[19:59:44] Soni_WP - Hey Soni! [19:59:52] Hey I_Jethrobot [19:59:57] I'm going to grab some food for myself and I'll be right back. [20:00:59] Alright. Give me a ping when you return [20:11:04] Soni_WP - OK, back. [20:11:35] Sorry for the long wait. Just wanted to make myself a fancy sandwich. [20:12:02] So, how are you feeling after the conference? [20:12:18] No worries. [20:12:41] The conference was great. Only turned out to be too hectic for me though :) [20:14:15] Yeah, sorry that your laptop had some problems midway through. [20:14:34] Did you feel like it was a good experience for you? [20:15:32] Certainly. It was totally worth it all :) [20:16:24] Awesome, glad to hear it. [20:16:57] So what all did I miss? [20:17:06] Yeah, let's get you caught up. [20:17:27] So, let's start with Gabe and what he was up to while we were away and recovering. [20:18:08] Right. [20:18:50] Gabe basically had to get permission for us to do interviews from the WMF... [20:18:52] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:The_Role_of_Wikipedia_Mentorship_Programs_in_the_Newcomer_Experience [20:20:00] It's been reviewed, and J-Mo recently gave us approval to start doing interviews. [20:20:06] Jonathan Morgan, that is. [20:21:07] Gabe had to address one or two things with that document, and he has already started to compile editors we can contact for interviews. [20:21:37] Right. Do we have a list of editors somewhere? [20:22:11] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AH4KPRelzGb86OoPJ5B4MBzYttXdv12PIlYhaqnEdUE/edit [20:23:25] This is on Reimagining Mentorship folder on Drive. [20:23:44] Gotcha. Should I be making additions to this list from my memory? [20:25:21] Soni_WP - I think that's fine, as long as 1) They've used a help space we have listed there, and 2) They are currently active. [20:26:25] Sure thing. I will check up on the listed help spaces and dig around to see which editors are currently active. [20:29:43] Fantastic. [20:30:00] Soni_WP - So, that's what's going on in our Research. [20:31:04] Next I want to talk about Design... [20:31:30] I had a long meeting with Dustin yesterday tio start going over all the design ideas our team put forth. [20:33:35] Gabe - Welcome, welcome. : ) [20:33:57] Hi Gabe [20:34:04] Soni I were meeting so I give a general update of what's happening. [20:34:07] hey guys [20:34:12] so I can give* [20:34:51] !ping [20:35:11] I just pointed Soni to your document, and he's going to help add additional, active editors there. [20:35:29] great. I could use some help finding people seeking out AfC [20:35:42] I will be doing the same today. I can definitely help out on the AfC end. [20:36:02] but hopefully someone who isn't just doing a vanity article [20:36:53] Gabe - Yeah, I was thinking about that situation, but I think that will be easy to spot by looking at their submissions. [20:37:02] ghost Soni_WP [20:37:29] (Sorry about that, I was experiencing laptop issues) [20:37:44] It'll just take some legwork, and I'll get started on that this evening. [20:38:02] Thanks [20:38:48] Actually Gabe, while we're talking about interview candidates... [20:39:00] what were you thinking in terms of how to record our interviews? [20:39:19] I have a digital voice recorder that I use for my interviews [20:40:00] I haven't actually used one before-- but I assume you can connect it to your computer to record sound output? [20:40:12] no I just place it next to the speakers [20:40:14] Or does it have a receiver that you put next to your speakers? [20:40:18] Got it. [20:40:58] I can pick one of those up soon to prepare (there's a Staples nearby that has a few). [20:41:14] Or, is there one a type you'd recommend? [20:41:21] if you like, but for the interviews that we do together I am happy to record them [20:42:37] Yeah, definitely for our initial interviews. [20:42:40] http://www.amazon.com/Sony-ICD-BX132-Digital-Voice-Recorder/dp/B00BOXN91O/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1408740123&sr=1-3&keywords=sony+digital+voice+recorders [20:42:44] I have a version of this [20:43:01] its nice if you can get the interview off the device and on to the computer [20:43:13] easier to control the recording from you computer during the transcription process [20:43:50] Totally agree with that. [20:43:56] Thanks for the suggestion. [20:45:00] I also remember there was a space on Meta for equipment sharing-- I'll have to dig around for it, but I wonder if they have a suitable device they could lend for our project. [20:46:50] Anyway, now that you've put together an initial list of editors for interviews, I wanted to know if you could start contacting editors? [20:47:11] some might recommend using an app on a smartphone but I have lost a few recordings doing that [20:47:40] (That's fine, as I don't have a smartphone to use! :P) [20:48:27] great! glad we can avoid that problem [20:49:21] it looks like we have a green light to start interviews [20:50:05] Yeah, I saw Jmo's message. : ) [20:51:08] so I made the suggestion that we would send emails for our interview request [20:51:36] of course not all people put their email on their user page [20:52:02] thoughts on other non public ways of recruiting so as to preserve anonymity of interview subjects? [20:53:44] I might not be fully informed on this, but have we considered basically leaving a message on their talk pages? [20:56:25] yes, but I am trying to take measures to prevent interview subjects from being affiliated as respondents in this research [20:56:54] trying to preserve anonymity....and since their talk page is public... [20:56:54] Gabe - Hm, so a few ideas... [20:57:21] honestly I wonder if other researchers are this careful [20:57:36] but since it is about mentorship and that narrows down the population of users... [20:57:43] I don't think we can completely avoid using people's talk pages as a means of communication, particularly given that e-mails will not be available. [20:58:40] we could subsequently ask them to delta the message from their talk page...."this message will self-destruct" [20:58:49] *delete [20:58:49] As a part of our message, we can direct the editor to communicate with *us* privately if they are interested. [20:58:52] If we are not using the talk pages, the only option I can see is if we contact them via mail (probably MailUser) or directly (say IRC or if I personally know editors),as long as they've been around and active. [20:59:43] We can also direct them to a subpage of WP:CO-OP with instructions on getting in touch with us, for instance. [20:59:49] yeah, we could start out by seeing if we know the users via IRC [21:00:04] yeah that is a good idea [21:01:10] But honestly, I do not think other researchers are quite this careful... [21:01:53] yeah...I will ping Jmo and let him know I need to take that commitment back.... [21:02:20] there is a big difference between 1) knowing a participant has been solicited for an interview, 2) Knowing a participant has definitely been interviewed, and 3) Being able to identify participants' responses in the interview. [21:02:39] right. we will take measures for 3 [21:03:47] ok. so in that case let me just give Jmo a heads up. assuming he is ok with this change, we can move ahead with reaching out to interview participants to try and get the interview rolling for next week [21:05:04] Exactly. I think #2 and #1 are less of a concern here, for one because our audience is not an at-risk population, and two because our interview protocol is pretty mild in terms of privacy concerns. [21:06:01] (Although, we might need to be careful about minors...) [21:06:08] (Hm.) [21:06:15] (Has that come up at all?) [21:06:49] that question has to come up before we start asking questions [21:06:54] if they are under 18 we can't do the interivew [21:07:02] Agreed, I think that's best. [21:07:12] we can try to ask it in the message or at least at the start of the interview [21:08:00] OK. [21:08:43] Soni_WP and Gabe - Alright, so let's back to what's been going on... [21:09:22] I had a long meeting with Dustin yesterday to go over all the design ideas we all put forth. [21:10:27] Gabe - Your "pictures of nothing" book cover and other "clean" ideas were pretty well received by Dustin, so nice work there. That feels like the direction we will be going. [21:12:17] Aaron's discussion of social translucence over e-mail was a key part of our discussion, and we tossed around some landing page ideas to show, by example, how editors can use the space. [21:13:17] Lastly, some of the images that Siko and I were considering may be good candidates for a logo and color scheme for the space. [21:13:26] great! [21:13:40] Dustin will be brainstorming some ideas for a "focal image" this week, and I'll be talking with him next Thursday. [21:14:09] yeah the social translucence discussion is really interesting and we should talk more about what will be translucent and how it will be translucent/translated for translucence [21:15:04] I wanted to ask if you two wanted to join us for that meeting? We're meeting at 1:00 - 2:00 UTC on Friday 8/29. [21:15:12] We can also schedule a separate meeting as well. [21:15:18] I think translucence could really help with issues where people don't know what their problem is in the context of Wikipedia [21:15:48] Yeah I can be there for that meeting [21:16:01] (Gabe, that's 9:00 - 10:00 PM for you, I think) [21:16:15] (on Thursday, that is.) [21:16:21] 1-2 UTC will be a bit awkward of a time for me,but I'll try to make it [21:16:35] ah [21:16:45] i will try to make that [21:17:20] Soni - We can also try something else. Dustin was willing to accommodate our schedules for a team meeting. [21:17:40] where is Dustin based? [21:17:58] He's in California, so he's on PDT. [21:18:27] Pretty close to WMF Headquarters in San Fran, actually. : ) [21:18:55] The ideal time for me starts from 1900 UTC till about 2400 UTC, but I can manage 1-2 if needed. [21:19:53] How does Tuesday from 22:00 - 23:00 UTC work? [21:20:12] Sounds good to me. [21:20:14] Gabe - http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/ [21:23:43] Gabe - Does that work for you? It's be Tuesday 5:00 - 6:00 PM EDT. [21:23:49] hey sorry i stepped away [21:23:55] Er, sorry. [21:23:58] let me check [21:24:04] 6:00 - 7:00 PM EDT [21:24:38] yeah I could do that [21:24:46] this would be google hangout? [21:24:55] Yeah. [21:25:12] ok....i should be able to make that...I have an event from 6:30-8:30 [21:25:23] but I could show up late to that np [21:25:42] count me in [21:26:08] We can do it an hour earlier, if it's better for you. It's certainly no problem for me, and Soni, it sounds like you are flexible. [21:26:24] Yeah. [21:26:50] if that is possible.... [21:27:26] Definitely, so we'll call it. 21:00 - 22:00 UTC on Tuesday, Aug. 26th. [21:28:07] I'll set that up shortly. [21:28:34] The last thing I wanted to update you two on is about Flow. [21:29:23] I mentioned to both of you that Siko told me that their product Manager, Danny Horn, was interested in exploring whether Flow could be used in the Co-op for communication. [21:30:02] right [21:30:11] Yeah [21:30:44] We had a meeting yesterday where we planned on discussing what where Flow might fit into the Co-op based off of the Use Cases we polished up during Wikimania. [21:32:28] There was some discussion of that, but it was prefaced largely by me walking through the Use Cases document, answering questions about our use cases from Danny, and Danny doing an interactive demo of Flow with us. [21:33:40] Which was all very well and good...but we basically need to have another meeting to get into the specifics. We did determine that one potential case for Flow in the Co-op is to create an initial meeting place for a learner and mentor once a match has been made. [21:33:40] so were the use cases helpful? [21:34:25] interesting [21:34:42] from what little i know about Flow, that seems to be a good place for it [21:35:22] ...this meeting place will use Flow for communication purposes (as opposed to a talk page format). It could be used for self-introductions, but it seems to actually be quite usable as a teaching space if the mentor and learner are amendable to it. [21:36:40] Flow actually does allow virtually all wiki-markup, so it's perfectly suitable for teaching a variety of skills. [21:36:56] (I thought it did not, even after testing it out at Wikimania!) [21:37:44] So, that's an initial idea that I think has great potential. [21:38:29] That said, we haven't made any formal agreements just yet, but I am enthusiastic about implementing Flow as a part of our pilot. [21:38:36] great. writing up a quick use case would be nice to make sure we are on the same page with the people working on Flow [21:38:51] However, Flow is currently discouraging to longer conversations, and it could become confusing if the same location is being used to teach the lesson onwiki [21:39:14] (I specifically remembered that from my testing of flow, so thoguht you should know) [21:39:51] Soni_WP - Thanks, I've noted this and will bring it to their attention. [21:41:01] What they've said is that if there is anything preventing Flow from being integrated into the Co-op, that they can prioritize addressing those concerns this quarter. [21:41:31] So, they're very serious about trying to accommodate our needs. [21:41:58] Right. [21:42:08] That sounds promising [21:42:17] Gabe - With regard to the use case: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hjvXTH8W0smrnRu6v7erby344hRxk0gQuzFIFEF4xDM/edit [21:42:29] We did share this with them beforehand, so this is what we're working off of. [21:42:44] And at our next meeting, we'll be spelling out where Flow might fit into this equation. [21:43:48] excellent [21:43:54] I have to run [21:44:03] No problem Gabe. [21:44:05] is there anything else I should know before I takeoff [21:44:06] Thanks! [21:44:25] No, I think I have you filled in pretty much. I'll e-mail you if there's anything else. [21:44:31] great. [21:44:51] Thanks for joining us at such short notice! [21:44:53] ok well I will get started on reaching out to people for interviews [21:45:03] good catching up [21:45:09] bye [21:46:41] I_Jethrobot, Is there anything else we needed to dicuss? [21:46:55] Yeah, one more matter related to Flow... [21:47:47] The other task that the Flow team recommended that we do is to actually continue testing it ourselves on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Sandbox [21:48:13] ...in effort to help us figure out what features we might need for the Co-op. [21:48:51] Siko and I are concerned about moderation issues related to being able to maintain the space. [21:49:55] Right now, you can't edit other people's contributions. That could be very problematic if something breaks, we need to fix malformed content, or if there is disruptive content. [21:50:10] Particularly because we're trying to cater to new editors. [21:51:08] That... makes a lot of sense. [21:52:39] I somehow didnt think of it before while testing flow [21:52:54] Right. So, Quiddity (the Community Liason for Flow) noted this and said that this is an experimental setting, and it's not permanent. [21:53:28] ...and that lots of suggestions have been made about solutions. [21:54:35] For example, allowing [accounts/autoconfirmeds/rollbackers] to edit others' comments. Some have requested that IPs be allowed to edit others' comments as well. [21:55:23] Ah. I sense this particular suggestion will end up causing a good amount of discord. [21:55:32] Indeed! [21:55:43] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Flow/Prior_discussion-thread-roundup#Editing_Someone_Else.27s_Post_-_Permissions [21:57:33] Anyway. [21:57:42] What matters is what we need for our space. [21:58:02] Or rather, what we think is best for our space. [21:58:55] ^Soni_WP [21:59:07] Right. is it possible for us to follow some permissions system decided by us, at least until the community decides what the general standards are? [21:59:31] I suppose a simple autoconfirmed or "all users belonging to mentors list" should be good enough. [22:02:59] Soni_WP - I believe so. Flow is not due to roll out generally to Wikipedia until later in 2015, so we should figure out what our needs our, not the entire en.wiki [22:03:19] Gotcha [22:03:32] Actually, "2015 or later" is what they say, so it may even be later than that. [22:05:29] So for now we need to see if flow fitsour needs and what modifications we need [22:06:22] Yeah. [22:06:37] To speak to your idea about permissions, we may actually want to leave it open. [22:07:05] Consider if a mentor want to use a Q&A format for a test, like in Jackson Peebles' adoption program: [22:07:07] User:Jackson_Peebles/Adoption/PantherLeapord_Exam_1 [22:07:13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jackson_Peebles/Adoption/PantherLeapord_Exam_1 [22:08:11] If Jackson puts out the questions in this manner, the learner would have to respond in a separate, threaded window. [22:08:41] I guess the other important thing to mention is that learners and mentors don't have to use Flow for teaching-- they can go off and use normal talk pages if they want. [22:09:02] But if we want to allow Flow to be a useful tool for teaching, we may want to allow learners to edit other comments. [22:09:11] Indeed. [22:10:13] Still, I'll think over this some more. I understand what Flow is trying to do with restricting who can edit what in regards to communication. [22:10:21] I personally would be open to more solutions to something like this [22:11:04] Like making it possible to respond specfically to parts of a comment. [22:12:13] Yeah, I'll definitely bring this up at our next meeting. [22:13:34] Soni_WP - I also have to get going to cook dinner tonight. [22:13:40] Alright. It's late for me now, so is there anything else you wanted to fill me up on? [22:14:00] Nope, that was pretty much everything and then some. : ) [22:14:23] Alright. As for the report? [22:14:26] Thanks for sticking around. Get some rest, and Gabe and I will let you know more about interviews. [22:14:28] Ah, right. [22:15:08] The report is all taken care-- I'll be posting your version to WP:CO-OP. [22:15:41] I wrote a modified version with images and such that's consistent with the WMF's blog post guidelines, which I wasn't aware of until recently. [22:15:58] Ah, okay. Where is the modified version? [22:16:07] Let me link you to the draft that will be reviewed... [22:17:07] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Blog/Drafts/Reimagining_Mentorship_with_the_Wikipedia_Cooperative [22:17:49] Soni_WP - I'm trying to figure out how best to put in authorship credit for the post, but will probably link both of us at the bottom of the post. [22:18:05] If that is OK with you. [22:19:00] Thislooks great. [22:19:26] And yes, whatever you consider best for the authorship is cool with me :) [22:19:45] Siko and I were really bummed that we never got a picture of all of us at the conference. [22:19:50] Ughh. [22:19:58] Actually, do you have any photos of you at the conference, by any chance? [22:20:04] Thanksfor covering that for me I_Jethrobot. [22:20:38] Hmmm I will have to search but there should be some. [22:21:06] OK. Your two priorities then are to continue testing Flow at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Sandbox [22:21:07] I do have the video ofyou and Siko though :P [22:21:10] and to send me photos! [22:21:20] Aye aye capn! [22:21:22] Oh, yay! Send that my way if you can. : ) [22:21:40] Sure thing [22:21:50] See you later, I_Jethrobot [22:21:59] G'night! [22:22:09] Night
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