From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #20 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/20 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 20 Today's Topics: [B7L] Capchered agane Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments [B7L] Re: Robot Wars Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Re: [B7L] Re: Killer Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Re: [B7L] Capchered agane RE: [B7L] Capchered agane [B7L] New B7 film [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #19 Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments [B7L] ORAC/ZEN "hearing" Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends [B7L] Capchered agane Re: [B7L] History ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:33:02 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <000601bf64b4$cf629ae0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Worst thing that happen when you go on Dangerus Misshun is you get capchered. Oh no you sa there are worse things surely like geting killed losing a limm or sufering mental angiush of losing a grate freind. Well my dear the first two are occupashonul hazerds to be sure but third do not figger in mind of hartless uncaring whizzo computer feend. I tell Blake Vila Jenna ect that it is not nesecarry to be irrashunal to sho that you care or to sho it at all but that is just cunning scheem to make them think I do care deep down I just dont sho it. I might make excepshun for Zen but he never come down to planet with us and good thing too I sa he is rather heavy. (Being computer feend I would probly be the one to hav to carry him chiz chiz.) Geting capchered happen all the time one soon learn to spot warning sines. All gards are wets and weeds and fale to see you when you hide behind small matchbox. Sekurity droid never hit you just set sceenery on fire. Troopers garding Sekrit Weapon room never see you either and fall down when you tap them litely on sholder. Blake I sa its a trap they kno weer coming but he never lissen he just think his latest rade for freedom go acording to plan. Next I try Cally apealing to her sublime alein wisdum but she just sa a man who trust can never be betraid. Lucky oik I think but wot about the man who trust nobody the alein sage hav nothing to sa about him. Then it hapen. Enter Sekrit Weapon room and sudenly fifty million troopers apear from nowhere at their head is Travis he is our sworen enemy. He hav one arm one eye and think he is something speshul becaus he hav deadly laser gun in his finger which he point all over the place but hardly ever fire (the batteris are oh so expensiv you kno). TRAVIS: So Blake we meet again. He is very good at saing this he hav had a lot of praktiss. Blake sa nothing he hav run out of original riposts by now. TRAVIS: I look forward to exekuting you in a maner more hidious than you can ever imagin. (All this time he hav sneer on his face he look like skool dog who hav just seen a cat in the herbasious borders. Also his glo of triumf is waisted we hav had plenty of time to think of all the ways he can kill us eg zap us fry us starv us make us eat prunes give us endless Lat exercises or feed us to hungry decimas.) BLAKE: (Defiant to the very end why do he bother?) Maybe Travis but I can still compleet what I came here to do. He lunge for top sekrit weapon and dashs it to floor. Travis only luagh. TRAVIS: Yor puny efforts are waisted Blake that is no top sekrit weapon it is a fake to lur you here. This do not surprise me, top sekrit weapon look like it made from two sandwidge toasters and Airfix Lancaster Bommer kit but then I fear so do the reel ones. Travis hav no brane he do not shoot us dead on spot or even tuough us up but send us to cells where we langwish and ponder our fete. This giv us time to plan our escape eg get Cally to tellipath Liberatar so J and V can come down and rescue us. This take time becaus 700 pursiut ships hav sudenly chosen this planet for fleet traning ex and Liberatar hav to hide. Traning go on for hours, huphuphup go lead pursiut ship nozecones out fins strate and no wobling at the back there. Wot do you mean you cant make TD 10 yore in Gal 8th Fleet now this is no place for cissies. Meenwhile I hav a visiter. Cell door open, swish of satiny fabrik musky perfum jingle-jangle of expensiv jewlry. No it is not Travis off-duty it is Servalan. I kno wot I want to sa to her, ''Servalan, you may be Supreem Comannder of awsome Federashun militry mashine but you hav a face like a squished tomato and kno naught about algy geom calc log ect'' but somehow words fale to come out. First thing is she do not need to kno about algy geom ect she hav loyal sientists to do her prep tho she must be runing out of them by now. Second thing her face is not like squished tomato at all she is in fact extreemly baeutiful chiz. ''Avon''she sa (just to let me kno that she remember my name I supose tho maybe she think I forget it and need reminding. This is not imposibble, living cheek by jowel with Blake can do strange things to yor memery.) ''Servalan'' I sa back (its a ritual we hav just aksept it for wot it is.) Servalan look at me with dark hipnotik eyes. Her voice is a pur and she move like a cat honestly its a good thing I dont have a newspaper or she sit on it just as I get to the foopball pages. She is skiled in the use of her hem-hem allure and suptle feminine weils, even I who normaly stand loftly above such base depravities cannot wholy resist her Mater Harry aproach. ''Avon'' she sa ''I need a whizzo computer feend to rule the galaxy with me Ill split it 60-40 with you wot do you sa?'' I think of Blake and his determind crusad against evil, of Jenna and her baeuty, Callys elfin alein grace, Vilas resulot humuour in the face of adversity, Gan and his implacible gentulness, and consider them all befor I make a decishion. ''Make it 50-50 and yore on''. At this point she rip off her filmy ballgown and ofer her body to my unrestraned carnul lusts or at least she mite if cell dont explode with white lite. Blake and others are heer all with guns and Travis is theyr prisoner. Pursiut ships hav huphuphupped to next sektor and Libaratar has returned to live up to its name for once. ''Dont worry Avon'' sa Vila ''were heer to rescue you.'' ''Blake'' I sa ''we hav Servalan and Travis in our cluches. Why dont we kill them now so they cant capcher us ever agane?'' Blake do not like this idea. ''No Avon'' he sa ''we cannot do that if we do then we are no beter than they are.'' This do not make sense to me. These two are rich and famous and hav loyal backing of most powerful rayjeem in all of hist wot could be beter than that? But Blake is adamnant as always and I hav to humuour him so we teleport back to ship cheers cheers to resum our daring advenchers in space leeving S and T behind until we meet them agane next week. Reely its enuff to make you want to leeve this revolushonary lark and setle down with a good woman maybe hav a steady job raze a family and CHIZ CURSES WOT AM I SAING? Cue end creds and why do my name come after Jennas she dont sa half as much as I do. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:56:57 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: <00e201bf64b7$7436bb80$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The gist of it is that a >neuroscientist (I think by the name of Michael Persinger, but I don't >guarantee to have remembered it correctly) has been playing around with >using magnetic fields to stimulate specific areas in the brain to fire >in unusual patterns, and has been getting some very interesting results. >He can reproduce certain hallucinations to order - hallucinations that >fit very well with some of the experiences described by people who claim >to have seen ghosts, angels, and aliens with unnatural desires. Only >some people are susceptible to this, but you can accurately pick out who >they are by examining their neural patterns with the equipment before >you start feeding in new signals. Yes, I've heard of this but I think it is a red herring (from the point of view of mind control that is). I think myself that it is like the use of hallucinogens - it stimulates the brain to produce pseudo-sensory impressions, but I don't believe you can fine-tune it to order to produce exactly the images you want. And - here I am just speculating - I would imagine there is pressure on people carrying out research to be rather 'bullish' along the lines of 'we'll be producing precise sense impression to order any day now' rather than 'frankly we are floundering around and we don't know what will happen next'. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 09:10:41 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Robot Wars Message-ID: <388973EF.7954722E@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison said: > It's just on because the kids like it you understand. Grossly unfair! I can't hide behind that excuse. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson "In my world, there are people in chains and you can ride them like ponies" The alternative Willow, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:39:56 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Message-ID: <20000122183956.A1900@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 05:36:41AM -0800, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > Sally Manton wrote: > > > To be honest, I don't think I could live comfortably with any of them. > > Okay, but if you *had* to pick one? And no fair choosing Orac > unless you agree to keep him switched on . Cally. Though if she started holding Greenpeace meetings in my house without asking me, I'd get annoyed. And of course there's the culture-shock factor. But we'd be similar enough (IN*J!) that I think we'd get along. And she *does so* have a sense of humour! I agree, Avon would be a pain to live with, because unless I could develop a "he's just being a bear, he doesn't really mean it" filter (like I do with my brother) then I'd probably be crushed by all his cutting remarks. *Working* with Avon is another matter. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: 22 Jan 2000 10:10:52 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Killer Message-ID: <86vh4mii8z.fsf@tezcatlipoca.algonet.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>>> "Kathryn" == Kathryn Andersen writes: > When did Kate W-something write "Where Late The Sweet Birds Sang"? Wilhelm, and it was published in 1976. I think several of the stories in it had been published separately before that. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Maintainer of the Blake's 7 mailing list. Mail for info. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:31:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri 21 Jan, Andrew Ellis wrote: > >What the B7 Future seems to have, that we don't, is some fairly practical > >means of implanting and/or deleting memories, which is entirely unlike > >'brainwashing' as we know it today. So, they delete from Blake's brain all > >his memories of nasty things being done *to* him, but leave all the > >memories of nasty things *he* has done... > > I always thought that the phrase used in the series was that his memories > were blocked, and that because of his recent trauma, his brain was starting > to work its way around around the block. Hence the need to frame him, > perhaps using simple hypnotic techniques for the children. Planting memories > I imagine would be reasonably easy, and is certainly not new to Sci Fi. It is in fact scarily easy to make children remember things that never happened. I read some research on it recently where children were given leading questions about things that had happened during a visit to their classroom. Many of them developed skewed recollections (though some reverted to a more accurate version when asked if they were really sure). The really scary bit is that the children who remembered wrongly were extremely convincing when interviewed by experts who did not know the experimental set-up. This particular experiment was over several weeks (if I recall correctly) and that sort of technique would be too slow for what was pulled on Blake, but Andrew's suggestion of hypnosis is possible, especially if it was followed up by reinforcement. It is also likely that the children were abused in some way as that would set up a genuine fear that could be utilised. While we can't delete memory as far as I know, it is possible for the human mind to separate memories. They've now found a clinical basis for multiple personality disorder. Brain imaging shows that different parts of the brain are accessed when different personalities are dominant (at least for the person studied) Maybe, they simply created a new, separate personality for Blake? I can see some drawbacks to that theory, but I'll leave them for others to point out as I'm too sore to type any more. Jduith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:44:02 -0700 From: Penny Dreadful To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-Id: <4.1.20000122023915.009963c0@mail.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" So I sez: >>they delete from Blake's brain all >>his memories of nasty things being done *to* him, but leave all the >>memories of nasty things *he* has done... So then Andrew Ellis sez: >I always thought that the phrase used in the series was that his memories >were blocked, and that because of his recent trauma, his brain was starting >to work its way around around the block. What I mean by 'delete' is like deleting a file on a computer (not that I know anything more about computers than about neuroscience, except inasmuch as I have been given more opportunity for hands-on practice) -- as opposed to 'erase' -- so, yes, I guess I mean blocked...but I think that Blake's memory recovery was not merely due to general trauma jarring something loose in his head, but rather to the highly unlikely almost-repetition of an extremely 'exciting' event giving him some sort of hook, mnemonic, cue, um... Like, say I am trying to remember the name of Frank Zappa's daughter, but I can't; I wrack my brain, I know it's in there somewhere, but it just can't be accessed...until two weeks later I am watching a documentary about Man's triumphant conquest of the Moon, and I start singing "Val-ley girl..." and instead of ignoring myself as I usually try to do in such circumstances, I ask myself: why in the name of all that is holy did you suddenly start humming that putrid piece of pop awfulness while looking at a picture of that there moon unit, and then I scream "Moon Unit! Eureka! Moon Unit! The name of Frank Zappa's daughter (who sang that horrible 'Valley Girl' song) is Moon Unit!" until the neighbours call the police and have me put away for acting peculiar (they are all out to get me, after all). And then starting from this one recollection I can, if I care to, fish all manner of long-dormant trivia from the depths of my brain...remember reading a Valley Girl Lexicon in a teen pop magazine which had Billy Idol on the cover, ah remember my shock when I first realized what 'Dancing With Myself' *really* meant etc. etc. (you're not even reading this, are you? I'll bet you stopped reading somewhere around the first instance of the word 'Zappa'). Um. Yeah. Well in any case they've got about a thousand years to come up with something, and really I have to assume that compared to, say, exceeding the speed of light, pretty much any scientific advancement is relatively plausible. --Penny "Wicked Stepmother Of Invention" Dreadful -- For A Dread Time, Call Penny: http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:36:24 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <02f401bf64dd$b11a8b00$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brilliant, Neil. Una ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:53:06 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: In message <00e201bf64b7$7436bb80$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>, Alison Page writes >And - here I am just speculating - I would imagine there is pressure on >people carrying out research to be rather 'bullish' along the lines of >'we'll be producing precise sense impression to order any day now' rather >than 'frankly we are floundering around and we don't know what will happen >next'. Actually, in the last couple of years he seems to be more interested in saying the latter:-) It appears to be something to do with trying to avoid having his work and himself classified. What he was saying in the most recent article I've read was obviously somewhat filtered, but it did sound as if he'd encountered the mindset you were talking about - people who *want* to believe that brainwashing can be done to order - and wasn't entirely happy about the flights of fancy they had about where his research could lead. I don't see this stuff being used to implant detailed memories a la The Way Back, but it is certainly capable of creating specific sensory impressions that people interpret as real memories. Their interpretation depends very much on their mindset. This is why I could see this technique being developed into something that might be used to reinforce other methods, so that you *could* create memories that seem real. Only memories that can flow out of those sensory impressions you can create, of course, but even that could have its uses. Imagine being able to discredit someone, by convincing them they'd been abducted by aliens... It is actually very easy to create false or distorted memories - we do it all the time, usually to ourselves. Just ask any police officer about eyewitness testimony. There is a lot of work on this aspect of false memory, and it's very clear that people "fill in" the gaps in their memory, and then that "filler" becomes real - they are unable to distinguish it from the genuine memories. There is also strong reinforcement by the group - if you try the "What colour shirt was he wearing?" experiment, and ask people to write down their answer and hand it to the experimenter, and then a short while later ask for their answers in a group setting, many of the ones who hear other answers before giving their own in public will edit their answers to fit in with the group consensus. Some of them appear to actually edit their memories, and a few days later will be convinced that they also gave that answer the first time, when they were asked to write it down. The trick with brainwashing, of course, is firstly to create the memories you want, and secondly to create the *attitude* that you want. It's easy to play with people's memories, it's much harder to change their personality. It can be done, of course, but drugs and surgery, at least today, are crude and frequently don't have the desired result. That's why Penny's suggestion was so nasty, because it's a plausible way to manipulate Blake without changing his basic personality. Change his memories of what he's done and why he did it, and you can make his behaviour look immoral to himself without having to first change what he considers to be immoral. It's also going to be a lot more convincing to the people who know Blake if he appears to have had a change of heart rather than a change of personality. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:10:52 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: b7 Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: In message <000601bf64b4$cf629ae0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>, Neil Faulkner writes Not fair, I've got a cough left over from the flu, and it *hurts* to laugh... >Cue end creds and why do my name come after Jennas she dont sa half as much >as I do. I'm glad someone else has noticed that:-) -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 18:14:18 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: b7 Subject: RE: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99FAF1176@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Neil wrote: > Next I try Cally apealing to her sublime alein wisdum but she > just sa a man > who trust can never be betraid. Lucky oik I think but wot > about the man who > trust nobody the alein sage hav nothing to sa about him. No fair, indeed. > This do not surprise me, top sekrit weapon look like it made from two > sandwidge toasters and Airfix Lancaster Bommer kit but then I > fear so do the reel ones. It's a good thing I was alone and not eating or drinking anything when I read this one. Thanks Neil, this was the funniest thing I've read since 'Good Omens' Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 20:20:01 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: Lysator , Freedom City Subject: [B7L] New B7 film Message-ID: <388A10E3.B1D96A9A@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's an interview with Paul Darrow in the February issue of Cult Times in the UK, mostly about The Strangerers. However, he does talk a little about the planned B7 TV movie, and it seems clear they still haven't got the necessary funding. "There are a number of interested parties, Sky being one of them," he says. He is still hoping to start filming in the autumn however. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson "In my world, there are people in chains and you can ride them like ponies" The alternative Willow, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:37:58 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #19 Message-ID: <388A2335.6E0D@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > << Rebel Recruit Mary-Sue: Avon, I really like you. > Avon (dryly): Isn't that nice. >> > > Wanna start a pool as to how much longer she survives? > I'd give her 3 days, tops. > > Nina > Later that episode... Soolin> Well, we almost got stranded on that extremely hostile planet. At least I had the chance to get a good target practice. Dayna> Too bad we ran out of bullets and explosives. Vila> We would have been done for if Avon hadn't got back for us in time. Tarrant> Yes, Avon. How did you get back so fast? You said there was a leak in the fuel system making it impossible to steer. Vila> And what happened to Mary-Sue? Avon> Who? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 23:35:15 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments Message-ID: <052e01bf6531$5890c9f0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: > Now, tying my 'brainwashing' research in with Blake (and Avon in RoD) I > think a couple of things are interesting: > > - Torture and brainwashing don't really work very well, and they never have. > It is easy to break and hurt the human mind, but harder to manipulate it in > the way you want by brute force > - Torture is supposed to lead to 'truth' but it merely scares people into > generating elaborate fantasies or to saying back to you what you want to > hear (torture does however work as a means of frightening a civilian > population) > - Brainwashing is supposed to lead to 'control' but it is more likely to > lead to catatonia, hysteria, and faking (people can fake very well when the > alternative is 'back in the isolation tank') > - Same thing goes for hypnosis - faking is most common, and desire to please > - The best method of all (as far as I can tell) is to put people into > horrible conditions and then 'rescue' them and then exploit their gratitude > > I'd still write a story with brainwashing in it, but I think the idea of > control is nothing more than a macho fantasy - to do away with the > hit-and-miss of propaganda and persuasion, and to turn people by brute force > into controlled machines. You can see the appeal to secret services. This was all really interesting, as have been the subsequent posts. Plus we watched 'The Ipcress File' today. Also, I just finished reading 'Regeneration' by Pat Barker (which I thought was *rubbish*, BTW), and was thinking about the final section in that where the other doctor 'cures' a soldier's muteness through a combination of electroshock and threat, or torture, as we might otherwise describe it. Fear seemed to work very well there as a way of getting the person to do what you wanted him to do - tho' I wonder how long before the man had a complete breakdown. It struck me as well that various types of therapy focus a great deal on asking the client to reconsider 'false' thoughts and attempt to reconfigure them within another way of organizing their view of the world. This strikes me as a form of persuasion which could well be manipulated or misused. But then it's not really brute force, so I suppose we're no longer talking about the same thing... Una ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 21:15:22 EST From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] ORAC/ZEN "hearing" Message-ID: <27.d6d84b.25bbbe3a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...and sighting. Was doing housework here in Central Florida while we listened to the Saturday Night banquet of British Sitcoms. I suddenly realized I recognized the voice of ZEN talking to the characters in WAITING FOR GOD. Sure enough, there was Peter Tuddenham, looking the same as the last time I had seen him in the 1980's, and sounding the same as he had as the computers of B7. Leah ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:16:42 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends Message-ID: <20000123061642.46416.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kathryn wrote: If you do, I'm sure there are several people on the Liberator who would pay for a copy. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 22:18:11 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <20000123061811.59830.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Oh joy oh glee, more... and I almost can picture it too... Avon and Vila in the style of Searle (and in *those* uniforms) is a mental picture to treasure (Cally and Jenna would of course be in St Trinians gymslips). Shhh! This is wot we call Suspenshun of Disbeleef... Make 'em eat prunes, I say!! Maybe if you and Blake let her get a word in...oh, god, my sides hurt from laughing. This is just wonderful. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 01:51:10 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] History Message-ID: <388ACF0C.60FF9B2F@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith Proctor wrote: > > Blake won't have paid for his dream of freedom with lives that > > aren't his to spend. > > I think the fact that you've not studied history is probably why we disagree so > much. I've not studied much, but I think I've read more than you. I also > suspect that American media report less news outside your own country than is > typical in Europe. I've already said I know a great deal less history than you; and as for media, I completely agree; which is why the only news I ever bother to watch (albeit rarely) is ITN world news, which as I understand is imported from Britain. I suspect the reason we disagree is far more basic; the fact that you seem to think more knowledge of history could, or *should* change my mind is a clear indication that we have basically incompatible perspectives. I'd be ashamed of myself if such a thing did change my mind; history tells us what happened, but it's not a yardstick for right and wrong. > The actions (and death toll) of some legitimate governments against their own > people is truely staggering. For example, you mentioned that the Russian people > eventually ousted their government as your father (or was it grandfather) > predicted. It sounds so peaceful until you look at how many people were > systematically killed *before* that happened. I'm not even going to quote the > figures because I think you'd find them too high to believe unless you > researched them yourself. Actually, the fellow who told me that was not a relative; he was a friend who was an Air Force officer attached to the Pentagon. I get the impression that you think that either I don't realize the extent of suffering and dying that must be going on, or else I am so cold-hearted that I just don't care. Neither of those is the truth. In fact, IRL I am very soft-hearted. But you've gone back to taking a body count again, as many times as I've tried to make clear that I don't consider that a valid basis for making moral/ethical decisions. I quite understand if you feel that's the bottom line, many people do; I don't. I believe right and wrong are absolutes, and are not changed by numbers or historical perspectives. In this much, at least, I think that both Blake and Travis would agree with me. (Duel) If you are tempted to suspect that I can accept this sort of judgment because the effects don't rebound on me personally, please don't; as I am certain is true of everyone else on this list, I can and have had to make difficult decisions where making the right choice had profound negative impact on me personally. Happens to everyone. > > It's a fiction of popular culture, and even taught in some schools, > > that the American Civil War was about slavery. It wasn't. It was > > about economic issues. Slavery was used as a red herring to turn > > it into a sort of 'holy war'--a false justification for an unjust war. > > Slavery was on its way to an end *without* the war. > > Actually, according to the excellent documentary I was watching over Xmas, the > cotton gin had made slavery more economic than ever. If the war had no > connection with slavery, then how come the states took sides depending on > whether they were pro or anti-slave? > > Economic issues *were* slavery. The south's economy depended on it. The > north's did not. I think we're at cross purposes here. Your original comments seemed to imply that the US civil war was a good thing because it ended slavery. Slavery would have ended without the war (both the north and south had plans to do so). The war was about whether or not the southern economy would be crushed by the procedure. It would have been much better if slavery had ended without the war, so no, I don't think the war was a good thing. > Lives vs. quality of life, with Blake making the decisions. > > Those sorts of rights are vested in legitimate governments, but > > Blake isn't one; and until he can get himself one, he only has a > > right to spend the lives of people who've ceded him that right. > > to put the issue in reverse - how does a government retain legitimacy? does a > non-elected government *have* legitimacy? I don't think it's reversible. My best guess for how a government *loses* legitimacy is when it violates its own laws in turning against its own people on a widespread basis; for that reason I'm willing to postulate that the Federation has lost its legitimacy, at least insofar as Blake is concerned. That *doesn't* automatically confer that forfeited legitimacy on Blake. In particular, it doesn't give him authority over other citizens who either don't believe the Federation has lost its legitimacy, or who prefer (for whatever reason--including being drugged) to live under an illegitimate government rather than to rebel and risk suffering and death for themselves and their families. > Let's take Albian as an example ('Countdown'). The people tried every legal > method to leave the Federation. When that failed, they rebelled. Were they > right to do so? > > I am positive that the people were not asked whether the federation base should > be attacked - difficult to have a surprise attack if you have a referendum > first. > > Was Cauder in the right to start that attack? No way to tell. We have significantly less information about Cauder's authority and responsibility than we do about Blake's. Perhaps he was the previous head of government when the Federation took over? Or it might be, that the Federation violated its own laws in order to prevent Albian from leaving, in which case, rebellion could be justified. In any case, Cauder's people attacked only a Federation base; the dialogue makes it quite clear that Cauder did *not* expect the solium device to be activated; and in any case, Cauder did not activate it himself; it was a brutal Federation response. Significantly different than the deaths which would be a *direct* result of destroying Star One, which would be Blake's direct action, not a Federation response. I repeat; the difficulty I have with Star One is not the fact that people will die; it's Blake's lack of right to make that decision. I find it more than a little baffling (and amusing, in a twisted sort of way) the apparent discontinuity in the attitudes towards the events in Star One and those in Stardrive. Avon clearly has the authority to sacrifice Dr. Plaxton to save the others; and yet when I've said I believe he did the right thing, I get an argument. Blake, OTOH, has no authority over either the 'many, many' who will die, or over the equally vague number he wants to free, and yet this is somehow a noble and heroic decision in many people's estimation. IMHO, that is completely backwards. Can it possibly be that it's easier to accept the death of the faceless 'many, many' than a character with a face and a name and a few lines? Or is it just because Blake is a more traditional heroic type who seems warm where Avon seems cold? > > Let me ask you one, that's closer to how I see Blake's position: > > The vast majority of American colonists were not in favor of > > the American revolutionary war. Do you think it was all right > > for the relatively small bunch of rebels to force rebellion on the > > majority? > > Firstly, the situations are nor comparable because there was a method of > determining the desires of the people, namely the Continental Congress. Blake > had no method of measuring pubic opinion. So you measure right and wrong by taking a vote? I don't think the Continental Congress had any right to declare independence unless the British government had lost its legitimacy--something I've never seen any evidence of. > It didn't start as an all-out war. It began as small scale conflicts and it is > probable that the final result was not forseen (nor necessarily intended) by > either side. Real life is far more messy and complicated than we like to think. Which is why I prefer decisions made on basic principles, instead of flip-flopping every time some new detail comes to light. > Compare Germany bombing Coventry and London. Coventry was a major industrial > city - many civilians died in the bombing, but it was a militry target. London > was bombed deliberately to kill civilians and was thus not a valid target (any > more than our own bombing of Dresden.) Obviously we disagree again; all the citizens of two countries at war are at war. > > I'm afraid I can't agree that rebel leaders, however righteous > > their causes may be, have the same range of options open to > > them that legitimate governments do, with regard to civilian > > populations. > > You're right (but for the wrong reasons). It's far easier for legitimate > governments to kill massive numbers of their own civilians. Hitler was > 'legitimate'. Five million jews, gypsies, etc, were killed quite legitimately. No. As I've said above, when a government begins slaughtering law-abiding citizens wholesale, it's lost its legitimacy. > I'm with Tanya. If I could have blown up Hitler at the price of my life and > a handful of innocent people, I hope I'd have done it. Well, I think Hitler was an acceptable target, at least once the war started. I might have done it, too. I'm not sure Blake would have, though. He didn't kill Travis and Servalan when he had the chance. They weren't as influential as Hitler, of course, but they were appropriate targets, and it would have had an effect. Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #20 *************************************
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