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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:All right so I just took a while to respond to Dicy's thread about Moderators... and it got me thinking !!!I am not a real "old timer" here, i know, but I've been here long enough to see it change. We've allready chatted about changes ... this site is like bar... and a warm,welcoming one I might add : some people come, some people go new comers become "old timers" etc... So yes, it changes constantly. And yes, the more it is developping, the higher the chances will be that same questions will be asked over and over... So... I am wondering :Is there an "expiring date" after which some subjects can be discussed again and not viewed as "redundant" and annoying ? should subjects like that be closed OR just "ignored" by whoever is not interested in posting for the 195856th time how to make a sparkly poi. Yes, it would mean "losing" the value of the input of old timers who have so much knowledge to share. And that is why it is great that someone always writes "hey, use the search engine, you'll find treasures)... but techniques evolve and so we might be missing on new ideas by closing some threads, no ?And I want to share another feeling. Closing a thread feels to some like "giving a grade"... "your thread is bad, you fail, yours is OK, you pass". I remember my first post was done in the social section whereas it should have been in the events... and I could not find it teh day after so I emailed Pele asking what I'd done wrong ? I am glad I did cause that's how I got to be in touch with Pele, but I also remember that I felt a bit rejected ( yeah, I knwo, "crackhead and paranoid me " !!!). just remember what it can feel to enter a big party that you're soooo excited to join yet you're just soooo shy !!!Newbies can no longer sai "hi I'm new" and I personnaly find it sad because somehow it feels like someone pushing the door of that party we are all in and us slamming the door closed on his nose. Of course people have said "hi" before... but not the same people!!!! And It is indeed a polite way to enter any community. yes, there is the Roll call : questions / facts / answers. I think it is great as a living memory of us all. I actually have printed it out and enjoy reading it sometimes. BUT sometimes you want to say "hi" and that's all... no further detail / OR you just ... want your own thread. Again : I remember posting my "hi anyone patient enough to explain thread". And the truth is that I know I could have found out how this works BUT underneath it all it was like : "hey, knock,knock, I am so excited there is this HoP board, CAN I COME IN" ?If i am away from Hop for a few months and come back, like Spanky for example, and then post a "hi, I'm BACK" message ? my thread is most likely NOT going to be closed... After all ... why ? In a way it would be unfair to new comers whose thread is closed.Please , see no personnal attack here : you know I really love you guys.
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I just want to share what I've been wondering lately.I think moderators and rules and respect of the rules on a site are INCREDIBLY USEFULL !!! But I just wonder if we should not re-think the policy.I love it here cause it is a democracy where we all can say what we want and what we mean .Looking forward to hearing your points of view.Shine onCassandra


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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Bendy
member
Location: Adelaide, SA, Australia
Member Since: 29th Aug 2001
Total posts: 750
Posted:Some good points cass
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newbie introductionsI like the idea of closing the "hi new person" type threads. That way the newbie introduces themselves and everyone can read if they want. The newbie can be introduced to important sections (eg meet others, articles, safety etc) and threads (eg rollcall, mug shot) and a simple but general welcome can be given.
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Also the post disappears relatively quickly so the boards are not cluttered with half a dozen introduction threads.I think closed is better than deleted though (not that I have seen one deleted), and I love the tram-am-poline
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repeat threadsWith repeat threads, I will sometimes post a link to a particular thread I remember and discuss a related(?)
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point that I have come across in regards to the topic. This works well with fairly specific topics.However, I think the problem with other repeats is that either they have been done to death recently (fire breathing was a recent hot topic - no pun intended!), or they are very general (often fuel topics, or starting fire topics). These can also clutter the board and much of the information doesn't change that often (when it does it can then be added to the older threads).Generally there are not many threads closed and when it happens, a justifiable explanation is given.Mega-threadsI still read the new additions to the rollcall so that I know who people are (even if only a he/she question). I also reread the whole thing the other day.I know I don't read every post in the "I just learned a new move" thread, but I know that I have posted in there and that my post is there if anyone wants to read it. I guess some people might think that when they post, they want others to read it, so they start a new thread.To summarise:I like the idea of a standard welcome/informative closure to introduction threads. With maybe the lifespan of a day or two (?) before closure.Repeats need to be treated on a thread by thread basis (thanks mods
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). I think once people start getting the standard closure mentioned above and start looking at other parts of the site before posting further, very general threads will become less frequent.Oooh long post!Cheers bigears!BendyPS cass, I edited my rollcall post the other day, dunno if others have done the same - you might want to reprint it!
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------------------Where's the foetus gonna gestate? You gonna keep it in a box? - John Cleese[This message has been edited by Bendy (edited 25 January 2002).]


Courage is the man who can stop after only one peanut

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Pele
Pele

the henna lady
Location: WNY, USA
Member Since: 15th Dec 2000
Total posts: 6193
Posted:The points are Cass, there is a search function with information that is useful, for everyone. If we didn't preach it so much, let's face it, it wouldn't get used, many of us would leave from frustration and there would be so much great information lost.So I am going to use your example, sparkly poi.Would you rather look at 5 threads going simultaneously about how to make them, or add your input to an established thread, where not only is your question answered and new ones pop up but you might offer a contrasting point of view that others might not get to think about if you have a new thread with ten people telling you to search instead of really starting a discussion.I admit that is one thing I am getting very frustrated about. People posting without even looking down the active threads let alone using the search. I closed/deleted several posts the other day because people opted to start topics on something that was already being discussed two spaces down the board. It is just muttled and messy when stuff like that happens, and tells me that people would rather hear their own voices, or are suffering from a me first complex than are really interested in genuine answers. One such person even acknowledged the other thread and proceeded with his/her own anyway! That is rude and disrespectful to others on the board.Bendy is right, things are on a case by case nature. But everyone must also understand the board is changing and growing. No longer is it the sweet, intimate setting it used to be, and there are "children" on here, which forces us to really push for editing and such. HoP has a really large registration number and gets new people everyday. You are a proponent of the individual introduction threads. So say all 30 new people put up "Hi I am new" threads everyday...a bit redundant don't you think when we have a really nice rollcall thread that can officially put you as one of the community?It also goes with the keeping it tidy duty.The other thing is, and you don't see this if we are on top of things, there are individuals who have posted the same thing 3 or 4 times, causing alot of extra work for us. And despite our asking these people to stop, they don't. So when you see things locked down, moved, edited or deleted, the answer may not always be so cut and dry as you might want it to. And we can always justify our reasons, which is a big thing of mine (you know how I like to overexplain!)Because of the upsurgence of new people, which is really good on the whole, there is more of an opportunity than ever for arguing, for miscommunication and such, and this needs to be stopped before it can start.This isn't even touching the bandwidth use. Malcolm pays for what we use, the more we use, the more he pays. That isn't an issue to Malcolm (so long as no one is advertising competition for him, yes it has happened). However as one of the people who is able to use this for free, and who appreciates the value of a dollar, I really want to consolodate exsisting threads as much as possible, again where the search button and resurrection of old threads comes in. This is a community, a family of sorts, and needs to be treated as such, with respect and concideration. Trust me, this board has alot of liberty compared to what some of our mod with admin discussions in the past have covered. With that libety comes alot of potential for abuse of this board and the unique opportunity to share our art and our cultures and that can't be allowed. No one is above the rules, not new people and not even us mods (we have all been edited, deleted or moved at some point as well, except Malcolm of course!
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).That is the explaination I can offer. Perhaps the others see it differently.I am a person first though. I love Home of Poi very much. I have been lingering here since it was about 4 months old, posting since it was 8 or 9 months old. I have been a mod for over a year. I have watched it's growth and changing and I believe in all it has to offer and want to contribute in everyway I can. I also support Malcolm's endeavors and completely respect his vision and his business. I like people. I love learning and sharing what I have learned. I think I am fairly diplomatic and just, and love to help out. That is why I accepted when Malcolm offered for me to be a mod. I believe in this site, in the art and in what this site has done for the art and for the otherwise scattered spinning/fire community.However, the human side of me is viewing all this as an attack and I am forced to wonder if Malcolm can trust us and support our decisions, and it is made known they are nothing personal on you guys, why then must I feel the need to defend myself or the other mods when we are following the rules set forth for us? Hmmm..I don't need to defend myself, so after all this I am going to change my answer Cass to....We are mods, much like priest/esses, with mystic powers bestowed upon us by the great god Malcolm Crawshay and so all things are because he deems it and we say so! j/k
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------------------Pele Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir...http://www.pyromorph.com


Pele
Higher, higher burning fire...making music like a choir
"Oooh look! A pub!" -exclaimed after recovering from a stupid fall
"And for the decadence of art, nothing beats a roaring fire." -TMK

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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:Pele, you know me so you know my point was just discussing things and maybe clearing up. No personal attack to you of course
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, but also by no means NOT a general attack to Malcolm (gotta love that man too
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) or Home of Poi either. When I love, I love a whole, but I just find it sometimes good and healthy to discuss. Things are changing, you are right ! and it is good to take a moment , sit back and see how it has changed and maybe even express why this or that could make us uncomfortable.Also since we are only visitors we don't always know of everything that is going on, so it is interesting to have your point of view .Change is good, but it is necessary to explain why and so i thank you for explaining. I still mean some of what I have posted above, but have now a better understanding of the "why" threads need to be closed etc. It's all good
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And about your mystic powers... WOW... so you guys do glow in the dark ?
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Shine onCassandra[This message has been edited by cassandra (edited 25 January 2002).]


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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dizzy
member
Location: manchester england
Member Since: 11th Sep 2001
Total posts: 43
Posted:Hi all!I don't think that some one's opinion shud be vewd as a attak nore shud there opinion make anyone feal defencive!I think what is inportant is unsenserd mature discusion with out ofending or being ofended! I realise what a hard job the mod's have but think thare mite be room for manovering,I think we all have to realise how are actions and words afect others!what is real wrong whith one or two threds going over old grownd no one is making any one else reed them! but saying that i think it may become frustrating if the bord was full of the same thred what im trying to say is thare is a balanse that needs to be struk and i feel we all nead to sit back and see if the path we walk is a netral and balanced one!Take care Dizz xx ps this is not at any one but at all!
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[This message has been edited by dizzy (edited 25 January 2002).]


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Spin Doctor
member
Location: Newbury, Berkshire, England
Member Since: 10th Jan 2002
Total posts: 34
Posted:Actually, list time i tried using the search... It didn't work!!!
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Damn, well hopefully it should be fine nowI'll send a mod an email if ity doesn't still!!!I still managed to find an answer to my question though, some other 'newbie' posted a topic on it... Time to get some sparklers!!!
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TaStu------------------Imagine something witty or profound was here.Visit my web site - http://www.dreamwater.net/rockerstu/


Imagine something witty or profound was here.

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sunbeam
sunbeam

old hand
Location: Madrid
Member Since: 20th Nov 2001
Total posts: 1032
Posted:Cassandra,I've been reading your posts today and can I just say you are on top form! Respect is due, girl: you've said a lot of things that I'm sure many people agree with and I can tell that you're having a good day in terms of expressing yourself (not that you don't usually say cool things, just today you are being super articulate and making loads of sense) You go girl!------------------Life in the circus ain't easy but the folks on the outside don't know yeah well the tent goes up and the tent goes down and all that they see is the show and the ladies on the horses look so pretty and the lions are looking real mad and some of the clowns are happy and some of the clowns are sad. Welcome to the freakshow.. here we go (Freakshow by Ani di Franco)

"I don't take drugs. I am drugs" - Salvador Dali

sunny

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Malcolm
Malcolm

HOP admin
Location: HOP
Member Since: 18th Nov 2003
Total posts: 996
Posted:I think in most communites there is an effort to try to keep things "tidy" and everyone happy. Using traffic lights and driving the correct way down one way streets is all good stuff.That is a form of control, and even I do not like being controlled or getting a red light when I am in a hurry. Rules and laws never work in all circumstances, but they are there to try and do more good rather than bad.The intention is always to do good and be good, however pleasing everyone all the time will never happen.The reason behind the rules is to make a better board. I expect to make mistakes and I am no where near perfect. Who is?I do encourage feedback on the running of the board (email me) and I have made many changes from feedback I have received.Pele, Josh, Charles and Flash help out lots and I really appreciate them carrying out duties on my behalf whilst I do many behind the scenes tasks. We do email each other and discuss things to ensure we are not clouded in vision.Thank you for your thoughts
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RegardsMalcolm


"May your balls always burn"

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NYC
NYC

NYC
Location: NYC, NY, USA
Member Since: 26th Aug 2001
Total posts: 9232
Posted:I wasn't sure where this comment should go but I think it belongs here... or at least am sure I can tag this on as I'm down with the threadstarter.
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It might be helpful to post the rationale behind and goals for specific groundrules. I agree with most of the moderator decisions but it does come across a bit "big brother"ish when stuff just starts to disappear. If this is a site for kids and adults, that should be made known. If not, that should be made known as well.Up until now there hasn't been enough traffic to warrant a "this is what we're about" but recently it seems that the moderators have been working overtime to maintain order. At first glance it DOES seem arbitrary that someone can post a joke but not a hello. We can discuss firetwirling and breathing, but are censoring threads that are deemed "too dangerous to children."I understand it. But to the outsider or newcomer, it may seem arbitrary, frustrating, and perhaps hypocritical. If there were a way to communicate that it may alleviate some problems.A while back I was selling stuff for my school and kids would always ask if they could pay me back the next day. They'd even get upset when I wasn't "being cool" by letting them owe me money. So I made a sign that said that merchandise could not be given out unless it was paid for. Kids would ask and I'd just sincerely apologize and point to the sign. It worked every time without compliant. It solved all my problems. It kinda made me laugh because I MADE THE SIGN, but I think the fact that it was laid out in writing made it easier to digest. It was a hard and fast rule, rather than me making a decision against them as an individual.I don't envy your jobs and I think you guys are working very hard. At least you all get paid nicely.
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Well, shall we go?
Yes, let's go.
[They do not move.]

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Cassandra
Cassandra

Froggie ... Ribbit !!!
Location: Back in Paris... for now !
Member Since: 8th Jun 2001
Total posts: 4224
Posted:Sunbeam, thank you very much for the kind words, truth is, they touched me more than you could imagine as i was...eer... let's say wondering whether to continue posting here. Thank you fo the smile and sunshine
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NYC, I think you made a very good point which makes a lot of sense to me.And sorry, I still have not changed my mind about those newbie threads. Being sometimes self concious and shy myself, I admit that those threads are to me something like "can I please come in ?". This is why I've been always responding with at least a "welcome and a
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to anyone posting such a post at least until recently. I think the roll call is a place to give "technical" infos about oneself. i love that thread too, but these are two different things for me. I respect the mod's work and Malcolm's too. I love the people here and I love that board and owe it a LOT because it has in a way changed my life in may ways
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. I think it is OK to disagree and I respect and understands your point of views.Shine oncassandra


"I want brown bread... no, that is diesel oil..."
"So I was raised in Europe, where History comes from ..."
"NON !!! La Plume de mon oncle n est pas Bingibangibungi !!!"

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cryogenic
member
Location: Sydney, Australia
Member Since: 11th Jan 2002
Total posts: 34
Posted:In that case, perhaps what we need is an alternative to the HOP rollcall for newbies. Maybe a newbie rollcall where everyone new has a chance to say hi and meet the people who have been around for a while. I can understand how people might be a bit shy about posting here. The way it looked to me when I first came along (like, a month ago or something
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) was that there is a bunch of you who all know each other pretty well, and it seemed hard to infiltrate that group.. Even though I still don't really know anyone that well, I can now see that you guys all welcome new people here and therefore I have no problems posting, but I can understand how somebody new might be a bit intimidated by it...Anyway, I'm rambling again....
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------------------If at first you don't succeed, tell everyone you did and hope they don't ask you to prove it...[This message has been edited by cryogenic (edited 29 January 2002).][This message has been edited by cryogenic (edited 29 January 2002).]


If at first you don't succeed, tell everyone you did and hope they don't ask you to prove it...

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Dru Lee Parsec
member
Location: Santee California, USA
Member Since: 6th Jan 2002
Total posts: 78
Posted:Cass, You are a breath of fresh air in a world of screaming loonies (but I'm not mentioning names
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Oh wait, am I in that group?) You remind me so much of my own daughter, or at least you remind me of the person I hope she becomes.Shine on indeed darling. I bow to your budda nature.
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For a good Prime, call:29819592777931214269172453467810429868925511217482600306406141434158089

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Posted:In respect to rules;There is a list of rules that ppl read (I'm sure they do, at least before the first time they start a new topic) before starting new topics. And if everyone abided by them, us Mods really wouldnt have to do much big brother uber-editing
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Anarchy is all well and good, as long as all the citizens understand how to make it work. As this isnt an invitation only philosophical / political BB, I'm assuming that everyone here doesnt neccessarily get it, and so we default to a system of rules, law and order.Unfortunately, as the membership grows, we have to modify the rules and their enforcement. Sometimes we might do something which seems inconsistent, this is because we are only human - just like you guys, we are trying to do the right thing by the most ppl we can.That said; if you love HOP, you most probly wont have any problems with us. Generally we only chop and change stuff when we all agree its neccessary (and we talk about these actions ALOT behind the scenes before one of us carries them out. Trust me, I feel the ever watchful gaze of my fellow moderators when I do stuff, thus I think about the justification for my actions heaps before carrying them out).I dont know if you guys notice this, but things seem to move in cycles on this board. About a month ago things were swimming along really nicely, with only a few changes a week for the diligent ppl who mod social. At the moment things seem a bit chaotic. but rest assured, things will swing around again soon enough
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We really care about HOP, and you guys are an integral part of it. Please bear that in mind if you think you see us doing something inconsistent. I'm always open for private discussion about my actions, and my email addy is just a click away.
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Seeya Guys,Josh


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