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[–]Mister_DK 13 points14 points  (2 children)

Wow, people really aren't thinking this through. No, there is no way that the White Council holds its own. For one, the books are explicitly clear on that - it is a constant fear of various factions of being found out, because mortals with their technology and numbers will kill them.

More to the point, there really is no way for the White Council comes out alive. Let's look at their options here

1) Run. Flee to the Nevernever, and the parts of the globe that won't work with the US in its new crusade. (And as the past 30 years have shown, that's about no where). They lose the mortal assets that are keeping their heads above water with the other supernatural powers, and someone there destroys them.

2) Continue to try and operate while avoiding conflict. This is the model drug cartels have been applying. Except unlike the cartels the wizards don't have a product to move to rebuild after their assets get seized. When their bank accounts get frozen, their agents leaned on, their gun buys intercepted, their medical supplies impounded, their people grabbed by TSA and Interpol, they don't have a way to recoup the loss. Sure, in a fight it is a wizard against a bunch of police, and the wizard may win (or may not, as we've seen), but they are fighting a war of attrition that will again lead to another supernatural power destroying them.

3) Shadow war. Congratulations, now instead of the FBI and police, you are facing drone strikes and special forces kill teams. Hexing missiles and shield spells aren't as useful as people here think, because that drone is beyond visual range and the hellfire it shot at you is coming in faster that the speed of sound.

4) Strike back hard. Pull sats from orbit, hex wall street, break into a nuclear storage facility from the nevernever and waltz out with some backpack bombs. Congratulations. You have the complete and undivided attention of everyone now. You also signed your own death warrant. Everyone is on your ass now, and you destroyed your source of nifty mortal technologies like "antibiotics" and "guns". The wizards can hit, and they can hit hard. The problem is that the mortals can hit harder, faster, more often, and sustain this way longer. Also, this will directly piss off supernatural factions with ties to earth, meaning they are coming for revenge rather than because they sense weakness.

5) Refuge with a patron power. You are just up against the US, go somewhere else that the US won't strike, and offer them enough of value that they will defy the US on this. There are a few options there - mainly go to China or Russia and offer to work for their intelligence service. The problem here is that a) those are about the only options for who to go to. Pakistan has nukes and we still collected Bin Laden's head. b) It is reasonable to expect that said intelligence service will clamp down controls so hard to make sure this doesn't go sideways that the white council is still effectively destroyed by losing all autonomy.

There is no situation here that ends with the White Council comes out on top. They can very well win every battle, and they will still lose the war. When Gregori Cristos can no longer afford his tailored italian suits, how long until he sells out the Council for a nice villa with a large wine cellar? How many kids do you think Listens to Wind will watch die from lack of medical supplies for treatment before he sues for peace? How long will the wardens fight when they know there is no money to pay their bills? How long do you think it will take Binder to realize he can get himself a great position in the supernatural world as this war's version of Curveball? How long until Marcone becomes the new Lucky Luciano and sides with the government against the wizards for freedom to operate, money, and power?

Charles Stross examined this in his Merchant Princes series btw. Excellent read.

[–]Teerlys 3 points4 points  (0 children)

4) Strike back hard. Pull sats from orbit, hex wall street, break into a nuclear storage facility from the nevernever and waltz out with some backpack bombs. Congratulations. You have the complete and undivided attention of everyone now. You also signed your own death warrant. Everyone is on your ass now, and you destroyed your source of nifty mortal technologies like "antibiotics" and "guns". The wizards can hit, and they can hit hard. The problem is that the mortals can hit harder, faster, more often, and sustain this way longer. Also, this will directly piss off supernatural factions with ties to earth, meaning they are coming for revenge rather than because they sense weakness.

I think you're overestimating the ability of society to recover. It doesn't take much to incite a first world nation destroying panic. Stop food deliveries into major cities for a week and that city would be ramping toward chaos. Stop it for two and there would be no way for mortals to control their own population, much less fight a shadow war with wizards. It'd happen even faster and harder if delivery of clean abundant water was terminated. Do that nation wide and there wouldn't be much more than pockets of government left with extremely limited areas of control.

Most communication forms would go offline with an emp, food shortages and sanitation conditions would likely kill over half the population. With the world in chaos and no way for anyone to communicate effectively or distribute goods to organize it, most of the people who would have been boots on the ground would be moving back to see to their own families. This could all be done quickly and irrevocably, meaning that going back may well be impossible.

I doubt the white council would go that route, as it's essentially as bad or worse an apocalypse as anything those they've stopped would have instigated, but if they did there wouldn't be much of a war as everyone they'd be fighting would mostly be looking after their own. If anything, I'd think they might use it as a bargaining chip to sue for peace before they did it.

[–]AManAlone -1 points0 points  (0 children)

IIRC, didn't the Blackstaff pull a satellite from orbit down onto a village? That's artillery. While I don't think they'd win(mainly because it takes so much longer for them to replace losses) they would be able to do enough damage to the US to make it a pyrrhic victory at best.

[–]TopRamen713 21 points22 points  (6 children)

(Answer contains minor spoilers through Changes, I believe)

Yes, I think so. Dresden, in terms of raw power, is in the 1% of Wizards, and at the point of Turn Coat, he can toss around cars. That's nothing to sniff at, but I don't think he could toss around a tank. And, of course, he can be taken out by a well-aimed sniper rifle. So, if it's a matter of head to head combat, 99% of wizards are pretty damn vulnerable. Harry carries a gun for a reason.

That's not even counting the fact the wizards of the White Council are bound by the Laws of Magic. They can't kill humans, except in self defense. Even then, they are loathe to do so because of the consequences to their soul and free will.

So your major obstacles are the Blackstaff and non-killing magics. The Blackstaff is a formidable opponent, but he isn't indiscriminate. He wouldn't just take out Washington, DC, for example, except under some very specific circumstances. And he can't be everywhere.

Non-killing magics like illusions could cause some issues for those not in the know. For those in the know, there are ways around them- infrared goggles (well, until you were close enough to be hexed.) Most of all, training and knowledge. Think of what Murphey's people can take on, even as "mere" mortals. They don't even have the full support of the US government, they are just an underfunded and ridiculed department of the Chicago police. Finally, remember the line about Army boots taking out Mantis-girl.

Magic will get you very far, but mortals are numerous and tricky. There's a reason they are considered the "nukes" of the magical world.

Tl;Dr- I agree with you.

[–]Quothefool 6 points7 points  (2 children)

I think the Council could easily take the mortals.

Hexxing. Cowl, Hexxed down the entire city Chicago by himself and maybe with Kumori's help, in Dead Beat. He's a strong wizard, but I think 6-10 regular wizards of the Council, or 1-4 members of the Senior Council could pull the same thing off if they had time to prepare. A very large portion of mortal power comes from their technology. Image the modern day military attempting to operate without their tech. It would be a nightmare.

I don't know if this is allowed in your scenario, but there's also people like binder. one Binder can pretty much summon a personal army. So in terms of numbers your average summoner is going to help even the odds.

There's also knowledge to consider. It's well within the Council's abilities to find out what the US military and governement are capable of and what their strategies might be. The U.S., even with their own wizards, would have less of an idea of what the Council was capable of with magic.

....my break is over, and I have to get back to work now ._. I really need a cool job like Harry's

[–]MrWigggles 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The novel described that as almost a unique ability.

[–]AManAlone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think so; he might have hexed the city but a gun is a very simple machine.

Most of the military is trained to operate without their technology, though NVG and infrared drones are useful; they're not necessary for a squad of Marines to lay down cover fire and mortar a position.

[–]Teerlys 2 points3 points  (2 children)

A pretty good assessment. I think if there was a war of that type it wouldn't be wizards vs mortals, it's be wizards vs the magically inclined people the government had recruited who were breaking wizarding laws. Wizards would probably be driven underground pretty hardcore, and maybe even out of the more technologically oriented countries as means were developed to spot magically inclined individuals.

A couple of additions:

  • The not killing mortals law isn't set in stone. If mortals launched an extermination the white council could lift certain laws for their own people. I believe the effects on the individual were when using certain dark magics (like mind manipulation). Killing a mortal using the same fire they'd use to roast a vamp wouldn't effect them more than shooting them with a gun if I am recalling correctly.
  • If it did come down to an extermination war of humanity vs wizardry, the wizards would win that pretty easily if they were willing to go far enough. Move actual nukes, or at least nuke materials, through the ways to get them into the country. Set nuke off at a high altitude causing an emp that would fry most electronics over a massive swath of land. Do enough of that to cover most of the civilized world and the humans would be too busy trying to slow the ridiculous amount of death and chaos that would follow and impose some sort of order on the world. No one directly killed, no one killed by magic at all, war won in an afternoon in a way that humans would not be able to prevent. Side point: Shutting down means of transportation and communication that the vampires were using (like planes) would actually help them in the war vs the Red Court.

[–]LemurianLemurLad 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Of course your EMP plan has a major flaw - what wizard worthy of the name could possibly stand next to a nuke long enough to set it up? If they were going to EMP things, it'd probably be through a mortal ally intermediary.

[–]Teerlys 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A non-white council level wizard could manage it. Or, as you said, a non-magical ally. First world countries have plenty of enemies among mortals that would have the capability of assisting and the desire to do so.

[–]MrWigggles 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Its an issue of stamina. The wizards are capable of great feats, for couple dozen hours at most.Then they become exhausted and would die.

A modern military, can just break them through sheer stamina.

Then there multitude of unorthodox strategies they can use. Attack at dawn, wash them all down with fire hoses.

[–]Rhamni 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Here's the thing. In an all out war between the US and the White Council, both sides would find it a lot easier to attack than to defend. The wizards would be able to destroy just about anything they chose to attack. Bunker under a mountain? Destroy all electronics, melt through doors, hex weapons. Shields that deflect all bullets and gas attacks. Escape when necessary through gates to the Nevernever. Assassinate leaders using similar gates. Or the black staff could bring down meteors like he did with Ortega.

On the other hand... the US has nukes. And millions of soldiers. And defence contractors who would be all too happy to find new uses for magical items the government could collect. And as impressive as the wards around the Edinburgh are likely to be, they are not going to stand up to nukes. Plus they could just open up the gold reserves and bribe supernatural assassins. If things get really really bad (or corrupt), replace the death penalty with ritual sacrifice to bribe nasties into killing wizards or giving the US magical weapons and defences. Our best soldiers have no innate magical talent? A few prisoners a piece gifted to demons or other nasties should fix that right quick.

So the answer is that neither side could be confident of victory, and losses would be much, much worse than during the war with the red court.

So what I see happening... Is the US keeping it incredibly secret, and every cell being set up to look like a rogue lab, agent or agency, with full deniability. So the White Council would try very hard to shut down what they could, but both sides would pretend that the US itself was not actively doing Forbidden Research, because, well, the alternative is Edinburgh being nuked and the blackstaff bringing down meteors, and both sides know it.

But, while a war would be horrible for both sides, there would be a lot more left of the US than of the White Council.

[–]thesasquatch1 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I agree with you on the point that in open warfare the US army could wipe the floor with the council, just on sheer numbers and not just the depleted council of the turn coat era, the council at most consists of maybe a thousand wizards maybe a generous number would be five thousand full fledged wizards of those perhaps a hundred to two hundred are combat trained warriors ie. Wardens.(I mean seriously a place as massive and as populated as the US has what 10 or 15 wardens total?) Now compare that to the US military industrial machine, which has somewhere north of a quarter of a million actual troops and more then a million if you include rear echelon troops like clerks and such if I'm remembering those numbers correctly. It wouldn't even be a fight no matter how many you hex or fire ball you don't have a chance it'd be like a single antlion taking on a dozen fire ant colonies at once. Now that's not to say that the council couldn't make the government back off or quit if it came down to it. I mean send the blackstaff to talk to the president late at night when he's getting out of the shower or taking a nap or something and the fights over, he's gonna rip his mind apart and rearrange it to something more compliant with the councils goals.

TL/DR: open war council has zero chance Covert war: USA has zero chance

Edited for spelling cause I'm on my phone.

[–]failurerate 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Dark Molly alone could take the US govt. by cloaking to the commander in chief and mind controlling him.

[–]PhantomLimbs 1 point2 points  (4 children)

I suppose I have a few questions about your argument. Is it just the White Council vs. the US? Can each side recruit people to help them? If so, White Council hands down. How is the US recruiting these wizards and how are they training them? Does that mean that the US does have people who can use magic?

My initial thought is that by using passages through the Nevernever and their innate ability to hex electrical things (the majority of the firepower the US could bring up against them), that it would be very difficult to find the White Council, much less eradicate them.

It's been brought up that Dresden has sweet raw magical talent, but he also can't hold a candle to Ebenezer or Langtry or anyone else who is on the Senior Council. I think they probably just have too many tricks in their bag and too many ways to hide and guerrilla war, that the US would have a hard time to deal with them. You could hit somewhere pretty hard, hit the Nevernever, and end up on the other side of the US before the armed forces or anyone even knew you were gone.

[–]Berg426[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I would think the US government could purchase the cooperation of advisors such as Gard, find artifacts and books about magic, employ the services of the White Court, find and recruit their own magical talent and even interrogate and force the cooperation of some wizards.

There's many wizards who the US can find that know exactly how to get into Edinburgh and many aren't exactly the type to stand up to "enhanced interrogation techniques."

And I understand what you mean about the big swingers in the council but the White Council at this point is embroiled in a war with the Red Court and probably aren't 100% capable of fighting two foes at once. So it would be interesting to see what becomes of it.

[–]mbrodge 2 points3 points  (1 child)

For the record, hex all you want but a hellfire dropping out of the sky at rocket speed I is going to be pretty damned hard to stop. Dresden himself doesn't always know what a hex is going to do. You might render the missile inert (in which case here come two more!) OR you might just detonate it...which gives you a fraction of a second to toss a shield up to stop the frag/shrapnel AND prepare yourself for the next several missiles...and maybe think about what you're going to do when that Mortal Quick Reaction Force gets on scene and starts throwing lead...boy I sure do hope this QRF doesn't have one of those pet necromancers we've been getting reports of lately. This could get ugly.

[–]stitchy1503 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it's a lot more likely that if the wizards saw the missle coming to hex it, they would retreat into the nevernever instead. The war itself would not be fought in the open, veils would likely be used to get into bases and hex them to hell.

[–]PhantomLimbs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah. In your original question, you said the "mortal forces" of the US, which I took to just be the US without any help. It would potentially be a different story if they could buy allies, or if those allies wanted to help. They may buy allies of some sort, but then maybe Monoc and the other "good" guys decide that maybe that's not the best idea to let the US do that and hop in with the White Council.

[–]modrosso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

We've seen something similar with the damage to the Black Court Vampires by mortals (via some clues from Bram Stoker.) Sheer numbers count for a lot.

[–]Naagloshii 1 point2 points  (0 children)

White Council could just transform into key political and military figures using illusion magic and fuck over the US from the inside.

[–]Apairoftits 1 point2 points  (22 children)

No. Between the malfunctioning of the military's weapons because of magic, the sheer numbers and expertise of the council, and other factors, the US would simply not have the resources or experience to combat effectively.

Edit: by other factors, I mean such things as nevernever transportation like others have mentioned, as well as the fact rhat to turn all military might against the council would mean exiting all other wars. Whi h WOULD be necessary to have a chance.

[–]WestenM 5 points6 points  (7 children)

The US has the ability to turn any of the White Council's fortresses into ash. How can a wizard fight a bomber flying thousands of feet in the air, at supersonic speeds? How can they fight millions of armed men with firearms, artillery, tanks, and plenty of other weapons? The US has the ability to turn any fortress of the White Council into broken glass and piles of ash. They can assassinate member of the White Council with long range sniper rifles or air strikes, watch them from above with Satellites, and freeze monetary assets of known wizards. Sure wizards can use the Nevernever, but once the mortals find out about it, so will they, and they have the numbers to effectively block passage through many of the ways. I don't think that the White Council could win a straight up military conflict with most mortal nations, let alone America. Look at how much damage Murphy and Marcone are able to do to the Supernatural. How can a few thousand wizards, with only a few hundred Wardens, hope to defeat a nation of 320 million?

[–]Apairoftits -1 points0 points  (6 children)

·at least some of the council's fortresses are deep underground like Edinburgh, meaning that bombers are slightly nullified even with bunker busters.

·most of the military's weaponry and mobility relies heavily on technology, which means that at mid range wizards would have the advantage of not having their weapons not blow up, misfire, or potentially be reflected back. Close range would depend on what training the wizards got in hand to hand fighting, but it would make sense that they had been trained for it, given the war with the red court. As I stated earlier, the snipers and other long range fighters would be the few with the ability to fight effectively.

·using satellites to find them would be mostly ineffective given that they have trouble finding mortals with them. Now add the ability to hide themselves from sight, and it becomes nearly impossible to find them. Thermal imaging won't work because they would radiate the same heat signatures as mortals. Oh, and the blackstaff could just take them all out of orbit for orbital strikes against their creators.

·as Anastasia has pointed out, not all wizards are American, so why would they have money there, and, given that it's a little odd for accounts to be open for 10+ decades for one person, go by their real names? asset seizure would not be nearly as effective as you might think.

·you assume that the military will have the ability to be everywhere. The nevernever is not simply a place that can be found. To enter, someone with magical ability has to open an entrance, at a point where the real world coincides with the nevernever, with no prior knowledge of the dangers that await them. As the mortals would be intruding on fae ground, both winter and summer would attack them, whereas the white council has already secured treaty through their pathways.

·murphy has experience through harry's fights, and marcone has that AND his coworkers like gard. Without that, the military faces an unknown enemy with unknown abilities. Refer to harry's comment about that when he and Murphy prepare to fight at the aquarium.

What it all boils down to is fighting experience. The white council has operated for centuries, as far back as rome. The US is just over 200 years.the americans could put up a decent fight, but the council would win.

[–]WestenM 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Mid range? An M16 can kill someone from 400 yards, well out of most wizards ability to cause effective damage. There's a reason that Harry carries firearms, and its that they are very efficient killers. Hell, he was even killed by one. Wizards won't be able to hold a shield for long against concentrated fire from from heavy machine guns, rifles, and other weapons, and any location they are in will be very vulnerable to artillery fire. And, if they are underground, then they are well and truly fucked once the US starts pumping nerve agents into their cave system. Remember how many people died when the Red Court tried that? No White Council stronghold on the entire planet would be safe from modern weaponry.

Sure, the Nevernever might be Fae territory, but it isn't Earth and there would be no repercussions in the human world for turning it into a blackened hellhole with Nuclear weaponry. If the Fae intervene, the US could deploy multi megaton warheads and not give a shit, and could leverage that against them to keep them out of the war. And the US is very, very good at acquiring intelligence. They will, in time have enough information to fight the war properly because they outnumber the council ~10,000 to 1 and can afford to lose soldiers while the council can not.

And not all Wizards are American, but the US has extremely close ties with Europe, which is where the majority of their strongholds are. Britain, France, etc would have no problem aiding the US in nullifying any known monetary assets.

Sure, the Senior Council could be a threat, but none of the other members have enough power to compete with an organization millions strong, insanely well funded, and possessing far superior weaponry. It doesn't matter how old their organization is because the old rules of warfare no longer apply. Without air support, naval forces, or numbers the Council is severely outmatched. The best the council could do is fight a Guerrilla War and sue for peace.

[–]Apairoftits -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

·the 400 yards is simply the optimum in the best case scenario(I.e. open unobstructed plains) which most sane wizards would avoid because they know that their best work is in closer quarters. This would predict either forest or urban combat, both of which the US has had less than perfect records with (see Vietnam and recent wars) and with urban, now the US has to worry aboit civilian casualties. And as for the whole gunfight vs shields thing, remember that the preferred weapons of the vampires of both red and white courts was a high caliber weapon, typically with a fast fire rate like the uzi, and a hacking or slashing weapon like the kukri. For examples, see lara's dual uzis and swords for close combat as well as thomas' desert eagle/kukri combo. Y'know the red court that the council has been fighting to a stalemate for years, on and off.

·Didnt one of the books state that the Edinburgh hq was blocked off from the surface, which was why they had to use the nevernever to enter and the gatekeepers to watch over?

·Nevernever. First they would need a way to access it. Not impossible but would take time. Second, no guarantee the explosives would work there, seeing as butcher has never given us reason to believe either way. He has stated that it doesn't follow the same logic as the real world 100% of the time, and dresden hasn't used a gun there iirc, so that may explain it. Or that since it is a place with a very high magical concentration equipment with lots of tech would simply malfunction.

·the US may have allies overseas but that doesn't necessarily mean that they would or even could help out. The UN might intervene and refuse their pleas for assistance. Should the Europeans decide to help in either case, then those countries would have to share information on detecting wizards, something that governments try to avoid.

The council wouldn't need naval superiority to capture the president, jcos, generals, and other important commanders. I mean, think how easy it was for dresden to find the red court shipping facility with only the knowledge of the ways and an address. Not only find, but scout out, formulate a plan for, and execute said plan without a hitch. With so large a force, the weak point lies in a small number of leaders (comparatively speaking). Take out the coc, and the military boils down to outdated protocols for the truly loyal and prestige seeking by the less loyal/greedier soldiers.

·you say that age doesn't matter here because the times have changed. Why not? The best predators are the ones who have learned to adapt, and the council jas had a long experience with that.

·also, as a side note, the paranet would have to play an important part in this, and they would probably side with the council more often than not, seeing as the US isn't the most welcoming to people being different. Just ask the homosexuals, the hippies, the blacks, and really most minorities that have existed in the US' history.

I guess, though that we will just have to agree to disagree, seeing as we can't seem to find much else to do so upon.

[–]robotom 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I think you might be forgetting the dudes in black suits who hushed up the video of Murphy killing the Loup Garou. It would not shock me if Monoc was a Defence Contractor. If the Government was serious -- they would have supernatural resources/allies very very quickly.

A very large pre-emptive strike by the WC might do the job - Take out the major military bases (esp those like Area 51) and chains of command. EMP the major financial/tech centres (What would mortals do without google). If the Wizards struck hard enough early enough (and were content breaking some of the laws) then they might stand a chance. If the mortals decided to take on the WC -- mortals could pull it off.

[–]Apairoftits 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Fair points. My only disagreement lies with Monoc cooperating with the US as that might affect Monoc's neutrality.

[–]robotom 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Sorry - I was trying to imply that Monoc is already on the US Govt. Payroll -- not just that they would sign up when the war starts. (Although of course that fact would imply something to a theoretical war with the WC given Odin's foresight. But if we disregard that (or assume such a war could never happen) -- I'd be pretty confident that some of Ms Gard's compatriots are in A51 or somewhere similar )

[–]Apairoftits 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could be. I think that this whole affair could go either way, depending on what circumstances arise. I just believe that, if this came up on a deadliest warrior episode, council would claim the majority of wins

[–]Dahktor_P 2 points3 points  (13 children)

This is a good point, most of the military's heavy duty firepower would be rendered useless. With the amount of computing done by guided missiles and aircraft, a simple hex could take down them in seconds.

[–]Berg426[S] 5 points6 points  (12 children)

If I'm remembering correctly they have to know where the threat is coming from in order to hex it. Most modern military weapons can kill without a person even knowing they're coming.

[–]Dahktor_P 0 points1 point  (2 children)

True. But as a counter-point, magic.

[–]Berg426[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Fucking magic, how does that work?

[–]TheDecline28 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think a lot like magnets...

[–]Apairoftits -1 points0 points  (8 children)

Not necessarily. Harry has proven several times, in action and anecdote, that simply being in the presence can wreck tech. That's without malicious intent. Now picture what would happen if if the intent was there.

The sniper teams would be the few able to fight for extended periods, and even then there's no guarantee that they would work. Remember, this is a centuries-old organization at work.

Also, if my previous post had such a good point, why was I downvoted?

[–]Berg426[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children)

I'm just thinking about the time Harry was out on Lake Michigan and they were being attacked by Jetskies. He had to focus a Hex on one of the jetskies to get it to break down. When he did focus, it broke down quite easily but he did have to focus. When Lara Raith brought in her helicopter it didn't go down just by being in the vicinity of Dresden. The whole hex concept is a little spotty throughout the books.

And I'm not sure why you're being downvoted but I can atleast say, I'm not the one doing it.

[–]Apairoftits 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Jetskis- water dispersal of magic

Helicopter- my best guess is a combination of no malicious intent to it + distance as the book said that Lara and Co. just jumped from a great height (one where people would use the rappelling cords).

It's not so much spotty as it is just not fully fleshed out, but I agree.

[–]Torvaun 2 points3 points  (1 child)

10 feet is a height where most people would use rappelling cords to leave an aircraft.

[–]zebano 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What most people do, doesn't exactly apply to Laura Raith

[–]whisperingsage 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Harry rode in a helicopter with Marcone in Death Masks. Granted, that was earlier on and he wasn't quite as powerful as he gets in later books.

[–]Apairoftits 1 point2 points  (2 children)

That last bit may be it, but as another responder mentioned, this is just not fully fleshed out. He also manned a motorboat in Small Favor, so there's that as well.

[–]whisperingsage 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Something that does keep being mentioned is emotion, though. I suppose if he's able to direct built up emotion towards an enemy it wouldn't kill tech as much as if he has undirected built up emotion.

[–]Apairoftits 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There might be correlation between his energy levels and tech breakdown. As I have not been able to find a copy of Death Masks anywhere nearby, I haven't read it, and the following is speculation, but in most of the situations where the tech is left unscathed, he is either tired or his magic is being grounded by something (usually water). Perhaps that is why he doesn't cause Chicago to relive the stone ages.

[–]DocDerry 0 points1 point  (6 children)

What are the victory conditions for either side?

[–]Berg426[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

White Council: Stop the Mortals from playing with corrupting magic by enforcing the laws of magic.

US Government: Be able to research all aspects of magic without the hinderance of some strange alliance of a "White Council."

[–]DocDerry 1 point2 points  (4 children)

Neither goal is attainable. So both would lose. The white council can't keep groups from dabbling in magic and obeying the laws now. The US Government can't keep a secret to save its life.

[–]Berg426[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

You'd be surprised what the government can keep secret.

[–]DocDerry 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I would be surprised. They've consistently shown me that large groups of people are unable to keep secrets very long.

[–]corporate-stooge 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Maybe not "secret"... But they are very good at keeping it out of the mainstream media or convincing many that things like torture or other unconstitutional behavior aren't that big of a deal.

[–]DocDerry 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I attribute that to the general apathy of our citizens.

[–]fasda 0 points1 point  (0 children)

well it depends on the size of the US opperation. Is it a small research project funded by one department or is it a massive full scale production with the full backing of the Pentagon, The Agency and Congress? Is it something a few dozen people like Agent Tilly or Murphy who are in the know or something truly massive? Is it a general knowledge thing or is it already on weapons applications?

If the operation is small or just under way they would probably listen to what the white council says because they'll want to avoid the sanity warping effects of black magic. Also they probably deal their way into getting combat lessons from wardens.

If they already do know what they are doing, they probably already know where the wizards live. Wardens use telephones and we know what the NSA can do. The war would get pretty bloody since the laws of magic don't really apply to death curses. The Capitol big and the White House would probably be very large craters.

[–]AManAlone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Depends on the venue. Meaning; in open battle? Covert warfare?

Open battle they'll lose. It'll take a lot; but it can be done. It's difficult to target jets that you can't actually see moving fast enough that by the time you know they're there; they're actually gone.

Covert however; they would be able to take out any Spec-Ops team ever trained. Provided of course, they don't have a picture of their targets, otherwise it'd be really really close.

[–]HateEgo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Comment Removed by me. No Comment for you.

[–]snakespm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

During the Turn Coat era? I would definitely but my money on the mortals.

Part of the problem is the whole, "Can't kill using magic" law. Do you start to get corrupted if you accidentally kill people with magic? What if you take out a city's power grid? Do you get corrupted for everyone who was on life support at the local hospital?

Even if it is just intentional killings, they would have to fight using guns/swords to attack. They would have defense on their side, assuming that they all use shields like Harry has. However they can probably only keep those shields up for a short period of time.

Another thing you should remember is that during Turn Coat they were still were still at war with the Red Court. The US wouldn't even have to launch of physical attack, all they would have to do is label them a terrorist organization. Accounts would be frozen, and safe houses raided. They would be severely weakened at a time where they are already pretty weak.

That is just assuming that the government doesn't know about the Red Court. If they know about the Red Court, and are willing to work with them to eliminate the Council, I don't see how the council would have a chance.

[–]mirion -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're forgetting something very important.

Wizards don't like to fight straight up, face to face. And they don't have to. Harry says constantly that wizards aren't usually at their best when doing evocation -- they're at their best when they have time to prepare, do long rituals. We've seen some pretty unbelievably powerful magic happen when magic is prepared, rather than cast off the cuff.

So, my list of reasons:

  • Time travel
  • Are we really still having this discussion? So, going back to kill the mortals in the US Government who first got this to gain traction didn't work, for some reason. Moving on.
  • What's to stop the Blackstaff from taking over the minds of the president / chiefs of staff and having them order everyone to stand down?
  • What's to stop the Blackstaff from causing the President to order nuclear (or other) bombs deployed against US troops?
  • Using the NeverNever to deliver biological weapons contained by magic and/or non-electronic means. Not technically using magic to kill, just to transport a potentially deadly device.
  • Open portals from the deep, dark NeverNever into military camps and let the baddies come out.
  • Take out all of the satellites in orbit, preventing GPS / wireless communication. Feeling frisky? Crash them into military bases.

[–]mglachrome -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Please not one of those threads...

[–][deleted]  (8 children)

[deleted]

    [–]mbrodge 1 point2 points  (7 children)

    Honestly I think the Council only wins in fights they initiate. They may be able to hex, but that isn't going to help as much as you'd think. Dresden uses revolvers and lever action rifles with regularity and doesn't hesitate to employ them in battle - meaning he's not worried about the hex-effect on the weapons he regularly carries on his person. If the wizards were ambushed by a shit-load of mortals firing .44mag and .357 or .45LC et all, their hexing really isn't going to be effective. Plus OP mentioned the mortals are recruiting magical personnel and conducting paranormal research' thus eliminating or at least minimizing the magical advantage. Remember how easily kumori/cowl were able to subvert council member's mental defenses? The council doesn't stay up with dark power, or counter measures, they just declare it illegal and move on. Imagine them facing a dark power for the first time (excepting senior council and warden vets maybe) WHILE TAKING FIRE. Dresden often reminds people how fragile wizards are in physical confrontations AND how susceptible they are to ambush.

    That being said, if the council attacked there is little to NO chance the mortals in that battle win. Which just leaves the council with another 299,999,999 mortals to cow into humility!

    [–]mahandal 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    There wouldn't be any "fights". Ebenezar would just start destroying the U.S. Navy/Airforce from a safe place. I keep thinking back to how he brought a satellite down on that vampire dude. In a straight up fight, sure, the U.S. has such a ridiculous numbers advantage that they could do some stuff. But there's no reason for there to be any fights. They could destroy the entire U.S. military without ever being in any danger.

    [–]mbrodge 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    There's a lot we don't know about the black staff, but the black veins that spread when the staff is used tend to make me think there's a balance/cost of sorts to the user that would likely prevent him from prolonged use of the power, but even if not, he would somehow have to target each and every ship and plane and submarine which I don't think would be as easy as it sounds; especially naval assets since water disperses magical energies.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]mbrodge 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Well, unless they find him...sure. OP said that the US is recruiting magic users, and that changes everything! Every member of the paranet could be strong armed by the FBS-A, Federal Bureau of Supernatural Affairs, with a little help from their buddies at the IRS, and reconditioned with a little help from their good pals at the CIA, or taken into 'protective custody' by the US Marshal Service...those with useful talents are used, those without are used as trade with some of the powerful Unseelie who are into that sort of thing. Don't worry about legality or Constitutional rights, that was 'handled' with the Magical/Arcane Terrorism-Homegrown or M.A.T.H. Act of 2015 it's all legal! We can't have these so-called "people" running around with who knows what kind of powers!

      [–]mahandal 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      If the Black Council could take out the Senior Council they would have done so a long time ago. Sure, the U.S. is going to have some wizards but how are they gonna find him? He could be hiding effectively anywhere, and they don't know what he looks like or anything. If he wanted to he could be hiding in some safe area in the Nevernever, maybe Winter has some place he could hide out.

      [–]LVDeath 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      It's not that he isn't worried about the hex effect. He simply employs weapons made ages ago with really simple technology. Give the guy a semiautomatic and it'll most probably misfire as soon as he touches it. That's why he used a six-shooter, the lever-action Winchester, and drove the Blue Beetle (which, while being really old, wasn't quite old enough).

      So hexing is going to be effective. At least until the military figure this out and raid every damn antique store for firearms. Or set up factories for it. Bombing runs on the other hand would be much more serious, unless the White Council put up a horizontal or dome-shaped ward much like Harry had on his apartment when the war with the Red Court was on. Think reactive armor on tanks, automatically resetting, possibly layered, and invisible.

      [–]mbrodge 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      That last comment is actually something about the Dresden-verse that bothers me a little from time to time. The VW and the M2 .50cal were introduced around the same time. I just don't think an internal combustion engine, clutch, steering assembly, drive shaft, wheel bearings, etc are really more simplistic than cloth-belt-fed large caliber automatic weapons of the exact same era. Military snipers and sharpshooters mostly use bolt action rifles which actually came before lever action rifles like the Henry (albeit in a breech loading style vice a detachable or internal magazine style). Not to mention that Gatling guns are still made by hand (by hobbyists mostly) and they're from about the Civil War time frame. Also, the military wouldn't exactly have to raid antique stores to get highly effective weapons from the WWII era (like the Thompson sub-machine gun that the gruff brothers used against Harry), or even modern-manufacture lever/bolt action rifles or revolvers, not to mention 12ga pump-action or even double barreled shotguns!

      Point being, this is very hard to argue since the internal logic to what will be affected and what won't isn't actually logical.

      [–]huey9k -3 points-2 points  (5 children)

      No. Shield spells/foci, Entropy curses, the ability to pull satellites from orbit, and sheer force of will mean the USAF are collectively FUCKED.

      [–]Torvaun 1 point2 points  (4 children)

      Dresden has done pretty well with his shield spell, but then there's what happened in White NightBlood Rites. Then he got himself a better shield spell, but that pulled down more power. And Dresden is both in the top 20-30 strongest wizards on the planet, and has a talent for crafting foci.

      Here's the real question. How many wizards are there? Can muggles find a way to reliably detect wizards, perhaps with incredibly delicate and complicated electronics? Do the issues wizards have with high speed communications and transportation constitute a significant drawback?

      [–]huey9k 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      Don't mix your franchises. The commingling of Potterverse and Dresdenverse makes me twitchy.

      [–]proddy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I don't like the Potterverse either, but I don't mind Muggles.

      Mundanes though, that pisses me off. Like those dumb trailers showing at the cinema now. The Human Instruments or something. I cringe every time I see it.

      [–]huey9k 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      but then there's what happened in White Night.

      You misspelled Blood Rites.

      [–]Torvaun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      You're absolutely right. White Night was book 9.
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