ArsTechnica

Staff / From the minds of Ars

More signal, less noise: cleaning up our comments

The quality and civility of comments at Ars has declined of late; we need your …

Today, I would like to discuss with our community the recent decline in both quality and civility in our front page news discussions/comments. While I remain proud of our community discussions on articles, and while I acknowledge that they are far superior to the status quo online, things have taken a turn for the worse in recent months. 

As much as we might like to believe that it is related simply to controversial topics, such as the iPad or climate change, the fact is that we see the problem all over the place, in all sorts of topic areas. And it's not just the staff. In recent months, long-time readers (people who have been here for nearly a decade or more) have complained publicly and privately about the decline in quality and civility.

One of the things that makes our community so awesome is that you guys are tech and science experts, to varying degrees. You're smart as hell, and you have a passion for tech that I think is unmatched. But discussions really suffer when people start calling each other names, when they start making unfounded accusations of impropriety, and when they stop being about a discussion and start being about attacking others.

We're asking everyone to work together to help us improve this situation. One thing I would like everyone to remember is that we do not practice active moderation. That is, nowhere in our community platform are there moderators whose role it is to read every post and judge it according to the posting guidelines. We rely on readers to report bad behavior to us, although it is true that moderators do catch bad behavior directly in the course of their daily reading. Those moderators do not currently extend to front page news discussions, though our editorial staff does take action against spammers as noticed.

At a minimum, we are preparing to appoint specific moderators for news discussions. Beyond that, we might consider further restrictions/actions; we are not interested in having a few bad apples ruin the basket. Before any of that happens, we'd like to hear from you.

How can we all make the commenting experience better? 

  • Communicate with us. Report people that step over the line (mods@arstechnica.com). Offer suggestions. Help us think of solutions.
  • Don't feed the trolls. By that I mean, don't respond to (obviously) idiotic posts and people who are clearly trying to start flame wars.
  • Consider whether or not what you are saying and the way you are saying it reflects how you would communicate to someone in person.

I look forward to a (civil) discussion!

Expand full story

557 Reader Comments

  1. First!
    4437 posts | registered
  2. Fantastic idea! Long-time reader here and I have noticed that things have sadly gone downhill lately. Hopefully the community can turn things around.
    3517 posts | registered
  3. "At a minimum, we are preparing to appoint specific moderators for news discussions."

    How do I apply?
    4429 posts | registered
  4. Would love to have ranked comments at some point in the future :)

    It's also important to point out having links to back your argument(s) up. Chances are if you can't provide one, it's just your opinion and not worth getting in a virtual fight over, as fun as it may be. ;]
    645 posts | registered
  5. Onyx wrote:
    First!

    I see what you did there and sir I do not enjoy it >:(


    Well that's a lie because in this context it is pretty funny but still.
    281 posts | registered
  6. Riot wrote:
    Onyx wrote:
    First!

    I see what you did there and sir I do not enjoy it >:(


    Well that's a lie because in this context it is pretty funny but still.

    And you're feeding the troll.
    344 posts | registered
  7. I know I'm horrible to start it with that. I'm feeling giddy and it's Friday, so when I stumble on an article about comments going downhill and it has a message at the bottom saying "No comments, you could be the first!" my hands were suddenly typing it before I could stop myself.

    Last edited by Onyx on Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:05 pm

    4437 posts | registered
  8. THX wrote:
    Would love to have ranked comments at some point in the future

    No. No, no no, and furthermore, no. Bad, horrible idea. Every major site that has implemented such a system has had it suffer from incredible abuse, because people downrate posts they don't agree with, instead of ones that are just bad or break the rules.
    2298 posts | registered
  9. THX wrote:
    Would love to have ranked comments at some point in the future :)


    I would not. It's too easy for someone with a differing opinion to rule yours out. Everyone's opinion counts (even if it stinks...which they all do ;)).
    2980 posts | registered
  10. There's probably no way to gauge this, but has your audience (and, thusly, commenting body) changed significantly? I would say Ars has been leaning more mainstream (you are a company, afterall).

    Maybe it was just a matter of time -- attract the world and you get the world, and all the good and bad things that come with it.

    You could experiment, if it didn't destroy your business plan, with less mainstream (e.g. gaming -- we have so many gaming websites out there already!) articles and more articles that are more technically dense / more arduous / more complex. That does sound unnecessarily elitist, but maybe it will concentrate the site to its technologists' roots.

    Otherwise, you'll just have to re-post this warning every year or so to remind people to calm down.

    All that said, at least your comments are still better than Youtube!
    16 posts | registered
  11. Onyx For Moderator!

    But in all seriousness, as long as you don't cop out like Engadget did and silence the masses, we'll still be friends.
    13 posts | registered
  12. RockDaMan wrote:
    "At a minimum, we are preparing to appoint specific moderators for news discussions."

    How do I apply?


    Right. That'll go over well.*

    *I would totally tell him that to his face.
    2980 posts | registered
  13. I'm pretty sure the comment posted at 08 Apr 2010 18:22 in the linked thread is the kind of incivility that being referenced here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1089123
    4429 posts | registered
  14. TK wrote:
    THX wrote:
    Would love to have ranked comments at some point in the future

    No. No, no no, and furthermore, no. Bad, horrible idea. Every major site that has implemented such a system has had it suffer from incredible abuse, because people downrate posts they don't agree with, instead of ones that are just bad or break the rules.


    This.

    I'd note too that it's just not Ars. It seems to be the Internet in general. Engadget has had problems, as have other sites.
    4429 posts | registered
  15. Quote:
    AndrewFaulds wrote:

    And you're feeding the troll.


    No, in this case, I think the irony was hilarious and deserved a thumbs up.

    On topic: I think it would be great to have the community label known Mac/Windows/Sony/Microsoft/chinchilla sympathizers. Similar to how the community rates politically charged comment threads on fark. Sure it would add a hue (visually/emotionally) to all of the specific poster's future comments, but it would be fun.

    Er.. Maybe that isn't such a good idea.

    Last edited by jimmyeatapple on Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:07 pm

    617 posts | registered
  16. good initiative, but please, please do think about what kind of example your own staff sets.
    So far I had never made any use of this forum, but this post by a staff member of yours made
    me absolutely furious:

    Astounding wrote:
    "And just like that I turned adblock back on"

    Kurt ( Tech Director )
    "Yet you're still visiting and reading the site? Way to make a statement..."

    http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2 ... mments-bar

    Made me turn on adblocker myself only seconds after reading that.

    EDIT: The mentioned article did seem to have a strong bias towards Apple. Nothing wrong about that, but you should consider getting in a second pow like you did so fine in your serie on the PS3, Wii and X-Box 365. Please do consider that people might not be commenting wildly in order to cause havoc, but rather to protest against a seemingly poor level of critical journalism.

    /Lars

    Last edited by larsbol on Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:19 pm

    12 posts | registered
  17. Quote:
    How can we all make the commenting experience better?

    * Communicate with us. Report people that step over the line (mods@arstechnica.com). Offer suggestions. Help us think of solutions.
    * Don't feed the trolls. By that I mean, don't respond to (obviously) idiotic posts and people who are clearly trying to start flame wars.
    * Consider whether or not what you are saying and the way you are saying it reflects how you would communicate to someone in person.
    In the new forums, is the Report This Post link equivalent to emailing mods@ars?
    13415 posts | registered
  18. How likely is it that this is a direct result of Ars's efforts to integrate commenting into the news post system? Previously, the many visitors passing through would have followed links from wherever to Ars content, and then left. A much smaller number would have found the quite separate forums.
    894 posts | registered
  19. Please no rated posts >_< so full of fail.

    How about a "report this post" button in the upper right along with the quote button on each reply? Maybe just under news stories?

    Last edited by FoO on Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:12 pm

    11727 posts | registered
  20. A "report this post" button would be good.
    3920 posts | registered
  21. I'd have to agree with THX -- ranked comments may be worth trying. If a particular comment's ranking reaches a low threshold, it gets hidden and can only be viewed if specifically clicked on.

    Well, sounds good... in theory, at least.
    2725 posts | registered
  22. Yeah, I was trolling pretty bad.
    121 posts | registered
  23. Some advice, then: the community starts with you, the authors and editors. I came to this post from one titled "How iPhone OS destroys Windows Phone 7 without even shipping", which sounds like borderline trolling on your part. Strongly expressed predictions like that will bring out the trolls.

    And in it, there was one of those comments specially highlighted so we'd know it was from a staff member, calling somebody a douche for saying he was turning his ad blocker back on because he disliked the article. Now, sure, he may have been. But if that's the tone the official representatives of this page are taking, it communicates an acceptance of that sort of behavior by others.

    You produce an excellent news source, and I hope the community can grow up a little. If your goal is to have a more civil discussions you have to be the role models.
    207 posts | registered
  24. Did it perchance happen when Engadget closed down their commenting and some of the trolls didn't have a proper place to.... troll, and oozed their way over here?

    Is that a troll comment in itself?

    Ahhhh! I think I just unmade the universe with that realization.
    339 posts | registered
  25. AndrewFaulds wrote:
    Riot wrote:
    Onyx wrote:
    First!

    I see what you did there and sir I do not enjoy it >:(


    Well that's a lie because in this context it is pretty funny but still.

    And you're feeding the troll.


    Oh come on, it was funny. If I had mod points, I'd prove it.

    More to the point, if you want trolls to not be fed, some sort of user moderation might be useful. Unfortunately, while I haven't looked much, I've never seen a really good system. Does anyone know of a good user-driven moderation system that doesn't just devolve into "I agree/disagree with this post?"
    2499 posts | registered
  26. It seems to me that anything to do with AGW will always start a war. Although I always find the discussions interesting, they do tend to become fairly heated and name calling usually begins.

    Perhaps there should be some sort of clears ARS code of conduct posted somewhere easily found?
    2402 posts | registered
  27. Hehe, it's all my fault when. Nagumo + alcohol = pure evil. :face muahahaha:
    4396 posts | registered
  28. electronox wrote:
    There's probably no way to gauge this, but has your audience (and, thusly, commenting body) changed significantly? I would say Ars has been leaning more mainstream (you are a company, afterall).

    Maybe it was just a matter of time -- attract the world and you get the world, and all the good and bad things that come with it.

    You could experiment, if it didn't destroy your business plan, with less mainstream (e.g. gaming -- we have so many gaming websites out there already!) articles and more articles that are more technically dense / more arduous / more complex. That does sound unnecessarily elitist, but maybe it will concentrate the site to its technologists' roots.

    Otherwise, you'll just have to re-post this warning every year or so to remind people to calm down.

    All that said, at least your comments are still better than Youtube!

    That, I think, sums up the problem quite well. You guys have done a great job drawing in readers, and encouraging readers to post - your site redesigns, subscription plan, and monthly contests seem to be paying off in increased participation in news discussions, which is good.

    But as electronox says, when you appeal to a broader cross-section of the population, you necessarily include a greater number (not necessarily proportion, but number) of...well, civility demands I not use my first choice of words, so I instead refer you to the pertinent Penny Arcade strip with which I am sure you're already familiar.

    Unfortunately, the each additional bad actor has a disproportionately large impact on the quality of the discussion, so though the proportion of good to useless posters doesn't change, the SNR drops.

    I don't have a solution, of course - though I look forward to these discussions being moderated - but I think it's an important point to consider.
    18362 posts | registered
  29. Huh. Can't seem to delete this post.

    Last edited by FoO on Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:12 pm

    11727 posts | registered
  30. I think a commenting ranking system could work *if* the quality of a user's ranking of other posts somehow affected that user. So if you routinely go flagging posts as abusive and the mods disagree, that would negatively affect you. Generate enough negative points, and you're prohibited from ranking other posts until you've redeemed yourself with enough posts ranked up. Maybe get your posts hidden by default if you really make a pest of yourself.

    Not proof against dedicated abuse, but could put a damper on a lot.

    Last edited by Galeran on Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:12 pm

    1439 posts | registered
  31. skicow wrote:
    A "report this post" button would be good.


    Seconded. And then provide which community rule it had broken. You could even have an "other" election in the drop-down or sub-context menu where the reporter of the bad post could fit in their own reason (left up to the moderator to ultimately interpret, natch).
    2980 posts | registered
  32. TK wrote:
    THX wrote:
    Would love to have ranked comments at some point in the future

    No. No, no no, and furthermore, no. Bad, horrible idea. Every major site that has implemented such a system has had it suffer from incredible abuse, because people downrate posts they don't agree with, instead of ones that are just bad or break the rules.


    ++

    Good example was in Yahoo News, with an article talking about starvation in Sudan. Article went on and on about how children are starving over there. Someone made a comment that if people can't afford to eat, they should stop having children. While they said it in pretty blunt fashion, it was a very succinct comment that focused on a large, root-cause of the issue which the article (and most articles talking about starvation in third world countries) never want to bring up. The comment was voted down pretty fast & hard, though. People didn't agree with it, or they felt it didn't "apply" to the discussion for some reason, or whatever. I thought it was meaningful contribution. But most folks don't like meaningful contribution...they want a distraction in their life that makes them feel better about themselves. Or, they want a platform where they can preach.

    I'll get off my soap box now. ;)
    4886 posts | registered
  33. Quote:
    In the new forums, is the Report This Post link equivalent to emailing mods@ars?

    No, it sets up a visual flag on the thread that a moderator can click on to see the report.
    22105 posts | registered
  34. I've been reading Ars for about six months now, and as it says in my profile the entire <i>reason</i> I registered, and eventually subscribed to this site is the quality of the comments overall.

    That said, what do you all think of a comment ranking system that utilizes a kind of economic model of sorts? Say, each person starts with one point, and each time you want to downgrade someone's comment it costs you a point, and removes one of theirs. Just a thought. Comments/criticisms welcome.
    112 posts | registered
  35. Quote:
    RockDaMan Wrote:
    I'm pretty sure the comment posted at 08 Apr 2010 18:22 in the linked thread is the kind of incivility that being referenced here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1089123


    I didn't see their previous post, but the one referenced looked quite well thought out. I disagree that making fun of someone will get them to shut up (quite the opposite really), but his/her general disdain towards "equal time" is very relatable and presented well.
    617 posts | registered
  36. If we could do something about the people signing-up their first day and leaving obvious flamebait/trolls on certain controversial threads (like climate change or evolution), that would be terrific. I get extremely annoyed with the "hit-and-run" forum fundie activists.
    2980 posts | registered
  37. Polama wrote:
    Some advice, then: the community starts with you, the authors and editors. I came to this post from one titled "How iPhone OS destroys Windows Phone 7 without even shipping", which sounds like borderline trolling on your part.



    Ars has a history of headlines like that. They have strong opinions and they express them that way. It's not trolling, except to those that are perhaps thin-skinned.

    "Evony: investigating the game everyone loves to hate"
    "RIP Palm: it's over, and here's why"
    "Idiot users still intentionally opening, clicking on spam"
    4429 posts | registered
  38. Warning long post about to come up.

    i think like most people i come here for civilised tech debate (I am the only tech geek in my office so if i want proper debate i look online) as well as expert analysis from the posters who clearly know more about specific areas e.g. law then i do.

    I have noticed though that there seems to be a lot of the time people just look for arguments especially in copywright discussions and it always starts with the semantics over the word theft which turns into a 20 comment back on forth on the same tired old topic whereas the reality of whatever the issue today has got lost.

    My other pet hate is the spelling and grammer mob who seem to take almost childlike delight in pointing out that some of us type things quickly and dont always think to recheck everything for perfect english (this must annoy none native english speakers as well no end).

    I think that if as a group of posters a bit more calm and thought goes into what you type (especially making sure you read a whole post not just one line/word I have often been typing something as a response and then reread the original comment only to realise i was in the wrong forest let along the wrong tree) and rather then argue finicky points of grammer or words we stick to the topics then the place will improve a lot.

    On the topic of moderators as long as they are fair and dont play favorites with rules applying equally to all I have no problems (e.g. not just banning people cause they think apple and google are evil incarnate)
    189 posts | registered
  39. Ed209 wrote:
    I'd have to agree with THX -- ranked comments may be worth trying. If a particular comment's ranking reaches a low threshold, it gets hidden and can only be viewed if specifically clicked on.

    Well, sounds good... in theory, at least.


    The Gawker network has a similar system (well, actually Engadget had a more similar system with direct ratings for each comment a la Digg, but I don't know what they do now) where special commenters get starred and become the focus of the conversation in which case they can approve non-starred comments to make them appear (there's a link to show only approved/starred comments or show all). I think it works well to weed out the spam and open comments (Facebook connect logins who don't have to register).

    Whatever is done, you will never please all of the users - as the old addage goes.
    339 posts | registered

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