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-   -   Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same ship? (http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=200437)

USS Einstein January 15 2013 03:33 PM

Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same ship?
 
Someone in another thread suggested that they are just the same vessel, or perhaps minor variants - they always existed side-by-side.

But, the impression I have always had, was that they were seperate classes, or the K'Tinga was a refit of the D7, akin to the Constitution being a refit.

TOS:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...remastered.jpg

TAS:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ng_phasers.jpg

TMP:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...rd_torpedo.jpg

ENT:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...Unexpected.jpg

C.E. Evans January 15 2013 03:45 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
Quote:

USS Einstein wrote: (Post 7538350)
...the impression I have always had, was that they were seperate classes, or the K'Tinga was a refit of the D7, akin to the Constitution being a refit.

Generally, I think most look at it that way.

Whereas the Klingons gave the refit of the D7 a new designation, Starfleet opted not to do that for the upgrade of the Constitution-class. The naming of ship classes can be as arbitrary or politically motivated as the naming of individual vessels in that regard, IMO.

USS Einstein January 15 2013 03:47 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
I guess there is no on-screen evidence to support our belief however.

For all we know 'D7' was a Starfleet designation, and 'KTinga' was the Klingon name for the same ship.

Also, the term Battlecruiser and Warbird now seem to be interchangeable for Klingon ships.

C.E. Evans January 15 2013 04:01 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
Quote:

USS Einstein wrote: (Post 7538407)
I guess there is no on-screen evidence to support our belief however.

For all we know 'D7' was a Starfleet designation, and 'KTinga' was the Klingon name for the same ship.

To be fair, the names for most vessel designs come from offscreen material.
Quote:

Also, the term Battlecruiser and Warbird now seem to be interchangeable for Klingon ships.
Probably not too unlike how the terms heavy cruiser and starship may be interchangeable for some Federation ships.

The D7/K'tinga design does have a somewhat bird-like appearance, but if we go with the idea that the Klingons and the Romulans once were allies and shared & swapped stuff during TOS, the term "warbird" may have originated with the Klingons anyway.

USS Einstein January 15 2013 04:23 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
Yeah, it seems more likely to be a Klingon term, now that we have seen Warbird used in ENT and nuTrek.

SchwEnt January 15 2013 05:08 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
Personally, I believe the K't'inga was an upgraded version of the earlier D-7, similar to the Constitution refit seen in TMP. You know, the Klingons wanting to maintain tech parity with Star Fleet. BTW, I've seen the D-7 also called Klolode. Maybe it's a matter of the earlier ship being a D-7 Klolode and the refit being D-7 K't'inga?

Just to mess things up, I'll also throw out the idea of the ship being just like the Klingons themselves in TMP.

In other words, we know what TOS Klingons looked like and TMP showed us new Klingons and GR wanted us to think, yeah, this is what Klingons looked like all along.

Maybe it was the same with their ship. Sure we saw the Klingon warship in TOS and then a new one in TMP. Maybe it was the same thing with, yeah this is what the ship always looked like, never mind the differences.

MacLeod January 15 2013 05:30 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
Perhap's, there was a Chancellor called K'Tinga, who decided to have a class of ships named after him.

The Wormhole January 15 2013 05:30 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
They are supposed to be seperate classes, the primary difference being the K't'inga has an aft torpedo launcher and the D-7 does not. There's also differences in size and surface details. Presumably the D-7 is an older ship to account for why there's none of them in the 24th century but still plenty of K't'ingas, even during the Dominion War.

Apparentally, even the shows have got this mixed up. The Klingon ship iin Voyager's Prophecy was stated to be a D-7 in dialogue even though it is clearly a K't'inga. Likewise, one would think they meant to use a D-7 in Enterprise's Unexpected, even though they used a K't'inga. Presumably this is because a CG mesh of the K't'inga exists and since that's practically identical to the D-7 they figured who the hell would care? In fact, Unexpected was supposed to be a new Klingon design, but they didn't have time to make a new CG mesh so they just used the K't'inga since it had a retro look to it.

King Daniel Into Darkness January 15 2013 05:40 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
IMO they're different designations for what's meant to be the same ship. In real life, they just made a model with more detail.

Voyager explicitly called a K'tinga-class ship a D7 in "Prophecy". The undetailed D7 was given the same patterning as the K'tinga in "Trials and Tribble-ations" and TOS-Remastered's new CG.

Saying they're different classes is like insisting Saavik underwent extensive plastic surgery between STII and III to explain away her recasting.

King Daniel Into Darkness January 15 2013 05:41 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
Are there two USS Excelsiors then, to explain the differences between STVI and "Flashback"? One class with glowing nacelles and a thinner secondary hull?

USS Einstein January 15 2013 06:02 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
But even the people responsible for the appearance of the ship in VOY and ENT were upset about it.

The Wormhole January 15 2013 06:07 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
Quote:

King Daniel wrote: (Post 7538920)
Are there two USS Excelsiors then, to explain the differences between STVI and "Flashback"? One class with glowing nacelles and a thinner secondary hull?

No because Flashback can be explained away as Tuvok misremembering things. Hell, he thought Lt. Valtane died for fuck's sake.

USS Einstein January 15 2013 06:12 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
Quote:

The Wormhole wrote: (Post 7538875)
They are supposed to be seperate classes, the primary difference being the K't'inga has an aft torpedo launcher and the D-7 does not. There's also differences in size and surface details. Presumably the D-7 is an older ship to account for why there's none of them in the 24th century but still plenty of K't'ingas, even during the Dominion War.

Alternatively, in the real life militaries of the world, there have been cases where older ships/planes continued in service even after newer ones had been retired.

So, the D7 could have been a 23rd century version of the 22nd century K'Tinga, that was phased out in favour of the baseline model.

Convoluted really - but it is possible.

I wish they had just used the D4 model in ENT 'Unexpected' - it took tons of labour to create - the design was good looking - it was done for free in overtime - and the producers just told them "it has too few windows" and put the K'Tinga in (wtf?)

USS Einstein January 15 2013 06:42 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
Another alternative is to explain the differences away with tons of variants:

- D7-A (22nd Century Battlecruiser, Silver Hull)

- D7-B (23rd Century Battlecruiser, Grey Hull)

- D7-C (23rd Century Battlecruiser, Greenish Grey Hull)

- D7-D (23rd Century Battlecruiser, Blackish Silver Hull)

- D7-E (24th Century Battlecruiser, Silver Hull)

D7 Production Variant A (22nd Century):

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...Unexpected.jpg

D7 Production Variant B (23rd Century):

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...2C_profile.jpg

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__...remastered.jpg

D7 Production Variant C (23rd Century):

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...S_Gr%27oth.jpg

D7 Production Variant D (23rd to 24th Century):

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...ridge_dome.jpg

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...S_Amar_aft.jpg

D7 Production Variant E (23rd to 24th Century):

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...Kronos_One.jpg

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...attack_ds9.jpg

Forbin January 15 2013 06:44 PM

Re: Is the Klingon D7 Class and K'Tinga Class Battlecruiser the same s
 
I really hate that the Enterprise writers were too stupid to remember that "warbird" referred to one specific Romulan vessel in TNG, and now we're stuck with it as a Klingon reference.


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