and quite a few things that point against it. I find this the most obvious one:

canon fact:
Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long Lake and of Dale. —The Return of the King (Appendix F)
concern:
Only the Beornings and Woodmen (i.e., those bold men coming back, up the vale from the south) are listed as the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin. There's no mention of any organized town between Mirkwood and the mountains surviving from the past. This part of the Appendices is longer and discusses the languages of all men (in this particular paragraph those in the northern regions), but when it wants to talk about men to the north of Beornings and Woodmen, it needs to jump eastwards to Long Lake and Dale (having no-one to talk about directly north of Carrock; the Éothéod/Rohirrim are discussed as already having completely migrated south).
LotR only states that Grimbeorn “was now the lord of many sturdy men” - and it seems more likely to me that he’d have moved further south to rule over those men, rather than lots of men in the south moving further north to live near some remote homestead.
 

Eaglz24

Hardcore MCME-er
I have noticed Methelburg being built between the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood, north of Carrock, and as I understand it, it's planned to be a non-deserted, populated town. That worries me a bit regarding the logical conflicts with the canon (mainly The Hobbit), and I'll try to present the points here:

The town is (AFAIK) not mentioned by name anywhere in canon. I was pointed only to Melburg on the Middle-earth Role Playing wiki.
This is the (non-canon) map I was shown: Mirkwood Status Map - ISETAR

canon fact:
Thorin's company traveled from Goblin Gate to Eagle's Eyries and then to Carrock (by eagles), then to Beorn's Home (on foot), then north to the Elf-Road (on ponies).
canon fact:
[when riding north, from Beorn to the Elf-Road] …they rode now for two more days, and all the while they saw nothing save grass and flowers and birds and scattered trees, and occasionally small herds of red deer browsing or sitting at noon in the shade. —The Hobbit
concern:
The last leg of this journey would take them very close to Methelburg, if it was where the non-canon map shows it. If the town was populated, why would the book never mention it? The distance to Methelburg was as short as from Carrock to Beorn, so they could go to the town even on foot, if they were forbidden by Beorn to take his ponies there. In the town, they could get fresher supplies (although Beorn's supplies would last quite long), or at least some news. At the very least, the book should have mentioned it (and outlying farms and such), and why they weren't going there, instead of saying they saw nothing but grass and flowers and trees.

canon fact:
“The goblins,” Beorn had said, “will not dare to cross the Great River for a hundred miles north of the Carrock nor to come near my house — it is well protected at night! — but I should ride fast; for if they make their raid soon they will cross the river to the south and scour all the edge of the forest so as to cut you off, and Wargs run swifter than ponies. Still you are safer going north, even though you seem to be going back nearer to their strongholds; for that is what they will least expect, and they will have the longer ride to catch you. Be off now as quick as you may!” —The Hobbit
concern:

Beorn discourages them from using the Old Forest Road in the south (and recommends the northern Elf-Road), but also says that going north means going nearer to goblin strongholds, but doesn't say anything about getting very near a large human settlement (which should be safer than open road, and definitely safer than goblin strongholds). Also, if there was a large human settlement to the north, why wouldn't the goblins expect the company to go there and seek protection?

canon fact:
In spite of the dangers of this far land bold men had of late been making their way back into it from the South, cutting down trees, and building themselves places to live in among the more pleasant woods in the valleys and along the river-shores. —The Hobbit
canon fact:
The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. “They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew,” he said, “for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times they would be right. No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains.” —The Hobbit
concern:
It clearly says men had been making their way back into the Wilderness (not that there were sizeable populations living there all the time), and that they were coming from the south, not from the north, where Methelburg is supposed to be. And when refusing to go where people live, the Lord of the Eagles refuses to fly south, but says nothing about people in the north.

canon fact:
Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long Lake and of Dale. —The Return of the King (Appendix F)
concern:
Only the Beornings and Woodmen (i.e., those bold men coming back, up the vale from the south) are listed as the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin. There's no mention of any organized town between Mirkwood and the mountains surviving from the past. This part of the Appendices is longer and discusses the languages of all men (in this particular paragraph those in the northern regions), but when it wants to talk about men to the north of Beornings and Woodmen, it needs to jump eastwards to Long Lake and Dale (having no-one to talk about directly north of Carrock; the Éothéod/Rohirrim are discussed as already having completely migrated south).

Atlas of Middle-earth fact:
The only thing north of Beorn on the map is Framsburg, and that is further north, and marked as ruins.
concern:
If there was a living town nearer to the path of Thorin's company, wouldn't it be marked on the map? Even in the non-canon Middle-earth Role Playing wiki, where the Methelburg description came from, Framsburg is described as about 4 times smaller (340 people vs. 1200), and yet it appears in the Atlas, while Methelburg does not. Also, Framsburg is not described as ruins, which casts even more doubt on the reliability of either the Atlas, or Middle-earth Role Playing wiki.


Can all this be somehow explained and be made to make logical sense? There are also some concerns other than logic, namely scale: adding a town that size in that area kind of breaks the wildness of the Wilderness, I think (it's actually visible from our Mirkwood) -- but that is only my personal opinion. The points above, however, are really dealing with the canon-ness of the town, not just the way it looks in MCME.
MCME doesn't build by the books, nor should it
#RestoreBreeDA #NoTime4Lore2bh #TravelAgencySummerDiscounts
 

chuckie001

Yellow Flower Puncher
We are building a lot of non-canon stuff as not all areas and details are described by Tolkien. Especially MERP is a common non-cannon source for additional builds. In general I agree to use these non-canon sources as long as they don't contradict any canon lore.

Second, we are building Middle-earth at Bilbo's 111st birthday 60 years after the events described in The Hobbit. For better understanding I'll give here a quick summary of the later History of the upper valley of River Anduin:
Framsburg was captial of the Éothéod before they moved south to Calenardhon (Rohan) in TA 2510. After these brave people left the area was deserted and the orcs of the Misty Mountains were numerous and strong before their war with the dwarfs. Also in TA 2770 Smaug descended on Erebor which made the whole North of Wilderland more dangerous. Only after Smaug was dead and most of the orcs of the Misty Mountains were destroyed in the Battle of Anzanulbizar in TA 2790 and the Battle of the Five Armies in TA 2941 the region became more safe again and men came up from the south to settle there, Beornings they were called as Beorn and his son Grimbeorn became their leaders.
So my conclusion is that at the MCME server date (TA 3001) inhabited towns around Beorn's home are matching well with canon lore.
I tend to agree with what @Fornad pointed out (in particular, the Return of the King appendix should be describing the state of affairs close to the 3018/3019 War of the Ring, i.e., even after the Battle of Five Armies). And I don't think Beornings would build a new fortified town as large as Methelburg so quickly. If they had such building force, why wouldn't they expand their villages in the south, where they had already settled by 2941 TA? And it can't be old (even ruined, to be just rebuilt), because in 2510 TA, there's no mention of it when describing the journey along Anduin, and between 2510 and 2941, no permanent settlements are said to have been newly founded there.

It seems to me this is exactly a case of MERP contradicting the canon. (If we went with MERP, it says Methelburg was founded around 1020, which would contradict its absence in 1977, 2510, and 2941.) Being both founded and already ruined and deserted between 1977 and 2510 seems to contradict the description of the Éothéod/Rohirrim migration, which otherwise doesn't leave any large gaps in the story. Being founded and already ruined any less than beyond recognition between 2510 and 2941 seems to contradict The Hobbit (and when the earlier years are concerned, also partially the Rohirrim migration). Being built to this size after 2941 seems implausible for the reason stated above and by Fornad (and its history wouldn't be even based on MERP in the after-2941 case). That would only leave the option of Methelburg already being in ruins by 1977 TA. But in a wilderness overrun with migrating populations and orcs, wooden ruins don't last 1000 years. All that would remain would be an overgrown hill too far from the southern villages of the Woodmen and Beornings.

canon fact:
“Indeed,” said Glóin, “if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high, he added with a shake of his head; —The Fellowship of The Ring (Many Meetings)
concern:
Why would the only passage from Dale to Rivendell in 3018 TA lead through the Ford of Carrock, if the biggest fortified town was not near it, but to the north (moreover at a part of Anduin upstream, where it would be even easier to cross)? Or the other way round, why would the largest settlement not be at a route (a trade route with tolls, even) connecting the East and the West, but far to the north of it? It seems to me that if Beornings concentrated anywhere, it was mostly near Carrock, and perhaps a bit to the south, where they would mix with the Woodmen.

(In other places, I know about (I was actually on the server for a while in 2011 ;) ) and agree with filling the gaps in canon with what makes sense, like adding fishing villages to feed Dol Amroth and other large cities. But as you said: as long as it doesn't contradict the canon. And I would also add “as long as the addition is logical and needed”. It's like Occam's razor: there is no need for an isolated fortified town built in a few short years to be there, and all it does is raise eyebrows of anyone who knows The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, but isn't a fan of MERP.)
 
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RubenPieterMark

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I think the main concern about this project is that it's not planned at all; it is in the middle of nowhere, very remote from our current projects. We don't have a resource pack there, nor any good base terrain, which I thought was going to be the plan in the future, like Tyran has done in Mordor.
Even the head designer himself told me that he has no idea of what Patrick is doing. MCME isn't some kind of freebuild map right?
 

Eriol_Eandur

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@Fornad, I just summarized a few well known major events (except the point about Grimbeorn). I'm sure @chuckie001 is aware of all those facst, so why should I add quotes for them? Also I didn't expect any disagreement. @chuckie001 did a great research and I thought his only mistake was that the server is set to 60 years later that he seemed to suppose in his argumentation.
@chuckie001, I believe you misunderstood me a bit. I completely agree that the MERP history of Methelburg is pretty much contradictive with canon lore. For me it's just a name taken from MERP. I actually agree with all you wrote except the very last conclustion that there should be no settlements north of Carrock. That was true at the time of The Hobbit but I don't think so at Bilbo's 111th birthday.
I'd better explain my conclusion :p
It seems very clear to me that after the departure of the Éothéod and at latest after the arrival of Smaug no men lived in the uppper Valley of the Anduin valley. But conditions for new settlements improved after the victory of the dwarfs at Anzanulbizar as most orcs of Misty Mountains were killed:
The Return of the King - Appendix A - III Durin's folk said:
When all was ready they assailed and sacked one by one all all the stronghold of the Orcs that they could from Gundabad to the Gladden. Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light. But the Dwarves had the victory through their strength and their matchless weapons, and the fire of their anger, as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain.
At last all the Orcs that fled before them were gathered in Moria, and the Dwarf-host came to Azanulbizar.
The upper Valley of Anduin became more safe after Smaug was dead:
The Hobbit - The Return Journey said:
He had many hardships and adventures before he got back. The Wild was still the Wild, and there were many other things in it in those days besides goblins; but he was well guided and well guarded-the wizard was with him, and Beorn for much of the way-and he was never in great danger again. Anyway by mid-winter Gandalf and Bilbo had come all the way back, along both edges of the Forest, to the doors of Beorns house; and there for a while they both stayed. Yule-tide was warm and merry there; and men came from far and wide to feast at Beorns bidding. The goblins of the Misty Mountains were now few and terrified, and hidden in the deepest holes they could find; and the Wargs had vanished from the woods, so that men went abroad without fear. Beorn indeed became a great chief afterwards in those regions and ruled a wide land between the mountains and the wood; and it is said that for many generations the men of his line had the power of taking bears shape, and some were grim men and bad, but most were in heart like Beorn, if less in size and strength. In their day the last goblins were hunted from the Misty Mountains and a new peace came over the edge of the Wild.
The quote I failed to add in my last post point out in the same direction:
The Fellowship of the Ring - Many Meetings said:
Glóin had much to tell of events in the northern regions of Wilderland. Frodo learned, that Grimbeorn the Old, son of Beorn, was now the lord of many sturdy men, and to their land between the Mountains and Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go.
So after Smaugs dead Upper Valley was was a large empty land, but the perils why it was empty were gone. In such a situation it's human nature to explore and expand and found new settlements. @chuckie001 already quoted, that this began even before Smaug's death:
canon fact:
In spite of the dangers of this far land bold men had of late been making their way back into it from the South, cutting down trees, and building themselves places to live in among the more pleasant woods in the valleys and along the river-shores. —The Hobbit
After most Orcs were killed by the dwarfs men began to move north again, despite the perils. After Smaug's death and many more Orcs killed in the Battle of the Five Armies this movement north would have speed up. 60 years later I belive it's very realistic that the settlements of the Beornings have spread far north from Carrock. My idea was that Methelburg was one of these new settlements.
At last I want to stress what I didn't want to say:
  • I don't believe the captial of the Beornings should be located where Methelburg is (though it is very near to the forest gate of the elven road through Mirkwood)
  • I don't beleive it should be the only settlement of the Beornings nor it should be the largest.
  • I'm not involved in the project and I didn't even had a look ingame, I didn't think about if the size and fortifications are reasonable.
  • @RubenPieterMark I don't support starting a project in the upper Valley of Anduin at this point.
Thank's a lot for your research again @chuckie001. I believe you have many valid points and I hope it will be explained by someone involved in the project.
 

Patrick_0901

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I am building a concept for one of the northmen villages mentioned in the canon lore, you all have to realise that tolkien never really explained a lot about the situation of the men of the north who lived in several places in the Anduin vale, sometimes we get vague references that there are indeed men precent in some places but we never really get a good idea of where they live and with how many, so i think these places as @Eriol_Eandur discribed are non canon but are still fun to make otherwise the vale would be mostly empty and i feel this shouldnt be the case at all.

As for why i am doing it is just, i like the idea and you guys must not be confused about my plans i am just making a concept what can be easely removed from the map when any terrain revamps will happen.
It is hopefully there to stay, but only when the terrain is done it will be there permanent.
Meaning i will past it back after terrain is done and i will blend it back in when that day comes.
 

chuckie001

Yellow Flower Puncher
his only mistake was that the server is set to 60 years later that he seemed to suppose in his argumentation
I think I do understand what timepoint the map should represent, but the contradictions don't stop in 2941 TA, they go all the way to 3018.

The quote I failed to add in my last post…
Actually, the part I quoted about the Ford of Carrock being the only safe way across northern Anduin in 3018 TA comes in the very next sentence, still with Glóin speaking. (Maybe you overlooked the quote, as I only added it in an edit; sorry for that. :oops: ) If there was Methelburg on the west bank, across the river from the forest gate, I really think travellers coming from Dale could safely cross there (it would probably be a more manageable crossing than at Carrock, since it's even before one other tributary joins the river; and a crossing would be reasonable also because Methelburg is supposed to be on the west side, while the Beorn's house and the core lands of the Beornings are on the east).

I do agree with more people (more than just the bold men already mentioned in The Hobbit) coming to the area between the mountains and Mirkwood between 2941 and 3018, but I think Carrock is the furthest north they managed to reliably settle by 3018 (and by 3001, perhaps not even that) -- if the lands where neither orc nor wolf dared to go stretched all the way up to where Methelburg is supposed to be, why would Tolkien describe the Carrock as the only safe passage?


And regarding the "I'm just doing it"… uh… can't help it, but that doesn't sound very organized or professional to me, which is what I was expecting of MCME. Is this a case of "doing something stealthily and asking for forgiveness later is easier than asking for permission in advance"? A way to make something first, and then support it with sunk-cost fallacy, saying "look, I've already invested a lot of work into this, so let's keep it (or place it there again after the terrain revamp), even though it contradicts Glóin's words"? :confused:
 

Patrick_0901

Designer
Staff member
Designer
give me 1 reason why i should not be doing it, it is a place that pops up wherever i look on whatever forum map or discription i find, and tbh it does not contradict any lore, and i explained how the terrain issue will be solved, so what would be the main problem here?
 

Patrick_0901

Designer
Staff member
Designer
and sorry for my quick replies but to be honest, im getting kind of tired that whenever you place 1 block out of line in the main map, you Always get people complaining about something.
Its just a small town and it will be a good addition to the vale of Anduin, which is one of the most undetailed areas in the lore.
Its not like im building Dol Guldur wrong its just a town.
 

chuckie001

Yellow Flower Puncher
give me 1 reason why i should not be doing it, it is a place that pops up wherever i look on whatever forum map or discription i find, and tbh it does not contradict any lore, and i explained how the terrain issue will be solved, so what would be the main problem here?
Well I gave about 9 individual reasons why various aspects of it contradict canon, each headlined with a bold “concern:”, the last one being “the Ford of Carrock is the only safe passage in 3018 TA”. Some of the concerns are only about its history, which you may wave away by inventing a different history of it yourself, but some are about direct contradictions with the state of affairs as of 3018 (such as the “only safe passage” thing, or why would the men focus on the area up north, when they already had villages starting in the south, which they could work on developing instead).

And if we're really talking not only about the canon-ness, but also about the MCME portrayal, then… it's not small. The last time I checked, it took up 10 % of the width between the mountains and Mirkwood, and was visible when standing under the trees at the edge of the forest. And if you combine it with the notion that this shouldn't even be the only, or indeed even the biggest settlement there, then you're getting awfully close to hopping from Misty Mountains to Mirkwood from rooftop to rooftop.


I feel this needs to be stressed:

Having an area that is not filled to the brim with buildings, monuments or landmarks is not wrong. There are supposed to be “empty” lands in Middle-earth (just as they were in real world middle ages, and as they are even now, in locations that haven't been settled yet (just try playing GeoGuessr in Canada ;) ); that's why traveling during the times of the Fellowship is dangerous in Middle-earth, and you cannot change fresh horses every fifty miles like Pony Express). I thought this was universally understood by designers (not just MCME Designer rank, but any designer in general) -- empty spaces are just as important as the rest. You don't improve a thing by filling all empty spaces.

“Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.”
—Antoine de Saint-Exupéry ;)
 
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Samfries_Taranoc

Manual Treebuilder
Guide
Just my two cents - I don't really mind it, but I think there is something to be said for making it more southern. However, my concern is what will be put in the Vale of Anduin, as without settlements there's not a lot to make it interesting. One compromise is that Methelburg as it is now would be created as a possible template, and the decision would be made when the Vale of Anduin is an active project apart from this. If it 's decided that strict lore accuracy should be preferred then it could be moved or removed, but if it's decided that leniency is alright with Upper Anduin towns, then it should stay. Personally, though, the impression I am getting is of small isolated settlements similar to Saxon "Burhs", which wouldn't be so structured.

-Reminder: This is coming from a guide who knows little-to-nothing about how building decisions are made on MCME so feel free to ignore me.
 

Glov

Hardcore MCME-er
Tolkien's intention was for the Vale to feel more like a frontier. I'm too lazy to track down quotes because tbh I barely care enough to post here, but IIRC throughout all texts he is rather explicit that by this point there would be no settlements of men north of Beorn. The only men who would dwell in the Vales of Anduin would be Beornings and Woodsmen round Mirkwood. The Vales are supposed to feel wild and barren, make good terrain instead of inserting shanty towns into empty areas. If you're so keen on making a northern town for men then work on something more canon like the expanded kingdom of Dale. If you could really care less about lore then why bother building on a lotr map, build in sp instead.
 

HeartseekerDK

Builds Diagonally
give me 1 reason why i should not be doing it, it is a place that pops up wherever i look on whatever forum map or discription i find, and tbh it does not contradict any lore, and i explained how the terrain issue will be solved, so what would be the main problem here?
I can give you a reason.
Dol Amroth isn't finished, actual quotes from the Reviving the Dead Dol Amroth thread:
"Due to the absent of some of the old DA leaders, DA was never fully finished and was left abandend, so I was choicen to lead the finishing of DA... It would be a shame to leave it unfinished. So if we all just team up now and work on it togetter, it will be finished in no time. Also, we are not allowed to start on mordor until this project is finished, so yeah.. theres that."

You mean to tell me Dol Amroth, the Iwo Jima of the server, the hill you need to be fighting on to move on to the last objective, a monumental objective, is almost done; Gondor is so close to done that it's within your grasp, and you want to start YET ANOTHER pointless project? Oh, and a potentially lore inaccurate project in an area that currently needs a lot of work before anything can be built. You want to potentially drag resources from your Bread and Butter, Gondor and Moria for a village that you can't even justify the existence of? Work it out, man. There's work to be done and this village is just you wanting an opportunity to put another project on your rep sheet.
 

BWOT

Head Builder
Staff member
Head Designer
Designer
Donor
@Patrick_0901
I am not going to discuss the lore aspect, as that has been a heavily discussed topic already and I think we have all got to the outcome it is not lore accurate.

Just to clarify to others, this is not an ongoing project, I did not approve it. From what one of the reasons Patrick did this was to make a concept. This is totally fine, you can make as many concepts as you want on whatever you want, however, it's not going to be official and won't, for sure, be the final. What mistifies me are two things:
a) As to why you chose to make this concept on the main world. This is a problem, because as Pieter said: the main map is not just a concept playground and we would like to keep it that way. The very reason for plotbuild is for such concepts made by Designer. Building on the main map without me allowing is actually a ToS violation, of course I am not subjecting you to punishment as that's more for griefing but I'm just listing the facts and rules we made on the server. In my opinion, all building happening on the main map should be in regards to any of the projects I approve which have gone under proper planning and discussion. I think we all agree that a project needs both of those things.
b) You say you will cut it and paste it back in. Sorry to disappoint you, but that is not going to happen, because as I just said, all building on main map needs proper planning and discussion. Pasting that town back in would be wrong in many ways, it would not fit in with the terrain, it uses an old rp and so everything would have to be redone anyway, it's not lore accurate. You are either doing a concept for some reason or you want to start a project, you are not doing both though. I am telling you now though, I am not approving of any project in that region for a while. Also I see it as a bit useless making a concept as we are not going to be using that rp, possibly that style and idk what else, but it's not decided.

Hope this clears things up and if y'all want to spam forums with more stuff about a 'project' which is not lore accurate and the things being discussed here are never going in the main map in the end, feel free!
 

Patrick_0901

Designer
Staff member
Designer
Bwot is right, it was never at all meant to be an omging project, i dont know where Some of you got that idea
 

BWOT

Head Builder
Staff member
Head Designer
Designer
Donor
I think going from this:
- Lets stop with the accusing tone on both sides
- Remove the work done from main map to plotworld
- Don't do it again
 
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