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Merge policy/guideline discussion

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Revision as of 17:47, October 8, 2013 by Capricorn (Talk | contribs)

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It's been suggested that the discussion on buildings articles be a separate page, so here we are.

I don't think the appearance of a cityscape or other general image of a city is enough to get every building and street seen an article. We have decided in the past that the appearance of a map of the Earth in canon was not enough to get every location on the Earth an article. There is a difference between the Golden Gate Bridge (prominent in shots of San Fran, and mentioned a couple times, I think), the Eiffel Tower (again, prominent and representative of the city) than 101 California Street or One Maritime Plaza or 50 Fremont Center, which were never the focus of establishing shots of the city. I don't know what the exact standard should be in this matter, but that should have something to do with it.

Lastly, I think putting the architectural style of these barely seen buildings in the article is a stretch, unless it was mentioned. 31dot (talk) 12:01, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

I have been going through the references from the fourth movie. I have been adding delete tags on most buildings and other places that weren't named. The ones that I think have importance are the Transamerica Pyramid, the Coit Tower, the Golden Gate Bridge, and the San Francisco Oakland Bay Bridge. These are iconic to the Bay Area. I am looking at the other references.Throwback (talk) 12:36, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
I agree with 31dot here as well. However, if articles are now being suggested for deletion anyway, it might be best to wait for that process to go through before continuing this discussion. --Cid Highwind (talk) 12:54, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
I disagree that the pages should all be tagged with deletes now that the discussion here has begun. The discussion should carry through before the deletion option is made. -- sulfur (talk) 13:01, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
I went through the references for the fourth movie. I have put a high number up for deletion. Some of them I made myself. I included references from a bag that someone saw at the Cetacean Institute that had illustrations of California landmarks. I have seen the film on bluray and I couldn't tell you what was on that bag. Aside from Market Street and Embarcadero, I have thrown the other streets to the "refuse pile". What else have I thrown into the refuse pile? Cars, for example. The rationale, this is stuff that isn't identified in the canon or in the script. It's stuff that people know from doing research or being able to identify immediately what it is.Throwback (talk) 13:08, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
To continue my thought, rather than adding it onto every single delete article that was just created, it is not original research to identify something seen on screen. If these were buildings on "other planets", we'd be doing our best to identify them if possible. Since a couple of films have focused on San Francisco on Earth, why should those be any different? Further thought... the library computer references in "The Cage" logically fall into the same line of thought (if you want to take it to its conclusion). Are we going to go through this same discussion for all of those? If it weren't for MA:POINT, I'd go add "delete page" templates to each of those items. -- sulfur (talk) 14:03, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
I can't confirm what I have seen for I don't have screen capture technology. And, frankly, I am testing the waters. There has been a subtle change in policy, and I am throwing the widest net possible to see what is permissible and what is not permissible. References in dialog are easy to write for. Do I create two articles, one for whale hunters and one for whaling? I find that creating one article for whaling actually answers the question, what is a whale hunter? When it comes to visual references, it seems that is when things begin to fall apart. Do I include only things for whose name I can see? Or, do I include what, through research, can be identified with certainity? Someone wrote a series of articles about places that were known by symbology on a bag that an elderly woman carried in the Cetacean Institute. As I have been unable to identify these same things for the bag is barely seen, I have to wonder how accurately his articles are. As there are no visual media accompanying the articles, I can only guess at what he is seeing. And, what is the test for visual acuteness? I have a 42 inch televison, so I might be seeing things that someone with a smaller tv might not see.Throwback (talk) 14:20, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict, reply mostly to sulfur) Just to make that explicit: these articles have first been discussed in the lengthy Forum:Whale articles discussion as possible other merge candidates. My above comment does not mean that I necessarily want to see all those articles deleted (although some of them should be, in my opinion[*]) - but now that they have been put up for deletion besides also discussing their possible merging, we should not discuss in both places at once. One way would be to see which articles "survive" the deletion process and then discuss if those should be merged. Another way would be to discuss merging first, and then see if any of the remaining articles end up still being "controversial" and bring those up for deletion again. Discussing in too many places at once just adds to the already existing confusion. -- Cid Highwind (talk) 14:25, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
And you've hit the crux of my problem. It's already spread across two forums. Now it's also onto about 15-20 deletion pages. If that's not too many places, I really don't know what is. -- sulfur (talk) 14:29, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
Well, before Throwbacks last comment I was giving him the benefit of the doubt - but after that comment, it seems as if it is a case of disrupting MA to prove a point instead of a genuine attempt to get rid of articles that he himself thinks shouldn't be part of this wiki. After he also, suddenly told us, after 40KB of discussion, that the whale articles should be removed now, I guess I'll sit this one out until someone else settles the question of where and what to discuss in one way or another. For what it's worth, I just think that individual buildings that just were visible in a wide shot, and of which we don't even now a "canonical" address, shouldn't have their own articles. --Cid Highwind (talk) 16:37, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
First of, let me say I don't believe these pages should be deleted, but merged at the most. We strive for completeness so imo that's very clear. Secondly, I agree mentioning the architectural style is a big stretch. With such vague references, we should be very careful to mention only what is known. For the vast majority, not even the name is technically known, though I was basing it on our precedents for things like naming famous paintings that were seen but not mentioned. But I can see that's debatable. In any case, the key I think is to strictly limit ourselves to information that can actually be sourced from the episode, and then see if we still have enough information to justify individual articles. If not, or if we decide naming them is not justified, then they should be merged into something.
On a sidenote; I was the one who created the bag articles, based on blu-ray (which I borrowed so unfortunatly don't have right now if needed for discussion), and would really like there to be pictures but also don't know how to do that. Also note that while each article says, "seen on a bag", there were actually two people with identical bags, and not each article is sourced on the same bag. Before I've read this page (and thus unfortunate in defiance of the excellent point that the discussion would better be in one place), I've posted on why I've created them here. -- Capricorn (talk) 17:46, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

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