Comments on: The Things That Make Me Weak and Strange Get Engineered Away -- story about geek monasteries for smart people who don't fit in http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html Brain candy for Happy Mutants Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:11:17 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.1 By: cheekipoo http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253697 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253697 Interesting, is there a widget like this already? I can’t find it on apple.com

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By: Jeff http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254210 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254210 Antinous, Iâ€™m a broker. I do risk assessment every day. So, what youâ€™re telling me (and thank you for taking the time to do so), is that Cory is on the ground floor of an investment strategy that he (and others)has decided is worthy. But youâ€™re also telling me that itâ€™s new and there is risk involved. Risk implies unknowns. I guess Iâ€™m always looking for Unknowns and how they will affect the market. Coryâ€™s a great, young, writer, but Iâ€™m a very good young-ish investor–Iâ€™ve made a lot of wealthy people even wealthier. I do have the ability to evaluate any business strategy as long as I have good numbers and understand the specific market applications. So maybe Iâ€™m guilty of seeing problems where none exist.

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By: RJ http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254466 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254466 Well, I was going to make a comment relevant to the post, but then I read this thread and forgot what I was going to say. I don’t suppose it much matters now, anyway.

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By: biztheclown http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253955 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253955 Let’s not feed the trolls, readers and famous authors.

Thanks to Cory for yet another wonderful bit of reading. I really enjoyed this one.

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By: TheMadCreator http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254211 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254211 Cory, I just listened to your reading of this story, and just wanted to say that I thought it was EXCELLENT. Really, you have some of the freshest, most thought provoking SF out there right now, and I always love hearing your new stuff.

Great work as always!

(Also thanks for releasing it free)

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By: coaxial http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253960 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253960 @16

or become Objectivists. :) *ducks*

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By: Roland http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254226 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254226 lvd th stry. ‘m cnfsd by th ndng thgh. Dd Lwrnc g t wrk fr th Scrtt lk Rndy, r dd h rfs t g bck t wrk fr th rdr nd mnky wth th strms? f h rfsd, h gt dspprd, rght?

thnk lt f my cnfsn cms frm th fnl tw sntncs: “H cld gt t th plc tht Cmps tk hm t nywhr. Tht ws ll tht mttrd.”

Srry t b dns.

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By: Ben Morris http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254739 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254739 Neat, I mean I am somewhat predisposed to reading Cory’s stuff anyway but in this case even more so, as one of my all time favorite novels is concerned with a different but related idea; an ‘academic monastery’. Hermann Hesse’s The Glass Bead Game being the book in question.

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By: jeffguevin http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254231 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254231 I don’t have anything to add to the excellent rebuttals of Jeff’s “points”. But I just wanted to post something so that in the future there’s some proof that I’m not _that_ Jeff.

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By: EH http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253976 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253976 We know what that is, it’s called fascism.

No, it’s called Objectivism. Fascism is “the desire to be led.”

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By: Antinous http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254234 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254234 what youâ€™re telling me, is that Cory is on the ground floor of an investment strategy that he (and others)has decided is worthy.

No, exactly the opposite. First, it’s not the ground floor because the building might fall down in two years. Your view is predicated on the notion that a strategy could last for a long time, maybe decades. This might be the only floor that ever exists for this strategy. You get on it or you don’t. And you might be called on to make that decision every year.

Second, it’s not strategy. It’s doing what seems good and right at the time. It’s applying ethical principles to business decisions. If it makes you money, that’s great. If it doesn’t make so much money, you still stuck to your principles. You’re fixated on the economics of writing rather than on the writing itself. That can’t go well.

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By: clothingoptional http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253981 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253981 @biztheclown Great comment! Nice to see I wasn’t the only one to actually READ the story. LOL!

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By: Antinous http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254238 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254238 Roland,

Please don’t put details of the ending of the story in your comments. I’ve disemvowelled your comment for that reason.

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By: Jeff http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253728 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253728 How nice, congrats on being able to give your work away. There was a time, not too long ago, when a talented author such as yourself could expect to be paid for his shorts. Isnâ€™t there a zine you can give your work too? Are you a lost lead for Tor? They want to draw people in, give them some free stuff, and promote traffic so they can use the data some how. Such as generating ad revenue. Telling us this on BoingBoing will add to that traffic, of course. Can Tor give any sales figures on their writers whose work has been given away and whose book sales numbers have increased? I might expect them to tell you that number. So, if Coryâ€™s book sales go up 15% after a free short is released, I could see doing it often enough. If this model of Giving it away for Free really works, why wouldnâ€™t every other Publisher quickly jump on the band wagon? You know like people jumped on when internet stocks were really hot and perceived value was nothing like actual value. As for Creative Commons usage: as long as you donâ€™t expect all authors to invite other people to mess with their stuff, then its fine. Allowing people to use your art as they see fit in no way invalidates the rights of those who wish to remain in control of what is theirs. In perpetuity if they so desire.

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By: mdhatter http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253984 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253984 @Jeff #3 – “How Nice”

You lost me right there.

Resenting others successes is not attractive (aside from the flies brought out by the stink)

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By: Roland http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254241 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254241 Sorry Antinous. Thanks for your help.

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By: mdhatter http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254242 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254242 @Jeff – Antinous, Iâ€™m a broker. I do risk assessment every day. So, what youâ€™re telling me (and thank you for taking the time to do so), is that Cory is on the ground floor of an investment strategy that he (and others)has decided is worthy.

That’s not what he’s telling you. That’s your vocation running over your avocation. You’re not grasping the ‘why’ Mr. Doctorow (whose fiction I’ve never once read (before I get called a fan boi)) does what he does.

I suspect that Mr D’s motives and your perception of his motives are divergent, and I’m quite certain (evidenced by your approach) that you don’t respect that difference very much. Maybe you just don’t see the difference for what it is?

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By: Lobster http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253736 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253736 I don’t claim to be one of the best and brightest but I’d be all for legal and cultural enclaves ruled by reason instead of politics and religion.

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By: Trevel http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253740 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253740 Um, Cory’s been giving his books away for free for years now.

Neil Gaiman gave a book away for free for a while, to the tune of a jump in sales.

Baen Books has been giving books away for free for some time: http://www.baen.com/library/ — they’ve found that not only does giving a book away for free online jump sales for that book, it jumps sales for ALL books by that author. This includes Lois McMaster Bujold, Larry Niven and Mercedes Lackey.

Brandon Sanderson is giving away a book as he writes it.

The numbers are on their side.

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By: ispinyarns http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253748 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253748 Thanks for the link, Trevel! And yes, if I am fond of the books I find, I probably will buy them. I am a student, thus by definition do not have much spending money for leisure books. Walk in a Barnes and Noble and look at the prices…$15-20 is a lot of money for some people, and that’s in paperback. However, if I know already that I like the book, then I will be willing to drop the money on it so I can read it wherever and whenever I like.

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By: eain http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254017 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254017 I’m amused that almost all of the discussion so far has been about the politics of copyright. ;)

Cory: Good stuff. This is the first time I’ve read your fiction. Fuckin’ chilling, though. ;)

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By: Robotech_Master http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253767 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253767 Also, Tor was giving a whole lot of its ebooks away as a free promotion for a couple of months, up until the end of July.

Anyway, it’s Cory’s choice to make.

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By: Cory Doctorow http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253769 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253769 Tor.com is one of the best-paying science fiction markets in the field.

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By: jphilby http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254545 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254545 Geek monastery. Haha! Back during the Cold War we called them “Institutes of Technology”.

In the last year “free” music by Radiohead and Prince liberated VAST amounts of cash. Not everybody can work it that way, but I appreciate people willing to prospect for new veins.

GIVE AWAYS are so refreshing in a world that has been so focussed on greed since Reagan. I feel such people to be a new breed … able to recognize that good will sells more than good PR.

”Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. Cancer has no purpose but growth; but it does have another result – the death of the host.” Ed Abbey recognized that capitalism, like all the isms, is an unsustainable street. It’s good to see the recognition spreading. We can all just get along.

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By: Cory Doctorow http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253782 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253782 Jeff, that post was so packed with straw men, ridiculous assumptions, accusatory implications factual inaccuracies and just random theorizing that it probably constitutes a bigger work of sf than mine.

Tor is a high-paying, high-prestige, high-circulation market that pays more than anyone else in the field, more or less.

Regarding whether others are “expected” to release CC — I’vewritten a bunch about why this is a good idea, but I’ve never said writers have a duty to do so, just that they’d be crazy not to.

And the comparison of CC to the dotcom bubble is just bizarre.

And “in perpetuity”? In a pig’s eye. Copyright expires. Good thing for writers that it does, or a) most of our work would vanish after a short period because no one could figure out whom to license it from (google “orphan works” — today more than 98% of works in copyright qualify) and b) because it would prohibit adaptations of public domain works, such as Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan.

Honestly, what are you thinking?

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By: Jeff http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254300 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254300 Antinous said, “Other people will try doing what Cory is doing now, but they’ll try it in ten years…”

That’s why I said ground floor. It’s pretty new. First floor if you must.

“Your view is predicated on the notion that a strategy could last for a long time, maybe decades.”

I don’t think so. I see this an emerging strategem in what might be a quickly transoforming market. Stability for ten years? That’s for bonds. Call it what you like, but stategy works for me. But seeing how publishing is using a very old model (in general), I’ll have to assume at this point that rather large portions of the industry will fight change and slow the process down. Don’t you think that’s reasonable when considering who controls the industry? And don’t we have to project loss due to theft in the formula? I could see theft of DMR-free e-books eating up all the savinging that could be realized by not using paper. There is no way to really judge this other than by looking at other segments of the market, such as music. But the comparison is of limited value at the current time.

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By: Roger Strong http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253795 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253795 A geek monastery that housees people who can’t get along in the world and puts them to work as coders…..

Sounds like the Heaven’s Gate cult.

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By: GregLondon http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253802 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253802 There was a time, not too long ago, when a talented author such as yourself could expect to be paid for his shorts.

Huh? I just submitted a short to a magazine a couple weeks ago. There seem to be paying markets still.

Isnâ€™t there a zine you can give your work too? Are you a lost lead for Tor? They want to draw people in, give them some free stuff, and promote traffic so they can use the data some how. Such as generating ad revenue. Telling us this on BoingBoing will add to that traffic, of course.

It’s like you’re just throwing spaghetti and hoping that something hits and something sticks.

Can Tor give any sales figures on their writers whose work has been given away and whose book sales numbers have increased? I might expect them to tell you that number. So, if Coryâ€™s book sales go up 15% after a free short is released, I could see doing it often enough.

When you get something published, you could try it and see for yourself.

If this model of Giving it away for Free really works, why wouldnâ€™t every other Publisher quickly jump on the band wagon?

Do you, like, worship at the alter of the invisible hand of capitalism, or what?

When the first Napster came out, they ended up offering a deal to the music industry, some chunk of money per person or per song or something, and the music industry turned it down. How many years later is it now and iTunes is doing exactly the same thing. Rhapsody charges a flat-fee per month.

But there are still artists you can’t access on certain music sites for download, and whether it’s because they’re afraid of the change, they don’t understand the medium, or what, is irrelevant. The point is that the lack of immediate industry adoption doesn’t prove it can’t make money.

You know like people jumped on when internet stocks were really hot and perceived value was nothing like actual value.

This is more spaghetti.

As for Creative Commons usage: as long as you donâ€™t expect all authors to invite other people to mess with their stuff, then its fine.

I… er… what?

Allowing people to use your art as they see fit in no way invalidates the rights of those who wish to remain in control of what is theirs.

You explaining copyright law to Cory is sort of like you explaining a quadruple bypass to a heart surgeon. Not that I don’t find it entertaining in its own way, but just letting you know.

In perpetuity if they so desire.

OK, imagine your explaing that quadruple bypass to heart surgeon, and then imagine that you briefly mention why using leeches to remove “bad blood” is a useful technique in recovery.

It’s abundantly clear that you don’t understand copyright law or creative commons or publishing.

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By: Jeff http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-254059 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-254059 I wouldnâ€™t have to set many straw men on fire if you move from the hypotheses stage of this marketing strategy to the facts portion. I realize there are a lot of writers out there that donâ€™t agree with your ideas. That wasnâ€™t too hard to discover either. In fact, I think there are probably more that disagree with you than agree. So you think itâ€™s a good idea to give a bit of writing away and hope that will get people to buy a book. That seems to have been proved in limited examples. Iâ€™m just wondering why it isnâ€™t happening faster. If itâ€™s such a great idea why arenâ€™t all publishers (at least of genre fiction) standing up and saying how great it is? Am I supposes to agree with the majority or with you? And if Iâ€™m going to agree with the “Give It Away culture of books,” I want to be able to see where thatâ€™s headed.

Youâ€™re a sf writer, C.D., so what happens when the desire to make a living comes into conflict with peopleâ€™s increased expectations that what youâ€™re providing them should be free? Not just an occasional short, but all of it? Just like people expect to get free music and free news and free medical care? How are you going to make a living book selling if the technological trends lead to wide-spread use digital book readers? What if everyone just assumes they can download a book for free? Perhaps Iâ€™m thinking too far ahead, but thatâ€™s how markets are evaluated for long term investment.

I used the example of the internet stock bubble to illustrate the idea that sometimes ideas can make money in the short term, but in the end they fail. Only time will tell.

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By: Brother Phil http://boingboing.net/2008/08/06/the-things-that-make.html#comment-253805 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 #comment-253805 Well, as a minister in good standing of the Universal Life Church, I’m entitled to found a church of my own. If Cory’s ok with it, anyone else fancy founding the order online?

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