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user351483
6:02 AM
Sent
 
user351483
"I am requesting reinstatement as a moderator of The Workplace.

As much as I disagree with the manner in which Monica was removed, and multiple resignations/strikes have pressed home that the community at large was also not happy, I still value the community that the web site serves.

As much as in good conscious I could not serve a company that did this, I cannot in good conscious let this community unmoderated.

I love this community more than I love SE. There's my conflict. But the community wins - the customer must always come first, users must always come first.
 
user351483
(quoted for disclosure)
 
user351483
6:18 AM
@JourneymanGeek I just want to thank you. A lot. You are the voice of reason, and of considered moderation in thought and deed. You are the fresh spring of clear water that brings hope to a wasteland. You have helped my thoughts over the past few days more than you can think. Thank you.
2
 
@Catija Don't chat transcripts provide a paper trail?
 
user351483
Not against a user. Not in a real sense.
 
user351483
And I do get the implications of doing this and the impression that I'm appearing to validate SE's actions. However, my pull toward serving the community comes first.
 
user194636
Some will see it that way but what can you do except state your reasons as hope everyone accepts that.
 
user194636
Others will say it makes you look a little indecisive.
 
user194636
6:30 AM
In fact there will be someone for every possible reaction.
 
12 hours ago, by Andras Deak
whether any given mod decides to stand up is their very own private business, as private as it gets, and discussing it would be in bad taste
In any case anger is aimed at the company, not mods
 
user351483
@PaulWhite There's always going to be people to interpret the worst.
 
user194636
@AndrasDeak If that's directed at me, I was responding to Snow, mod to mod.
 
user351483
But I've stated my case. All I can do is wait now.
 
@Snow Just listen to Taylor and shake it off
 
user351483
6:32 AM
@AndrasDeak How well do you know me? Where's the camera? lol
 
@PaulWhite It was directed at your point. People who don't agree with a mod's decision about staying a mod can go suck on a lemon.
@Snow uuuh what camera? I've no idea what you're talking about ;)
 
user351483
@AndrasDeak Agreed. Enough people have spoken and acted to send a very strong message.
 
user194636
@AndrasDeak I see. Thanks for clarifying.
 
user351483
@AndrasDeak The entire Taylor Swift discography is on my work playlist. It's a guilty pleasure.
 
Hehe
 
6:56 AM
I was just planning on writing a response to Sara's post. But turns out Tim can't handle negative feedback very well, or is there any other reason the post is locked? Did they really expect anything other then neutral to negative response on this nonstatement
 
@Luuklag content dispute. See the revision history
maybe comments too
I've seen some in bad taste last night
or can they lock only the Q?
 
Yeah that edit history is far from pretty. I'd suggest we give a stern warning to some of those editors. Those edits were clearly in bad taste, maybe even in bad spirit.
I could agree with the removal of "Friends", the tag updates, and the suspend -> remove change, but all others are really deserving of a stern warning or a short term supsension.
To bad they always post this stuff in the evening
Best would even be to make a special post type, like announcement or something, that can't be edited by anyone besides mods
 
Rob
If locking a post doesn't get a good response, imagine how it'd be received if users including mods were suspended for the edits
In my experience, locking posts happens when there's a lot of moderation time dedicated to the post, most of which isn't really visible.
For example, meta.stackoverflow.com/a/389908/563532 has forty four flags and 80 deleted comments
People weren't happy when I locked that, either
 
7:13 AM
Good point @Rob
on a side note, Sara did a great job at burning her reputation on MSE over the last week.
 
user194636
@AndrasDeak no, unfortunately. locking a q locks the q comments and prevents new answers
 
user194636
@Luuklag yeah the rep graph looks like a particularly scary rollercoaster
 
user194636
I've never really thought about a negative rep cap before
 
She should be in the -300 to -400 range by now ;)
 
user194636
By rights one should lose a mortarboard badge for -200 in a day
 
7:19 AM
@PaulWhite I see
 
user194636
it's daft, but there we are
 
@Luuklag not constructive
 
Yesterday I ran out of star giving, how many stars can I put a day?
 
Rob
20
 
Awesome.
 
7:29 AM
15 of which can be freely distributed between any of my brilliant contributions over the history of this chat.
 
7:51 AM
I always assumed you got more stars if you starred one of your messages?
Star one, get two for free.
 
Yes. 15 of which can be freely distributed ...
Already has mine
 
thx
 
8:10 AM
oh shit booois we made the / tech.slashdot.org/story/19/10/03/1557215/…
2
 
No dips are visible on her network profile. Caching?
 
@IanKemp let's not go down that road, please
1 message moved to Trashcan
 
you're no fun
 
That is confirmed
 
<3 rene, i'm just being a d'bag (my normal mode of operation)
just getting a bit tired of all this waiting for SE inc to actually say something constructive
 
8:19 AM
Internalize your d'bag like the rest of us pls.
 
@IanKemp You're not alone. But I still hold the position that adding unconstructiveness from our side is not helping either. So discuss as much as you want, keep it civil.
 
@rene you're right, and i apologize
 
I'm always right ...
 
RENE FOR WORLD PRESIDENT
 
user351483
I have gone over the hump of discontent, I have had my limit of it. I want now to reset and rebuild.
 
8:24 AM
Did you check if SE is also in that mood already?
 
user194636
hah
 
Rob
@rene >.>
 
Reset and rebuild is best done in sync I think.
At least, that makes it easier.
 
user351483
@rene I can at least start. I can at least help my own community. If no one does anything, nothing gets done.
 
That is also true.
 
user194636
8:27 AM
So it's Friday in the US now. I guess that means SE won't be shipping any more news.
 
Their Friday has yet to start, working wise that means.
 
Rob
I think the latest statement was the last we'll hear of it
At least... that's what we've been told publicly
 
Assuming HQ is still on normal business hours
 
user351483
What's the alternative? Sit back and add to the toxicity that's covering the entire site? Or do we consider the audience for this community and work toward serving them?
 
user194636
@Rob Well I'm expecting a clarified CoC at some stage
 
Rob
8:29 AM
Oh, right
Yeah.. I don't expect that for quite some time, personally
 
user194636
@Snow Well a significant number of people have been waiting for the CoC before deciding what to do
 
@Snow and how do we do that? not being sarcastic, genuinely interested in what ideas you have
 
@Snow serve the community is preferred and if we assume good faith I think that is what SE hopes for as well.
 
@PaulWhite In other words, there will be a third wave of exodus once the CoC changes are finalized /cyn
 
@Catija I find that highly offensive. It's colonise all the things :P
 
user194636
8:31 AM
@JohnDvorak cyn?
 
Rob
I suspect the CoC will be very underwhelming (not in a bad way). Essentially, an addendum to 'be nice to each other'. Though, granted, how it's been enforced so far, abiding by the new CoC might not really protect anyone from accusations
 
@PaulWhite cynical
 
user194636
@JohnDvorak ah thanks that's new to me. stored.
 
user351483
@IanKemp I want to start with moderating my own community.
 
user194636
@JohnDvorak Well people's decisions could go either way, and it kinda depends what they put out, but yeah
 
8:34 AM
Even if the changes to CoC will have zero practical effect (best case, perhaps), the changes due to demodgate will linger for quite a while.
 
user194636
5 hours ago, by Catija
... I'm a bit of an optimist and... this is probably going to ... uh... seem odd coming from me but... This is going to pass. We may be weaker for it... we may be stronger. If we work together, we should be stronger. If we fracture, we'll be weaker.
 
Those who remain will live under the constant fear of further changes out of the blue
3
 
user194636
Agreed. The handling of this affair has been the worst I have experienced anywhere.
 
user194636
I can only imagine how much worse it looks for people that have only seen the public SE statements.
 
Rob
Gonna be honest, most people won't care. Would you care about a scandal on say... wikipedia?
 
8:39 AM
The Register version of events seems pretty... whitewashed.
 
Rob
It's also badly written and implies the exact opposite of what happened
The editor's comments directly contradict what was said by Sarah and Monica
 
@Rob to be fair though, that's pretty common in modern newspaper business
 
Rob
That's true. Just yesterday I mentioned it was flat out wrong, though some readers didn't believe me... despite the article contradicting itself :\
 
user351483
And the vast majority of the Twitter/Register things are concentrating on the gender thing rather than the procedural issue.
 
even though nobody here really cares about the gender thing.
 
user351483
8:46 AM
Yes, there's a deep sense of caring about that.
 
user194636
@Rob The risk is that people won't care. They won't care to participate, because SE didn't care to communicate with them, care to consult on important changes, or care to respond to community questions. I don't know that neither side caring about the other is a recipe for long term success.
 
guys, why are you expecting journalistic integrity and quality from el reg
 
user194636
And yes I know that's not what you meant, but "people won't care" is a counsel of despair.
 
user194636
@IanKemp Probably because that was the primary source of official information 🙂
 
user194636
Sad to say.
 
8:53 AM
kinda says it all about SE inc's comms, doesn't it
 
user194636
It puzzles me because the consultation around Be Nice -> CoC was pretty good
 
yeah.
 
Rob
@PaulWhite I meant it in another way. I use Wikipedia a lot, but I have no attachment to it whatsoever. I don't know the moderators there, or the management. If someone was demodded there I would have no interest in the situation. I suspect it's the same for the majority that use stack exchange
A bunch of people know I was elected on stack overflow at my work. Not one has mentioned (and I'm assuming don't even know) the current or previous scandals
 
user194636
Right, but do those people contribute to SE or just use it?
 
Does anybody here happen to have a lobster.rs invite they'd trust me with?
 
Rob
8:58 AM
After all, at the end of the day, this is just a website. Sure, a website I dedicate heaps of time to and value. But still, just a website
 
My worry is that there's no real replacement for it
 
But still, a website heaps of time to and value
 
Rob
@PaulWhite Some have not-insignificant reputation (some a few hundred, some a few thousand). Compared to regulars, that's not much, but to most people, that's quite a lot.
 
user194636
Yes
 
user194636
SO etc. are great resources (with a lot of noise and a good many tricky problems to solve) but there is no fundamental reason it will always be a great resource. SE ought not take the status quo for granted, assuming they can do whatever they like and life will always be sweet.
 
user194636
9:07 AM
SE is not too big to fail. Such a process might be sudden, or it might gradually happen over a longer period of time. The trick is not to get to a tipping point before noticing.
 
user194636
Anyway, I have no answers, just musing on alternatives out loud.
 
@Rob yes it is.
 
user351483
9:39 AM
Cheetos are amazing. Why have I never had these before?
 
10:50 AM
@rene no need to ping. I'll help if I see anything
 
noted, no ping @JourneymanGeek
I'll never change ...
 
@rene I don't particularly mind. Just the risk of getting woken up
 
Never wake a sleeping dog.
 
true
 
@Aza I'll bite: yes, I think the issue she was terminated for is silly. Let me explain, and perhaps you'll have some insight into what - if anything - I'm missing.
With Caleb, I understand at least three different perspectives: a progressive one where his stance is unacceptable because it fails to affirm the gender of transmen and transwomen, who generally highly value such affirmation; a liberal one where his stance is unfortunate but should be permitted in the name of inclusivity and open discourse; and the conservative Christian one I think he holds, where calling a transwoman "she" is wrong because it rejects the gender they were assigned by God.
But I haven't yet grasped how Monica's position is problematic even from a 100% progressive perspective.
As I understand it, transmen and transwomen typically care a great deal about being correctly gendered because they strongly identify with their new gender and it is important to be recognised as being that gender. That much sense to me - but Monica has spelt out that she does in fact refer to transmen and transwomen by their preferred pronouns, and has no problem doing so.
Nonbinary people, though, are a different kettle of fish, aren't they? Isn't the whole point of being "nonbinary" not that you strongly hold a gender identity, like a transman or transwoman, but precisely the opposite: that you either don't have any strong feelings on gender (in which case you wouldn't care about this pronoun stuff at all) or have a strong aversion to being identified in a gendered way - that both genders feel wrong?
And they/them/their are nonbinary pronouns. As such, my understanding of the motivation behind going by they/them/their pronouns is not that anyone strongly identifies with them (what would that even mean? They don't correspond to any gender in the first place!), but simply that they strongly dislike being referred to in a gendered way.
And with that (maybe flawed?) understanding in mind... why is Monica's position even a problem to anybody? Calling a nonbinary person by name still avoids gendering them. That's... fine, right? It's specifically the thing that a strongly nonbinary person wants other people to do.
Why should the mechanism by which it's achieved - using a non-gender-conveying pronoun or sticking to a non-gender-conveying name - make any difference? Does a stylistic choice to favour names over nonbinary pronouns actually bother anyone at all?
You, @Aza, are of course, at no obligation to reply. But I think you are perhaps the only person involved in this entire discourse who understands the progressive perspective clearly, can communicate it, and won't just call me a transphobe or punish me for asking. (This question couldn't be asked in the Meta Room, for instance, where pronoun talk is now banned, and I assume an actual post about it would get nuked.)
 
10:56 AM
@MarkAmery Not exclusively. It's a gender-neutral pronoun, and you can use it without being non-binary, and it can be used without referring to a non-binary person.
 
@PrincessOlivia Yes, I agree I misstated that slightly. Don't think it changes the overall argument at all, though.
(Indeed, it's kinda part of the point - that "they" conveys no information about a person's gender, rather than affirming a particular gender. Which is... the same thing a non-gendered name does.)
 
user351483
I thought for a second there that I had somehow bounced back into the TL.
 
@MarkAmery Yeah, that's wrong. Non-binary implies a gender identity outside the binary spectrum. Some people don't care, but some people do.
 
where is @rene when you need them
 
Give the flower some rest. He can't be stuck in here all day without sunlight.
 
11:04 AM
@PrincessOlivia Hmm - that's a definition that specifically excludes the one thing I thought nonbinary meant
Ah, okay. Going by Wikipedia, I should be distinguishing "nonbinary" and "agender"
And should properly have said "agender" before
 
@MarkAmery tbh I don't get a lot of it. As I once told someone though 'I don't get any of this, but I get it means a lot to you'
 
btw my previous message perfectly illustrates the problem with using they/them vs he/him or she/her: "they" is not a singular pronoun, and for native english speakers, using a plural pronoun when referring to a singular person is almost hardwired as "NO NEVER DO THAT" in the brain. it makes reading things seem wrong, it makes writing things seem wrong
 
So I just try to remember the right pronoun 😁
 
i am not saying this to discourage the use of preferred pronouns, but to help explain why some people may have an issue with them
 
@IanKemp but it doesn't really hurt anyone to say they will
 
11:08 AM
@IanKemp "they" has gotten a meaning as a singular pronoun. Claiming it doesn't is a bit like denying TL;DR: as an actual word. You might not like it, but it still has that definition
 
as a grammar nazi, it makes me extremely uncomfortable to use plural when referring to singular
 
And then try their best to respect that
 
@IanKemp And that is basically Monica's issue (I think)
 
@PrincessOlivia but "them" has not
 
11:10 AM
and regardless of what is the socially correct thing to say, most of us had "correct" english grammar rules beaten into us during or formative years. it's difficult to overcome that hardwiring
 
Difficult, but not impossible. Give it a try.
 
No one is requiring you to get it right on the first go.
 
@IanKemp lemme put it this way
 
What Bart said ^
 
@Snow soon(tm)
 
11:11 AM
@JourneymanGeek Sure - but I question whether there could realistically exist a person who felt strongly about being referred to as "they" rather than by name. A little thought about the implications of picking that pronoun, and the nature of being transgender vs agender, suggests that the answer is "no".
 
If you get it wrong, and someone asks nicely you do it
@MarkAmery yes there is
 
@JourneymanGeek Example?
 
@Bart i am not saying it is difficult or impossible!!! i am saying it is not my (or most people's) default mode of operation, and that trying to force me out of my default mode of operation is going to cause issues
 
@MarkAmery I'd love to but in the current climate I must respect their privacy
I'm afraid I need to ask you to trust me on this, and my judgement that it is important to them
 
i have no problem with calling people their preferred pronoun. i do have a problem if i am required to call them their preferred pronoun, at all times, and if i even slip up (due to hardwiring, or any other factor) i am immediately satan
 
11:13 AM
@MarkAmery I know at least 3 people who prefer they over name, and if I dig into roles on some Discord servers I'm in, I could dig up many more
 
@IanKemp you're human
You mess up
 
@IanKemp That's why the CoC goes too far.
 
The difference is in whether it's willful or not
 
@JourneymanGeek and that is the rub: how do you prove/disprove that
@PrincessOlivia yes
 
@IanKemp can I?
I can ask nicely. Remind folks. Judge by what I see
 
11:15 AM
@JourneymanGeek Ah, sure - did not think you were referring to site users. Assumed this was something you'd read about in a magazine or some such.
 
@MarkAmery no. Actual folks I'd consider friends
 
Interesting
Well, that's frustrating
Since it turns the issue into an actual conflict (between courtesy and clarity)
 
So here's the difficult thing
 
Rather than the completely insane baseless firing I previously understood it to be
 
I agree with the spirit of that is asked of us
 
11:17 AM
@JourneymanGeek of course, and there are obviously going to be cases (repeat offenders) where the answer is pretty clear-cut. but i don't want to get a star on my account the first time i accidently misgender someone, and then the next time i do it i'm kicked out
 
@IanKemp so you come back, apologize, and don't do it again
 
@JourneymanGeek i guess it would be up to how they decide to classify repeat offenders
 
We
Cause honestly I think what happened to Monica is unacceptable
 
considering SE inc's recent actions, i'm pretty sure it's they
 
@IanKemp unless they prefer something else
 
11:19 AM
But I also think that we owe it to members of my community to make sure they are treated with respect
 
@AndrasDeak trololololololol :p
@JourneymanGeek absolutely - i just don't want to have to operate in 1984-mode
 
@IanKemp you don't have to
 
@AndrasDeak bloody well feels like 1984 is where all this is going
 
be nice, and if while being nice you're warned for not being nice, go away because there's nothing left for you here
 
fair nuff
 
11:21 AM
@PrincessOlivia does it? Sincerely asking, because I haven't seen it, and I don't think it realistically will be "slip up once and it's on the log fire with you"
 
We are not barbarians
 
@IanKemp don't worry, I'm not dead yet.
 
410
 
@Bart From what I've gathered (disclaimer: might've misunderstood, working off what mods have said about the change, blah blah blah) it's a strict enforcement of pronouns. Not sure about effective execution, but under the CoC, it's still defined as a violation.
 
@Zoethetransgirl I'm sure I have on occasion violated being nice as well. When that was pointed out, I have generally sought to understand, apologized, and we moved on. At no point has this caused any further friction.
 
11:24 AM
@rene you must be the longest-lived flower ever. also the first flower with a chance of being WORLD PRESIDENT
 
Like I said, I might've read into it wrong. But with Twitter Driven Complaints, you never know...
 
@Zoethetransgirl there certainly have been issues which have been handled less than stellar. Which are a large part of the community concern. But I don't foresee an Oprah-like "You get suspended, you get suspended, EVERYBODY GETS SUSPENDED" in our future either. Just try to be kind, listen if you screw up, adapt to the best of your ability, and in general you should be fine. If I'm wrong about all that, colour me surprised.
 
We'll see I guess.
 
@Zoethetransgirl you sound about as positive as i am that this will end well :/
 
fetches the paint ...
 
11:28 AM
I somehow predicted that response ...
 
Some things never change
You know you can count on me ...
 
She loves me, she loves me not...
 
@IanKemp I believe the CoC is greatly exaggerated (good idea, bad execution). They might change it after this mess to make it slightly more open, in which case it'll hopefully be good, but it's far too strict to cover all the cases. Aside excluding some people actively and putting others in a pressured situation, the pressure affects everyone. in its current state, it's bad.
 
@Zoethetransgirl that is my take on it too. i'm just concerned that the "might change" might not happen
especially considering SE inc's past spectacular missteps
 
the past ones don't matter. Just look at the last week
 
11:41 AM
@MarkAmery there are people who find "they" offensive for grammatical reasons, and people who find it offensive for identity reasons. There are also people who find a lack of "they" offensive.
So clearly someone's always going to be offended
 
@OrangeDog and then there are the people offended that someone is offended (IMO the real issue here)
 
user351483
They key thing is ackknowledging that first mistake as a mistake, correct it moving forward when requested. People don't generally be offended on a first mistake, but do when it get repeated a few times and it verges on intentional.
 
410
@Snow There are other alternatives, such as painting. And many other ways to spend the newly acquired free time.
 
@Snow people should acknowledge taking offence as a mistake? I'm sure people would find that offensive.
 
410
But it's often said in the context of addiction that relapse is a part of recovery. At least my own experience with SE addiction supports that.
 
11:46 AM
@OrangeDog if you're breathing, someone somewhere is offended. The goal should be to reduce that - because it's impossible to get rid of it entirely.
 
@OrangeDog we're supposed to assume positive intent until shown otherwise
 
user351483
Yep. I'm in the TL again.
 
@Zoethetransgirl can confirm, my very existence pisses off some racists
 
and mine for, well I'm not sure how to describe the group, militant atheists?
 
@Snow the first rule of TL....
@Zoethetransgirl uhm. That can be a little literal for some :/
@410 yet you're still here
Sorry. On my phone
So here's the thing. Its really frustrating to have someone tell you 'do this or else'
The or else here isn't and shouldn't be punishment
 
12:00 PM
@JourneymanGeek Yup.
 
The or else is people being hurt
Actual real people
People keep talking about 1984
In the novel Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949), by George Orwell, the Two Minutes Hate is the daily, public period during which members of the Outer Party of Oceania must watch a film depicting the enemies of the state, specifically Emmanuel Goldstein and his followers, to openly and loudly express hatred for them. The political purpose of the Two Minutes Hate is to allow the citizens of Oceania to vent their existential anguish and personal hatreds towards politically expedient enemies: Goldstein and the enemy superstate of the moment. In re-directing the members' subconscious feelings away from the...
People forget this
 
yeah.. picked up that book after hearing about it here
 
We all first have to read the book before we can continue this discussion ...
 
I'd also recommend Lord of the flies
 
On a positive note that also might distract everyone from the current stress ...
 
12:08 PM
Don't forget to post on /r/books when you finish them /s
 
@JourneymanGeek I love children's stories
 
wait are we adding "The Crucible" and "The Lottery" in too? if so then we have a middle school literature class
 
How much (internally) does SE actually know about inclusion and diversity, especially across an international audience? I'm getting the impression of a lot of ham-fisted "peformative wokeness". (I should probably write this up, but I don't have the energy.)
 
@TRiGisTimothyRichardGreen I don't know
I don't think any of us knows
 
@TRiGisTimothyRichardGreen That is a central concern yes
 
12:12 PM
@Mgetz hated the former
 
@JourneymanGeek we read it parallel to a social studies unit on freedom of expression and the red scare here in the US.
so it made a lot more sense
The irony is that later on I'd learn more details about the red scare and how it was a very real threat, and that it was abused by some to go after their political opponents. Thus shielding the actual spies.
 
@Mgetz and that never came up in a Social Studies class specifically about it?!
 
@Mgetz ah. Was a lit text
 
@OrangeDog No, the lesson taught in social studies was about paranoia and McCarthyism. They don't really talk about the fact there were actual spies, many of which continued to spy into the 70s and even 80s
@JourneymanGeek yeah for us it was all about the metaphor for HUAC
 
Which it was
 
12:22 PM
come to think of it I don't think we covered the Rosenbergs or Alger Hiss until High school US History
 
Funny thing is we skipped a lot of that
Our history was mainly regional history and the world wars
 
Why would you cover them? We barely covered them except in the context of US-Soviet relations
 
ooh
We wouldn't
But also a lot of school history is designed to teach a certain... uhm
view of history
Singapore has a few things they want to push
 
yeah spies aren't exactly what most countries are proud of "Yeah... we had these spies that were working for our enemies"
but it's hard to ignore the Rosenbergs and Hiss
 
the idea of a "fortress" mentality - we're a small, diverse country, and we absolutely will get crushed if we don't stick to...
....
waiiiiiit
 
12:30 PM
@JourneymanGeek waiting
 
lol
@Mgetz that's what I feel about the current situation lol
Though in singapore the implicit narrative is we will fall without good governance
 
@TRiGisTimothyRichardGreen I always assumed more then an average company but that is based on gut feeling not by actual evidence / proof that I could refer to.
 
and yanno "ONLY WE CAN KEEP SINGAPORE PROSPEROUS AND RICH!"
 
@JourneymanGeek I thought you and malaysia basically had an agreement that it wasn't working out and you'd be friends but not one country? Which is a nice way of saying they kicked you out?
 
@Mgetz oh
So, we're basically the equivilent of the unadoptable dog
We got kicked out of the empire, then malaysia. Then the brits (who were our main line of defence) just left...
So, naturally we asked the israelis for help
 
12:35 PM
@JourneymanGeek really the old go to used to be south africa
 
@Mgetz honestly - for someone we pretend not to know that well...
they had quite an effect on us ;p
 
@Mgetz Where the Dutch left a great track record ...
 
@rene oh, they also colonised indonesia
 
@TRiGisTimothyRichardGreen I think I kind of know what you mean by "performative wokeness", but if you have suggestions for writeups on its usage/history I'd love to see them.
 
then got conned of malaysia by one Sir Stamford Raffles
 
12:36 PM
@rene I only know because I had a south african co-worker once, that mentioned it. Basically south africa became the go to place for pariah states to get IT gear and services during the cold war.
 
@Mgetz we weren't a pariah state though
we were just... erm...
kinda lost and alone
 
@JourneymanGeek yes, we did. Not a nice history there ...
 
@Mgetz salesmen ...
 
@rene still better than Belgium and the DRC
brb rebooting for updates
 
user351483
12:41 PM
<lets all hide>
 
@Mgetz Welcome to Lindows / Windux
 
user351483
PRESS F1 TO BOOT IN SAFE MODE
 
@rene but does it leave a streak free shine
 
user351483
AMIBIOS 1.02 (c)1992
 
NO KEYBOARD
 
user351483
12:44 PM
ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US
 
and the one I found only has a PS/2 connector
 
BOOT DEVICE NOT FOUND, INSERT TEA OR COFFEE AND TRY AGAIN
 
user194636
@MarkAmery Leaving the specific instance of Monica aside, my understanding of one of the broad issues is that using names instead of pronouns might be ok, but only if you do it for everyone, and you're not doing it just to avoid pronouns you don't wish to use. In general, you could say: use pronouns as you normally would, and if someone asks you to use a particular one for them, do so.
 
Does that mean I can request from people to call me Superman?
 
user194636
No because that would be obviously taking the piss
 
12:55 PM
request you can, if honored, you'll have to wait and see
 
user351483
How many more Meta threads are going to be created? I can see SE and the CM team reaching a critical mass and saying "Screw this, we're out of here for a week" and heading for the beach house in a couple of pickup trucks and a crate of beer.
 
user194636
is rene in yoda mode?
 
user194636
@Snow tbh nothing much would surprise me at this point, including turning off meta, and disbanding chat
 
user194636
both have walked a fine line of utility for years
 
@PaulWhite Ha! Just in friday afternoon mode
but that doesn't matter for the quality of my gibberish
 
user194636
12:58 PM
ha ha ha
 
1 message moved to Trashcan
just in case ...
no offense @Caleb
 

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