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A user has deleted a page I created and to my surprise there was no way for me to revert the deletion. All of the administrators, sysops and staff I have informed of the deletion and from whom I requested reversion I suppose were more concerned at the time about the Occupy Oakland events. I have recovered a copy to the page, however, along with all four comments which are supportive. I need the page to be protected either by an administrator of by becoming an administrator if I am going to recreate it so that I can protect it myself. Otherwise the user who deleted it will just delete it again. Thanks. --imho 10:53, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Another administrator can protect delete a page even if it's protected. 1358 (Talk) 11:06, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
Xd: I take it you mean delete? Anyway, if the page was deleted by an Admin, you should ask them why. Becoming an admin yourself or protecting the page won't help much. - Tjcool007 (Talk) 11:15, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I do. Thanks. :S 1358 (Talk) 23:45, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
Pages are deleted all the time. You should ask the user who deleted the page why it was deleted if you don't know.  Monchoman45  Talk  Contribs  Skystone  12:50,11/5/2011 
It seems you landed in a sort of edit war on this wiki with the admin. That admin does not think your recipe is living up to the standards set on the wiki, and you think that this is a healthy recipe, which should be added.
Since you already consulted staff on this issue, i think i leave it at that. I do think that 'healthy' is debatable however and is subject to different insights depending on background and culture.
Hi imho, WikiPim is correct -- this seems to be a difference of opinions. The admin has told you why the recipe was deleted and it sounds as though she is not going to change her stance. Normally, we do not step in on these sorts of disputes on wikis.
Perhaps your recipe, Prison Diet Plan Gruel is best suited for another recipe wiki? You are also free to create your own recipe wiki if you find that Healthy Recipe wiki is not a community you wish to be a part of. As for protecting pages -- most pages on wikis are not protected unless they are main pages that are preventing vandalism. As XD and Tj have mentioned they can be unprotected by an admin as well. Good luck! --Meighan WikiaStaff.png (help forum | blog) 23:42, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Okay, first I realize now that each wiki has a founder and the founder can do whatever they want so if they do not like something it does not matter. This was a wake-up call so I won't post anything else to this wiki and having learned this I have decided to start my own wiki. As for what is healthy and what is not as a matter of opinion one of the reasons I began creating recipes in the first place is because I discovered how narrow the diet plan range actually is due to the small difference between minimums and maximums for all macronutrients. The user who deleted the recipe believes in the MyPlate plan as if by magic random amounts of fruits, grains, vegetables, protein and dairy will give you a meal of 30% fat, 55% carbohydrates and 15% protein such that serving amount is not important. Moving on the second thing that allows me to concede and walk away from this is that I was able to recover the complete recipe data plus the 4 comments other users made and repost to my healthy recipe talk page which I hope is protected. That done I have also started a new wiki entitled "Grocery Receipt Wiki" for all users to upload copies of their own grocery receipts so as to be able to compare them with the official rate of inflation. In January bread at my store was $1.88 while today it is $2.88. You can look at most any grocery receipt and see that inflation for bread is not 3.25% since January but 53%. Upload your receipts so we can keep track of inflation from all over the country not just from where I live. If you are rich and price does not matter you can still do something for the poor by helping to track inflation in this way. Thanks. --imho 11:13, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

What a founder can do totally depends on the wiki. On most established wikis the founder is just a normal bureaucrat who has to abide policy just like the rest of the administration team. 1358 (Talk) 12:17, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
The only real problem was her refusal to let me recover the data for my own records, to make changes and to repost on my own site. Fortunately I was able to do it without her. Policy here should require deleted pages be made available to the author for recovery of the content and only access or viewing denied to others. The way it is now the author can be deprived of their own work by the wiki founder. Such deprivation where I live is legally defined as theft. --imho 17:09, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
In cases of good-faith edits, it is courteous for the admin to provide you with a copy of your text that was deleted. However, on most wikis it is not required and it is up to the discretion of the administrator involved. In this instance, I'm not sure why this is even an issue for you, because (as far as I can tell) you never requested that the administrator provide you with a copy. How could she "refuse" to let you recover the data when you never asked for it?
Aside from that, your claim about theft is more than a little nonsensical. You are responsible for maintaining personal copies of your own work. In the real world it is common for any publisher to discard someone's submission without returning the submitted copy to him/her. --Gardimuer { ʈalk } 01:28, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, I did ask her several times to restore the recipe so I could recover the data. However, she deleted my requests as well. If you view the log of her talk page you can see this is true. However, I recovered the data on my own without her help and the point is mute now except for the issue of reformulating Wikia policy.
Under color of law the police may deprive someone of their rightful property and without court order lawyers, publishers, educational institutions are not normally obligated to release or return documents without all fees paid in full. She is not any of these entities nor are there any fee or color of law involved. The issue now is strictly whether under Wikia policy users are at risk of their material being deleted after it has been online for over a year. If so, you may find that such policy might discourage contributions. I will not post anymore recipes on her wiki because it does not support meals that are based on expended calorie portions of accurately balanced macronutrients but on sourcing incorrectly portioned foods from different food groups.
In regard to reformulating Wikia policy you may wish to consider that Theft is defined as follows under at least one State criminal statute:
A person commits “theft” if he or she "knowingly... either temporarily or permanently: deprive the person of a right to the property or a benefit from the property..."
Thanks for your response. Please enjoy the new wiki I started. --imho 06:56, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
I actually checked all of your edits to The13thbaktun's talk page and your own talk page before writing my previous comment. The only time you mentioned wanting your page back was this comment:
"Consequently, please revert your deletion of The Prison Diet Plan Gruel so my students will not be able to reach the conclusion that your true purpose for editing and deleting here is to commit vandalism every now and then - although going by the number of deletions your intent appears to be more than a hobby."
In this comment you requested that the deletion be reverted and you insulted the administrator responsible, which didn't help your position much. However, in that context, you were still suggesting that your recipe was a valid article for that wiki, and your request that The13thbaktun "revert [her] deletion" of your page simply meant that you wanted the content to be returned to article status. Unfortunately, you never stated that you wanted a copy of the page to be given to you for your own personal off-wiki use. If you had stated that desire clearly, The13thbaktun might have been more obliging.
As for your legal claims, I suggest that you carefully read the "Submitting Content to the Site and Copyrights" and "Disclaimers and Limitation on Liability" sections of the Wikia Terms of Use which you agreed to when you published your recipe on a Wikia site. --Gardimuer { ʈalk } 12:46, November 7, 2011 (UTC)
My purpose here was to complain about a violation of trust by another Wikia user, not to file a law suit regarding submissions or copyrights or disclaimers or liability. Trust is not a legal issue except perhaps as a matter of contract law in which a "DO NOT TRUST US" disclaimer might be considered. Even without such disclaimer this will be the policy I will now follow.
FYI:
  • My reference to the legal definition of theft is the context in which my trust was violated.
  • Reversion of the deletion was sought first because reversion would have accomplished return of the content and made the page immediately available for review followed by discussion and any necessary dispute resolution and recipe revision to suit everyone's particular health needs and culinary tastes.
  • Not providing prior warning or discussion before deletion and calling the deletion "housekeeping" from what I know now was an insult.
  • The denial that the deletion was vandalism and failing to revert the deletion out of spite is proof the deletion was not only an insult but vandalism disguised as "housekeeping".
  • I'm not one to throw out the baby to keep the [bath] water from getting soiled.
  • Please note that negotiation in good faith before the fact is how civilized people deal with each other to avoid life threatening injury and death.
  • Prisoners of war who must survive on unhealthy diets as the result of confinement or ignorance now have The13thbaktun to thank.
  • I have recovered the content of my recipe and have revised it and posted it elsewhere and my violation of trust complaint can now be dismissed or ignored as to further discussion here.
  • Have a nice day. --imho 07:29, November 8, 2011 (UTC)
I've come late to this discussion, but I do think the Healthy Recipes admin handled the situation poorly. Unfortunately that wiki seems to have a special status in Wikia (heavy contribution from staff), so going to staff with a problem may have unpredictable results. Hopefully future interactions will be more positive. -- Fandyllic (talk · contr) 9 Nov 2011 6:05 PM Pacific
It was handled out of pure spite. Having recovered the content though I realized the original recipe was not balanced according to my own research, which puts minimum fat at 20%. After a quick revision of ingredients and a new analysis to come up with a meal based on balanced macronutrients I posted the results on another site and on my talk page and stopped there. If indeed the current users, administrators and staff here can not be trusted to know what balanced nutrition actually is and cannot be trusted to refrain from such spite then I dare not post anything else here. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. --imho 11:23, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

I find editing in your own userspace 'Sandbox' or main user page first, helps when you want a log of your information (with the history) just in case an article or major block of info is rejected by admins or other editors. And if very strict have my version of an article under my userspace and have the article or the talk of the article link to my version for if anyone wants an opinion based information on the subject. I did this for a guide and it did get viewers and a lot of grateful people but eventually removed from the article. I could press the issue and was upset but I can see how they would want to not have speculation and opinion based info on the main articles and to keep it in forums and userspace. But even though I butt heads with those admins now and again it could look like spite and if I wasn't admining my own wiki prolly still think that but trying to keep a wiki on track isn't as easy as it appears. Now I for big edits or changes make it in the sandbox or as a blog entry and await admin approval, so I have at least one admin behind me if anyone (another editor or admin) has a problem.  Hollowness | Wall | Contr 23:09, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Hollowness. That's good advice I will follow. Normally I make a copy of another recipe I've done as a template and then write the new recipe in word and then just post it to the edit page. Since I started using a wireless laptop I've had to do this for speed. In this case the recipre was so old I did not have a copy on the laptop so when it was deleted I did not even get a chance to see what the problem might be either with the description or the recipe. Four favorable comments were deleted as well. No problem though. I found a copy of the original recipe on my desktop. You can find the old version and the new version at the bottom of my healthyrecipes talk page.
The question that is raised now is whether Wikia staff and administrators can be trusted and whether your data is safe and protected in their hands. --imho 19:41, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
I think we will always have the unknown factor online, Terms and Services, Policies and such made by Wikia or by the admins of a Wikia both protects and leaves hands tied. I remember I had a lengthy online story in the days of GreatestJournal (which disappeared overnight and all my hours of work gone without a trace), and let us not forget when our PC die and happen to not be recoverable. I have a few hard drives and external memory to cover myself but I have still countless hours online in guides, blogs and wikia, still that can at anytime be lost. I for a while cross posted blogs 2 different blog sites same info published, so if anything happens to one I have the other. So even though it takes more time having other medias to hold your work and info isn't something to over look even if you update backdated info once a week or month (but I know how laptops are limited I swear 30 mins of work on a laptop is 10 mins of work if I was on my PC).
And really online I assume good faith but I do not leave myself vulnerable if I can cause really you never know online. Good luck in your endeavors remember some times you catch people on a bad day (and think of it as the worst day of their lives and it isn't you but because you were the one they noticed they now associate you to that bad day of feeling) and sometimes people do want hurt people on the other side of the screen (as a troll or power trip) or they don't think about the person on the other side of the screen (they don't get they are upsetting you type thing, and talking diplomatically can fix it). When I have had my worst online experiences with people I was also having the worst real life experiences (death in the family, verbal abuse and sexual harassment at work and online bullying all complied on me) so even if they were not being 100% decent human beings my real life stress didn't help me, them or the situation. We all need to vent, and sometime online friends are perfect because they go through what you go through, you don't have to worry about the real life association or worry they don't get it cause they do understand online. I do hope you find some sort of resolve or peace with this situation so it no longer hangs over your head.  Hollowness | Wall | Contr 01:07, November 15, 2011 (UTC)
Thanks again for your encouragement and interest. Normally I make copies for every computer but in this case I never expected that an administrator would or be able to permanently delete user content out of spite. I know better than to expect data recovery after two hours of unsaved writing on a computer built in 1978 with no power backup but would never expect an administrator to simply delete data on false pretense. Myplate is only a guide and still requires the user to calculate expended calories that must be replaced and the amount of macronutrients of each food from each food group, along with the amount of vitamins and minerals to be sure each meal is between the minimum and maximums for both macro and micro nutrients. The recipe she deleted had too little fat because it was based on the old idea that fat should be minimized when too little opportunity to expend calories exists. The new recipe follows the current idea that regardless of the amount of expended calories the proportion of macronutrients and micronutrients must fall within the minimums and maximums designated for each. The recipe needed to be corrected but I had forgotten the details of the original recipe and her deletion only delayed its revision. What makes me skeptical about republication is that her reason for deletion is bogus. If you can replace expended calories with balanced micro and macro nutrients using only grains, vegetables and poultry then it is perfectly okay to leave dairy and fruits out. If she does not follow this then her edits will inadvertently be in defiance of the spirit and letter of the healthyrecipe site. It is the fact that no Wikia staff is knowledgeable of this either than now discourages me from further contribution to the healthyrecipe site. Bite me once, shame on her. Bite me twice, shame on me. --imho 22:57, November 16, 2011 (UTC)
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