I need some expert help with a complex search term

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This post has 54 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 959
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 7:28 AM

MJ. Smith:
I certainly hope not as I have often linked to site that contain the requested information but which I believe to be promoting heresies. Sending someone to a library isn't proselytizing - it's informing, educating,.and decreasing the amount of misinformation/disinformation believed in the world.

I have always followed the links you suggest MJ, and have found them very useful. What I was referring is a personal link to personal opinions, bias, etc.

I have never seen you offer one as such. Still, I would be pretty sure if you offered one to your personal beliefs and tradition, I know it would be very informative, and not proselytizing.

And that is much of what I am trying to convey here, there is a difference between mentioning angles for further study, and actually trying to convince persons to join one's tradition, denomination, etc.

Posts 1470
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 9:22 AM

Hamilton Ramos:

I would love to read about your thoughts about capitalism, communism, and other ways, because I am sure I would learn a lot, and many angles not obvious to me now would open.

Respectfully, you continue to miss the point that your initial post is outside of the scope of what the contents of this thread should contain, both from a FL policy perspective and a practical perspective. If I see a thread entitled, "Help with a Complex Search," I'd like to be able to open that thread and learn from others, especially the MVPs, tips and tricks for complex searching. I'd like to see multiple replies from others with creative ways to structure searches, since that a most challenging function in Logos. The LAST thing I want to see is a 1000 word essay on domestic or international economic theory. So your reply is actually a hindrance to others as we seek information on an important topic. It does nothing but muddy the waters of what would have otherwise been a clear stream of search wisdom. It's sad that you cannot see that.

And the OP wanted help searing his library, not suggestions on new resources to purchase.

So, again, respectfully, you missed the mark at least twice. So why not just say, "Hey folks, my apologies," and move on. Is it that hard to admit that you made a wrong turn in Albuquerque?

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College

Posts 619
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 9:37 AM

Myke Harbuck:
Respectfully, you continue to miss the point that your initial post is outside of the scope of what the contents of this thread should contain, both from a FL policy perspective and a practical perspective.

Myke, I realize we'll agree to disagree. But Bob has couched the 'forum' as a large coffeetable ... discussing, respecting, etc.

And through the years, any lengthy thread has rarely stayed within an OP's initial query. Is it confusing, of course. Wastes time, of course. Frustrates, certainly. But oddly, as around a coffeetable, folks keep viewing/listening. For whatever reason, value is delivered.

In Ramos' case, the 'violation' is not taking hints. Followed up by other Logosians responding to not taking hints. And so on.

Posts 1470
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 9:58 AM

DMB:

Myke Harbuck:
Respectfully, you continue to miss the point that your initial post is outside of the scope of what the contents of this thread should contain, both from a FL policy perspective and a practical perspective.

Myke, I realize we'll agree to disagree. But Bob has couched the 'forum' as a large coffeetable ... discussing, respecting, etc.

And through the years, any lengthy thread has rarely stayed within an OP's initial query. Is it confusing, of course. Wastes time, of course. Frustrates, certainly. But oddly, as around a coffeetable, folks keep viewing/listening. For whatever reason, value is delivered.

In Ramos' case, the 'violation' is not taking hints. Followed up by other Logosians responding to not taking hints. And so on.

Yes

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College

Posts 5561
Forum MVP
Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 12:53 PM

Hamilton Ramos:

Mike Binks:
You can not. So do not.

See Mike this is what is confusing to me. FL sometimes goes into topic of the month in their blog, then gives some pointers of what is involved, then list many good resources that follow up on that.

There are so many topics, that I would think FL cannot be detailing in their blog all of them, so I wonder how a similar process for persons that want certain information on certain topic can identify key concepts and get a list of resources that can be helpful.

Which part of my reply did you find confusing?

You do point out that Faithlife deals with some things in a blog. I seem to remember suggesting that route to you.

tootle pip

Mike

How to get logs and post them. (now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs)

Posts 42
IHSA | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 1:10 PM

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your gracious apology and explanation. Some people are so focused on themselves that they can't see anything wrong with eating food off of someone else's table. They think they are entitled to the privilege of pushing themselves to the forefront. I have found that with those type of people, the only solution is to deprive them of the attention they so desperately crave. Sad that someone craves attention so much that they need to get it in a digital forum. 

My grandfather used to tell me that if you engaged with those types of people, it is like wrestling with a pig. You end up smelling like a pig and the pig has a good time.

Anyway, I am done with this thread. I am so very grateful to everyone who replied to my query in a meaningful and helpful manner. May the Lord bless you for your kindness and helpful efforts.

Posts 959
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 6:38 PM

Yes Myke I understand the problem, and that is why I asked how can key issues be identified per topic so one could do searching on their own without having to ask right away.

My understanding is that there are 3 areas respect knowledge:

There is explicit knowledge, than one can harness to do searches

there is tacit knowledge, that may lay under immediate conscious thought that may need reflection to bring it up.

There is ignored knowledge that may be an important part in the learning process (why sometimes reflection paper seem difficult, they want to push past our common envelopes).

I would imagine that with all the creativity and knowledge there would be a system to allow to be able to use all 3 to explore one's library.

Repeatedly I asked what a tool could be used to uncover and make readily available those key issues that may be ignored and that may be what the professor wants in a reflection / research assignment.

The poster that came with the best alternative was KS4J, who clearly showed that key words are useful to explore particular subjects.

I just wish that a tool was developed to be able to relate topics to keywords (which FL has a huge controlled vocabulary list that could be used for research).

I know this is off topic, but if a tool that allowed to explore using keywords per area would facilitate much research and would make users more independent in their search.

Now if the originator from the beginning had told me that my input was not welcomed, and that is was not useful, I would have deleted my post immediately, and would have not participated anymore.

In other threads advanced users (like MJ), has provided suggested workflows using keyword in L9 that successfully accomplished the task without going into a 1000 word listing.

Posts 33777
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 23 2021 7:44 PM

Hamilton Ramos:
Now if the originator from the beginning had told me that my input was not welcomed, and that is was not useful, I would have deleted my post immediately, and would have not participated anymore.

That puts an unfair burden on the OP - especially those who are relatively new to the forums. But this post seems to indicate that you have not listened to what users, including the OP, have said. One cannot provide useful answers until one has listened to what was asked.

To be blunt:

  • I don't care about your understanding of areas of knowledge UNLESS you relate it to specific tools and techniques within Logos. It is one of several ontologies of knowledge/ epistemological frameworks et. al. that can be applied - choosing the correct one for the particular situation
  • I don't care that you think KS4J's answer is best. I care that the OP FOUND IT USEFUL. The best search depends upon one's personal vocabulary, the size of one's library, the data you are looking for. Only the OP has that information.
  • Do you know why large research universities have trouble matching professors of similar interests across disciplines ... they've been trying for at least 50 years with little success? Keywords are specific to theories and disciplines. The vocabulary of the linguist is not the vocabulary of the literature prof is not the vocabulary of the cultural anthropologist is not the vocabulary of the model maker or the system theorist or the ... I don't care about your dreams of what might someday be possible when it is not rooted in WHAT IS POSSIBLE IN TERMS OF NEAR FUTURE LOGOS IMPLEMENTATIONS. Yes, I am very interested in helping FL push the boundaries and fill in the gaps but only within the realm of the possible. 

Yes, I would love to have a forum in which to consider the application to Bible software of:

  • Structures and categories for the representation of meaning by Timothy C. Potts
  • The Geometry of Meaning: Semantics based on Conceptual Spaces by Peter Gardenfors
  • Logic, Language, and Meaning Volume 2: Intensional Logic and Logical Grammar by L.T.F. Gamut

but until Faithlife planners expressly ask for input on a specific tool they are considering, it does not relate to LOGOS and does not belong here. The only way I can make it belong is when I see a specific format for the visualization of meaning that I know is feasible within the Logos technology and I request it in the suggestions forums.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 959
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2021 6:46 AM

Yes MJ, I spilled the beans.

I try now to be a passive observer in the Forums, but at times such important topics come up, that I get excited and would like to have it explored from all different angles to get a better grasp.

I realize that what I think can be important, may not be so from other posters's point of view.

It is wrong to try to participate and not have expertise to really help the person originating the post.

My apologies to IHSA again, I just want for him to know I did not mean bad. I can relate to the frustration of trying to tackle a hard task. I thought I could offer some help but did not, and on the contrary made things harder for him. Sorry about that, and I hope you can tackle your assignment without further problems.

MJ. Smith:
Do you know why large research universities have trouble matching professors of similar interests across disciplines ... they've been trying for at least 50 years with little success? Keywords are specific to theories and disciplines. The vocabulary of the linguist is not the vocabulary of the literature prof is not the vocabulary of the cultural anthropologist is not the vocabulary of the model maker or the system theorist or the ... I don't care about your dreams of what might someday be possible when it is not rooted in WHAT IS POSSIBLE IN TERMS OF NEAR FUTURE LOGOS IMPLEMENTATIONS. Yes, I am very interested in helping FL push the boundaries and fill in the gaps but only within the realm of the possible. 

Excellent clarification, I do appreciate FL hard effort into providing top of the line tools for studies, and am also grateful for top of the line posters that offer help in such good faith.

To me Logos software, Forums,  FL groups and the like are top notch. Just be assured that I mean no ill about such great platform nor the persons participating in the Forums.

Peace and grace.

Posts 33777
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2021 10:15 AM

Hamilton Ramos:
I try now to be a passive observer in the Forums

Hamilton, as others have said you have the potential to be a very helpful member of the forums. I think everyone understands that you are trying to be helpful. May I suggest that rather than being passive, you make small steps in being more useful now by giving yourself a few parameters. For example, for a start you could answer questions that you can answer in 4 sentences or less, one of which must mention Logos capabilities? Then watch the subsequent posts to see how useful people found your answer.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 959
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2021 4:45 PM

IHSA: 

Remember I am not an expert.

I looked up the widow giving her all to the Temple in a Timothy Keller quick collection (used the cited by tool in Luke 21:1-4), and found the following:

It is hard to read so the excerpt is:

What Is the Right Way to Work for God?

At the beginning of this book, I told you that I’ve had a constant struggle figuring out what God wanted from me in light of the needs of the world. The question ringing in my mind, constantly, was: Am I doing enough for God?

The gospel teaches us that our approval by God is not based on doing “enough” for Him. Some might conclude, then, that we have no obligations to the world. The gospel isn’t about work, after all; it’s about resting in God’s work on your behalf.

It’s clear though, that Jesus expects His followers to be fervently at work in His kingdom. And if we love people like He’s loved us, than we cannot sit idly by while people perish.

But how much is enough? And is it possible to take on too much responsibility? Is enjoying any luxury here on earth a failure to really embrace the sacrificial call of the cross?

In short, I’m asking this: What does a gospel-centered approach to the brokenness of the world look like?

 Greear, J. D., & Keller, T. (2011). Gospel: recovering the power that made christianity revolutionary. Nashville, TN: B&H Books.

 

Then I found some proximity search info in a quick Timothy Keller collection:

Not in the book that you are doing the reflection about, but gives a glimpse of what Timothy Keller's idea of the topic centers around.

In a general search (Basic), there are a lot of hits that deal with the topic.

An interesting one talks about the reward associated with risk for entrepreneurs, but then mentions that there are occupations within the system that carry a high risk, and are not rewarded accordingly within those possible entrepreneurial enterprises:

The above is my two cents, that hope is helpful to you. I understand that your library probably looks very different from mine, so not sure if the above can be of help.

Posts 959
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2021 4:47 PM

Got you MJ, hope what I posted helps IHSA.

Posts 959
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 24 2021 4:54 PM

IHSA:

In the book you are doing your reflection about, there is a particular case mentioned in which a person part of a company decided that a good biz they were doing in reality did not actually contributed socially to a good cause, or improved some particular condition (more or less), so the person decided to not take the bonus, and used the opportunity to explain what principles had been taken into consideration to reject the bonus.

I would think the explanation given to the co-workers was sort of spreading the seed, maybe in another time and place someone else would water the seed, and who knows, maybe God could use the process to help a person get closer to Him.

What is interesting about the case is that profit maximization was taken as an opportunity to do God's work, even if at a seeming expense from the normal life point of view.

Just a thought.

Posts 959
Hamilton Ramos | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2021 5:27 AM

IHSA

Going up a notch in the search strategies for your project, you may consider also using Louw Nida numbers to identify relevant passages, and then use the cited by tool to look in T. Keller collection:

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.). New York: United Bible Societies.

Another possibility is to try and use L9's Discourse Analysis tools. Once key verses identified with profit IAW Louw NIda you can then use Bible Discourse Analysis to see larger chunks of meaning and try to see if key concepts identified there can be searched for in T. Keller's book that you have to reflect about.

Unfortunately the book does not seem to be available in Logos format, so getting it in other electronic format will allow you to do an Inline search for the analysis.

Hope this helps. 

Posts 33777
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 25 2021 3:41 PM

IHSA withdrew from this thread 3 days ago.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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