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Old July 18, 2007, 11:02 AM   #1
Danzig
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getting threads shut down..

The sock puppets at The Firing Line are working diligently to get threads that they don't like shut down.

They are being extremely successful. I wish the staff here would not cater to them in such a fashion.

I wish that instead of shutting down a thread..they would rid us of those who are intentionally SEEKING to get the threads shut down.
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Old July 18, 2007, 11:10 AM   #2
Doug.38PR
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What I suggest is that we (and I am speaking of myself too) quit taking the bait of those who keep sniping and picking in order to get threads shut down. You aren't going to convince them, you aren't going to shut them up, just ignore them. All they are trying to do is stir up trouble and we are obliging them. Ignore, and let the mods deal with them

my 2 cents worth.
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Old July 18, 2007, 11:17 AM   #3
madmag
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I am going to add my $.02 worth.

I am not sure of the particulars you are talking about but I too have a complaint about many threads being shutdown because they are guided to racist issues by some members. I am saying this: If someone makes overt racist comments or starts a thread that is against a large religious segment, etc., then it should be shutdown. But when the topic starts off as some other discussion and some immediately bend the thread to include racist issues then that is wrong. For example, some will tell you that they can read between the lines and know that you are a racist. Well, that kind of leaves everything up for grabs doesn't it? Now you are not directly attacking any race or religion but some will say that they know what is your heart and "they" know you are really racist. This stuff needs to stop! If Someone makes an overt racist statement then nail that person, but leave the reading between the lines and knowing what is someones heart for higher (staff, God, etc.) authority.

And one more thing. Enough of this bull of making a post and adding comments that are very racist, but in fact are not the words of the person being complained about. Things like " I bet you think Colin Powell is well spoken" aimed as a slam against you when in fact you are no one else on that thread ever even mentioned such comments. This is called race baiting!

So, we all should respect different races and religions, but lets stop making every thread a race debate by the patrolling thread race police.
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Old July 18, 2007, 11:36 AM   #4
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This has been a subject that bothers me, as well. Mostly because I live in The Peoples' Republik of Madison where people look for ways to be offended.

There are many topics and interesting periods in history where mature people would have a wonderful time debating.

The lesson I have learned is that computer forums have tens of thousands of readers world wide. I don't think you can secure an adult hot-button debate without someone jumping in with a complaint.

In some cases, the mods of forums I formerly liked not only locked the posts, but erased the entire thread. I do not see the condition getting any better.
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Old July 18, 2007, 11:44 AM   #5
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I think I'm with madmag to some extent. I've seen far too many overtly racist comments here (though they're generally dealt with swiftly by mods) and more than a little subtle racism, but lately I have seen a lot of race-baiting (and religion-baiting, etc) as well.

I'm sure a few of you think I've been guilty of this as well...but I generally avoid putting additional words in people's mouths and also try to reply to what they've said outside the idea of racism.

I think at least some of the complaining is just because some like to think of this as some sort of old (and a few young) conservatives' treehouse...which it isn't. People from all walks and with all manner of political views own and enjoy guns, so you can expect to see that reflected here.

But yes, at least some of the complaining is also perfectly valid.
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Old July 18, 2007, 11:55 AM   #6
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Sometimes mods go a little overboard I believe. I was a big time regular at a board where the complaints about mods reached a level where they were done away with. www.packing.org They instituted a self rating system that is an abysmal failure and has driven many of the regular intelligent posters (of which I humbly include myself) to other boards.

The lesson, mods will be mods. Threads will be closed. Deal with it and move on.
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Old July 18, 2007, 12:01 PM   #7
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"more than a little subtle racism"

I'm not discussing using racist epithets to insult another forum member, I'm talking about discussing history on gun related topics.

For example, (and I say this for example only), many people believe that gun control laws and statutes stem from ruling classes trying to disarm and control various ethnic groups. This topic would make a great debate.

The problem is that many people feel the very discussion of hot-button issues is tantamount to actually believing those concepts are being used or supported.

As you can see, I've had to preface my remarks with disclaimers. But even so, I'll bet there's a guy in East T-Shirt, Wyoming that just said, "I'll bet The Tourist is racist..."

The core of this problem is that people don't always read and reflect what you've actually written. They have a bug up their butts and they'll use any opening to spread their agenda. And I've seen some ridiculous connections.
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Old July 18, 2007, 12:03 PM   #8
Freedom_1st
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this is why censorship does not work (threads being closed) and why like everything else the authorities solution to the problem is often worse then the problem itself

you are correct right now we have posters who turn legit threads of poltical postions they do not agree with into bickering fest with the sole intention of getting them closed by the moderators

so in essence the posters are using the moderators to censor speech they do not like

this will only hurt this forum in the long run as it will turn people away to more free pastures
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Old July 18, 2007, 12:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
but I generally avoid putting additional words in people's mouths and also try to reply to what they've said outside the idea of racism.
Good rule.
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Old July 18, 2007, 12:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
I'm not discussing using racist epithets to insult another forum member, I'm talking about discussing history on gun related topics.
I'm not talking about either of those, I'm talking about the kinds of attitudes I've seen come out here when talking about Latinos in relation to immigration, blacks in relation to crime, or Muslims in relation to terrorism. Just because you don't use a certain word starting with N doesn't mean what you're saying can't be racist.*

Oh, and let's not start on gaybashing, which is common here (the reason discussion of gay-related issues is not allowed)...ranging from the subtle to the straight-out "homosexuals make me sick" variety. Yes, that is in quotes because it was from an actual post...and not even in a gay-related thread.

* Disclaimer: I'm using "racist" to include ethnicities/religions, only because (while I hate to betray my ignorance) I'm not entirely sure what word would include all these groups.

Quote:
this is why censorship does not work (threads being closed) and why like everything else the authorities solution to the problem is often worse then the problem itself

you are correct right now we have posters who turn legit threads of poltical postions they do not agree with into bickering fest with the sole intention of getting them closed by the moderators

so in essence the posters are using the moderators to censor speech they do not like
I've not seen too many instances recently where somebody does this with the intent of getting a thread shut down (we had a few posters here who were big on this not too long ago, and would basically tell you exactly what they were trying to do). I have seen quite a few turn into bickering-fests, though, including a few where I was at fault (or one of those at fault). Sorry guys, sometimes I'm not so good at backing down...especially if somebody says something particularly foolish then declares themselves correct. Or when somebody gets smug because they happen to be in the majority here. Or, you know, sometimes just because I'm an argumentative SOB from time to time.
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Old July 18, 2007, 12:23 PM   #11
Freedom_1st
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I've not seen too many instances recently where somebody does this with the intent of getting a thread shut down (we had a few posters here who were big on this not too long ago, and would basically tell you exactly what they were trying to do). I have seen quite a few turn into bickering-fests, though, including a few where I was at fault (or one of those at fault). Sorry guys, sometimes I'm not so good at backing down...especially if somebody says something particularly foolish then declares themselves correct. Or when somebody gets smug because they happen to be in the majority here. Or, you know, sometimes just because I'm an argumentative SOB from time to time.

I have no problem with people being argumentative, if I didnt like the atmosphere, I would just quit posting here, simple as that.

That being said, I am convinced, (and you are not one of them) that there are a few posters who incite bickering with the sole purpose of getting the thread closed down,

They are not bickering because they disagree, they are trolling with the sole purpose of getting someones feathers ruffled and getting the thread closed.
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Old July 18, 2007, 02:03 PM   #12
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There is no First Amendment here nor should there be. We do not own the forum. If you want to establish your own rules make your own forum and run it your way.

I understand the concept of constructive criticism and have had my share of disagreements with mods at a site or two. I have also seen very good sites completely implode when the mods got too loose or went away. On the other hand I have not seen sites where mods who err on slightly the strict side go under.
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Old July 18, 2007, 02:39 PM   #13
Al Norris
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Just to add a little "spice" to this thread (as if it needs any!), I've just moved it to the Suggestion & Tech Support area.

But to answer some questions (spoken and unspoken), yes we do make mistakes. I know I do. And Yes, I do err on the side of caution... Sometimes even out of shear frustration (yup. I admit to getting frustrated, just like many of you).

I would also challenge anyone to tell me that I can't take criticism nor that I can't be argued into re-opening threads. I've done both, countless times.

I'll also stand firm if, in my opinion, it is called for.

But the single best way for things to happen (or not happen, as the case may be) is for you folks, the members of this board, to tell us what's happening. There are simply too many threads for the moderators to read and follow. The easiest way to do that is to use the "report this post" function. It's that little triangular symbol at the bottom of each persons post. You could also simply PM a specific mod and report what you think is going on.

Self policing works much better than simply hoping that a mod will cruise by and see the same things you are seeing. Often, that doesn't work... And when it does... Do you have any idea how many names I've been called? Or any of the other mods? You tend to grow a thicker skin than you had.

Enough of me, for a while...
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Old July 18, 2007, 06:58 PM   #14
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Who DOES Own This Forum?

Quote:
There is no First Amendment here nor should there be. We do not own the forum. If you want to establish your own rules make your own forum and run it your way.
I am new here but have noticed that some get away with talking about race and some do not. Perhaps we should just stay away from it because everyone is prejudiced to some extent. Different parts of the country, for instance think that "wetback" is a bad word when it is used all of the time, even in polite company in South Texas.

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Old July 18, 2007, 08:32 PM   #15
Capt. Charlie
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The Firing Line is owned by the owner and publisher of S.W.A.T. Magazine, Rich Lucibella, Hal, and as such, it's private property with no expectation of 1st Amendment rights. We expect the nature of any conversations that occur here to be that of true gentlemen and ladies, and the same behavior that you'd be expected to exhibit while seated in Rich's living room.

Quote:
I am new here but have noticed that some get away with talking about race and some do not.
Any threads that deal with race or religion in a derogatory or hateful manner are shut down as soon as we're aware of them, Hal. Depending on the degree of the offense, the authors of those posts are often removed as well.

The problem comes in when you consider the sheer numbers involved. There are over forty-eight thousand members here at TFL, and only about a dozen active moderators. Do the math. It's literally impossible to monitor each and every thread, let alone every post. That's why it's up to you, as Antipitas said, to report problem posts.

You want a superior forum? We mods do what we can, but ultimately, the ball's in your court .
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Old July 18, 2007, 08:35 PM   #16
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this is why censorship does not work (threads being closed) and why like everything else the authorities solution to the problem is often worse then the problem itself
I disagree. Censorship has its place in varying levels. This is a private site that the owner puts forth rules that are meant to be followed whether your rights are "infringed" or not. Actually, I don't see it being infringed. One can post anything he/she wants. The ones that have the vested authority (mods/owner) has the right to boot the member off or delete/edit as needed. I think for the most part this site's moderating has been well above average to say the least.
Look at it this way. This is their house. Do you think I have the right to come to yours and blurt out every foul word on the planet in front of your family and young children? There's reasonable lines to be drawn to accomodate the mass...

Quote:
But to answer some questions (spoken and unspoken), yes we do make mistakes.
Yep. It's called being a human being, Antipitas. Some people in this world don't thing you're allowed to be one, unfortunately...
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Old July 18, 2007, 08:41 PM   #17
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Juan Carlos, I'm in that few that thinks you have baited several folks with the immigration/latino topic. Don't ask for examples please. I'm not even sure of your intentions in this thread, possibly trolling again. That said, the difference between spoken words and print is, no emotion. Which in my opinion makes it easy to take things the wrong way, Now get that profile and search. And mods, compared to other boards I'm a member of, this one is very laid back.
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Old July 18, 2007, 10:26 PM   #18
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Maybe it's just the make-up of this board...I am not sure. Like most here I am a gun enthusiast first. But I take long breaks because I have asked and read so much about gun related stuff that I do the political debate for a change of pace. I do also visit some boards dedicated solely to political issues. Strange, but on these political boards it seems that talk is usually at a more civil level. Not sure of the reason. Maybe these people are more use to debating in a dispassionate way. Anyway, it appears the key is not to be too extreme in words, and not to add inference as to what you think someone means...just stay with what they actually say. When you try to imagine what is in someones heart, then there is no limit to the debate and it just obscures the original meaning of the thread.

Quote:
There's reasonable lines to be drawn to accommodate the mass...
I agree.

My last word is: no one should be allowed to make an overt attack on any race or creed, and no one should bait someone to make such an attack just to shut down threads. We should assume there is just empty space between lines, otherwise we are in for endless debates about what someone thinks we mean.
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Old July 20, 2007, 08:55 PM   #19
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THR and TFL are the best there is...bar none.

Disagree? Go elsewhere...somewhere that you can cuss people out, race-bait to your heart's content, pound our chest and call everyone out. There are plenty of sites that will allow you to let your testosterone run free.

Those places are amusing, but not informative or educational. I generally don't go there, not more than once.

I enjoy a civil debate with reason and logic, not just name calling and...ahh...member waving. Can I say that?
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Old July 30, 2007, 09:20 PM   #20
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Amen, Brother

Quote:
We should assume there is just empty space between lines, otherwise we are in for endless debates about what someone thinks we mean.
Way too much, " I know what you mean" or " It's not what you said, it is what you didn't say." If it ain't written , it ain't said, IMHO.
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Old July 30, 2007, 09:37 PM   #21
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There are Racists ! There are Homophobes ! And There are Spammers ! Rarely do they all converge into one Person (But Hey if that person does not go off the Deep end and is really a Firearms enthusiast and can keep it together enough to only get political on occasion then we are a Big Tent and can take the PC Police rattin others out as fellow posters who have a place here also !

Last edited by TheBluesMan; July 30, 2007 at 10:12 PM. Reason: Poorly disguised inappropriate comment
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Old July 30, 2007, 09:56 PM   #22
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Formerly inappropriate comment redacted by TBM
Thats cute :barf:

Does it warrant the "report button"

And thats one of the problems I have to any Modwhomanybereading...

Do we burden you with childishness like that..

Or just unload on them ourselves

Wildoractualljustpopawarningshotbecauseifididntthink4xandpostonceidbegoneAlaska

Last edited by TheBluesMan; July 30, 2007 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Edited quote of inappropriate comment
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Old July 30, 2007, 10:10 PM   #23
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Old July 30, 2007, 10:31 PM   #24
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I feel like Henry Hill when I hit the button

WildciAlaska
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Old July 30, 2007, 10:36 PM   #25
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Sock Puppets are really Muppetz ! I feel like Manny from Runaway Train !
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