Lit The Essential Guide to Warfare by Jason Fry and a pseudonymous Scotsman

Discussion in 'Literature' started by whateveritis12, May 17, 2010.

  1. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    I had this discussion once with McEwok, but basically the idea that there were 5-6 "exploration cruisers" that initially escaped Dac fits with the 5-6 Home One-type Stra Cruisers we seen in that X-wing cutscence. The Rebels, by Endor, field 5-6 of them, 8 MC80a wingless cruisers, and a larger number (two or three dozen) of MC80 Liberty-type Star Cruisers. I can't see the Rebels fielding more than 50 Star Cruisers prior to Endor, given their limited resources and the fact that the Rebel Navy was largely composed of smaller ships. Plus we know Mon Cal cruisers of this era were very time consuming. I imagine that Mon Cal ships like the MC30 frigate and MC40 light cruiser were much more numerous and probably the most common Mon Cal warship types in the fleet.

    Of course, thanks to the EGTW, it is easy to see how we go from dozens to hundreds & thousands of Mon Cal cruisers by the later New Republic period. Production doubled each year, plus 5% of the entire NR budget was devoted to Mon Cal shipbuilding. The yards increased in size, output increased, various new classes (MC80B & MC90) are fielded, and they become the true backbone of the Navy.

    --Adm. Nick
    Last edited by AdmiralNick22, Sep 30, 2012
  2. Vympel Jedi Master

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    I'd say there's strong implied evidence from the films that they can. It would quite an irrelevant plot point for the Executor to lose its bridge deflector shields when even if they were still up an A-Wing would've crashed through the bridge windows anyway. Referring to "shields" as if they're all the same is a mistake anyway, there are clearly a wide variety of shield technologies in use. The shield effects of a Trade Federation Battleship in RotS (grid-like expanding blue flash) are totally different from those of an Imperial Star Destroyer in RotJ (white flash).

    EDIT:- Similarly, in TPM we see the Droid Control Ship captain is confident that nothing can get through their shields (expressing disbelief that the main reactor is losing power) - surely he would've been right, if only Anakin had not flown into the ship's hangar bay just as four Vulture droids were flying out.
    Last edited by Vympel, Sep 30, 2012
  3. Grand Admiral Paxis Jedi Knight

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    Going back to the Home One-class vessels, I'd love the Mantan Wanderer to be retconned into a Home One. I wouldn't mind if a few previously named Mon Calamari cruisers that weren't given a class designation were assigned as Home One's and MC80a's, just to expand the number of named ships in those classes.

    Although, I definitely concur with the good Admiral. A vessel called Dreadnought would be a great homage to X-Wing. :D
  4. AdmiralWesJanson Jedi Grand Master

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    The game treats them as separate ships, and the lore seems to as well.
    Home One: Command ship of the Rebel Fleet. 1200 meters long. Masterpiece of aesthetic form. most heavily armed and armored ship in the fleet. Admiral Ackbar's personal flagship
    Independence: Communications starship. Often hosts first assignment for top prospects from among newly commissioned officers.
  5. Tzizvvt78 Jedi Master

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    They describe two different roles, command ship and communications ship and separate names for each card.
    The Defiance gets a card in the same set, it acted as a fleet rearguard, with batteries hard-wired to a central targeting processor.
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Oct 1, 2012
  6. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    You're all going to have to forgive my lack of understanding of the CCG: does the fact that there are two separate "ship" cards in the same pack mean they can't (at a stretch) represent the same ship? You wouldn't, for example, find two separate cards for Executor or Fel's TIE Fighter played in the same game?

    Vympel: good points, but when you look at both Ex and Vuutun Palaa in detail, they're more complex scenarios than they seem.

    In narrative terms, the "bridge deflector" line informs the audience that the bridge has abruptly become a more vulnerable target, but what sort of target, exactly?

    Crynyd's fighter was unshielded, since it had been shot up pretty bad. It was also flying on a completely unpredictable death spiral. For a normal fighter to hit the bridge in the same way, the pilot would have to be firstly suicidal, and secondly, able to dodge the flak defenses while keeping his forward shields strong enough to overpower the deflector. And that's assuming that the bridge deflector isn't sufficiently strong over a very localized area to prevent ramming (and other forms of fighter attack). If it's a secondary shield inside the main perimiter, it may exist for exactly that sort of purpose.

    The Vuutun Palaa's shields are certainly strong enough to keep out the N-1s lasers and "popgun" torps, but that doesn't mean they could actually keep out a N-1 with double-fronted shields, either (although, for all its numerous deficiencies as a warship design, the TFBB has a large "clean" hull that may enable it to hold its shields very close and limit the ability to fly in under the shields for a totally different reason).

    Neither the script nor the novellization indicates that the ability of a N-1 to enter the hangar is anything unusual (as opposed to flying in a crazy spiral that dodges the flak to get there), and in continuity terms, the droids flying out don't indicate anything either way: in story terms they serve primarily to tell the audience that the hangar exit is accessible, not whether that accesibility is momentary or not.

    Neither example, thus far, tells us conclusively whether or not shielded starfighters can fly through the main deflector shield perimiter of a large capital ship like Executor or Vuutun Palaa. They certainly don't indicate that shields do keep out ships in that sort of scenario, and there may be other examples that make it clearer, but these aren't quite them yet.

    Am I being pedantic? Perhaps (I know that most of us would find the idea that Ex can't stop a fighter with her main shields surprising if not outright wrong-seeming, and I'm actually fairly indifferent on the answer in terms of personal preference), but I'm mostly being curious, testing this question to destruction. :D

    -- The Imperial Ewok
    Last edited by Thrawn McEwok, Oct 1, 2012
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  7. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Does Outbound Flight qualify as a large capital ship? It's shorter than the above examples- but it's six Dreadnaughts + storage core- so it's still quite large.

    Thrawn's ships flew through its shields and raked the surface of it.

    I could see the main shield being a ray shield- not very resistant to solid objects- but enough to stop massive laser fire.

    Underneath it is a particle shield- very resistant to kinetic energy, but not so good vs lasers, ion cannon, etc.

    Thus- a Star Destroyer can take a pounding from proton torpedoes- which slip through the ray shield but are blocked by the particle shield. However, a ship that's under the ray shield, blazing away with laser (like Mara's Headhunter in Dark Force Rising) could penetrate the hull surface and do damage to systems under it- despite having only starfighter-class guns.
  8. AdmiralWesJanson Jedi Grand Master

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    Well, the way the system works is that certain cards are considered unique, in that only a single copy can be on the table at a time. Some unique cards have "personas" which are different cards that represent the same character or ship, and fall under the only one on the table at a time limit. Main characters are the most common cards to have persona variants, though there are several ships that have multiple cards that represent the same ship- Millienium Falcon has 2 versions, Wedge's X-Wing has 2, Executor has 2.
    But under the Game mechanics, Home One and Independence are not the same persona, and both can be on the table at the same time, and are considered by the game to be different ships. Certain cards also refer to Home One by name, and can only target Home One, not Independence.

    That help?
  9. Pfluegermeister Jedi Grand Master

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    Thrawn McEwok: Actually, you've reminded me of a small question I had. I was always under the impression from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter and Cloak of Deception onward that the droid control ship at Naboo was the Profiteer, or Saak'ak (in Neimoidian, I'll guess); did I get confused? When did the Vuutun Palaa enter the picture? Not a quibble, but I was curious. :)
  10. Zeta1127 Jedi Master

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    I believe everyone who saw TPM thought the Saak'ak was the droid control ship.
  11. dewback_rancher Jedi Master

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    To throw more fuel on the fire about shielded vessel interactions with other shielded vessels, specifically the Executor herself (as she seems to be one of the subjects of this conversation):
    http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090222062829/starwars/images/a/a0/Griffs'sdeath.jpg
    [face_beatup]

    Now, in all seriousness, I wonder how we explain this- aside from the Marvels being at times goofy, of course. "This" being three ISDs coming out of hyperspace into the Exy's shields... and not even penetrating them.
    Last edited by dewback_rancher, Oct 1, 2012
  12. JackG Jedi Grand Master

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    Yeah, Dofine was the captain of the Profiteer and then he appeared on the bridge of the control ship which Anakin later destroys; clearly that was supposed to be the Profiteer, unless Dofine has a change of flagship, which I think is unlikely. :oops:
  13. Gorefiend Force Ghost

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    Not Marvel :) its from the classic SW newspaperstrips though you could allways go for that they did not have their own shields up or dropped from hyperspace right into the shields whilst still in semi flux. If you want something fun from Marvel we have TIE fighters able to blow through Star Destroyer shields and armor with lasers.


    The Saak'ak is not a Droid control ship. He would have had to switch command of the blockade from the Saakak to the Vuutun Palaa when the rest of the blockade was removed to go back to trading.
    Last edited by Gorefiend, Oct 1, 2012
  14. Tim Battershell Jedi Master

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    Wrong Universe, I know, but Frank Herbert's shield systems were increasingly permeable with lower velocity attacks ("repels the fast strike, admits the slow kindjal", IIRC). Perhaps SW particle shields work on the same general principle? With or without a 'bubble' effect from double-fronted starfighter shields?
  15. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Don't see how much use they'd be against space debris, some of which might not have a lot of kinetic energy (sure, the ship itself would be moving, but they'd be slower than starfighters).

    Might it just be that energy shields on the level and scale of the Death Star are powerful enough to cause ships damage unless negated by the ships' own shielding? The notion of permeable particle shields seems really dumb, especially since it would mean that planetary defense shields don't really do anything--which is completely untrue. The only other alternative is that the designers of the DS were so overconfident about the station's defensive capacity that they didn't allow for proper overlapping of the defense shields in the way that a planetary shield would function, thus the fighters can "penetrate the outer defense."
  16. Tim Battershell Jedi Master

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    It depends on how much energy one has available - making shields permeable to objects with insufficernt velocity to damage the vessel directly would tend to save energy. Making the shields deflect each and every particle that they come into contact with might lead to a tactic of dumping a few tons of fine sand in the vessel's path to cause a local overload! Planetary shields would (IMO) have a heck of a lot more energy budgeted to them than anything mobile - no need for any type of engines, or life-support/artificial gravity etc., for a start!

    Think APC (Armour Piercing - Capped) - the cap helps penetration in a number of ways, one of which is to 'lubricate' the passage of the round through the armour - double-fronted shields might have the same effect. Or the order could just have been given to guard against long-range turbolaser pot-shots!
  17. AdmiralWesJanson Jedi Grand Master

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    Well, we do have a canon example of particle shields at least creating interference zones where they merge, as per Tyrants Test.
  18. Tzizvvt78 Jedi Master

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    That was one of the images I remember from Saxton's site. Three vaporized ISDs and a damaged, but still functional Executor. We see an ISD in turn vaporize asteroids in ESB, so it's not surprising these power technologies scale up.
  19. dewback_rancher Jedi Master

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    Ah, right. My bad on that! Been a while since I've read the story in question, so my recollection was fuzzy. [face_blush]
  20. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    In the Death Star novel the reason given is that there's limited power resources- to have both the hyperdrive and the superlaser, shielding had to be "downgraded to rudimentary levels"- page 17.
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  21. Tzizvvt78 Jedi Master

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    I liked Admiral Griff, too. Must have been his custom uniform. Kind of a chilling end for a character, just vaporized like that.
  22. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Well, that works, I guess. They were probably thinking of the same thing we are.
  23. Mange Jedi Master

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    I just hope that someday someone will scale Home One properly (*cough* 2.5-3.2 km in length *cough*) and puts it in another class than the MC80.
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  24. Tzizvvt78 Jedi Master

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    Well, the Invincible is in the same class as the much smaller Invisible Hand, technically. The Home One could be a scaled-up MC80 Home One type cruiser. Maybe the Home One really was a 1,2 km Independence, while for Endor, Ackbar chose a larger weapons platform to bear the name and his flag. ;)
    Last edited by Tzizvvt78, Oct 2, 2012
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  25. AdmiralWesJanson Jedi Grand Master

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    Yeah, see my sig.
    As for numbers on the decipher cards, Executor is said to be 8,000 meters, and we know that got corrected/updated later.
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