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fables22: I'm not sure how long you've been around, but it's not widely unknown that the forum code is quite obsolete and, given our means, hard to change under the current circumstances. So that, I think, answers your questions about what I can or cannot do.
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Djaron: Been around since 2008
Never bothered to "join" the community until 2015 exactly because the forum tool was archaic
It already was obsolete by the very day it started (as in 2008 i was setting up and administrating boards with more features already)
My 2 cents: if it is THAT an issue even for you to make your job, simply archive the whole stuff away and launch a brand new one along with the new rules, one with the features and tools both users and gog staff would need
Let the archived stuff accessible (locked) for users to at least keep, cut'n'paste the stuff tied to each game's sub forum
I'll stay away from sarcastic, snarky remarks and just say that that's a brilliant solution, however, as I said before, it won't happen any time soon. Manpower and all that, if you know what I mean.
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fables22: We don't lack a constitution - we have a set of rules that are good enough as they stand. The new ones will just replace, or more like update, the existing ones. I really don't see a problem in this. The current rules were in the policies section for ages, and anyone could see them at any time, just like you will be able to with the new ones, once they're up. But they still won't be negotiable - the chance was there for you guys to do so, but there wasn't much co-operation. However, we did take into account some of the sensible, meaningful feedback that I got back then when putting them together for sure.
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SeduceMePlz: I've been on and off this board for the past few months, mostly in release threads - I've been busy. Apparently I've missed some things - I don't recall being asked for feedback about the rules of conduct (and I suspect this might have been an example of GOG sometimes communicating important things - removal notices for example - in easily missed forum threads). Or maybe I've forgotten or didn't really realize what was being asked. Whatever the case, can I get a link to the discussion to read it please?

Let me tell you how it looks to someone who doesn't spend all of their free time here: Some of the most hateful, divisive ideologues on this board are celebrating your post as some kind of victory. They claim an interest in "civility", but these are the users constantly hurling invective - racist, misogynist, bigot, xenophobe - at other users. While there have been a *very* small number of users who expressed actual racial hatred (etc), most of the time these accusations are hurled at people who simply disagree with certain 'progressive' political or social views.

I have no reason to distrust you personally, fables - we have had some good interactions in the past correcting minor issues with the website, and I have a positive impression of you. But without transparency, it's tough to trust that increased moderation won't become what we've seen on other websites - a means for these progressives/SJWs/whatever-you-call-them to silence their opponents and police language and opinion.

For the present, I'm adopting a wait-and-see attitude. I usually drop a small cash bomb on GOG during the seasonal sales. Looking over the spring sale, I could easily spend $50 or more scooping up some cheap games for the backlog. However, in light of the uncertainty around this issue, I'm going to drop that down to about $8 and just pick up Hybrid Wars Deluxe + Season Pass. There'll be plenty of sales in the future if this all amounts to much ado about nothing.
Here you go: https://www.gog.com/forum/general/forum_etiquette_discussion_and_welcome_to_a_new_cm.
Post edited March 07, 2017 by fables22
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Djaron: Been around since 2008
snip
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fables22: I'll stay away from sarcastic, snarky remarks and just say that that's a brilliant solution, however, as I said before, it won't happen any time soon. Manpower and all that, if you know what I mean.
then i feel sorry to tell you that what you just said was in fact feeling sarcastic and snarky, despite how cleverly said

Again, in my job it is simple (yet, my job/trade may be easier than yours, given how dumb it is):

if a tool is not suited to the task, take another tool
if your tool is broken, fix it
if your broken tool can't be fixed, replace it

i guess such old-folk styled wisdom can't apply to nowadays more tech-based jobs like the internet things and such.
it is sad that such simples solutions are not available for your trade


PS: also, it is not really giving me any light or answers to my other questions a few posts above, yet (thanx in advance)
Post edited March 07, 2017 by Djaron
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Djaron: then i feel sorry to tell you that what you just said was in fact feeling sarcastic and snarky, despite how cleverly said
As I understood it, she wasn't referring to your comment, but to the blatant boycott threat and blackmail attempt in another.
Post edited March 07, 2017 by Vainamoinen
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fables22: I'll stay away from sarcastic, snarky remarks and just say that that's a brilliant solution, however, as I said before, it won't happen any time soon. Manpower and all that, if you know what I mean.
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Djaron: then i feel sorry to tell you that what you just said was in fact feeling sarcastic and snarky, despite how cleverly said

Again, in my job it is simple (yet, my job/trade may be easier than yours, given how dumb it is):

if a tool is not suited to the task, take another tool
if your tool is broken, fix it
if your broken tool can't be fixed, replace it

i guess such old-folk styled wisdom can't apply to nowadays more tech-based jobs like the internet things and such.
it is sad that such simples solutions are not available for your trade

PS: also, it is not really giving me any light or answers to my other questions a few posts above, yet (thanx in advance)
Oh no, this was not sarcasm.

Your analogy is perfectly fine, however, what happens if the person who can replace it has not got the resources or time to do so? Yea...
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fables22: Oh no, this was not sarcasm.

Your analogy is perfectly fine, however, what happens if the person who can replace it has not got the resources or time to do so? Yea...
then i'll take your word on it... then you are more than welcome to go back to my previous questions whenever you like (because some are in fact important concerns for me at least, so...)

I can understand the feeling of having to work in unfavorable context (like "lack of required ressources", "lack of support", "task requiring more time/effort than initially granted or predicted")
my last job had to be done with ressources i were never granted and that i acquired with my own purse, had to be done with some teachings involved from a superior that i was never granted so i gathered info and documentation myself to teach on my own, and way more time required than i was granted so i had to overwork without being paid for the extended time

not that i suggest you to go the same road i did, in fact... just was saying that i can understand

now, a more positive attitude is not just giving up by seeing it can't be done "yet", but keep the idea in a corner or mind and slowly works the idea's way to the people in charge above for a later future.

Because, the way as i see it, tbh, regardless of any other issues here, the forum engine by itself is already causing people issues on its own in many unsuspected or unobvious ways. And it can be tiresome to keep treating symptoms when not being allowed to deal with the source
Post edited March 07, 2017 by Djaron
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Shadowstalker16: Plainly and simply, many people understand the principle of ''don't feed the troll'' and didn't reply or care about random alts coming in and trying to start a flamewar,
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Vainamoinen: You know it's a fantasy that those were "random alts". I'm trying very hard to not name names, but I shouldn't even have to, because you know these names, you do, at least a fat dozen. Those were the regular frequenters, those were what kept the thread alive, and many only came to the GOG forum for that thing. If we're establishing as fact that what I just quoted was hate speech (if you want 1,000 more examples, sure), then you were quoting, answering to, building on and therewith normalizing that hate speech yourself. Whatever fantastically selective blinders you think people wore on that thread day by day, you can't have worn those yourself.

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Shadowstalker16: You're attaching motives and malice to the posters of a thread who barely have anything in common outside of it.
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Vainamoinen: I am attaching malicious intent to shockingly and routinely malicious posts; and I am insinuating that those who reply to exactly those posts as if they were the most reasonable thing in the world purposefully further the malicous cause and an atmosphere of hate.

I am of the opinion that people specifically came to the gamergate thread as a release valve to their hate. The "outbursts" or "posts without thinking" were therefore not the exception but the rule.

I furthermore, as a matter of opinion, lament the lack of clear cut opposition to the hateful posts, because yes of course if such crap stands undisputed, the impression absolutely everyone gets is that the opinion is universal. Where was that opposition when e.g. [redacted01] went on a pages long objectively unhinged and dangerously violent hate tirade against Alison Rapp? When I finally stepped in and brought a few facts along (and [redacted01] even eventually had to identify with the position he'd formerly called pedophilia a dozen times), you couldn't be quick enough with the downvotes.

And you know that it will be exactly like that with the next person that gamergate paints a target on her back. So, no, I don't think that GOG can allow such a thread to exist on its forums.

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Shadowstalker16: The GG thread was no worse than the many others that still dot the forum, and in many cases much better if you count the ones about ''cannibal refugee scum'' and that guy posting neo nazi cartoons or the infowars thread (somehow universally hated yet reached so many pages and retained so many people for over a month or two).
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Vainamoinen: We may not disagree that shutting down some individual members for abject and hateful ideologies (or "opinions", eh? :) ) is sorely in order. We may not disagree that shutting down the infowars thread should have happened long ago (would you at least agree that this infowars thread "channels alt-right propaganda"? Because that is exactly and exclusively what it's meant to do). But we do not agree that the gamergate news thread was "no worse" than the infowars thread. In a sense, before [redacted02], who brought you a never ending and unchallenged stream of Breitbart/reaxxion/Aurini/Corbett Report/etc. link infodumps, finally left, those threads were identical. And even last month, the outrage continuously veered outside the gaming sphere while using hateful language that I haven't yet seen from the infowars guy.

Technically, it was the containment thread that you wished for, and as you yourself have deduced, that in no way curtailed the spreading of the shit.
I understand your hate for others' hate and all, but please stop acting like I'm obligated to clean up after other people on the forum. I'm not and I won't be shamed for not doing so because you attribute the benefit of the doubt as rationally as Alex Jones.

I understand what you're referring to, and I know that that was far from civil. But having actually read most of the pages after I started posting in that thread, I can say that such posts were not the rule and were exceptions. There is no question that mentioned (and probably un-mentioned other) posts were misinformed and not based in fact. As to how much ''harm'' they caused, I'd doubt anyone on this forum is qualified enough in the science behind verbal weaponry to tell.

I'm not saying anyone could not have had bad intentions or malice when posting certain posts, but I question the malice they may have had to what you equate them to having now. The thread was lacking in opposition, without question, and addressing that to me as a complaint is only as rational as me complaining about that to you.

You should understand by now that I'm not disagreeing with many things you're saying, and that is true. I don't disagree that misinformed posts were in that thread (shocker; compared to the rest of the forum) and I agree that it wasn't smooth sailing maybe even 50% of the time. What I'm saying is that there were peaceful days and weeks where good talk did happen and there were purposes it fulfilled which no other thread did and still don't.

Re ; ''And you know that it will be exactly like that with the next person that gamergate paints a target on her back. So, no, I don't think that GOG can allow such a thread to exist on its forums.''

I don't even know what you were smoking when you wrote this. I understand you referring to the posts you described as misinformed and that they truly were, but if you actually think they were going to do some kind of tangible harm, or that this kind of talk is somehow abnormal or illegal, you need to get in touch with reality. Are fanfics of celebrities also ''harmful'' then? What about all the strange art that accumulates around them? I understand not wanting such posts to be posted, but to use them as some justification to scare people into seeing the poster as some deranged maniac is retarded. It simply is. Please recognize this abject stupidity and try to remedy it.

I agree with shutting people down if they violate the forum rules, you have the right to disperse protestors of whatever cause from your property. Shut them down in real life for wrong opinions? No. Again, the forums rules. If it appeared to be spam of content, ie exploting the forum. IRL AJ has a right to publish what he wishes with help from whoever will; while being called any name under the sun that is there for *retardedly incompetent* in other publications.

As to the spam of links, it really depends on how much damage you attribute to them.

Finally, if you think its the GG side that is in any way more habitual in committing the sins you complain of, then you're sadly mistaken. What you're complaining about is internet toxicity in general and there are MUCH bigger sources of that than this thread, gamergate or whatever group of deemed undesirables the media decides to throw under the bus this week.
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fables22: Oh no, this was not sarcasm.

Your analogy is perfectly fine, however, what happens if the person who can replace it has not got the resources or time to do so? Yea...
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Djaron: then i'll take your word on it... then you are more than welcome to go back to my previous questions whenever you like (because some are in fact important concerns for me at least, so...)

I can understand the feeling of having to work in unfavorable context (like "lack of required ressources", "lack of support", "task requiring more time/effort than initially granted or predicted")
my last job had to be done with ressources i were never granted and that i acquired with my own purse, had to be done with some teachings involved from a superior that i was never granted so i gathered info and documentation myself to teach on my own, and way more time required than i was granted so i had to overwork without being paid for the extended time

not that i suggest you to go the same road i did, in fact... just was saying that i can understand

now, a more positive attitude is not just giving up by seeing it can't be done "yet", but keep the idea in a corner or mind and slowly works the idea's way to the people in charge above for a later future.

Because, the way as i see it, tbh, regardless of any other issues here, the forum engine by itself is already causing people issues on its own in many unsuspected or unobvious ways. And it can be tiresome to keep treating symptoms when not being allowed to deal with the source
In that regard, it's on their task list and has been for a couple months no - hope that's sufficient enough as "keeping it in the corner of our mind" :)
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Shadowstalker16: I understand what you're referring to, and I know that that was far from civil. But having actually read most of the pages after I started posting in that thread, I can say that such posts were not the rule and were exceptions. There is no question that mentioned (and probably un-mentioned other) posts were misinformed and not based in fact. […] The thread was lacking in opposition, without question, and addressing that to me as a complaint is only as rational as me complaining about that to you.

You should understand by now that I'm not disagreeing with many things you're saying, and that is true. I don't disagree that misinformed posts were in that thread (shocker; compared to the rest of the forum) and I agree that it wasn't smooth sailing maybe even 50% of the time.
What's happening in the Gamergate: Origins thread right now follows the same scheme I described in #397. New enemy figure pooped in the thread, unspecified new allegations raised, circumstances left completely unclear, other people in the thread nod their heads in differing degrees of vehemence and violence, rinse and repeat, and oh boy dissent isn’t at all welcome.

You have understood that, and I quote, "I'm not seeing proof from the tweet that there is any collusion, so I won't say its collusive". However, [redacted03] implicitly did when he pooped. And [redacted04] did when he nodded. And soon the completely baseless allegations will become coveted "fact" with screenshots of the very same tweet and newspaper article surfacing on the usual screenshot bonanza websites, which the people in the Gamergate: Origins thread will of course link back to as "proof".

And the circle is complete, allegation has become fact in two easy steps™. That's not great, is it. That is, in fact, rather horrible. I think it’s the only thing the gamergate thread was good for. :|

As to my, well, I concede, demand and challenge to you personally to voice your disagreement when things go utterly awry (which, I also admit, would have meant to protest against 95% of the posts from certain members): Do ask yourself why you only replied in the Gamergate: Origins thread after I voiced protest first, and why to me only.

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Shadowstalker16: Finally, if you think its the GG side that is in any way more habitual in committing the sins you complain of, then you're sadly mistaken.
That depends on how broad we view this issue, and on how ready we are to admit that gamergate has now — quite expectedly — mostly dissolved into a larger culture war (which was fairly evident from the topics discussed in said threads by the way). There is a certain assortment of rhetoric weaponry that I would associate with one side mostly, and there is a surprisingly hostile attitude towards facts and scientific theory that I would associate with that same side exclusively.

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Shadowstalker16: What you're complaining about is internet toxicity in general and there are MUCH bigger sources of that than this thread, gamergate or whatever group of deemed undesirables the media decides to throw under the bus this week.
Please note that I’m judging the small slice of the gamergate movement that found its way to GOG on the basis of the small slice of the gamergate movement that found its way to GOG. I have no idea what “the media” is supposed to have to do with that assessment.

I possess, however, an increasing clarity about how the diverse modes that we formerly called “internet toxicity” (a, you will agree, simplistic terminology with which we maybe attempted to “throw the entire internet under the bus” as an “evil” instance altogether that can’t be fixed, and/or to argue for far reaching censorship, and/or as a blanket statement against internet anonymity) were, during the last three years, increasingly and strategically more instrumentalized to reach certain political goals, with the ultimate goal having been achieved through exactly such means last November.
Post edited March 07, 2017 by Vainamoinen
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Vainamoinen: ...
Could you please stop to drag that shit through the whole forum? If you want to discuss your GamerGate bullshit, please do it in the GamerGate bullshit thread. But don't chase your "enemies" through the whole forum. I'm NOT interested in your GamerGate fights and that's exactly why I stay out of those threads. GamerGate's got nothing to do with an announcement of an upcoming change in the forum rules (which DOES interest me - that's why I'm here). Keep. It. Out. Of. This. Thread.
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real.geizterfahr: GamerGate's got nothing to do with an announcement of an upcoming change in the forum rules (which DOES interest me - that's why I'm here).
I'm neither accepting your commands nor do I really understand how you could be of the opinion that the upcoming change in forum rules and present enforcement, which resulted in the closure of the gamergate thread, would be unrelated to the controversy. But if you do think the discussion about the validity of gamergate threads would be more welcome in gamergate threads, even taking your outburst as a means of comparison, I assure you that's not the case. I have been trying to pinpoint the problems that led us to this point, and in that respect I feel as if I've been absolutely on topic here. You just want peace and quiet on the forum, I'm all with you there, and that's maybe even where we're going, but not where we are.

The upcoming forum rules will be non-negotiable. It would make sense to make a new thread pinned at the top, immediately closed, as it marks the end of the debate. Your hunger for the concrete information will, I hope, be satisfied there in a concise way without taking larger issues into account.
Post edited March 07, 2017 by Vainamoinen
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Vainamoinen: I'm neither accepting your commands
Then accept the friggin forum rules:

Stay on topic.
https://support.gog.com/hc/en-us/articles/212182929-What-are-the-house-rules-Code-of-Conduct-for-posting-on-the-website

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Vainamoinen: nor do I really understand how you could be of the opinion that the upcoming change in forum rules and present enforcement, which resulted in the closure of the gamergate thread
There! Now you said it! It got closed. So stop beating that dead horse.

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Vainamoinen: , would be unrelated to the controversy. But if you do think the discussion about the validity of gamergate threads would be more welcome in gamergate threads, even taking your outburst as a means of comparison, I assure you that's not the case. I have been trying to pinpoint the problems that led us to this point, and in that respect I feel as if I've been absolutely on topic here. You just want peace and quiet on the forum, I'm all with you there, and that's maybe even where we're going, but not where we are.
Listen, Vaina, I'm not stupid. I know exactly what you're doing here. You're "discussing" GamerGate (or better: its followers/supporters/whatevers) in "the moderator's thread" for a very simple and obvious reason. But I think that's not the way how it works (or how it should work). At least I don't see anyone else posting crap like "[redacted01] illegaly gave his original account with the name [redacted02] to the highly problematic scammer [redacted03] after he lost a few points of rep. I will always stand up against such evil, evil things." or "[redacted01] is derailing threads with postings about inclusive language and trans topics all the time. I'd like to see more people telling that dude that this is not a nice thing to do." or "I whish more users would tell [KiNgReDaCtEd07] that his racist troll postings are not okay.".

Seriously... Just report people if they post anything that's not within the forum rules (I'm pretty sure you're doing this anyway - keeping pdfs about forum users is pretty creepy!). But, please, stop playing this stupid game. You can be sure that I'll report Tauto if he ever crosses the line again (he doesn't seem to be that stupid though). You can be sure that I'll report dtgreene when she brings her inclusive and trans topics into completely unrelated threads (because it's only annoying after a while). And you can be SURE AS HELL that I'll report KiNgBrAdLeY when he starts to post about "subhuman muslim scum that needs to be purged" again! But I won't start to clutter this thread to slowly push my views onto fables and hope to get her on my side.
Post edited March 07, 2017 by real.geizterfahr
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real.geizterfahr: keeping pdfs about forum users is pretty creepy
Had you ever suffered this constant barrage of abuse, you would have done the same.

I am pretty much done describing the problem though. I guess anything more would tantamount to mere reiteration. I hope you can rejoice.
Post edited March 07, 2017 by Vainamoinen
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real.geizterfahr: keeping pdfs about forum users is pretty creepy
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Vainamoinen: Had you ever suffered this constant barrage of abuse, you would have done the same.

I am pretty much done describing the problem though. I guess anything more would tantamount to mere reiteration. I hope you can rejoice.
RWarehall is screaming at me for stupid reasons too. He made it thus far that I read his name as "RScreamhall" or "AwareHole", depending on my current mood and the amount of nonsense he's reading into my posts. But I don't go full Stasi-mode and create a record about him. Bradley is even worse. Not that he's screaming around for no reason all the time, but because of his postings that could send him straight into jail (I'm sure there are laws against the stuff he says in Greece as well). But I still don't have any files on him. Bullshit is bullshit and doesn't become less bullshit when you're duplicating it ;)
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Vainamoinen:
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real.geizterfahr: RWarehall is screaming...for stupid reasons
That's redundant.
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Shadowstalker16: So will the new rules be coming into effect this quarter? Its important to take the necessary time and all, but I feel like the forum is a country that lacks a constitution in this current state. Granted it is still GOG's forum to run and moderate, it still wouldn't be a bad choice to show us the new rules, seeing how this has become a sort of issue in itself.
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fables22: We don't lack a constitution - we have a set of rules that are good enough as they stand. The new ones will just replace, or more like update, the existing ones. I really don't see a problem in this. The current rules were in the policies section for ages, and anyone could see them at any time, just like you will be able to with the new ones, once they're up. But they still won't be negotiable - the chance was there for you guys to do so, but there wasn't much co-operation. However, we did take into account some of the sensible, meaningful feedback that I got back then when putting them together for sure.
Ahem… <i>Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy</i>, anyone?

There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. ... What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind, it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.
Edit:
Hmm, coincidentally, it takes four clicks to get to the forum policies information:
At the top of any page: SUPPORT
Then scroll down to: POLICIES AND GENERAL INFO
Then on the lefthand side their is menu: FAQ: Forums and feedback
Then from the list that appears to the right: What are the &ldquo;house rules&rdquo; / Code of Conduct for posting on the website?

Though this seems a lot easier to find it now than it used to be some months ago before the Support pages got overhauled.

And it's even easier now that this thread is a sticky and has a link straight to the page from its initial post, just one click. Well, actually two clicks because of having to click on the sticky first. Hmm, and after clicking on General discussions, uhm, which is after clicking on the link to the Community at the top of the page. Hmm, so four clicks. Hmm, weird, I feel a bit like I'm wearing a red robe&hellip;
Post edited March 07, 2017 by thomq
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