From Bit.listserv.christia

Zane writes...

From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahan)
Subject: Christianity in Crisis
Date: Wed May 12 14:43:19 1993

"Frank, first of all, thanks for all of the great Scripture verses.  It
was a pleasure to read them."

MY REPLY...
You are welcome, Zane.

Zane...
"I am sure nothing that I will say will change your mind about it... but I
would like to ask you if the book in question really does anything for you.
I mean, were you all caught up in the word/faith thing, but now that you
have read the book you've been rescued from all of the error and pain that
will result in your Christian life?"

MY REPLY...
(1) When I first became a Christian, I entered into the Word/Faith
    movement.  It was easy.  I wasn't grounded in the Word of God and sound
    doctrine.  When I visited Christian book stores, the cheapest books I
    could find to buy were the .50 and $1.00 books by Hagin and others.
    Consequently, I began receiving Hagin's monthly magazine (and they
    still send it to me), and also Copeland's (also, still sent to me).
    It wasn't until I read a booklet by Jimmy Swaggart called _Hyper Faith:
    The New Gnosticism_ that I began to realize the teachings I were
    partaking of were error.  I started reading the Bible more and studying
    more.  Sure enough, Jimmy was right in many points.  As part of my
    experience, I am alerting Christians, particularly new Christians, that
    these teachings are heretical and they need to do as the Bereans did in
    Acts 17:11 - check these teachings out with Scripture!

(2) My brother in law was involved in a Word/Faith "cult" in my area - it's
    leader is real good friends with Benny Hinn.  Rather then going into
    much detail about this, suffice it to say he was deceived, mistreated, and
    has now fallen into atheism.  I'm still praying for him (Phil. 1:6).

(3) The assistant pastor at the church I teach adult Sunday School in has been
    a `follower' of Copeland for 15 years.  He has thousands of tapes by the
    Faith teachers.  In the class recently, I quoted several of the teachers'
    heretical statements to his surprise.  Since then, I've been able to talk
    to him at length about these issues.

(4) The leader of the Women's Group at my church is a Benny Hinn `fan'.
    Recently, I found that she has been lending _Good Morning, Holy Spirit_ to
    women in the church.  That prompted my quotes in Sunday School, as well as
    my lending CIC to people in the church.

I'm well aware of the abuses and heresies perpetrated in this movement and
have an urgency in my heart and life to warn people about the heresies.
What heresies?
    A. Jesus became sin - took on the very nature of the devil, and became
        one with him.
    B. Jesus' death on the cross wasn't enough to atone.
    C. Jesus was dragged to hell after His death, was beat and abused by
        Satan and demons, thus finishing our atonement.  Satan was ruling
        over Him there.
    D. Jesus was `born-again' in hell.
    E. Jesus died spiritually, lost His divinity, and reassumed it after
        the resurrection.
    F. We are gods.

These are heresies.  Documentation will be provided re: these teachings
upon request.

Zane...
"Or what does it do for you?  Is it preventing you from going out and
joining up with the word/faith movement which you'd been contemplating
joining for so long, but now that you've read the book, you've been saved
from all of that?"

MY REPLY...
It wasn't _Christianity In Crisis_ that helped me; it was a booklet by
Swaggart that I mentioned above.  But CIC is MUCH, MUCH better - tremendous
documentation and insights.

Zane...
"I don't have a nice Scriptural answer for why I believe it is at best un-
profitable for Christians to engage in this type of activity - heresy hunting."

MY REPLY...
Why do you call it "heresy hunting"?  "Hunting" implies it isn't readily
accessible or available.  This movement is the fastest growing movement in
Christendom.  Hagin has sold over 40 million books and booklets.  Hinn has sold
more books in the last couple of years than Swindoll and Dobson combined.  Fred
Price has the largest church in terms of seating capacity in the USA.  Doesn't
sound like much "hunting" is needed.

It is Scriptural to expose doctrinal error.  I gave some verses to you before.
More can be given.  Most of the epistles were written due to error (doctrinal,
practical) in the churches.  The early church had numerous councils to expose
error and heresy.  It's not a new thing.  Remember Luther?

Zane...
"I would like to point out though, that historically those who hunt heretics
often end up causing a bigger mess than the heretics... but this is my un-
documented opinion."

MY REPLY...
(1) If you can provide documentation, it would be appreciated.
(2) Read Ephesians 4:11-16, esp. vss. 13 and 14 and tell me what causes
    disunity and immaturity in the body.

EPH 4:13-14 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of
the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness
of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried
about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning
craftiness of deceitful plotting....

Disunity, contrary to popular opinion, isn't caused by exposing error; it's
caused by error.

Zane...
"There are many who probably give no place for seeing the Scriptures as
documenting a Spiritual development or growth in its writers - but I would
suggest that the fiery Paul of the letter to the Galatians mellows and
matures into the one who loses all for the sake of Love in the End."

MY REPLY...
Most scholars believe Paul wrote 2 Timothy last.  Let's examine his admonitions
to Tim to ascertain how mellow he had become...

2TI 1:13-15 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me,
in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. That good thing which was
committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. This you know, that
all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and
Hermogenes.

2TI 2:15-18 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does
not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane
and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their
message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who
have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already
past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

2TI 2:24-26 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all,
able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if
God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and
that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having
been taken captive by him to do his will.

2TI 3:6-9 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make
captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as
Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of
corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; but they will progress no
further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

2TI 3:12-17 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer
persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving
and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned
and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from
childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise
for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by
inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be
complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2TI 4:2-5 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince,
rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come
when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires,
because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and
they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an
evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

2TI 4:14-15 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him
according to his works. You also must beware of him, for he has greatly
resisted our words.

Zane...
"The picture I have of Paul is not of one who goes out of his way to destroy
the ministry of wolves... but of one who teaches the sheep, with many tears,
the necessity of absolutely not allowing themselves to be transformed into
wolves to protect themselves."

MY REPLY...
ACT 20:26-31 "Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the
blood of all men. "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel
of God. "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which
the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He
purchased with His own blood. "For I know this, that after my departure savage
wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. "Also from among
yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the
disciples after themselves. "Therefore watch, and remember that for three years
I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Zane...
"For all the warning Paul does, it is of note that he never once drops a name
of a wolf....  - but I will admit he cries in his beard at the end over those
who have abandoned him - everyone in Asia wasn't it ?"

MY REPLY...
Paul mentioned names...

1TI 1:18-20 This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the
prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good
warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected,
concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and
Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2TI 1:15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among
whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

2TI 2:16-18 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more
ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus
are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the
resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

2TI 4:10 for Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and has
departed for Thessalonica--Crescens for Galatia, Titus for Dalmatia.

2TI 4:14-15 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him
according to his works. You also must beware of him, for he has greatly
resisted our words.

So did John...

3JO 1:9-10 I wrote to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have the
preeminence among them, does not receive us. Therefore, if I come, I will call
to mind his deeds which he does, prating against us with malicious words. And
not content with that, he himself does not receive the brethren, and forbids
those who wish to, putting them out of the church.

Jesus also singled out teachings and doctrines...

REV 2:14-16 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those
who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block
before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit
sexual immorality. "Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the
Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. 'Repent, or else I will come to you quickly
and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

REV 2:20-23 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow
that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My
servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. "And I
gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.
"Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her
into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. "I will kill her
children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches
the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your
works.

Zane...
"I question too, the purposes of those who write books and build ministries
on the faults - deliberate or otherwise - of others.  Maybe if they would
wander around in the desert eating locust and honey, or barely cakes...with
no worldly goods at stake, money to be made, or no reputations to maintain...
I would question their motives - conscious or otherwise - less."

MY REPLY...
I won't comment on this because it deals with the intangible motives of others.
But even if they had bad motives, remember what Paul said...

PHI 1:15-18 Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also
from good will: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely,
supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing
that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in
every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I
rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.

Zane...
"If we want to be true to the admonitions of Scripture - many of which you
list - about protecting ourselves and the flock from wolves and winds of
doctrines, I suggest we start by allowing the wolf-program in our own noetic
pasture to be nailed to the Cross."

MY REPLY...
Please explain.

Zane...
"Secondly, I suggest any heresy hunting be restricted to our own fellowships -
which in the strict Scriptural sense is the local city-church."

MY REPLY...
If heresy was not being propagated over the mass media, then it may not be
needed to go mass media with the exposure.  Unfortunately, heresy is being
taught not just in Copeland's church or Hagin's or Hinn's or Price's, but all
over the radio, in print, etc.  No pastor or church leader knows what materials
the sheep are feeding on outside the church.  It's imperative that leadership
be made aware of this, and CIC does just that.

Also, let's examine a passage of Scripture...
* EPH 4:11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some
evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,
* EPH 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the
edifying of the body of Christ,

These ministry gifts that the Lord installs in the church are not just for one
individual church, but for "the body of Christ".
Paul was an apostle - he traveled all over distilling his message.  He was also
a teacher -
1CO 4:17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and
faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach
everywhere in every church.
1CO 7:17 But as God has distributed to each one, as the Lord has called each
one, so let him walk. And so I ordain in all the churches.

Also -
1CO 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second
prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps,
administrations, varieties of tongues.

* EPH 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of
the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness
of Christ;

Notice that the "Five-Fold" ministries are going to be around "till" the church
is in "unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect
man".  This, I believe will not occur fully until the Lord Jesus returns (see
1Cor. 13:9-12).  But God wants the body to continue on maturing.  What hinders
maturity and unity of the body?

* EPH 4:14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried
about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning
craftiness of deceitful plotting,

It's clear that false doctrine, integrated into the church "by the trickery of
men" causes (1) disunity [the thing we are striving for] and (2) spiritual
immaturity - the church continues in spiritual childhood when Christians are
"tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine".

The "Five -Fold" ministry, of which there does not appear to be clear
Scriptural denominational boundaries ("pastors" appear responsible for their
individual flock), is to deal with these doctrines (when necessary) in their
struggle to equip the body.

All believers are called to do this to a degree...
JUD 1:3-4 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our
common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend
earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For
certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this
condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny
the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Zane...
"If you'll notice, in Scripture the heresy hunters that went from Church to
Church and area to area, were the "bad guys" and they went after the "good guy"
namely Paul - who they considered to be the arch heretic."

MY REPLY...
They were themselves heretics trying to discredit Paul who was preaching
contrary to what they taught!

Zane...
"Let's face it, the wolves are here for a reason.  And we are here for the
Reason.  And let's hope the wolves become sheep, and the sheep, lambs."

MY REPLY...
Yes!
2TI 2:24-26 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all,
                                                           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  ~~
God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having
been taken captive by him to do his will.

AMEN!

Frank


Subject says it all, though I should specify that I'm looking for solutions
that DON'T require me purchasing specific chips, etc....

In other words, is there some sort of neural network circuit I could build
after a visit to a local R-Shack?


yet.

I'm not bored either.  Most people I know say that winning the second Cup
was better than the first but to me nothing will ever top that first one.
But I'm every bit as excited this year and I am experiencing that inner calm
to which Susan originally referred.  Inner calm is not boredom.

As far as the arena in general being boring, well Richard's got that right.
It's been that way all season.  I attribute it to a lot of new fans who
just don't have the same spirit and knowledge as long-time fans.  At
last Tuesday's game, I overheard a man express surprise that a
goaltender can get an
assist.

Anyone who follows sports with regularity knows that anything can happen
at any time.  I'm confident in the Pens but I'm also not stupid enough to
think for one minute that it's impossible for New Jersey to blow them out
of this series.  I doubt that will happen but it's possible.  Bored?  Uh-uh.
Spoiled?  Not in the least.  Forgot what excitement is like?  Living through
that amazing streak wasn't exciting?!  I don't take a darned thing for
granted.  God, look at Chicago...

And I see no problem with quietly savoring all of this anyway.  It isn't gonna
last forever and I intend to enjoy it while I can.


I use the new keyboard with a IIfx, and I like it. I am not a touch typist
so some of the advantage is loss on me - but there is difference and less
stress on my wrists.

Dan
--


You should have heard Prof. McNally , from my days as an astronomy
undergraduate, denouncing photon pollution. It was easy to imagine him
taking practical steps to modify the sodium lamps on the street
outside Mill Hill observatory with a 12-gauge shotgun :-)

However, seriously, it is possible to limit the effects of
streetlights, by adding a reflector, so that the light only
illuminates the ground, which is after all where you need it. As a
bonus, the power consumption required for a given illumination level
is reduced. Strangely enough, astronomers often seek to lobby elected
local authorities to use such lighting systems, with considerable
success in the desert areas around the major US observatories. At
least, thats what McNally told us, all those years ago.
( British local authorities couldn`t care less, as far as I can see )

I suppose that the "right" to dark skies is no more than an aspiration,
but it is a worthwhile one. Illuminated orbital billboards seem especially
yukky, and are presumably in the area of international law, if any, although
I do find the idea of a right to bear anti-satellite weapons intriguing.


Of course.  When the catbox begines to smell, simply transfer its
contents into the potted plant in the foyer.

"Why Hillary!  Your government smells so... FRESH!"
--


    . . . . .

Please don't be insulted, but based on this I would say that your
encryption algorithm is very likely not worth the paper it's printed
on.  If the NSA gave export approval, that means they felt confident
that they could crack it -- that's their JOB, mandated by LAW, and
I'm sure they believe in what they do.  If they gave export approval
to an encryption algorithm which they weren't confident of being able
to crack, they would be derelict in their sworn duty to monitor foreign
communications for US national security related material.

Just because many (most?) of us think that the government and the spooks
are pugnacious slimeballs is no reason to lose sight of the fact that
they do their jobs to the best of their ability, and further that said
ability is rather high.  I hope that one day we can make them all
obsolete....... but until then, we have to cope with their existence.
Export approvals are one thing they do that we can learn a lot from,
for example.


...

There are several different types of Thyroid diseases which would cause
a hypothyroid condition (reduction in the output of the thyroid, mainly
thyroxin). Except for ones caused by infections, the treatment is
generally thyroxin pills. Hypothyroid conditions caused by infections
usually disappear when the infection does...this doesn't sound like the
case with your wife.
Thyroxin orally does "shut down the thyroid" through a feedback loop
involving the pituitary (I believe). The pituitary "thinks" that the
correct amount of thyroxin is being produced so it doesn't have to
tell the thyroid to produce more. This process is reversable! I have
Hashimoto's thyroiditis (an autoimmune condition) and was on thyroxin
for approx 6 mo when my endocrinologist suggested I not take the pills
for 6 wks. When I was retested for thyroxin levels, they were normal.
I still get tested every 6mo because the condition might reappear.
The pills are safe and have very few side-affects (& those mostly at
beginning of treatment). Having a baby might be a problem and would at
least require closer monitoring of hormone levels.
Thyroxin controls energy production which explains sleepiness, coldness,
and weight gain. There is also water retention (possibly around heart),
changes in vision, and coarser hair and skin among other things.

I am not a doctor, so I'm sure I mistated something, but the important
thing is that thyroid problems are usually easily corrected and if they
aren't corrected can cause problems in the rest of the body. Get a
second opinion from a good endocrinologist and have him/her explain
things in detail to you and your wife.


No.  I also understand it. I have read the Bible from cover to cover, examining
each book within, cross-comparing them, etc.  And I have come to same conclusions
as Robert Weiss.


Yogurt contains Lactobacillus acidophilus and L. bulgaricus.  L.
acidophilus is the major bacteria in the vaginal tract and is primarily
responsible for keeping the vaginal tract acidic and yeast free.  Most of
the commercial yogurt sold in the U.S. has a very low L. acidophilus and L.
bulgaricus count.  Neither of these bacteria are obligate anaerobes with are
much more important in dealing with the diarrhea problem.  Gordon R. has told
me through e-mail that he gives his patients L. acidophilus and several
different obligate anaerobes(which set-up shop in the colon) but he hasn't
told me which ones yet.  The Lactobacillus genera are mostly facultative
anaerobes and will set-up shop where they have access to oxygen if given a
chance(mouth, anus, sinus cavity and vagina).  Having these good bacteria
around will greatly decrease the chance of candida blooms in the anal
region or the vagina.  I have not proposed a systemic action for candida
blooms.  I know that others swear that all kinds of symptoms arise from
the evil yeast blooms in the body.  I'm not ready to buy that yet.  I do
believe that complications at specific sites(vagina, anal and maybe lower
colon, sinus and mouth) can result from antibiotic use which removes the
competing bacteria from these sites and thus lets candida grow unchecked.
Restoring the right bacterial balance is the best way(in my opinion) to get
rid of the problem.  Anti-fungals, a low carbohydrate diet and vitamin A
supplementation may all help to minimize the local irritation until the
good bacteria can take over control of the food supply again and lower the
pH to basically starve the candida out.


I think that if a theist were truly objective and throws out the notion that
God definitely exists and starts from scratch to prove to themselves that
the scriptures are the whole truth then that person would no longer be a
theist.

You're missing something here.  There are people who convert from
non-theism to theism after being brought up in a non-theist household.  (I
don't have any statistics as to how many though.  That would be an
interesting thing to know.)  I think that religion is a crutch.  People are
naturally afraid of the unknown and the unexplainable.  People don't want
to believe that when they die, they are dead, finished.  That there is
nothing else after that.  And so religion is kind of a nice fantasy.
Religion also describes things we don't know about the universe (things
science has not yet described) and it also gives people a feeling of
security... that if they just do this one thing and everything will be ok.
That they are being watched over by a higher power and its minions.  This
has a very high psychological attraction for quite a few people and these
people are willing to put up with a few discrepancies and holes in their
belief system for what it gains them.  This is why I think it's kind of
useless to try too hard to convert theists to atheism.  They are happy with
their fantasy and they feel that other people will be happy with it too
(they can't accept the fact that there are people who would rather accept
the harsh reality that they are running from).

Anyway, I'm getting kind of carried away here.  But my point is that theism
doesn't have to be ingrained into a child's mindset for that person to grow
up as a theist (although this happens far too often).  Theism is designed
to have its own attractions.


Such as?


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 I'd like to echo these sentiments.  This is the worst coverage I can
 ever remember seeing on CBC.  As soon as the game ends, I can count to 30,
 and by that time, they've signed off the air.  No post game interviews,
 no updating of late scores, nothin'.  TSN is really putting CBC to
 shame.  I only hope the later round coverage improves, I mean, who
 really wants to see CBC PrimeTime News instead of hockey.

 My $.02,
  Darren


No, it does not.

--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden


I really don't know how you can possibly maintain this hypocritical
stance.

On the one hand, you imply that there is a conspiracy of Arab-Americans
that warrants the illegal gathering of information on them (ie. auto license/
registration information in California) and other forms of "monitoring", including
blatant attempts by paid ADL agents to discredit an American-Arab
organization by trying to distribute Nazi propaganda.  Furthermore,
you attempt to rationalize this through crude stereotyping by pointing
to the WTC bombing, in which Arab-Americans had no involvement.

On the other hand, you publish this excerpt, which seems to rail
against notions of a racial (Jewish, in this case) conspiracy and
stereotypes.

If you really aren't the hypocrite you appear to be, please explain
yourself.


       Let's try that again:  Why was the BATF concerned about surprise
when they intended to serve the warrant by knocking on the door?  The
BATF appears to be inconsistant in their own description of events.

       And in any case, how does one mount an ambush if one isn't
"on alert?"

       So, were the BATF fired on before or after they left the trailers
to knock on the door to serve the warrant?  Every description I've
heard indicates the BATF did not hang around in the trailers once
they decided to open them up.

       For that matter, if they expect peaceful citizens, why come in live-
stock trailers to being with?

       Ok, just to make sure we've got this straight:  You consider
armed troops in disguised vehicles and multiple helicopters to be
used to serve search warrants on peaceful citizens.  (And just so
we don't have one of those entertaining shifts, *you* described them
as the BATF expecting them to be, peaceful.)

       I don't see how past abuses excuse present ones.  Hell, you're
not even discussing the same government.


Saying "hopefully the effect of policy X will be Y" is *much* different
from saying "hopefully if there is any effect of policy X it will be Y."
Here you've made both statements.
If the former describes a reasonably-likely outcome of policy X, then
perhaps policy X is worthy of consideration - but the latter statement
is not something to base policy decisions on!

According to groups like the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence (formerly
the National Coalition to Ban Handguns - interesting name change, don't you
think?) who include murder and suicide by firearms in the "leading causes of
unintentional death) figures but *don't* include murder and suicide by other
means as causes of unintentional death.  Can't you see past the bullshit?

Certainly accidental deaths by any cause are serious things - but the
anti-gun groups insist over and over again that accidental death by
firearms is a *stastically serious problem*, and even if you don't use
these deaths as a justification for gun control, these groups do.  I'm
sorry if I jumped to conclusions about your reason for mentioning
accidental deaths due to firearms being something that warranted concern,
but in light of your statement that you are a staunch supporter of gun
control measures, I think the conclusion was a reasonable one.
The fact remains that tragic though individual accidental gun deaths may
be, they are *not* a serious problem statistically speaking.

Sorry if it wasn't clear to me.  I thought you were waffling on your view
of buyback programs with the talk of symbolic offerings and hopefully
preventing accidents and heat-of-passion shootings.  I have to disagree on
all these counts; I can't understand how a buying guns from people who
aren't intending to misuse them (obviously those who want to use guns to
commit crimes aren't going to turn them in) could be construed as a
positive way for police to respond to "interpersonal violence."

What, the people who publish figures saying that as many children commit
suicide by HANDGUNS ALONE each year as the FBI says commit suicide by ALL
METHODS per year?  Who do you think I should believe?  The people who call
everyone up to age 24 "children" when they're screaming about the "carnage
of our nation's children" being caused by handguns?

Ah, yes, the agency that considers accidental shootings of children to be
such a statistical problem that a stated objective in the Healthy People
2000 document is to "enact laws in 50 states requiring manufacturers of
handguns to make the handguns more difficult to fire, minimizing the
likelihood of accidental or intentional dscharge by children?"  The
agency that funded the "study" of DC which pronounced that the DC gun ban
had saved X lives (yes, they actually gave us a number) on the basis of
a look at the *number* of shootings rather than the *rate* of shootings?
It wasn't their fault that the population of DC dropped in their "post law"
period...

Okay, I'll concede I no longer have the numbers I once read on these.  I'll
retract my dispute of your numbers.  However, I would be greatly interested
in seeing how CPHV and CDC came up with these numbers.

What's this got to do with anything?  Hell, when *I* was in elementary
school I came home to an empty house with guns in it.  Why is this a
problem?  I didn't touch the guns - I had been taught not to.  I had also
been taught not to mess with the gasoline in the garage, the fuse box, the
car, the knives, the oven, and the tools.  The problem is not the guns,
it's the parents!!!

And what are these states doing with the kids they find with guns?
NOTHING.  No criminal prosecution, no expulsion, in most cases not even
suspension.  They take the gun, slap the kids on the wrist, say "ain't it
awful," and go on as if everything's back to normal.  What's wrong with
this picture?

I don't think Koresh was the Messiah, either... but isn't it obvious that
if he believed the forces of evil were come to destroy him, then he
believed the children were much safer inside the compound?  I didn't say
he was sane... just that he behaved in a pretty rational manner given what
he thought was going on.  He thought he had them in the one place where
harm *wouldn't* come to them.

Let's see *you* try to find the exits, unbarricade them, and flee a fire
when you've been kept awake for most of 50 days by loudspeakers and subjected
to six hours of tanks knocking in your walls and tear gas assault.


Hypostasis

[I've explained it here before.  If you want the full document, ask me by mail
--Rex]

   "Questions arise as we begin to think about LOGOS and what His inner
consciousness was composed of. We need to clarify the two natures of Christ
briefly.  The divine nature, which has existed eternally, did not undertake any
essential changes during the incarnation which would cause a conflict with the
attributes of God, the foremost of these being His immutability.  This would
mean that it remained impassable, that is, incapable of suffering and death,
free from ignorance and insusceptible to weakness and temptation.  In the realm
of the divine nature it is better to say that the Son of God became that which
was not absolute-and in Himself.  The result of the incarnation was that the
divine LOGOS could be ignorant and weak, could be tempted and suffer and die,
not in His divine nature, but by the derivation of His possession of a human
nature.
     This would mean that both the properties of the divine nature and the
human nature are properties of the person, and therefore ascribed to the
person. By this reason we can say that the person can be omnipotent,
omniscient, and omnipresent, yet at the same time be also a man of limited
power, knowledge, a man of sorrows, subject to human wants and miseries.  There
is, however, no penetration of one nature into the other.  Deity can no more
share the imperfections of humanity than humanity can share in the essential
perfection of the Godhead.
     We are not to assume that there is a double personality due to the
possession of the double natures.  Christ's human nature is impersonal, in that
it attains self-consciousness and self-determination in the personality of the
God-man.  We must now differentiate between the person and the nature of the
Man. Nature is defined:

"the distinguishing qualities or properties of something; the fundamental
character, disposition or temperament of a living being, innate and
unchangeable."

     Nature is then, in essence, the substance possessed in common, in as such
the Trinity have one nature.  There is also a common nature of mankind.
Personality, on the other hand, is the separate subsistence of nature, with the
power of consciousness and will.  It is for this reason that the human nature
of Christ has not, nor ever had, a separate subsistence, that it is impersonal.
 LOGOS, the God-man, represents the principle of personality.  It is equally
important to see that self-consciousness and self-determination do not, as
such, belong to the nature.  It is for this reason that we can justifiably say
that Jesus did not have two consciousness or two wills, but rather one.  It is
theanthropic, an activity of the one personality which unites in itself the
human and the divine natures, being that neither the consciousness nor the will
are simply human or simply divine."

[The quotation given above is not identified, and it's not entirely
clear to me what position Loren is taking on it.  Just for clarity,
let me note that the view expressed in it is one of the classic
Christological heresies -- monothelitism.  That's the position that
Christ's two natures were not complete, in that there was only one
will.  In most cases (which I think includes this example), it was the
human will that was regarded as missing.

Normally people who talk about Christ's human nature as being
"impersonal" mean it in a somewhat more abstract sense.  That is, they
are using "person" as hypostatis, not in the usual English sense of
personality.  In this use, the doctrine is called "anhypostasia".
Personally I think anhypostasia is just a more sophisticated way of
denying that the Logos took on humanity fully.  However it has never
been formally ruled a heresy, and in fact has been held by influential
theologians both ancient and modern (e.g. Athanasius).  But the
quotation above appears to be going farther than even Athanasius went,
into the realm of the overtly heretical.


Hey Dan,
Some potentially cool story stuff here... Do share the details.
*I* never get a break, probably most of us don't either, so please,
enlighten and enliven, and let us live vicariously.

Waitin' for that story...


You don't mention your riding area.  If you're in the Eastern part
of Ontario Canada, I may be able to help.  I love 1 day runs and
more.  More info needed.


Pardon me? Your ignorance cramps my conversation. Although the administrative
mechanism was a strictly centralized one, the Ottoman Empire 'was a classical
example of a pluralist social order.' The 'millet system' was the mechanism
which shaped the social order of the multi-national Ottoman Empire and stood
behind its continuity. As a matter of fact, because Islamic principles
were in force in the Ottoman Empire, it was natural to use religious
criteria to differentiate among the various communities which constituted
the Empire. The 'millet' system began to be based on ethnicity in the
19th century under the influence of nationalism. Sousa writes of the
existence of thirteen communities in the Ottoman Empire in addition to
the Muslim 'millet' in 1914. These were: (1) Greeks attached to the
Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul; (2) Catholics or Latins who were
remnants of Genoese and Venetian merchants; (3) Gregorian Armenians
attached to a Patriarchate in Istanbul; (4) Catholic Armenians; (5) Syrian
Catholics attached to a Patriarchate in Mardin; (6) Chaldean Catholics
attached to a Patriarchate in Mosul; (7) Syrian Jacobites attached to a
Patriarchate in Mardin; (8) Protestants; (9) Melchites attached to a
Patriarchate in Damascus; (10) Hebrews of two rites; (11) Bulgarian
Catholics attached to the Bulgarian Exarch; (12) Maronites; and (13)
Nestorians.[1] Scholars who studied the pluralistic social structure
outlined briefly above, concluded that the social order of the Ottoman
Empire fit the framework of the 'Mosaics Theory.'[2]

[1] N. Sousa, "The Capitulatory Regime of Turkey, its History, Origin and
    Nature," (Baltimore, 1933).
[2] C. S. Coon, Caravan: "The Story of the Middle East," (New York, 1951),
    p. 162 and H. A. R. Gibb/H. Bowen, "Islamic Society and the West: A
    Study of the Impact of Western Civilization on Moslem Culture in the
    Near East," (Oxford, 1951).

Serdar Argic


: I have the following problem on X11R5 servers.
:
: When a window of my is obscured by a pop up window which has
: the Save Under attribute set, the subwindows of my window are not restored.
: Normally, the subwindows are redrawn when the parent window gets an expose
: event, but because the save under attribute is used for the pop up window
: that obscured my window, no expose event is sent.

We had the same problem and on most of our machines it works if we use
Backing Store instead of Save under.

Marcus


Thanks for all the recommendations. I have decide to ignore the service
indicators and do oil change myself every 3000 miles.

Thanks again for all the responses.


Judging by your .sig you are trying to make some kind of game cartridge.
Information of how to build an EEPROM cartidge for the vectrex is available
via anonymous ftp at 'csus.edu'.

Since you've chosen the 27C512 you are probably trying to make a 'multicart'.
To do this simply:
1. Load the game images into the EEPROM at $2000, $4000, etc. (Your EEPROM
burner software may allow this or you will have to assemble the images into
one file yourself with suitable gaps.)
2. Wire up the cartridge with the lower address bits going to the game
console, and the high bits going to switches to choose between games.

To directly answer your question above, the pin that 'kicks up the address'
is simply another address line.


Colonics were a health fad of the 19th century, which persists to this day.
Except for certain medical conditions, there is no reason to do this.
Certainly no normal person should do this.


I have a Leading edge 486sx25 with 4 Megs of RAM that are in the forms of
4 1 meg SIMMS.  Each SIMM has *two* chips on it. They are manufactured by
Samsung and are 80ns.  A salesman told me that the leading edge CPC-2300
motherboard has the extra parity bit built in and reccomemnded I use MAC
SIMMS. I tried using 4 Megs pulled out of a Mac SI (these are 8 chip
SIMMS), but I got too many windows protection faults and parity errors. I
guess I should use the same SIMMS as the ones I have, but I can't find
any!! Most of the places I have called carry only 3 8 or 9 chip SIMMS.

So if anybody knows where I can get memory that is good with my computer
or if you have any suggestions at all, please let me know.

Any help is truly appreciated.

-Eric


From article <1r3jl5$igh@function.mps.ohio-state.edu>, by nevai@mps.ohio-state.edu (Paul Nevai):

Well, I don't exaclty know what _should_ be done, but what I do is
keep my cpu on and turn my monitor off when not in use.  I do this as
much for easing power consumption as anything though.  Turning off the
monitor when not in use has the advantage of requiring less RAM than
a screen saver (but it requires more of MY memory to remember to turn
it off... pretty easy to remember to turn it on though :-)

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Instrument Approach Procedures Automation             DOT/FAA/AMI-230


ordered 2 fork seals and 2 guide bushings from CA for my FZR.  two weeks later
get 2 fork seals and 1 guide bushing.  call CA and ask for remaining *guide*
bushing and order 2 *slide* bushings (explain on the phone which bushings are
which; the guy seemed to understand).  two weeks later get 2 guide bushings.

*sigh*

how much you wanna bet that once i get ALL the parts and take the fork apart
that some parts won't fit?


Yep! Sounds good to me. suggestion: sci.electronics.art ?

Best regards,


:

When McManus says, "We have the world's best medical care," I can hardly
believe he's referring to a system:

1.  That costs us 14 percent of our GDP, while there isn't a
    single other country in the industrialized world that spends more than
    10 percent.

2.  That leaves 37 million of us with no coverage, even though all
    the other systems in the industrialized world cover virtually everyone.

3.  Yet, Americans rank near the bottom of the list in terms of life
    expectancy, childhood immunization rate, infant mortality, and many
    preventable diseases.

4.  We pay, on average, about $1000 each for MRIs.  (To put that in
    perspective, they cost $177 in Japan.)

5.  The average US company spends over 2500 dollars a year per employee on
    health benefits.  Seven hundred to 1500 is the range just about everywhere
    else.

How can anyone say that such a system is the best in the world?  The only
thing the USA health care system is good at is showering well-insured patients
with a champagne treatment of care and outrageously overcharging for it.  And
the "private" system of insurers and paperwork is so bloated and inefficient
that it itself sucks up over 100 billion dollars a year in money from every
other sector of society - individuals, government, and industry.

Of the < 800 billion dollars Americans threw into the bottomless pit of health
care costs last year, the Consumer's Union estimated that at least 200 billion
was thrown away on overpriced, useless, and even downright harmful tests and
procedures, and the most bureaucratic, regulated insurance system in the world.

There are more than 1200 different private insurers in the USA.  But did the
"private competition" stimulate more efficient paperwork?  Ask any doctor
who's had to hire a full-time clerk to deal with it all!

The competition among hospitals is driving costs UP, not down.  The
competition among hospitals for both doctors and patients has encouraged the
hospitals to traffic in expensive superfluous equipment.  Spending millions on
expensive machines of dubious value that spend 80 percent of the day idle
isn't my idea of the world's best health care system.

Competition among specialists is driving them to perform dangerous and
expensive procedures where they are very marginally helpful.  I'm especially
thinking of heart surgery and some women's surgeries like hysterectomy and
Cesarean section.  Sound like the world's best health care system?

Ever notice how, every time someone tries to bring about some real change in
health care, the Libbies start bashing Canada's system?  First of all, Hillary
Clinton is not advocating another Canadian system.  I think that's been made
abundantly clear in the news for the last couple of months.  Where did John F.
McManus get that idea, anyway?

Let's say you're a Canadian living in a small town near the USA border.  Your
child needs a complicated procedure only available in city hospitals.  The
nearest Canadian cities are 6 hours west and 20 hours east, and there's an
American city one hour south.  Which way are you going to go?  Is it because
the American system is the "best" in the world, or just for convenience?

It still amazes me that people can't seem to see more than just black and
white on health care reform.  There are a million different ways we ould
restructure the system.  It's not just a choice between total government
control and total private control.  I wish the people screaming "socialized
medicine" every time soemone wants to change the current syste would INFORM
THEMSELVES on health care issues.

The current system sucks.  I want to keep providers private but that doesn't
change the fact that we will never be able to deal with the deficit if we
don't REFORM THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.  Purely private health care without any
government intervention doesn't work.  Hillary Clinton is not thinking of
nationalizing providers or evern insurers.  How can you scream "socialized
medicine" at her programs?  Don't you even know what you're talking about?

Ever see Clinton's graphs of projected deficit versus year for the rest of the
decade?  Notice how the line falls, then starts increasing?  Why?  I'll give
you one wild guess as to which component of spending will overwhelm us if we
don't do something about it.

PEOPE JUST DOESN'T GET IT.  The current health care system is a cancer which is
killing our economic well-being.  Costs are still rising 10 percent a year
even as Americans by the tens of millions go without, or are forced into
managed-care programs, which are certainly pretty socialized already if you
ask me.

A couple of months ago I posted a message asking any Hillary-bashers to please
come forward and present (no gimmicks, straight talk) just how THEY would set
about keeping costs down.  I didn't get a single answer.

The only thing I keep hearing from Libbie organizations are press releases
filled with evasive platitudes like "give health care back to the people."
Just do you expect to do that without serious reforms?  What is it about the
current system that you would change and how would that help?

How can anyone read the news, live under our system, and NOT see these faults?
How can we deal with the deficit, our cities, our educational system, our
infrastrucure, AIDS, modernizing our industry, etc. if we don't quit throwing
away money which could be used to SOLVE those problems?

America needs health care reform NOW.  Don't just sit there and Hillary-bash,
inform yourself!

Jim Reynolds


I don't know much about computers, so please bear with me. Here's my question:

CONTEXT: I use a package called SLIP on my home computer to connect to the
         university mainframe (an IBM 3090 running VMS/MVS), and log on to my
         account. When I installed SLIP on my computer, I had to configure it
         for my modem (14.4 kbs Etronics internal) and had to supply the phone
         number to dial to reach the mainframe. The way it works now is that
         I type "telnet uicvm" or "tn3270 uicvm" (either will work) at the DOS
         prompt. UICVM is the node name of the mainframe. The program then
         dials the mainframe, establishes a protocol, and gives me the logon
         screen. "TELNET" and "TN3270" are the names of batch files in my SLIP
         directory. I have been told that a kermit protocol is used for the
         session.

PROBLEM: I would like to be able to do all this under Windows 3.1 because I
         hardly ever use DOS directly. SLIP will not run under Windows. I
         talked to the people at our computer center, and they suggested that
         I use a packet driver called WINPKT.COM with SLIP. They gave me
         instructions on how to load it before I start Windows, and how to
         modify the TCPSTART and TCPSTOP batch files (in the SLIP directory)
         to ensure that it would work. I did all that and I could run SLIP
         from Windows, but there were other problems. For one thing, SLIP
         would not hang up the phone when I exited. I had to run my communi-
         cations program to hang up the phone or reboot the computer when
         that didn't work. For another, there were too many errors. It often
         took me 3-4 tries to connect to the mainframe. Our computer center
         does not support SLIP under Windows, so I can't keep going back to
         them with more questions.

QUESTION: Is there some other SHAREWARE package that will run under Windows
         and do what SLIP is supposed to do? I need a package that is not too
         expensive, which is why I am looking for shareware. I have heard that
         there are regular commercial packages that do all this, but they cost
         hundreds of dollars. These are the main requirements:

         1. Must be able to run under Windows 3.1
         2. Must allow VT100 and IBM TN3270 terminal emulation
         3. Must allow ftp file transfers, since that's the only kind the
            mainframe allows. No Y-modem or Z-modem etc. I believe the ftp
            transfers are made through a kermit protocol, but I'm hazy about
            that.

         A subsidiary feature (that would be nice to have) if it's a true
         Windows program (rather than a DOS program modified to run under
         Windows) is the ability to run the session in a window concurrently
         with other applications and to cut and paste between the telnet
         session and other applications.

Any information received is appreciated.


Ditto.

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages).
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5
 million Muslim people)

You have set up straw horses and knocked them down. I'm not impressed.
Let us ask Armenian scholars - shall we?

Source: K. S. Papazian, "Patriotism Perverted," Baikar Press, Boston, 1934.

pp. 17-18.

"It seems that terrorism against their own co-nationals has been a prominent
 part of the revolutionary activities of the Dashnag leaders of the Caucasus.
 Organized to fight the Turks, these chieftains have been more successful
 in their fight against their Armenian opponents in Turkey, and the Caucasus,
 very often defenseless and innocent."

p. 25.

"We were defeated".

p. 38.

"The fact remains, however, that the leaders of the Turkish Armenian section
 of the Dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the
 Turkish cause when the Turks entered the war...and a call was sent for
 Armenian volunteers to fight the Turks on the Caucasian front."

p. 38.

"Thousands of Armenians from all over the world, flocked to the standards of
 such famous fighters as Antranik, Kery, Dro, etc. The Armenian volunteer
 regiments rendered valuable service to the Russian Army in the years of
 1914-15-16."

By the way, here is the entire paragraph.

"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
 ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
 of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
 Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
 into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
 and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
 completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
 found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
 into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
 length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
 Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
 plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
 Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
 howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
 scattered bones of the dead."

                             Ohanus Appressian
                            "Men Are Like That"
                                   p. 202.

Now wait, there is more.

1) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of Van.[1,2,3,4,5]
2) Armenians did slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis.[1,2,3,4]
3) Armenians did slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum.[1,2,3,4]
4) Armenians did slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir.[1,2,3,4]
5) Armenians did slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz.[1,2,3,4]
6) Armenians did slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas.[1,2,3,4]
7) Armenians did slaughter the entire Muslim population of the x-Soviet
   Armenia.[1,2,3,4]
8)....

[1] McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman
                   Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York
                   University Press, New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

[2] Karpat, K., "Ottoman Population," The University of Wisconsin Press,
                 1985.

[3] Hovannisian, R. G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
                         University of California Press (Berkeley and
                         Los Angeles), 1967, pp. 13, 37.

[4] Shaw, S. J., 'On Armenian collaboration with invading Russian armies
                  in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey
                  (Volume II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of
                  Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)." (London, Cambridge University
                  Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

[5] "Gochnak" (Armenian newspaper published in the United States), May 24,
              1915.

Serdar Argic


I am running Windows 3.1 on a 386SX-16 MHZ with Five Megs of Memory.

The motherboard came with one meg, and I added the four megs this past
weekend.  They were 1X9 70 Simms.

I had installed in the application menu MS-DOS command PARK.  Up till
today, it parked the disk from the application menu without any problem.

When attempting to park the heads today, I received the following
message:

STOP        This application has violated system integrity due to
            an invalid general protection fault and will be
            terminated.

What does this message mean?

Thanks,

--
David De Trolio                         (detrolio@andromeda.rutgers.edu)


For Sale:
        DOS 4.01, with original manuals, box, and
        either 5.25" or 3.5" disks (full version,
	NOT OEM).

	** $15.00 (including all shipping charges) **
	** please respond! bitzm@columbia.dsu.edu  **


Firstly, an aside:

I agree that the weakness exists, but I have a lot of trouble
believing that it represents a difficulty in real life. Given:

1. the purpose of the one-time pad is to give unbreakable security,
and the expense of key distribution etc., imply that the clients
really do want that level of security

2. These same people want to keep P a secret

I find it hard to believe that Eve might happen to have a copy of P
lying around.

(I am aware that the same argument applies to Eve knowing even a small
part of the message, but Eve must know EXACTLY where (which bytes) in
C her known susequence starts, or the result will be garbled. I find
this at least as surprising.)

Back to the question:

If I had the resources to use a one-time-pad for such transmissions, I
would also append a Message Authentication Code to the message, using up
the next bits of the one-time-pad as the key perhaps. Your original
question basically asked whether there was any way to authenticate the
message with the same degree of security as the Pad itself provided,
and I don't know the answer. However, I would propose the following
for discussion.

Alice and Bob have an arbitrary number of secret, random bits to
share, which Eve doesn't know. She finds them out (effectively) by
knowing some P and the corresponding C. It is the fact that they
CORRESPOND that causes the problem. If a message authentication code was to
be created using some one-time-pad operation such that Eve could not
know which parts of the MAC were affected by which parts of the input,
she would be unable to forge a MAC to correspond.

What is required is a non-linear combiner of parts of the message.
(Non-linear so that simply xoring or subtracting or whatever doesn't
have exactly the same effect).

Now, at the end of the encrypted message C, Alice appends a n-bit MAC
computed as follows (S2 means the next full chunk of the one time pad):
  1. compute C2 = P xor S2, and pad to an n-bit boundary with more of S
  2. break C2 into n-bit chunks
  3. set MAC to 0 (initialisation vector)
  4. for i in each chunk sequentially
       set MAC = MAC NLOP C2[i]

At the end of this process MAC is the Message Authentication Code.

(Bob verifies the MAC in the obvious manner; he recovers the
plaintext P, then uses some more of his pad to reproduce the MAC in
the same manner.)

NLOP is the non-linear operator, and there is the rub. The simplest
non-linear operator I can think of is an S-box; that is, have a fixed
(even published) permutation of the n-bit integers, an indexable table
called Sbox, and use:
  x NLOP y = x xor Sbox[y].

Practically speaking, I think this solves your problem, as Eve never
sees the intermediate output C2, and hence can't deduce S2 or perform any valid
substitution on it.

Also practically speaking, you want the MAC to be fairly large, say 32
bits, but you might not want a 4 gigabyte (say) S-box, so you might
work on 4 byte-sized S-boxes, but I think that is an irrelevant detail
for the discussion at hand.

Who will be first to point out my errors, or give me a pointer to some
literature?


just out of curiosity, how is this "dog clutch" any different from a synchro
transmission.  What you described SOUNDS the same to me.  In fact, what little
i've studied on trannies, the instructor referred to the synchros as "dogs"
and said they were synonymous.  The gears are always meshed in a synchronized
gearbox, and you slip the synchro gears back and forth by shifting. Or at least,
that is what i was taught.  Explain, por favour?


There's always the old switcheroo.

My brother works at a dialysis clinic.  They were interviewing
candidates for a technician job (mainly electronics tech), and a
urine screen was part of the interview.  The bathroom was across
the hall from a lab.  One candidate managed to switch his urine
sample with one he grabbed from the lab.  (No one was in it at
the time.)


(Detroit, April 21)

Most knowledgable observers once again watched in shock as the Detroit Red
Wings again beat the best goaltender in the world six times en route to
another easy victory over the best team in the NHL.

For the best goaltender in the world, Felix Potvin, six was a bad number as
he surrendered six goals and collected six minutes in penalties in reponse
to the goon tactics employed by the inferior Red Wings team.

								Alan


Has anyone read this important book?  If so, what are your feelings about it?

Frank


The same could be said for many other goverment agencies, but big budgets,
large staffs, and long lead time haven't made many of them into models of
effectiveness.

The fact is that those of us outside the inner circles have only James
Bamford's word that the people at the NSA use those legendary masses of
computers for anything other than reading netnews, like many of us.

The NSA *doesn't* have an impressive record of accomplishments, at least
not a public record.


Hi
  I am thinking of upgrading to the Beta Version of Windows NT on a 486SX 25Mhz
213Mb Hard disc. Can someone please give me there opion on such a setup for
running NT and is the Operating System likely to be better than Windows or
Unix's.


[...]

Aw, c'mon.  The serious overreaction ought to be worth a couple of points,
not to mention the bit condemning everthing the flamee might ever say.
The non sequitur about guns and helmets is just the proper flourish.

I personally am of the opinion that there are two types of good flames.
The first does trade ``quality,'' in the sense you mention, for heat.
This has a certain surprise value and if done correctly, which I
contend was done above, is reasonably entertaining.  While it is true that
the flame I posted does not mention anyone's habitual velocity, friends,
dinner, or entertainment, it says what it needs to with the appropriate
flair and it is short.  The weakness of this type of flame is actually
that it can easily be taken too far, at which point it becomes trite and
boring.  (Witness the Infante thread recently....)

The other type of flame, which you seem to be glorifying above, has
a few weaknesses as well.  In the first place, it can get verbose and
tedious in the extreme, particularly if the reader does not already strongly
identify with one side or the other.  In the second, discussing someone's
personal qualities, habits, and so forth can quickly become libelous.
(Or is that slanderous?  I can never remember the difference.)  This leads
to a proliferation of lawyers, which is widely regarded as a BAD THING.
Finally, introducing polysyllabic words is problematic.  I can't haul my
big dic. around on my bike, and it would be bad form to use a word which
actually turned out to have a meaning, especially one which ran counter
to my use and flamage in general.

In summary, Blaine, your score for that flame is incorrect.  While it may
be the wunder-flame, the weaknesses you point out are not necessarily
weaknesses, and your suggested corrections are not always useful nor
applicable.  You also probably couldn't outrun a tennis ball with a
flatulent dog stapled to your posterior, and I'll bet you and your
motorcycle lean to the outside while turning.  The same goes for anyone
who looks like you, too.

-----
Tommy McGuire
mcguire@cs.utexas.edu
mcguire@austin.ibm.com


New plotters, 2 of 'em, straight out of the box, but docs have all been
lost...

make offer, COD shipping...


If that "culture" referred to is Israeli, being anti-zionist can be seen
as a complete denial of that entity's right to exist and its "legitimacy".
Just as saying that Islam has *no right* to establish and implement a
"state" that includes any non-muslims, both are *absolute*, one-dimensional
views of that culture with regard to the issue of "state".

If that were the case, one would expect a few of that culture's positives
to be discussed with regard to the issue at hand. Since the issue *centers*
on Israeli culture, I have yet to hear of *any* positives of that culture
in this discussion.

I agree with you. But I also feel that when a culture feels it is confronted
by another group that wishes to see that culture "disassembled", the first
culture has little choice but to *try* to secure its "survival" as well as
maintain its moral center. Since the culture is not about to turn away
from *either* the matter of its survival or the valuing of its moral
principles, it has the virtually impossible job of "balancing".

To discuss Israel's faults and "crimes" without *any* recognition of this
circumstance and *reality* it faces is a conscious decision based on the
discussant's political biases, NOT on an honest and empathetically open
understanding of the situation. The same applies to those who attempt to
paint the Palestinian movement as "all bad" and dispense with considerations
of the *reality* facing them.

You beg the question by centering on the symptoms while the issue
of "self-hating" addresses the motivations. I certainly feel that
anyone who expends so much effort inflating, distorting and robbing
human context from aspects of his/her own culture is reflecting
a degree of dislike for it. Since bits of that culture are bound,
due to his/her upbringing, to be a part of him/her, a bit of self-
dislike seems likely to be mixed in somewhere.

As you well know, this process of *blaming the other* for the morally
questionable actions one side is forced (by the "other", of course) to
take is thoroughly practiced by **both sides**. If you are only hearing
the pro-Israeli crowd's self-supporting arguments, that may be due to
the fact that you are not listening for anything else. *I* certainly
hear the similarly distorting pro-Palestinian/pro-Arab element in
*this* newsgroup (as well as in soc.culture.arabic).

I agree, agree, agree, agree.

However, in my response to the initial discussion above between Davidsson
and those opposing his presentations, I saw Davidsson carefully putting
academic frills around a blatantly one-sided series of I-hate/dislike-
"them", yesIdo,yesIdo,yesIdo. I did *not* find the approach of those
opposing Davidsson to be centered *at all* on a denigration and denial
of the "other side".

I certainly do wonder if the degree to which Davidsson's views on the
Middle East have distorted is connected to his dislike and rejection
of his jewish lineage. Having said this, however, I agree with you that
this constant accusing others of being "self-hating" jews seems
pointless. It is not worse a label than is "why, you're on their side",
except to perhaps imply a certain degree of overly enthusiastic
biasedness.

Tim


Presumably the B-D did not mount a continuous state of alert with gunmen
ready to fire on people who casually walked up to ring the doorbell.

Once inside the building the BATF would have been in control. Trained
police officers are a match to any bunch of Bozos playing at soldiers.

Not a smart move. Unless meant to be part of the surprize cover. Even so
the narrow opening of the trucks simply was not a good idea. A side opening
truck would have been much better, more like a covered waggon.

Sounds just about right to me. Its the minimum amount of force that I
would consider necessary to serve a warrant on the talk.politics.guns
annual dinner.

Michael Hesseltine ordered the use of over 5000 crack troops including
members of the parachute regiment to remove approx 250 hippy peace
protestors on a site where they wanted to install cruise missiles. He
even turned up in a flack jacket to monitor the proceedings. Just about the
most dangerous tool the women possesed was a tin opener. That single
action probably cost him the position as Prime Minister. One of the elders
of my church got arrested in that heroic action by the forces of Toryism.
Hesseltine ever after was something of a national joke.


:
: >A friend of mine called me on the phone and told me he was wathcing CNN
: >and saw a report that the ruling prohibiting AMD from selling their i486
: >clones has been thrown out, making it legal for AMD to ship in the US.
:
: Yep, this was on the news.  Great news for consumers.  Bad news
: for Intel.

Their stock dropped quite a chunk with the announcement.

--


(Dear Moderator: Would you add this to the BCC faq?)

In case there are any ex-members of the "Boston Church of Christ"
looking for a support organization, here's the number of "BostonEX" in
Burlington, MA: 617-272-1955.

--------

s.r.c readers in New England may be interested in seeing a series of
news reports about the BCC in the 6 pm nightly news on Channel 5
(WCVB, Boston), for the next few days (starting Wed, 5/19).


Other than getting a 32-bit clean ROM, what other features would a IIci
ROM in a IIx provide, if any?


Lovely arguments.  But do we write about historical ownership of any
place - Palestine, Pakistan, Cyprus, Aegean Islands (and the oil that
may lie beneath them), whatever - for any reason other than
justification for stomping others?

DOES IT TRULY MATTER whose ancestor lived where 20, 200, or 2000 years
ago?  More than how you treat the land and each other?

Who is wise enough to decree that a person's right to life, liberty
and pursuit of happiness in a particular place depends on accidents of
birth?  Who can even be sure about the precise tracks of the sperm
that birthed the people we wish to despise?

IMHO, the American Indians have it right.  We belong to the earth, it
does not belong to us.  Failure to understand that is a good way to
cause lossage all the way around.  My guess is that once we trash our
environment sufficiently we shall die along with it - the baby eating
and killing its mother, then dying for lack of milk.

Death and disease do not respect national boundaries, not as toxins,
disease vectors,  lost farmland/wetlands/forest cover/water supplies,
nor any other way.  When we fight over which national group owns which
piece of turf, we are merely contending for the best vantage point
from which to kill others, "our" land and eventually ourselves.

That is something of which to be proud.  Very proud.  Makes me glad to
be human.

I'm not mindlessly rejecting all nationalism.  Maybe it's fair to ask
whether a recent immigrant deserves a share of the infrastructure that
all _my_ ancestors (hah!) labored to produce.  But it's an artificial
distinction: is the recent immigrant, even a refugee, less likely to
contribute to the next generation's legacy than anyone else?  [In
history the reverse is often the case: recent immigrants strive
hardest.  If nothing else, they fill open eco(l/n)ogic niches.]

Then again, my tribe is infinitely better than your tribe, so I can
understand you all have nothing but plot to knock me off.  While I, of
course, will make sure it doesn't happen, even if I must shoot Muslim
infants (or bash Jewish ones against the walls of schoolhouses) to do
so.  That'll prove my moral superiority, by golly, as well as the
rightness of my cause.

Clearly, there is no higher purpose in life than killing others
because they are not like you.  I would never get in the way of such
fun.

Let's see:
	soc.culture.turkish - Why don't you Turks go back to Lake
		Baikal where you came from, and leave the land to the
		Greeks, who stole it fair and square from the
		Scythians?
	soc.culture.pakistan - Why don't you guys redistribute
		yourselves over India, as God meant for you to do?
	soc.culture.jewish, soc.culture.arabic - we stick together,
		fight together, die together.  We are brothers, and
		inseparable.
	talk.politics.mideast - oh well, had to be there.

Oded
[Planning on being a Scythian irredentist, as soon as I finish my
present assignment.]

P.S.:	I can't get a semi-decent death threat anymore?


:   I am curious about knowing which commericial cars today
: have v engines.

: V4 - I don't know of any.
: V6 - Legend, MR3? MR6?
: V8 - Don't know of any.
: V12 - Jaguar XJS

:  Please add to the list.


At all times in human history, people have killed and stolen from one
another.  If you can find an example of where this hasn't happened in
history, then you have discovered a new phenomenon in nature.

It is pointless asking whether people "should" do this;
they DO do this.  It has just evolved that way.  Humans have evolved to
have this characteristivc.  You can debate whether this should be
particular matter should be left up to the individual or not, but it is
the nature of humans to kill and steal from others and you will not find
a single counterexample (of a society without these types) in nature.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find a better argument than that's the way it has always been.
Child mortality has always been, yet we find it in our hearts to have
made an attempt to change that.


I disagree.  In the end, the *individual* is responsible for his/her own
irrationality.  The individual's belief in some dogmatic religion is a
symptom of that irrationality.

Atheists and agnostics, I would imagine, but yes, that was my point.  An
atheist would theoretically be just as ill-equipped to study the philosophy
of religion as a Christian, and yet there is a persistence of atheists
among the ranks of philosophers.  Therefore, the conflict between one's
religious beliefs (or lack thereof) and the ability to be a philosopher
must not be as great as you assert.  The fact that most philosophers may
be non-religious was a secondary point.

As opposed to science practiced by theists?  Be careful here.

Science does have a built-in defence against faith and dogma:
skepticism.  Unfortunately, it is not foolproof.  There is that
wonderful little creature known as the "theory."  Many of us believe in
the theory of evolution.  We have no absolute proof that this
theory is true, so why do we believe it?  Because it "makes more
sense than...?"  There is quite a bit of faith involved here.

Well, not ALL current beliefs are deficient, but basically I agree.

Ideally, this is true.  In reality, though, you have to acknowledge
that scientists are human.  Scientists have egos and biases.  Some
scientists assume a particular theory is true, refuse to admit the
flaws in that theory because of ego problems or whatever, and proceed
to spend their time and money trying to come up with absolute proof
for the theory.  Remember cold fusion?

Not really.  I agree that we spent far too much money on the Waco
crisis ($7,500,000 I believe), especially considering the outcome.
My point was that mass suicides in the U.S. are rare (Jonestown was
in Guyana, incidentally, although we footed the bill for the clean-up),
and the U.S. has far more important issues to address.  Compare the
number of U.S. citizens who have died in mass suicides with, say, the
number of U.S. soldiers who died during one week of the Vietnam War and
you will see my point.


Could anyone post the game summary for the Sabres-Bruins game.


an image of the moon has been caught in a weather satellite images of the earth.
it appears in both the 0430-1500UT ir and visual images of the earth.
the GIF images can be down loaded from vmd.cso.uiuc.edu and are named
CI043015.GIF and CV043015.GIF for the IR and visual images respectively.

pretty cool pictures;  in the ir it's saturated but in the visual image
details on the moon are viewable.

the moon is not in the 1400UT images.


It was Clint Malarchuk's neck cut by Uwe Krupp's skate.  I know it happened in
Buffalo, but I can't tell you against whom.

Krupp was defending an opposing attacker charging the net.

Malarchuk became the fourth goalie (behind Hasek, Puppa and Draper) after
suffering from Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.  He's been playing in San Diego
for former Sabre coach Rick Dudley.

Krupp is now playing for the Islanders after the LaFontaine/Turgeon trade.

What do I win?  =)


What version of WinFAX do you have?  The newest version (3.0) has an OCR
(Optical Character Recognition) built in... what this means is that it can
take a fax (ie, a letter) and convert it into ASCII so that one can edit
the document w/o re-typing it... However, I found that the OCR that comes
packaged with WINFAX does not work as well as OMNIpage Professional (also
by Delrina software)... So, once again, WinFAX ver. 3.0 has what you are
looking for... Good luck!


: Wasn't the shareware fee a "suggestion" by John?
: Is so then it's up to the individual to make the choice whether or not to
: honour it and part with money.  Personally if I was in his position I would
: do exactly the same thing, John has obviously put in lot of time and effort
: into xv and why shouldn't he receive some money for it.

: Just my pennies worth

: (Keep up the good work John)

Yeah I agree..I am very impressed by the kind of effort that has gone into
the lastest release...some people are just looking for excuses to gripe..
I personally feel that the work is worth much more that $25...after seeing
the kind of things people get paid for..


This makes perfect sense if you think about it.

Cheap food and cheap movies on the cheapest format.  You feel full, but
the "nutritional quality" just ain't there. :-)

  Feast a little...buy Beta!

Greg
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                         ED-Beta: Simply THE BEST!
"ED Beta is simply the best consumer videotape format available."
                                     --VIDEO Magazine, Nov. 1992, page 30.

"Manufacturers may have a point when they perceive the U.S. consumer
electronics market as unsophisticated."
                                     --VIDEOMAKER,  March 1993, page88


:
: (Why do ALL  postings from bnr seem to have bogus addresses?
: Both
: 	gstovall@crchh67.NoSubdomain.NoDomain
: and
: 	gstovall@bnr.com
: bounce....
:
: This makes it rather difficult to reply....)

They go through UUNET. This is often the problem - as UUNET often has
problems with return paths.

... deleted ...

: Oh, and most importantly, no amount of transmitted RF, short of a
: transmitter the size of small house, is likely to cause the equipment
: failures you describe. So you are looking at two different problems.

Yep.


Hi,

Could some kind soul please e-mail me a copy of the pinout for the serial
connector on an ImageWriter II printer?  We have one that we'd like to hook
up to a PC, and it seems that nobody sells the proper cables anymore.  No
problem -- I can make one, but I need to know the pinout first.

Thanks in advance.


	What's sort of interesting about this whole thread is just how much
it has in common with similar threads in groups dealing with other vendor's
hardware.  I currently deal basically with hardware from 3 vendors - Apple,
DEC, and SGI - and thus tend to monitor the groups about those vendor's
hardware.  Currently, it seems like SGI customers are pissed at SGI about
dropping support for the Personal Iris, DEC customers are pissed at DEC for
dropping MIPS support in favor of the new Alpha boxes, and Apple customers
seem to get pissed every time a new Mac is introduced that's faster and
cheaper than the one they just bought.  When I used to be a Sun customer
years ago, I remember people being pissed at Sun for leaving their 386
and 680x0 customers out in the cold when Sparc came along.

	What's really interesting is that from what I can tell, the MIS
folks in the basement with their ES/9000 don't seem to be pissed at IBM.
Why?  I have no idea.  Either IBM really does take care of their customers
better, or they just have their customers brainwashed better than the
smaller vendors do.


I am running System 7.1 on a Centris 610. I have not been able to setup my
printer yet because when I open Chooser, I get a blank screen. I do have all
kinds of print drivers but none shows up. I even do not get a port iconn
either. It is just one big BLANK screen.

Your help is very appreciated.
BTW I did rebuild the desktop but that did not help either.


       The BATF got sat on pretty early on.  After the initial shooting
was over, it pretty much become the FBI's show.  (Even that BATF guy
stopped showing up next to the speaker at the daily press conferences).


Let's save some bandwidth, skip the intermediate articles and go
straight to the Nazis and Hitler :-)

(we do have wall sockets, thank you, and they're better than yours)


or so days.
incident
You seem to make two points.  No one ultimately oversees the federal agencies
you mention, and since Koresh "apparently" has a different view point from your
Baptist upbringing, then he is not worthy of protection from religious
persecution.  As to being the Messiah, is not Christ within us all?

Must be comforting to belong to a government approved religion.

Baptists are a cult, two, BTW, under most of the definitions in the dictionary
of "cult".

Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com


Evolution of SCO newsgroups and Mailing Lists
              ---------------------------------------------

   Many readers enjoyed the opportunity to obtain and contribute useful
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   With the increasing demand for accessibility and for additional SCO
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   biz.sco.{opendesktop,general,announce} were newgrouped May 1, 1991 in
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   within the established usenet news hierarchy and adds the new "announce"
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   Subject to the USENET NEWS hierarchies carried by your upstream feed,
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        ---------                    -------------------------
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Does anyone know how to reset the service indicator of a BMW after changing
the oil yourself?

Also, I have about 3,000 miles on my 525i and so far only one of the five
yellow service indicators went out. That means I don't need oil service until
it reach approximatly 15,000 miles which doesn't make sense to me. Any idea?

PS of cause I did my first oil change at 1,200 miles


Here's something to add to the discussion:

Newsgroups: misc.activism.progressive
From: "James P. Reynolds" <jpr1@lehigh.edu>
Subject: When you're not using it, turn it off!
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 06:50:14 GMT
Lines: 53

Research has shown that the majority of the time that the United
States' 30 to 35 million personal computers are on, they are not
actively being used.  In addition, 30 to 40 percent are left running
at night and on weekends.

Computer equipment is now the fastest growing private-sector use
of electricity.  Computers alone are believed to account for five
percent of commercial electricity consumption, and may account for
ten percent by the year 2000.

If you are one of those who leave them on after you're done, it
would be a big environmental benefit if you would just TURN IT OFF
when you're not using it.  It only takes a second or two to do.

Also, the majority of the power your computer uses is not consumed
by the computer itself, but by the monitor.  If you can't turn the
computer off, then please just TURN OFF THE MONITOR.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has formed an alliance
with computer manufacturers to promote the introduction of energy-
efficient PCs that "power down" automatically when not being used
and thus reduce the air pollution caused by power generation.  These
new computers will save enough electricity to power both Vermont and
New Hampshire and save up to 1 billion U.S. dollars in annual
electricity bills.  Look for the special EPA "Energy Star" logo when
you buy computers.  They should be available in one to two years.

According to the EPA studies, the energy saved will prevent CO2
emissions of 20 million tons annually, the equivalent of five million
automobiles.  Also, 140,000 tons of SO2 and 75,000 tons of nitrogen
oxide emissions will be saved; these are the major pollutants
responsible for acid rain.

Please do your part ... be responsible.  If you're not using it,
then just TURN IT OFF.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Information herein is partially taken from the 1993 "Information
Please" Almanac, page 573, and the U.S. Envirnomental Protection
Agency's "Environmental News."

Please redistribute this message to every computer bulletin board,
network, memo system, etc. you can think of.  Archive it and post
it every so often if you can.  Let's get the word out to everyone.
We need to be responsible about the way we consume.


I recently bought a PLI 21mgbyte floptical drive, and I was very happy
with it until I tried to use it to format a 1.4 HD diskette. I put the
HD floppy in my Superdrive to check that the floptical had formatted it
correctly, and now my Superdrive refuses to recognize ANY floppy (it says
"this disk is unreadable" and asks if I want to format it) even original
systems floppies from Apple. Nor will it format the disks if I try to
("initialization failed!")  Strangely enough the floptical still reads
both the 21 MB and 1.4 HD disks, but I cant look at my 800k floppies, and
if I have a crash I'm screwed because the Floptical can't be used as a
start-up disk.  PLI has been unresponsive.  Any ideas? Has this happened
to anyone before? I was looking for an inexpensive storage solution, and
now I am looking at an expensive repair.  Help! respond to this thread, or
email mfeldman@acs.bu.edu


The good news is we just got two Sparc10's. The bad news is
that /dev/cgtwelve0 is apparently not supported in X11R4 or
X11R5. Does anyone know of a patch (and how I can obtain it)
to either X version that will enable us to use X11 on our
Sparc10's?


I am the original owner of the seats and the original poster.
I take VERY serious offence in your statement.
I see a lot of computers advertized on the net, and my friend just had been
releived of his machine = all the net-computer ads are for stolen computers?
Where did you learn logic?

As for the seats, they were replaced by a much harder (literally) Celica GTS
seats due to my back problem. That is why I had to reuse the MR2 brackets
and that's why the MR2 seats I sell are attached to Celica brackets.


Thanks for the letter, your comments helped some.

As to the last comment, I certainly realize that it was not intended to
sound that way.  I am still trying to understand *how* a spiritual being
colud truly be one and three at the same time.  All of the descriptions
of this are either Platonic or sound like special pleading (sort of,
"they appear to be three seperate beings in all ways, but really they are
one, trust me").

Neither of these is acceptible to me.

The fact is, so far the only descriptions of the trinity that makes any
*sense* to me are the modalistic ones, such as Modalistic Monarchianism
or "Economic Trinitarianism".  [I can accept that the three aspects are
intrinsic to the nature of God, so I perhaps lean more towards the latter].

I am trying, here, to see if anybody can come up with another description
that is both orthodox and believable.

--
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com


I know that alot of how people think and act in a long distance space project
would be much like old tiem explorers, sailors, hunters and such who spent alot
of time alone, isolated, and alone or in minimal surroundings and sopcial
contacts.. Such as the old arctic and antarctic expeditions and such..

I vote for a later on sci.space.medicine or similar newsgroup fro the
discussion of long term missions into space and there affects on humans and
such..


Sorry for the frequency of the posting (I'm in a time crunch).
I'm selling my toys so I can afford a house :_(

-Amiga 4000/040
  -25 MHz 68040 (built in FPU/MMU)
  -18 megs of RAM, 2 megs of video RAM, expandable to 2 gigabytes
  -A2091 SCSI controller
  -Fujitsu 520M 3.5" SCSI drive, 12ms, 3 years warranty
  -1 year of on-site service remaining
  -$3000 OBO

-Epson ES300C full page 600DPI, 24 bit color scanner w/sware and ADPro loader
  -software (standalone and ADPro loader)
  -docs
  -cable
  -$850

-Supra FAXmodem V.32 bis, 14.4K, latest ROMs
  -$205

-SCSI CD-ROM drive, 400ms, internal
  -$225

-Mitsubishi DiamondScan AUM1371 14" multisync 15-38 KHz, 30-90Hz
  -analog RGB, TTL, video inputs
  -$275

-All of the above, $3900 OBO ($2000 less than original)

-Amiga 2500/040 Toaster system
  -Amiga 2500
  -Zeus 28MHz 68040 (FPU and MMU built in), 1 year warranty
  -16 megs of RAM
  -1 meg of video memory
  -Quantum PRODRIVE 100, 100M SCSI drive
  -2 Personal TBC II, time base correctors (S-video and composite), docs, sware
  -Video Toaster 2.0 with lots of fonts and objects and ToasterVision
  -ToasterVision, AREXX sequencing, Toaster croutons, framestore compress, ...
  -instructional video
  -SCSI CD-ROM drive
  -Sony SLVR5UC SVHS VCR, new, warranty,
  -2 A1080 color RGB/composite/YC monitors
  -Pioneer video disc player, CLD980, RF in/out, composite out
    -rock solid sync generator, multi-format video disc players, CD
  -$6900 OBO

I will parcel this stuff out if necessary (please send offers :_(

-Meade 826C 8" Newtonian reflector telescope
  -8" aperture, f/6
  -very heavy duty mount
  -clock drive
  -dual axis corrector with joystick and AC or DC drive
  -fiberglassed tube for a bit more strength
  -2 finder scopes
    -1 8X50mm finder scope
    -1 60mm finder scope with diagonal holder and 9mm eyepiece
  -2" barrel for 2" eyepieces (includes adapter for 1.25" eyepieces)
  -1 25mm 1.25" eyepiece
  -1 9mm or 7mm 1.25" eyepiece, take your pick, both for $30 more
  -manuals
  -it needs to be collimated, but is otherwise in superb condition
  -$775  (I'd really prefer to sell locally due to its size)

-Maxtor 8760S, 680 meg (formatted), 5.25" FH, 16ms
  -$625
  -$695 in Sun shoebox

-All software listed below is for the Amiga.  Comes with boxes, diskettes,
 manuals and in many cases are unopened, containing registration cards.

-Mean 18 golf
  -$10

-Greg Norman's Shark Attack
  -$10

-Superstar Ice Hockey
  -$10

-Jack Nicklaus
  -$10

-Microbot 3D Design Disk
  -$10

-PGA tour golf
  -$10

-Renegade
  -$10

-Balance of Power
  -$10

-World Trophy Soccer
  -$10

-Waterloo
  -$10

-Omni Play Basketball
  -$10

-All above software:  $65

-Cadence treadmill
  -used for about 1 month
  -manual
  -LCD panel
  -built in computer
  -must sell locally due to size
  -bought for $700
  -asking $190

This A2500 posted for a friend: (please email him at 7MQK@um.cc.umich.edu)
-Amiga 2500/030, 5 megs RAM, 40M SCSI drive, SCSI controller, A1084 monitor
  -$1200 OBO

                        Thanks, Ralph

(313) 677-3086, please call after 6:00pm, or send email (best way to reach me)

rps@arbortext.com    gilgalad@dip.eecs.umich.edu