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Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?

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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:30 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:Much of the anti-Manticoran rants are nonsense. Honor always went out of her way to allow civilians to evacuate. And it seems that no one thought that going after orbital platforms was wrong. Note also that even with the Geneva Accords there were huge civilian bombing casualties and industrial damage. Intentional destruction, something tricky to prove, is forbidden.

Waving a gun at someone is not really a war crime. Come on, let's be grownups here. Yes, Gandhi had a more or less peaceful revolt but that was with the Brits. Had he tried that with the Japanese he and his followers would have been simply slaughtered.

As for rooting for Manticore, essentially they've been cast in the good-guy role. They were attacked by Haven (and their king assassinated by Haven even earlier). The Sollies went out of their way to push a war on them. Note that until UH ALL of the battles were around Manticoran planets.

And remember Burke: all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.


There was a rather intersting short story about a different end to WW II and Germany ended up taking and holding India (not going to even start on how that wasn't going to happen as Japan would have been there first) but in the end Gandi and Nerue survive the war and try the same tactics on the Germans that they used sucessfuly on the British. The result....well, bloodbath and excution about sums it it. What will work with one set of people/politics and culture quite often doesn't work with another. So, with a non-British Empire (like Nazi Germany) as the rulers of India the results of a non-violent civil disobedience campanin are.....shall we say "sub-optimal".
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:54 pm

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Harry Turtledive, “The Last Article”

Back when Harry wrote good stuff.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:04 am

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GloriousRuse wrote:In three basic responses here: I am generally talking about the main line books, as those tend to be the ones most responsible for defining the universe (beyond the malign introduction)...though I’d consider any off-shoot of sufficient severity.

Yea, I agree. Main line. Main vine.

The Malign was first introduced in other than a main line novel? I'm not doubting the accuracy of your reporting, just that it's news to me. Which means I appreciate the news coverage.


GloriousRuse wrote:1) The “Setbacks” have no actual consequence, they merely create the mask of one.

I hesitate to think that statement is fair. I would be willing to believe that the author could have told the story from the vantage point of all of the actual setbacks. Or he could still choose to incorporate these facts in flashbacks in a much later book - a sort of Inside the War With Haven - Behind the Scenes. But I think it may have detracted from the magic ingredient of the storytelling of space opera. Or certainly RFC's magic formula. IOW, it might would have slowed the pace too much of storyline, DW style. We all know the setbacks were there. I always imagined the Manties running around like headless chickens trying to manage - not unlike BuPers trying to wrestle up warm bodies to put in cold ships without being able to grow them on a malignant assembly line.

GloriousRuse wrote:A) Eliazabeth is on the throne. And the incoming government and change of monarch caused transition problems, a shake out of the court based on the re-aligning favor, her inexperience showing through in the operation of her duties, and public and foreign confidence in the new leader required time and effort...which president was it that said it really takes a year before you even know where the bathrooms in the whitehouse are?

But, no, not actually. None of that happened. Instead, we get a perfect continuation of government from a character who is virtually a carbon copy of her predecessor. And then an extraordinarily successful round of foreign affairs that she helps spearhead. Not really a setback is it?

How can we be certain none of that happened? I can imagine that King Roger's approval rate was through the roof. I can imagine that he suffered much less friction from any Opposition ir miscreant appendage of the government than Beth. Which leads me to believe that had the Queen enjoyed the same loyalty from her government as King Roger, the war effort would have gone quite differently. Perhaps she wouldn't ever have had to suffer that incompetent High Ridge. The way I see it, had Beth had King Roger's popularity numbers along with the technical savvy of the navy jumpstarted by her father, the war would have gone much more favorably in Manticore's favor. It had always been more for the Honor of the King than the Queen. Not only did members of the Peep government think a woman was weaker. Beth endured that from some of her own patrons.

GloriousRuse wrote:B) Oyster bay. Yes, the numbers are large, and much writing goes into decrying just how awful it is. Funnily enough, the SEM doesn’t suffer in the slightest. There is no drop in combat readiness. The economy tools along just fine. The entire industrial base is transferred to a foreign power seamlessly. Literally in the same book that we are being told Buccaneer has effectively knocked neutral systems back decades, centuries, we’re hearing “don’t worry, our recovery estimates say six months”...and we’re still magically rich too!”.

No actual setback occurred.

Unfair again, I think. There was a drop in combat readiness in terms of accumulated momentum. Had it not been for OB, Haven would have been subject to the familiar tick-tock sound similar to the device found on Terekov's wrist. OB also severely hampered the Manty's defensive posture. Not to mention the ever annoying waka waka sound of DEFCON 3 eating up sprockets, sockets, widgets and nodes. Buccaneer knocking back neutral systems decades is much different than a non neutral system with the attention of current tech. Unless Eighth Fleet is destroyed, the RMN can only be knocked back so much until the missiles run dry.

GloriousRuse wrote:C) One Nike left. And the RMN has steamrolled everyone anyhow. And maintained enough light units to patrol their new empire. And even their older heavy cruisers are sufficient to drive the next competing powers missile hit rate down to under 3% while they can drive a packet of missiles wherever they please. Oh, and despite the largest naval losses in history at 1st manticore, and oyster bay, the RMN is still pumping units out to the point where a few squadrons of Nikes represent a marginal loss of combat power. Besides writing how tragic it is, I fail to see the issue?

Oyster Bay didn't happen soon enough to be a death blow. Manty tech is a force multiplier. Force multiplication covered their arses in many areas and made up for a lot.

GloriousRuse wrote:D) Treecats. The vaunted treecat genocide ends with the SEM getting free nano-tech identifying telepath bodyguards for everyone. This is a setback?

Admittedly, the horrendous loss of Treecat life was probably more of a Treecat setback, though having less Treecats available for bonding is an immeasurable setback in itself. One of my friends once said of OB that the MA had pulled a Japanese by awakening sleeping Treecat giants, thus pulling them into the war.

GloriousRuse wrote:E) Tricked into going to war...which has left them as the reigning super-power in the Universe. And has yet to have a consequenced effect of any scale beyond “I’m killing some people so we can feel righteous”. Practically zero tactical losses. OB has effectively been ignored. Lacoon cutting both ways because the SL was the manties biggest potential trade market? Of course not!

It left them as the reigning super power because they were tricked into war with the second reigning super power. The only other entity that could have been left reigning supreme after the dust settled was the Andermani. The SL didn't immediately count since they were fighting with axes and pitchforks. And the gap between Manty tech and the rest of the galaxy's hasn't been bridged. The RMN had suffered numerous setbacks but never a knockout blow. OB destroyed infrastructure, but left the defenses intact. No other navy was in a position to capitalize on those losses. Even the Malign couldn't capitalize on its successful attack because the industrious capacity and the tech base of Manty ingenuity worked faster and gave the Ma and Haven more headaches than man gave God with the Tower of Babel.

GloriousRuse wrote:It all adds up to the equivalent of writing “and then Rocky got punched in the face really hard, so hard that the evil scientists said it was many Newton’s more than anyone had ever been punched, but he was Rocky so his noble chin did not so much as waver, his eye did not black, and he was filled by the cold steely vengeance of the morally upstanding after briefly thinking of Adrienne. He then knocked his opponent senseless with one jab”

Had it NOT been for OB, High Ridge and Bolthole, the entire galaxy would have been wiped clean by now.


GloriousRuse wrote:2) Of Reaping and Sowing - TO BE CONTINUED


At any rate, I understand that you think the author made it much too easy. Though I maintain there was a tightrope he walked with - small star system, big problems.

But.

Besides the mistakes you think the author made. What did Manticore do to deserve you switching allegiance faster than Pavel Young could flip his end and moon the navy?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:08 am

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I'm not sure when this was originally posted, but:
ldwechsler wrote:Much of the anti-Manticoran rants are nonsense. Honor always went out of her way to allow civilians to evacuate. And it seems that no one thought that going after orbital platforms was wrong. Note also that even with the Geneva Accords there were huge civilian bombing casualties and industrial damage. Intentional destruction, something tricky to prove, is forbidden.


The Geneva Conventions were a response to the mass bombing campaigns and other atrocities of WW2. They were signed in 1949.

The Geneva Accords were about getting the French out of Indochina and so doesn't really seem to be what you were talking about.

As for rooting for Manticore, essentially they've been cast in the good-guy role. They were attacked by Haven (and their king assassinated by Haven even earlier). The Sollies went out of their way to push a war on them. Note that until UH ALL of the battles were around Manticoran planets.


The biggest battles, perhaps, but certainly not all of them. Gold Peak taking the planets of Meyer sector, for example, or liberating the ships' crews from Saltash.

In most cases, though, the Sollies were smart enough not to make a fight of it at all.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:44 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:I'm not sure when this was originally posted, but:
ldwechsler wrote:Much of the anti-Manticoran rants are nonsense. Honor always went out of her way to allow civilians to evacuate. And it seems that no one thought that going after orbital platforms was wrong. Note also that even with the Geneva Accords there were huge civilian bombing casualties and industrial damage. Intentional destruction, something tricky to prove, is forbidden.


The Geneva Conventions were a response to the mass bombing campaigns and other atrocities of WW2. They were signed in 1949.

The Geneva Accords were about getting the French out of Indochina and so doesn't really seem to be what you were talking about.

As for rooting for Manticore, essentially they've been cast in the good-guy role. They were attacked by Haven (and their king assassinated by Haven even earlier). The Sollies went out of their way to push a war on them. Note that until UH ALL of the battles were around Manticoran planets.


The biggest battles, perhaps, but certainly not all of them. Gold Peak taking the planets of Meyer sector, for example, or liberating the ships' crews from Saltash.

In most cases, though, the Sollies were smart enough not to make a fight of it at all.

Let's assume that he meant "convention" instead of "accord". The 1949 Geneva Convention amended the earlier agreements to include bombing of civilians. So there was a Geneva Convention in place during WWII, but it did not address "terror" bombing.

Normally we would count actions against Byng and Crandall as big, many more ships involved than at Saltash.

Orbital infrastructure is fair game in the Honorverse, as long as direct civilian deaths are minimized. Haven wrecked the orbitals at Basilisk and Honor returned the favor in Cutworm (did I remember that codename correctly?).
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by cthia   » Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:59 am

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Galactic Sapper wrote:I'm not sure when this was originally posted, but:
ldwechsler wrote:Much of the anti-Manticoran rants are nonsense. Honor always went out of her way to allow civilians to evacuate. And it seems that no one thought that going after orbital platforms was wrong. Note also that even with the Geneva Accords there were huge civilian bombing casualties and industrial damage. Intentional destruction, something tricky to prove, is forbidden.


The Geneva Conventions were a response to the mass bombing campaigns and other atrocities of WW2. They were signed in 1949.

The Geneva Accords were about getting the French out of Indochina and so doesn't really seem to be what you were talking about.

As for rooting for Manticore, essentially they've been cast in the good-guy role. They were attacked by Haven (and their king assassinated by Haven even earlier). The Sollies went out of their way to push a war on them. Note that until UH ALL of the battles were around Manticoran planets.


The biggest battles, perhaps, but certainly not all of them. Gold Peak taking the planets of Meyer sector, for example, or liberating the ships' crews from Saltash.

In most cases, though, the Sollies were smart enough not to make a fight of it at all.

tlb wrote:Let's assume that he meant "convention" instead of "accord". The 1949 Geneva Convention amended the earlier agreements to include bombing of civilians. So there was a Geneva Convention in place during WWII, but it did not address "terror" bombing.

Normally we would count actions against Byng and Crandall as big, many more ships involved than at Saltash.

Orbital infrastructure is fair game in the Honorverse, as long as direct civilian deaths are minimized. Haven wrecked the orbitals at Basilisk and Honor returned the favor in Cutworm (did I remember that codename correctly?).

FYI, the Geneva Accords are an ongoing proposition taking on different meanings in different eras. The Geneva Accords of 1954 are different from those of 1988. Then there is a Geneva Accord, non plural.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:09 am

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cthia wrote:At any rate, I understand that you think the author made it much too easy. Though I maintain there was a tightrope he walked with - small star system, big problems.

The tightrope any author walks is getting the protagonists to win in a realistic manner. Part of the realism is ensuring that winning is manageable, but involves real struggle. The complaint here is that at least after Oyster Bay everything was too easy (as though there was a limit on the number of mainline books to follow). Decades long war with large neighbor? A quick alliance results when weary opponents discover that a hidden adversary has been manipulating events. Total manufacturing infrastructure smashed? It can be quickly replaced with the help of Beowulf and the technicians returned by Haven. Hidden adversary foments new war with largest navy in the galactic neighborhood? Turns out the large navy is so backward, that fighting them is like a major league hitter playing T-ball.

At the risk of boring repetition, Malign should have better prepared the SLN for the task it was being set up to face; after all the plan was to have them lose, but after causing major damage to the other side. This might have required at least one more mainline book to get right.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:15 am

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tlb wrote:Let's assume that he meant "convention" instead of "accord". The 1949 Geneva Convention amended the earlier agreements to include bombing of civilians. So there was a Geneva Convention in place during WWII, but it did not address "terror" bombing.

Normally we would count actions against Byng and Crandall as big, many more ships involved than at Saltash.

Orbital infrastructure is fair game in the Honorverse, as long as direct civilian deaths are minimized. Haven wrecked the orbitals at Basilisk and Honor returned the favor in Cutworm (did I remember that codename correctly?).

cthia wrote:FYI, the Geneva Accords are an ongoing proposition taking on different meanings in different eras. The Geneva Accords of 1954 are different from those of 1988. Then there is a Geneva Accord, non plural.

All true, but it is the Geneva Convention that governs the actions of the belligerents in wartime.
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by ldwechsler   » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:12 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:Let's assume that he meant "convention" instead of "accord". The 1949 Geneva Convention amended the earlier agreements to include bombing of civilians. So there was a Geneva Convention in place during WWII, but it did not address "terror" bombing.

Normally we would count actions against Byng and Crandall as big, many more ships involved than at Saltash.

Orbital infrastructure is fair game in the Honorverse, as long as direct civilian deaths are minimized. Haven wrecked the orbitals at Basilisk and Honor returned the favor in Cutworm (did I remember that codename correctly?).

cthia wrote:FYI, the Geneva Accords are an ongoing proposition taking on different meanings in different eras. The Geneva Accords of 1954 are different from those of 1988. Then there is a Geneva Accord, non plural.

All true, but it is the Geneva Convention that governs the actions of the belligerents in wartime.


When you come down to it, there are major issues with the Geneva Convention. ISIS, for example, is not a follower nor are a lot of other groups. Syria drops chemical weapons on its own people.

That was also a problem in the Honorverse. Some groups followed the Deneb Accords and others did not. There were major violations for a long time from Haven and MAlign never played by the rules.

Quibbling here and there just means you're against Manticore. But since Haven and some others are allied with it and the League has made its peace with it, the only ones left you're rooting for are MAlign and some pirates.

Didn't your mothers tell you to hang out with a good crowd?
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Re: Has anyone else decided to root against Manticore?
Post by kzt   » Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:10 am

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The implied solution to people not following the conventions is that those who did would shoot them out of hand. But we don’t do that anymore and find ourselves being over run by people who ignore them.
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