The Flat Earth Society

The Flat Earth Society => Suggestions & Concerns => Topic started by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 21, 2019, 10:01:19 AM

Title: Appealing Bans
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 21, 2019, 10:01:19 AM
Is there any way one can appeal a ban without creating an alt?

I found during a recent period of time on the naughty step that one can't PM anyone or post anywhere - not even in the lower fora or S&C - while banned.
So is there any way that someone could appeal other than creating an alt which I can't imagine you want to encourage?
If there isn't, shouldn't there be?

Interestingly, it looked to me like you can report a post while banned and vote in polls.
Not sure if that's as intended but thought I'd mention it in case you want to look into it.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 21, 2019, 10:10:57 AM
Is there any way one can appeal a ban without creating an alt?

I found during a recent period of time on the naughty step that one can't PM anyone or post anywhere - not even in the lower fora or S&C - while banned.
So is there any way that someone could appeal other than creating an alt which I can't imagine you want to encourage?
If there isn't, shouldn't there be?

Interestingly, it looked to me like you can report a post while banned and vote in polls.
Not sure if that's as intended but thought I'd mention it in case you want to look into it.

You can send me $100 and I will be your e-lawyer, appealing on your behalf.

Surely by the time they have banned you, a judgement has been made? There is no appeal, you are now serving your sentence. The smart thing to do is to appeal the warnings you are picking up along the way and get them rescinded, thereby leaving you not precariously sitting under the Sword of Damocles.

My preference is to just take the ban and then send a poisoned PM to the mod afterwards telling them that you will hurt their family. But I'll do me and you do you.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 21, 2019, 10:30:30 AM
Surely by the time they have banned you, a judgement has been made? There is no appeal, you are now serving your sentence.
Maybe. But yes, banning a person is a judgement call. But so is issuing a warning. You can appeal the latter but not the former.
If I ran the world, which inexplicably I don't, then there would be some mechanism for appealing any mod decision, including the issuing of a ban.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 21, 2019, 10:33:40 AM
Banning you isn't a black and white choice. It is more of a feeling. That they are sick of you and would rather you didn't exist for a little while. And because they do run the world ... poof ... you disappear and we all get a little holiday from you.

If someone thinks you are a dick, you can't really appeal that. You just have to wait for them to forgive you; hence ban. They decide it might take 3 days to forgive you ... 3 day ban it is.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 21, 2019, 10:53:03 AM
They do run the world, but this section shows that they are open to the principle of their decisions being challenged.
It wouldn't be difficult to make it so that principle is extended to challenging bans.
Let's see what our glorious leader(s) say.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Toddler Thork on May 21, 2019, 11:00:43 AM
No. This is a placebo forum. Its like being able to vote for an MEP in the euro elections. You feel like it makes a difference so you go along with it, but really all of the decisions are made by the commission anyway.

I don't remember ever seeing a ban overturned. Not once. In 7 years. All the hundreds and hundreds of bans ... I can't point to one single ban that was over turned. In no way is this S&C board here to allow you to challenge a ban. It is here to give the veneer of fairness. I'm not sure why you haven't figured this out yet.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 21, 2019, 11:48:30 AM
I don't remember ever seeing a ban overturned. Not once. In 7 years.
I can immediately think of two off the top of my head: EJ and QED. Both terrible decisions, of course, but they were made nonetheless.

Is there any way one can appeal a ban without creating an alt?
You can e-mail admin@tfes.org or contact@tfes.org.

That said, ban decisions are not taken lightly - it's usually a last resort for the particularly unreformable. By the point you're receiving bans, you will have received plenty of instruction on how to fit in. If you're unwilling or unable to do that, no amount of e-mails and appeals/temper tantrums will help you. If you are willing and able, then you'll wait out your first short ban, realise that we were serious when we asked you to adjust, and never have a problem again.

In your specific case, we've already had multiple discussions with you on the matter (a whopping 9 warnings prior to any action!), including when you received your final warning (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=13327.msg182332#msg182332). We know you disagree. Unfortunately, that falls under "unwilling or unable to adapt".
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 21, 2019, 12:31:42 PM
9! Well done me. But I wasn't talking about my specific case, I was happy to serve my time.
If there's an email address then fair enough. That wasn't clear though.
So I'll amend this suggestion to maybe that could be made clearer when people are banned?
If people are banned for short periods then they should just suck it up as I heroically did.
For longer or even perma-bans, I think some more obvious way of people knowing there's a way to start a conversation about them coming back would be helpful.
You may want to consider partial bans where people can still post in the lower fora if they're being naughty in the upper, but are not "lolz, erth rund" trolls.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 21, 2019, 12:47:23 PM
For longer or even perma-bans, I think some more obvious way of people knowing there's a way to start a conversation about them coming back would be helpful.
I disagree. If someone has caused enough trouble to deserve a permaban, the last thing we want is them spamming our inboxes. The contact@ inbox is bad enough as-is. The point of a long ban is that we want to see less of someone, not more.

By default, you will have received an email from admin@ every time someone PMs you, including warning messages. contact@ is listed in the contact session of our homepage. Making it any more prominent would just mean 1+ e-mail per ban. Not gonna happen. You're allowed to appeal, but we're not going to beg you to.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Cain on May 22, 2019, 02:19:56 PM
The smart thing to do is to appeal the warnings you are picking up along the way and get them rescinded, thereby leaving you not precariously sitting under the Sword of Damocles.
Thork is being uncharacteristically smart here. Heed his advice.
My preference is to just take the ban and then send a poisoned PM to the mod afterwards telling them that you will hurt their family. But I'll do me and you do you.
Nevermind.
I can immediately think of two off the top of my head: EJ
Thanks for that, by the way.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Science Supporter on May 29, 2019, 11:10:36 PM
Perhaps what you can do is create a temporary alt and say in your ban appeal that this is temporary, and once it is fixed, you can delete.

A better way to handle with these types of problems, is a separate forum for help that only moderators can respond to, however other users can create a new thread. You can still post in that forum even if you are banned, (not for permanent ones though). I really support this because it is better for many mods to agree for the ban versus one mod having a bad day and yeah.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 30, 2019, 08:56:55 AM
Perhaps what you can do is create a temporary alt and say in your ban appeal that this is temporary, and once it is fixed, you can delete.
That's a fantastic way to get your ban extended. I'd advise against doing that.

I really support this because it is better for many mods to agree for the ban versus one mod having a bad day and yeah.
If you ever identify this as a problem that actually occurs, give us a shout. In the meantime, rest assured that we discuss most bans (other than the extremely obvious spam ones) prior to issuing them. It's also why you're afforded several warnings before your ban - it won't be a single day.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 30, 2019, 10:59:16 AM
It looked, from my time in the slammer, that you type in a personalised message the person sees while banned?
Or do you just put the date they're allowed back in?
If the former, couldn't you put something in there about how to appeal? Maybe on a case by case, for fly by spammers you wouldn't want to see them again anyway.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 30, 2019, 11:29:41 AM
It looked, from my time in the slammer, that you type in a personalised message the person sees while banned?
Yup, there's a ban reason that should be showed along with any ban message. This is the same as the "Reason" column in the public banlist (https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?action=banlist).

If the former, couldn't you put something in there about how to appeal? Maybe on a case by case, for fly by spammers you wouldn't want to see them again anyway.
Right, that's just another way of asking for the same thing. I understand you might not agree with my reasoning, but it remains unchanged. We will not be actively asking banned users to appeal their bans. You already have plenty of opportunities to discuss the warnings issued in advance, and if you really want to keep pushing it, e-mail contacts are available. If you're too lazy to respond to an e-mail, then I'd argue you don't care so much about appealing your ban.

It's all well and good to say that we're open to being challenged, but at some point a decision needs to be made - we can't endlessly discuss every mod action undertaken, it's simply not practical. In a normal case, you will have already scored 3+ warnings and discussed them if you were confused or felt a mistake has been made.

If, in your view, we made 4+ mistakes in a row (3 bad warnings, some bad failed appeals, and finally a bad ban), then we're clearly fundamentally unreasonable and/or dishonest and you should move on. And if the 4+ actions came from you refusing to accept the rules, then we would probably like you to move on.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: AllAroundTheWorld on May 30, 2019, 02:15:13 PM
I didn't get an email about my ban.
I don't entirely disagree with your reasoning. I think there could be more obvious "contact us" information but I take the point that you don't want to be spammed any more than you already are.
Title: Re: Appealing Bans
Post by: Pete Svarrior on May 30, 2019, 02:24:47 PM
I didn't get an email about my ban.
I don't think that's what I suggested, and if I did it was unintended. I said you'd have received at least 3 e-mails as a consequence of warnings, unless you consciously chose to disable that.

I don't entirely disagree with your reasoning. I think there could be more obvious "contact us" information but I take the point that you don't want to be spammed any more than you already are.
It's hard to tell what is and isn't "obvious". As someone with access to the main contact address, I can tell you that many stupid people (flyby shitposters, journalists, etc.) can find it without much trouble. I can only imagine how bad it'd get if we pushed it further.
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