From: thomas@sunshine.Kodak.COM (Thomas Kinsman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.misc,alt.binaries.pictures.utilities
Subject: DIB/BMP CREATION GUIDE, as requested.
Keywords: DIB BMP Bitmaps File Formats
Message-ID: <1992Dec23.214432.18764@kodak.kodak.com>
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:44:32 GMT
Sender: news@kodak.kodak.com
Organization: Precambiran Electronics, Rochester, NY
Lines: 484
Xref: cradle.titech comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.misc:3609

			   GUIDE TO CREATION OF DIB IMAGES

				  Thomas B. Kinsman

			       Precambrian Electronics
				   29 Falstaff Rd.
				 Rochester, NY 14609
				  thomask@kodak.com
			       Copyright March 15, 1991

					 ABSTRACT

	      The format of images created for use by  MS  Windows  3.0/3.1
	      applications  is	documented  in	the MS Windows Programmer's
	      Reference guide.	This guide is intended as a  clearify  some
	      wording	of   the   specifications,   and  to  put  forth  a
	      recommendation among the various alternatives.

	      Please send updates/corrections/suggestions and revisions	 to
	      me.   Please  thank  me  for  writing  this on my own time by
	      keeping my name  with  the  document.   Thank  you  for  your
	      respect.

	      This document Copyright, 1991, by Thomas B. Kinsman.
	      If  desired,  a  PostScript  version  of	this  document	 is
	      available.

	      This information is free.	 You get more than what you pay for.
	      Don't sue me if I'm wrong.

    OVERVIEW

    The DIB image file format is intended to be a "Device Independent  Bitmap"
    file  format.  (What Microsoft means by "Device Independent" is unclear to
    me.) Four pixel resolutions are supported: 1 bit, 4 bit, 8 bit, and 24 bit
    pixels.

    These images were intended for use on DOS (IBM, or Little-Endian) systems.
    If	you  are  creating them on another architecture you will have to byte-
    swap all short and long integer values.

    By convention, DIB images end in the extension ".BMP".   This  is  because

			      March 15, 1991

				    - 2 -

    they  are  a  super-set of earlier "bitmap image files".  Consequently you
    will sometimes hear DIB files referred to as "BMP" files.

    Since DIB images files are a super-set, there are three "flavors"  of  DIB
    images:
	 o   DOS DIB images.  These are the recommended	 convention,  and  the
	     form  which I will describe how to create.	 They are intended for
	     applications running under MS Windows /3.0 in a DOS environment.
	 o   OS/2 DIB images.  My understanding is that these are  the	flavor
	     of DIB images that were used by the Presentation Manager.
	 o   Old-style Bitmap images.

			      March 15, 1991

				    - 3 -

    DIFFERENCES BETWEEN FLAVORS

    The DOS DIB images consist of:
	 1.  A "BITMAPFILEHEADER" file header which identifies the file	 as  a
	     DIB  file.	  This	header	also gives the total size of the image
	     file, and the offset to the image data.
	 2.  A "BITMAPINFOHEADER"  image  header  which	 specifies  the	 image
	     attributes.
	 3.  An optional palette of colors used by the image.  If  it  exists,
	     this  may contain 2, 16, or 256 entries.  Each entry is a Windows
	     RGBQUAD structure.
	 4.  The image data itself.

    The OS/2 DIB images consist of:
	 1.  The same "BITMAPFILEHEADER" file header which identifies the file
	     as	 a  DIB	 file.	 This  header also gives the total size of the
	     image file, and the offset to the image data.
	 2.  A "BITMAPCOREHEADER"  image  header  which	 specifies  the	 image
	     attributes.
	 3.  An optional palette of colors used by the image.  Again, if  this
	     exists  it	 may  contain  2, 16, or 256 entries.  Each entry is a
	     Windows RGBTRIPLE structure.
	 4.  The image data itself.

    The Old Style image bitmap consists of:
	 1.  Either a BITMAPINFOHEADER or a  BITMAPCOREHEADER.	 Which	header
	     type is determined by the first long integer (DWORD) value.
	 2.  An optional color palette.	  This	palette	 may  be  composed  of
	     either   Windows	RGBQUAD	  structures  (if  the	header	was  a
	     BITMAPINFOHEADER) or Windows RGBTRIPLE structures (if the	header
	     was a BITMAPCOREHEADER).
	 3.  The image data itself.

    CREATING DIB IMAGE FILES.

    Creating a DOS DIB image file consists of several straight forward	steps.
    The headers need to be created and then written to the file.  These header
    structures are defined in the MS  Windows/3.0  "windows.h"	include	 file.
    Palette  information  needs	 to  be	 stored for images that are not 24-bit
    images.  The five general steps are:
	 1.  Filling  in  the  BITMAPFILEHEADER	  and	the   BITMAPINFOHEADER
	     structures the basic image information.
	 2.  If the image is a 1-bit, 4-bit, or an 8-bit image,	 creating  the
	     color palette of RGBQUADS.
	 3.  Calculating the total file size and putting this  information  in

			      March 15, 1991

				    - 4 -

	     the "bfSize" field of the BITMAPFILEHEADER.
	 4.  Calculating the offset to the image data from the	start  of  the
	     file,   and   putting  this  in  the  "bfOffBits"	field  of  the
	     BITMAPFILEHEADER.
	 5.  Writing to the file the BITMAPFILEHEADER,	the  BITMAPINFOHEADER,
	     the color palette, and the image data (in that order).

    The following sections describe structures in terms of MicroSoft  C	 type-
    defined  keywords.	The following table describes these keywords for those
    not familiar with MicroSoft C.

		     _______________________________________
		    |					   |
		    | Type-defined keywords in MicroSoft C.|
		    |______________________________________|
		    | typedef |	 meaning		   |
		    |_________|____________________________|
		    | BYTE    |	 unsigned character	   |
		    | WORD    |	 two byte unsigned integer |
		    | DWORD   |	 four byte unsigned integer|
		    |_________|____________________________|

			      March 15, 1991

				    - 5 -

    THE BITMAPFILEHEADER

    This structure is defined in "windows.h" as:
	 typedef struct tagBITMAPFILEHEADER {
		 WORD	 bfType;
		 DWORD	 bfSize;
		 WORD	 bfReserved1;
		 WORD	 bfReserved2;
		 DWORD	 bfOffBits;
	 } BITMAPFILEHEADER;

    The "bfType" field is the two ascii characters 'B' and 'M'.	  This	serves
    to	identify  the  file  as	 a  DIB	 image file.  On an intel byte ordered
    machine (IBM or a compatible), this constant can be formed	in  C  as  the
    quantity ('M' << 8 | 'B') == 0x4d42 on an intel system.

    The "bfSize" field is the total size of the file.  For our	purposes  this
    field  is equal to: the size of the BITMAPFILEHEADER, plus the size of the
    BITMAPINFOHEADER, plus the number of entries in the	 color	palette	 times
    the	 size  of  a  RGBQUAD, plus the number of bytes of image data.	If the
    image data is being written out in an uncompressed form, this value can be
    calculated	ahead  of  time.   Otherwise, this field needs to be filled in
    later.

    Both the "bfReserved1" and the "bfReserved2"  fields  are  always  set  to
    zero.

    The "bfOffBits" field is set to the offset to the start of the image  data
    from  the  start  of the file.  For our purposes, this field should be set
    to:	 the  size  of	the   BITMAPFILEHEADER,	  plus	 the   size   of   the
    BITMAPINFOHEADER,  plus  the  number of entries in the color palette times
    the size of a RGBQUAD.  This works out because the image data  is  written
    write after the color palette if one exists.

			      March 15, 1991

				    - 6 -

    THE BITMAPINFOHEADER

    This structure is defined in "windows.h" as:
	 typedef struct tagBITMAPINFOHEADER{
		 DWORD	 biSize;
		 DWORD	 biWidth;
		 DWORD	 biHeight;
		 WORD	 biPlanes;
		 WORD	 biBitCount;
		 DWORD	 biCompression;
		 DWORD	 biSizeImage;
		 DWORD	 biXPelsPerMeter;
		 DWORD	 biYPelsPerMeter;
		 DWORD	 biClrUsed;
		 DWORD	 biClrImportant;
	 } BITMAPINFOHEADER;

    The "biSize" field is set to the size of  the  BITMAPINFOHEADER  structure
    itself.   When  reading  the  image	 file,	this  value is what is used to
    determine  that  the  image	 contains  a  BITMAPINFOHEADER	 and   not   a
    BITMAPCOREHEADER.

    The "biWidth" field is the width of the image in image pixels.

    The "biHeight" field is the height of the image in image lines.

    The "biPlanes" field should always be set to 1.  This data is written  out
    as if there was one color plane.

    The "biBitCount" field is the bit-depth of the image.  This must be either
    1, 4, 8, or 24, depending on the bit-depth of the image data.

    The "biCompression" field tells how the image data is compressed if it  is
    compressed.	   DIB	images	support	 two  forms  of	 run-length  encoding.
    However, I have never seen any images which use it, and don't know yet how
    it works.  Set this field to zero (long zero, or 0L), to indicate that the
    data is not compressed.

    All subsequent fields of the BITMAPINFOHEADER  structure  may  be  set  to
    zero.   A  requirement  of	the  interpretting software that it be able to
    compute these fields as necessary from the previous information.

    The field which you might want to explicitly specify might be "biClrUsed".
    For	 4-bit	and  8-bit  images  this  field	 indicates that not all of the
    possible color entries are used and that the  image	 contains  "biClrUsed"
    colors.  If you are using only 32 colors with an 8-bit image, then you may
    only want to save 32 of the possible 256 palette entries.  Generally,  set
    this field to zero.

			      March 15, 1991

				    - 7 -

    COLOR PALETTES

    Each entry of a  color  palette  is	 a  RGBQUAD  structure.	  The  RGBQUAD
    structure is defined in the "windows.h" include file as:
	 typedef struct tagRGBQUAD {
		 BYTE	 rgbBlue;
		 BYTE	 rgbGreen;
		 BYTE	 rgbRed;
		 BYTE	 rgbReserved;
	 } RGBQUAD;
    The "rgbReserved" field is always zero.  For each color used,  the	amount
    of Blue, Green, and Red are filled into the structure and the structure is
    written to the file.  A value of zero in  the  "rgbBlue",  "rgbGreen",  or
    "rgbRed"   fields  indicates  that	that  particular  component  does  not
    contribute to the color composition.  A value  of  255  in	any  of	 these
    fields  indicates  that  the  component  contributes  fully	 to  the color
    composition.

    IMAGE DATA

    There are three surprises about the ordering of image data	in  DIB	 image
    file.   The	 creator  of  this  format  was determined to be creative, and
    certainly was.

    Within the image data, each line written out is padded to  the  next  four
    byte  quantity.   So,  if  you had an 8-bit image which was only one pixel
    wide, you still have to write out four bytes for every  image  line.   The
    number of bytes per line can be calculated as:

		 bytes_per_line = (width_in_pix * bit_depth + 31 ) / 32 * 4;

	---or, in terms of the fields of the BITMAPINFOHEADER structure---

		 bytes_per_line = (biWidth * biBitCount + 31 ) / 32 * 4;

    When writing out your image data, you must write it out bottom line first.
    The	 bottom line of the image as you would look at it on the screen is the
    first line of image data in the file.

    For 1-bit, 4-bit, and 8-bit images, information is written	as  you	 would
    expect.   One  bit	images	are  padded  eight pixels to a byte.  Four bit
    images are padded two pixels to a byte.  Eight bit images are written  one
    pixel per byte.  Twenty-four bit images are written three bytes per pixel.
    However, for 24-bit images the information must  be	 written  out  in  the
    order  blue,  green, red.  While most image file formats write data out in

			      March 15, 1991

				    - 8 -

    an "RGB" ordering, a DIB image file	 writes	 the  data  out	 in  an	 "BGR"
    ordering.

    SUMMARY

    This  should  provide  enough  information	to  create  DIB	 images	  from
    applications  such	as  scanners  or for image exporting routines.	If you
    find out any more about DIB images, please pass the information on	to  me
    so that I can modify this document accordingly.

			      March 15, 1991

--
    Thomas B. Kinsman, Rochester, NY, thomas@acadia.kodak.com
    "Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty."	-anon


I don't have any evidence against water from Lourdes curing MS --
I'm sure there is anecdotal evidence that it does.  Do you really think
that in the absence of a double-blind study I should be indifferent
to the hypothesis that water from Lourdes cures MS?

For what it's worth, I know of only one double blind study of Nystatin
for "candida hypersensitivity syndrome."  It was published in the
New England Journal (I think 1990) and showed no benefit on systemic
symptoms (though I think it reduced vaginal yeast infections, not
surprisingly).  As I recall, the yeast crowd had some major objections
to the study, though I don't remember what they were.


Can some kind soul provide me with information on LDRs that contain an
onboard light-source, in a totally integrated and light-shielded unit.

I have seen a VTL5C LDR in some schematics.  So who are the manufacturers
of these devices, and what are the different types.

Thanks very much in advance,
Jim.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Trivellas.
  Department of Electrical & Electronic Engineering.
  School of Information Technology & Electrical Engineering.
  The University of Melbourne, Parkville 3052, Victoria, Australia.
                  |
                  |
                  |			Telephone: +61 3 3447976
                *****			Email: jimt@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au
     _______*************_______
   _|_____*****************_____|_
 _|_|_____*****************_____|_|_	"Hello, is that the front desk?"
   |          The  SPID          |


	I'm not sure how far standardisation went, but on two of my bikes (the
GS550B and, I think, the GT380M) I was able to pop a Cibie' insert directly
into the original housing (held in by those roughly W-shaped springs).  The
inserts used 55/60W halogen bulbs, and were great, although Mr Bill later
indicates that this may be too much of a drain on your charging system.


Assuming the fire was caused by lanterns and stoves being knocked about
by the tanks pushing on the walls (would shake a building pretty good)
perhaps they didn't flee because fleeing would have meant ENTERING the
fire from the other side?  Like they were surrounded by the fire, and
rubble, which finally (combined with teargas, and combustion gasses)
overcame and enveloped them?

In other words they were TRAPPED by the flames, heat, fumes and rubble?

Does that sound plausable?  Not as dramatic as Korash forcing them to
stay, or shooting them (no shot victims found yet), but plausable...


        As you're no doubt aware, Phill, there are probably five or six
different, mutually contradictory versions of the events in Waco on
Feb. 28 all of which are from reputable news sources, ranging the the
Associated Press to TIME to Newsweek.

        Some of the earliest reports issued by the AP were not at all
flattering the to BATF, and produced some question as to who fired first.

        Now, for all I know, you were there to witness it.  But
I kind of doubt that.

        The BATF, in a letter they've been sending out to people,
says both that they were ambushed because they lost the element of
surprise, and that they went up and knocked on the door and had it
slammed in their faces.

        It strikes *me* as kind of strange to rely on surprise to
serve a warrant by knocking on the door.

        There are at least questions that need to be answered.

        This paranoid assertation was made by witnesses to the original
assault who stated that the BATF initiated hostilities by throwing
concussion grenades and reported by the Associated Press.

        Phill, the BATF were in a firefight with the BD for *forty-five*
minutes.  I find it hard to believe that if they were expecting peaceful
citizens they *wouldn't* have shown up in live-stock trailers and would
have retreated immediately.

        If they *were* expecting peacful citizens, why show up with over
a hundred officers, some of which clearly visible on video to be carrying
sub-machineguns, and *3* National Guard Helicopters?

        I don't know who did what, but, as I said, there are questions that
need to be answered.


"In Dog We Thrust"


Hi!

I am looking for a source of lithium batteries for an original Mac II.  The
number on the battery is ER 1/2 AA.  Local electronic shops & computer stores
freak when inquire.  The fastest any of them can get a battery to me is 2-3
weeks for about $20.  Anything faster and/or cheaper is welcome!

Please respond to me via e-mail and I will summarize to the net.

Note my e-mail address differs from the return address of this posting.

Thanks in advance for your help!


Maybe before Babel,everyone including angels spoke the same language,so at
Babel, God punished us by giving us languages different from the original one.
So if that's the case,then angels now would be speaking in the tongue  mankind
spoke before Babel.


Hi,

I'm trying to get my program to monitor resize/position events,
so that when the program exits, I can save the last known geometry in
some sort of 'preferences' file.

I am adding an event handler for StructureNotify to the TopLevelShell:

 XtAddEventHandler(topLevel,StructureNotifyMask,False,configureCB,myData);

This works fine, and my callback is called whenever the window is resized
or repositioned using the window manager (mwm).

However, when I'm just resizing the window, using any resize handle on the
window manager resize decoration, the x and y are set to zero in the
XEvent passed to the event handler callback.  I'm accessing the xconfigure
structure, like the X11 manual says.  (xev->xconfigure.x, xev->xconfigure.y).
The width and height memebers are correct.

When I reposition the window, using the window manager, the xevent's xconfigure
structure contains all the correct x, y, width, height member settings.

Q1: Anybody know why, when just resizing, the x and y are being set to zero?

Q2: Any other way to handle detecting and saving geometry changes?

I've tried using XtGetValues() on the topLevel widget when exiting my
application (before destroying any widgets) and all I get is garbage values
for the x, y, width, height resources.

Thanks
--


Consider it heard!  AMI Enterprise III EISA/VLB w/ UltraStor 34F
--

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


:I tried this code yesterday.  On my Sparcstation ELC it takes over
:300 seconds to compress 22 seconds' worth of speech.  This means that it
:needs to be "optimized" by over a factor of 10 before it will be usable
:in even a half-duplex mode.

Ouch!  Thanks for trying it.

:I question whether CELP is the best approach for this application.  It produces
:great compression but at the expense of tremendous CPU loads.  We want
:something that can be run on ordinary workstations or even high-end PC's
:without DSP cards.  My guess is that some other algorithm is going to be
:a better starting point.

Yes.  I'm not sure if my xposting to comp.speech made it to here too, but
I've found that a low sample rate (3300 samples/sec at 8 bits per sample)
plus the pd 'shorten' lossless sound compression code actually does get
speech into 14.4K with a simdgen left over.  This is *definitely* worth
working on, folks.  And shorten works in well under real-time.


HELP!  I am trying to view .JPG files with my 386SX, 20MHz machine
.  I have a STB-POWERGRAPH graphics card with 1024 X 768 by 256 colors,
with 1Meg RAM on it.

I have tried CVIEW097 (with windows-- EXTREMELY SLOW), and DVPEG24.
DVPEG24 doesn't work!  Even if I pick a lot of the "modes" that are
supported by POWERGRAPH (so it says in the manual), it doesn't work
when I try to view a picture... it only buzzes.

Anyone out there that can help me; give me suggestions?

I would really appreciate it!


The problem with this view is that the topic under discussion in this
passage *is* marriages that were performed on earth.  Jesus' words
seem to me to indicate that He regards His response as the answer to their
question about which earthly marriage would be valid after the resurrection.
This being the case, the most straightforward interpretation, in my
opinion, is that marriage does not exist in the next life because those
who are raised are of a different nature than what we are now.  Other-
wise, why would Jesus offer "but are like the angels in heaven" as a
contrast to the idea of the resurrected marrying and being given in
marriage?  We do not have angel-like natures now, but someday we shall,
and when we do, our earthly marriages will be irrelevant.  Or at least,
that's what I think Jesus is saying about the post-resurrection validity of
marriages performed on earth.  Your mileage may vary. :)


1993 World Championships in Germany:
 ====================================

  Group A standings (Munich)            Group B standings (Dortmund)
  --------------------------            ----------------------------

             GP  W T L  GF-GA +/-  P                  GP  W T L  GF-GA +/-  P

  Canada      3  3 0 0  17- 1 +16  6    Czech republic 3  2 1 0   8- 1  +7  5
  Russia      3  2 1 0  12- 4  +8  5    Finland        3  2 1 0   5- 1  +4  5
  Sweden      3  2 0 1   8- 6  +2  4    USA            3  1 2 0   8- 3  +5  4
  Italy       3  1 1 1   5- 8  -3  3    Germany        3  2 0 1  11- 8  +3  4
  ----------------------------------    -------------------------------------
  Switzerland 3  0 0 3   0- 9  -9  0    France         3  0 0 3   4-13  -9  0
  Austria     3  0 0 3   2-16 -14  0    Norway         3  0 0 3   0-10 -10  0

 April 18:  Italy - Russia        2-2       Norway - Germany          0-6
            Sweden - Austria      1-0       USA - Czech republic      1-1

 April 19:  Canada - Switzerland  2-0
            Russia - Austria      4-2       Finland - France          2-0

 April 20:  Sweden - Canada       1-4       Czech republic - Germany  5-0
            Switzerland - Italy   0-1       Finland - USA             1-1

 April 21:                                  Germany - France          5-3
            Italy - Sweden        2-6       Czech republic - Norway   2-0

 April 22:  Switzerland - Russia  0-6       USA - France              6-1
            Austria - Canada      0-11      Norway - Finland          0-2

 April 23:  Switzerland - Austria           Germany - Finland		20:00

 April 24:  Russia - Sweden                 Czech republic - France	15:30
            Canada - Italy                  USA - Norway		20:00

 April 25:  Sweden - Switzerland            Finland- Czech republic  	15:30
            Russia - Canada                 Germany - USA		20:00

 April 26:  Austria - Italy                 France - Norway		20:00

 PLAYOFFS:
 =========

 April 27:	Quarterfinals
		A #2 - B #3						15:30
		A #3 - B #2						20:00

 April 28:	Quarterfinals
		A #1 - B #4						15:30
		A #4 - B #1						20:00

 April 29:	Relegation
		A #5 - B #6						15:30
		A #6 - B #5						20:00

 April 30:	Semifinals
		A #1/B #4 - A #3/B #2					15:30
		A #4/B #1 - A #2/B #3					20:00

 May 1:		Relegation						14:30
		Bronze medal game 					19:00

 May 2:		FINAL							15:00


    I am thinking about buying a new motherboard and a cyrix 486dlc 40 or 33 Mh
z.  It will be an upgrade from a 386sx 25.  I was wondering if anybody has any
FACTS they can fill me in on.  If anybody has one what do you think about it?
I will also get a cyrix math co with it.  I have benchmarks for the two chips a
nd they look very good for the price.  If anybody responds please send me email
 because I usually don't check the mail very often but I check my reader daily.
    Thanks for your info, and remember only respond if you have legitimate comp
laints or praise, not just to Cyrix/AMD bash.  I know about what Byte, computer
 shopper, pc computing and etc... have said and that is why I am considering
the Cyrix chip.  Thanks.........


This may work, but won't it involve invoking the applications, e.g. if you
drag a .bmp or .txt file to the min. Print Manager icon, won't it RUN
Notepad and Paintbrush before printing?  If you just want to drag a file
(.txt or .bmp) to a print server icon, with stay at front attributes, you
need an intelligent Print Manager drag and drop client like Amish Print 2.0.


There would be some point to doing long-term monitoring of things like
particles and fields, not to mention atmospheric phenomena.  However,
there is no particular plan to establish any sort of monitoring network.
To be precise, there is no particular plan, period.  This is a large
part of the problem.  In this context, it's not surprising that unexciting
but useful missions like this get short shrift at budget time.  The closest
approach to any sort of long-term planetary monitoring mission is the
occasional chance to piggyback something like this on top of a flashier
mission like Galileo or Cassini.

It is most unlikely that there is much happening on Pluto that would be
worth monitoring, and it is a prohibitively difficult mission to fly
without new propulsion technology (something the planetary community
has firmly resisted being the guinea pigs for).  The combined need to
arrive at Pluto within a reasonable amount of time, and then kill nearly
all of the cruise velocity to settle into an orbit, is beyond what can
reasonably be done with current (that is, 1950s-vintage) propulsion.

Most of this can be done just about as well from Earth.  The few things
that can't be, can be done better from a Voyager-like spacecraft that is
*not* constrained by the need to enter orbit around a planet.


It sounds as though you might want to try a product such as "super-glue".
The active ingredient is cynoacrylate, the same compound used to reconstruct
bones.  I have successfully used superglue for a number of procedures on many
different species of animal. If you are simply trying to adhear something
to bone for several months, this would be ideal. It bonds almost immediatly,
is resistant to infection, and is non-irritating to surrounding tissue.

Phil Bowman, Manager
Lab Animal Resources
University of Montana
Missoula, MT 59812
larpjb@selway.umt.edu
:wg

--


Owwww!!  Mr. Jefferson would be clearly disappointed in your designation of
him as author of the bill of rights.  And your reference to those
in Israel was condesceding and inappropriate.
The Declaratio of Independence of 1776 was written by Thomas Jefferson.
In 1787, the Constitution was drafted by 55 men in Philadelphia.
In 1791, the Bill of Rights was added.  Well, maybe Jefferson
would be flattered.

As to you guys at UVA, your right, not all of you are anti-Jewish,
or self-hating.  But when I visited Charlottesville, I noticed
a distinct lack of diversity, from which I must assume you garner
your inability to perceive the reality of the outside world.


(Anthony

If she doesn't welcome the excruciating pain of labor, the
selfish bitch deserves to die in childbirth.  She was probably
lying about the rape anyway.


I have the following complete camera kits for sale:

Minolta with three lenses.
Ricoh with zoom lens.
Nikon 35 mm autofocus. $50.
Nikkor 50/1.8 MINT. $60.


Sorry, but this is a red herring.

Are you contending that the "mountain of forms" are processed by Blue
Cross?  Having had Blue Cross insurance both as a government employee
and as an employee of a private corporation, I saw no difference between
the two sets of forms.

Moreover, the administrative costs associated with Medicare/Medicaid,
the two primary forms of "government" insurance are considerably lower than
the average for private insurance companies.   (5% versus 14%-16%).

If you have any evidence that Blue Cross bears a heavier burden in insuring
government employees than private employees, post it.  Otherwise, try
to stick to factual assertions.

Well now, that's an interesting defense of the "free enterprise" system.
Are you contending that it is government intervention that prevents
private insurance companies from "standardizing?"

In fact, it is true that some of the red-tape burden stems from the
lack of standardization among the 1500 or so private insurers in the US,
but it's a little difficult to understand how this is anything other than
"free enterprise" at work.

By the way, Barron's, the bible of Wall Street, this week admitted that
administrative costs were significantly lower in Canada because "....a
single-payer system is always cheaper...".  Guess even the "free enterprise
advocates" are beginning to see the light.

Sorry, but you seem to be confusing proposals with health care
reform with the Bush administration's gag order on federally funded family
planning clinics.  There are no proposals that would control what your
"doctor...can and cannot say about medical procedures."

Try again.

jsh


I have a Uniden visor clip sized radar detector with x, k, and ka band  forsale.  Has city/highway and audio/mute options and comes with cigarette lighter attachment. I'm asking $50.  Please e-mail replies to jth@bach.udel.edu


I just bought a new AMIECU EISA motherboard and an Adaptec 1742A fast-SCSI
controller. I wanted to install the AHA-1742A and did as written in the
AMIECU manual. But the CFG-utility told me to get a newer version of the Adaptec
configuration overlay file named 'adp0000.ovr', because the old one is not
compatible to my motherboard.
The adaptec driver utility is version 3.0.

       CAN YOU HELP ME ? PLEASE DO SO.


Like we have never heard of, or read these verses before?

How about you read them in context, taking into consideration the times and
places in which they were written; the local customs and pagan rituals;
what the surrounding verses are talking about and how they interact with
the rest of the Bible.

There are many issues in the Bible that are argued, and can be argued
successfullly from both sides of an issue.  Some examples that come to mind
are
		Gifts of the Spirit
		when the Rapture will occur(pre or post tribulation)
		how people should be baptized
to name a few.

I have found nothing in scripture that condemns me, or anyone else, for having
a monogamous relationship with the person whom I love, even if we are the
same sex.

I'm sorry if I am coming across as heated.  It's just that the Lord has been
so dear to me the last several years and I'm tired of hearing this same old
thing from people who believe what their told rather than finding out for
themselves.

Check it out for yourself.  Invite the Holy Spirit to guide you.  If I weren't
confident of this I wouldn't invite you to do this.


I doubt his trans uses standard syncros.  There are several mechanisms for
coupling a gear with the transmission output shaft, some of which are fine
for racing and unsuitable for street use.


For those who pray in tongues,

      When is it appropriate for you to pray/speak in tongues
and why?  I just would like to gain more knowledge about this subject.


How much do you watch and follow hockey?  The Pens and Bruins will be in the
same division next season, which will give Neeley plenty of opportunity
to whine about Ulf.


Driving While Impared.  It allows for prosecution of drivers under the
influence of a variety of drugs.


I am currently managing, among many other labs, a lab with three
LC IIs, a Mac Plus with 45 MB external HD, and a LaserWriter II NTX. My
problem? The LC IIs seem to intermittently slow to a snail's pace.
        These LC IIs have 4 MB RAM, 256K VRAM, and a Quantum LP105S HD
installed. I have reformatted the drive with Hard Disk Toolkit 1.3, and
it gives a very respectable 2.9 overall rating to this drive, so it's not
the drive. I have reinstalled System 7.1, MS-Word 5.1a, MS-Works 3.0, and
so on, all from the master disks. In short, I have done everything I can
think of in software. I am *not* a hardware hacker, though I pop cases
fairly often. But nothing works.
        The problem is intermittent and unpredictable. The mouse always
moves smoothly, floppies always run at the same speed, but occasionally,
for about 1-2 hours at a time, a machine will run like it was running on
a 4 MHz 68000, not a 16 MHz 68030. It is VERY frustrating and makes it
nearly unusable. It does seem to worsen with increasing disk activity.
        Has anyone encountered this problem before? Has anyone got any
ideas? They would be much appreciated.

                                    -- Andrew Geweke


[...]

You could be right.  Then again, you could be wrong.  This claim is completely
unverifiable and untestable.  I'd wager most of the Braves fans on the net
could name more than 3 players from their 1988 season.

You could give away tickets to Braves games.  However, my Dad and I were able
to get great seats from scalper for face value, which isn't exactly the sign
of a hot ticket...

This is *precisely* why they were considered America's team.  Even
(especially?) when they were bad, you could see most of the Braves games on
cable.  You could do that for the Cubs as well, but the Braves had better
camerawork, better announcers (what would you rather listen to -- Harry discuss
the game, or Skip and Pete discuss motoball?), and teams that weren't *too*
much worse.  Because of TBS, the Braves had a lot of fans outside of Georgia.
At home in Kentucky, even though we were much closer to Cincinnati there was
as many Braves fans as Reds fans, even in 1990.  You could actually watch the
Braves play -- you had to go to Cincinnati to watch the Reds.  I can go
anywhere in America and watch the Braves.

Why?  I'd guess that Braves fans are more widely distributed than Toronto
fans.
--
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic


See the rec.pets.cats FAQ or any doctor or vet for more information.

I am not any of the above, but we do have a couple of cats.

It is transmitted through the fecal matter, so a pregnant woman should
avoid cleaning the cat tray and you should both wash hands before
preparing or eating meals.  The latter is sound advice at any time of
course.

Apart from that, its no great problem.  You certainly do not need to
get rid of your cats.

Paul.


I can understand your anger about the German audience. I mean, it was the
Finnish team they played and they were taking advantage of the ridiculous
penalties the Canadien ref called in the last period. The Germans got a
match penalty and a 10 minutes misconduct for practically nothing and
seconds after that the German goalie got two minutes for "delay of game"
for a shot that was deflected and went into the crowd. The resulting 5:3
skating advantage lead to the deciding goal at a point, when the Germans
were starting to come up strong.
I am also sick of the nationalism that is going on in German sports events.
If you watch for example a tennis Davis Cup match the players are often not
able to play for minutes, because the crowd is so obnoxious. But I have to
admit that this kind of nationalism is as strong or even stronger in most
other countries (you should go to the US and watch the way they present the
Olympics on television; or the soccer crowds in England; or the Finnish
spectators at nordic skiing events.....). I mean it makes me sick to see
all this nationalism all over the world and I would rather see the best
team/player win and get cheared at. I do not mind if my favorite team
looses to somebody that is better or plays more attractive and I have to
admit that in most sports the German national site is not my favorite team
to watch (the German soccer team is boring to watch, for example).
But, reading the above posting, I think that you are on the same level as
these crowds you are criticizing. It is easy to talk of (nearly all)
Germans as Nazis and nationalists; thats the kind of propaganda that all
ultraconservative people use against Germany. It is true that there is a
great danger of re-arising nationalism in Germany but from my experience
most of the people (at least of the people that i know) also regard this as
a big threat and are trying to demonstrate this attitude now. Why can't we
just look at people as human beeings and not try to put them into drawers
corresponding to their nationality (eg. all Russians are Communists; all
Americans are Capitalists; all Germans are Nazis, all Fins are hanging
around beeing drunk on ferries...).
In my opinion, your comment shows the narrowness of your mind and that you
don't seem to be different from the Nazis you are talking about.

Thomas


but theology is full of reason even if it is, as we believe, based on false
premises etc etc.

hold on there: no meaning to "consciousness" or "mind" or "self"?!

what illogicality?

since when is, for instance, (non-behaviourist) psychology a pipe dream?
Surely the major purpose of the science of psychology is to understand the
workings of the mind.

"manifestations of the mundane" sounds rather transcendental to me. In fact
"matter", "energy", "space" and "time" are well measured but mysterious
concepts.

Does an atheist really have to believe in your reductionism or be cast out as
not following the true faith?!


hey folks,

I'm fairly new to these groups, tho' some have heard from me before.

I'd like to get your comments on a question that has been on my mind a
lot:  What morals/ethics apply to dreams and out-of-body incidents?
In normal dreams, you can't control anything, so obviously
you aren't morally responsible for your actions.  But if you can contrive
to control the action in dreams or do an OOBE, it seems like a morality applies.

Now, there seem to be 3 alternatives:

1) Dreams and OOBEs are totally mental phenomena.  In this case no morality
applies beyond what might be called 'mental hygiene', that is, not trying
to think about anything evil, or indulgining in overly sexy or violent
thoughts.

2) Dreams and OOBEs have a reality of their own (i.e. are 'another plane')
Evidence for this is that often dreams and OOBEs are sometimes done in
common by more than one person.  A
mark of objective fact is that >1 people report the same objective experience.
In this case, the same interpersonal morality/ethics applies in dreams and
OOBEs as does in waking life.

3) Like (2), but here we assume that though the dreeam and OOBE environs have a
real existence, a different moral/ethics apply there, and no (or maybe
different) moral laws apply there.

So... There it is.  Is one of these cases the truth, or does anyone know
of another alternative?  respond by post or email.

thanks very much

*dt*

========================================================


Base Unit
               1 Controller
               All Cables and hookups
                Games:
                  Kieth Courage
                  Legenary Axe
                  Fantasy Zone
                  Victory Run
                  Wrestling Challenge
                  Blazing Lasers
                  Military Madness
                  Bloody Wolf


[..]

Possibly the parallel just stems from your tending to use bad sources...
Anyway, don't you think that similarity is rather shallow?  You're only
looking at the surface, at the way of argumentation.
And now you should perhaps go a little deeper and try to find the difference,
for example, find out whether you can find real science done by Hitching.
If you can't, will you then admit that your attempt at quoting an authority
has backfired?


I know nothing about Sun's but replacing pieces of libraries, shared
or not, is straight forward on RS/6000's (all releases).  Extract the
appropriate pierce with ar; rebind the .o; and replace with ar.
See Info for details.


From article <1r0mhtINNa59@cronkite.Central.Sun.COM>, by dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard):

I noticed that too.  Special agent (asshole actually) Ricks stated that
David Koresh had "explosives that could blow up an armored vehicle 40
feet into the air."  It looked like to me that the BDs had plenty of
opportunity to use these explosives---provided that they had them in the
first place.  For example, when one of the tanks was injecting CS gas
into the ranch house (yes ranch house; the BDs weren't living in a
fortress) they could have easily destroyed or disabled that tank because
it was idling there for a considerable length of time.  So, why didn't
they do this?  Could it be that they didn't have any explosives or
similar munitions?  I just don't buy what the ATF and FBI have been
saying.  Hopefully, the truth will come out.

Here's something noteworthy:  after the fire had been burning for some
time an explosion occurred---just *one* explosion.  The media said that
this was some of the explosives that the BDs posessed going off.  I
don't think this was the case.  My brother and I noticed that this
so-called "explosion" resembled a plume of propane gas being ignited.
We figure that this is what it was because of how the "explosion"
looked and sounded.  Obviously, it wasn't due to something like TNT,
dynamite, or C4.  I have seen a propane explosion before...the explosion
in the ranch house greatly resembled this.  Also, I noticed something
that looked like a propane tank in the charred ruble the next day.

Isn't it curious that the ATF wasn't very forthcoming about how the four
officers got killed?  Many weeks had gone by before they stated that
some of the officers had been killed and/or wounded by grenades thrown
by the BDs.  Earlier, when someone asked one of the spokespersons about
whether or not an autopsy had been performed on the slain agents, they
said that an autopsy had been done but THEY WEREN'T READY TO RELEASE
THE FINDINGS.  Now why is this?  Does the ATF have something to hide?
Perhaps those four agents were killed by friendly fire.  What is the
cause of death exactly?  NO ONE HAS EVER SAID WHAT IT IS.

What is certain is this:  ATF agents *did* throw grenades into the
compound.  As a matter of fact, Mr. Koresh handed his lawyer a grenade
body during one of the lawyer's visits to the compound.  Later on
the lawyer gave the grenade body (I don't know if it was a dud or a
spent one btw) to the ATF.  How much do you want to bet that this
grenade will mysteriously disappear?  At this point in time the only
people we know who had grenades was the ATF agents.  Wouldn't it be
a shocker if the no one ever found any evidence of grenades, rockets,
or explosives in the rubble?  The ATF would sure have egg on their
face then.  Note that the ATF is doing the *initial* sweep of the
rubble.  The FBI and the Texas Rangers won't investigate until the
ATF is done.  This looks like a perfect opportunity for the ATF to
make sure that others "find" what they want for them to "find" if
you know what I mean.  I'm probably being a little paranoid here
but if I am I have could reason to be.  Recall that several weeks
had gone by before anyone said that the BDs had used grenades.
Also recall that early on the ATF had *denied* that their agents
used grenades on the BDs.  Someone is lying here.

Scott Kennedy,  Brewer and Patriot


I is a strong deterent to the teens that are executed.  They won't do that
again!  This policy cuts way down on repeat offenders.

Please do not flame me - I don't agree with capital punishment for teen's.

They are also unsupervised.  With proper supervision, they would not be
throwing rocks.  If parents cannot provide the minimal supervision needed
to stop this activity, they should not be allowed to have children :-)

Notice the smiley ;-)


4. Annex Gaza to Egypt.
5. Annex Gaza to Israel
6. Maintain the status quo.
7. Partition Gaza into a Jewish and an Arab state.

	I don't necisarily support any of these, I just felt like
pointing out there are way more than three solutions.  Next time,
maybe we'll see some research into them....

Adam
Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu


   From psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell) on rec.martial-arts...
   >I'm sure such weapons have been developed.  Our society does not,
   >however, condone their possession or use.

Actually, Joe, I wrote the above.  Peter was responding to my article.

I'm actually rather confused by your post.  I suppose I didn't
make myself clear, cause you seem to have gotten exactly the
opposite impression from what I intended.  I suppose "the authorities"
might have been a better term than "society".  Carry and use a firearm
in many parts of the country (certainly the parts I live in), and expect,
at the very least, to have an awful lot of explaining to do.
And there is also appears to be  a trend in society at large that
actively opposes what many see as their right to defend themselves.

   In a few other parts of our society, handguns are banned or
   so restricted as to be practically unavailable to the law-
   abiding citizen for self-defense outside the home.  Funny,
   though, how the criminals in such places continue to have a
   lush supply of guns and no compunctions about using them.
   IMHO, you don't need to be either a political philosopher or
   a crime victim to realize that there's a flaw in the gun-
   grabbers' logic.

Agreed.

   You're welcome to your HO, too, the First Amendment being as
   important as the Second, but please don't let your obvious
   good intentions be subverted by insupportable generalities
   about something as big and diverse as US society.

My only intention was to comment that the existence of suitable
weapons of self defense doesn't mean you'll escape a whole shitload
of trouble should you be forced to use them.

   Or by the
   naive hope that making gun possession a crime will give pause
   to someone who would be a criminal anyway.

I made no such statements, nor do I have such a naive hope or outlook.

   Wishing you peace and the wherewithal to defend yourself
   if others' thoughts are not that kindly,

That's all I want: the opportunity to leave in peace, or to
have the means to defend myself when that in not possible.

I *think* we agree on this issue.  I guess my position didn't
survive the transition from cognition to ASCII.


News:
=====
For the first time all season, the Flames are now injury-free. The only player
remaining on the limp is center Carey Wilson who, even when healthy, is not
a major part of the team.

Trent Yawney did not score a goal all season until the last regular season
game against San Jose. He potted his first of the year in that game, and has
also scored goals in both Game 1 and Game 2 against Los Angeles.

Thoughts on Game 1:
==================

The Flames played horribly in dropping the first game of their series with
Los Angeles 6-3 on Sunday afternoon. They seemed more interested in throwing
big hits than in scoring goals. They physically dominated the Kings, but that
was the only area they dominated in. The game plan was to rush the net and
try and take advantage of a young, inexperienced L.A. defence and the shaky
Kings goaltending, but those plans fell by the wayside while the Flames
conducted a steady march to the penalty box. Particularily stupid was Theoren
Fleury taking a five minute major and a game misconduct for slamming Warren
Rychel's face into the dasher while Rychel was on his knees.

Goaltender Mike Vernon played well and could not really be faulted for the
loss, despite his well-publicized poor record in afternoon games. He got
very little support from his defence in clearing the front of the net and
sweeping away rebounds. In fact, Marty McSorley's goal actually went in off
Chris Dahlquist's skate in front of the net.

Thoughts on Game 2:
==================

The Flames came back strong in the second game, evidently aware of the
potentially fatal consequences of losing both the first two games on home ice.
The first period was fairly even, with the edge going to the Kings. But Calgary
came out strong in the second period and simply dominated the Kings, scoring
five goals to take a lead they never relinquished en route to a 9-4 win.

The deciding factors in this game were faceoffs and special teams. Calgary
dominated on faceoffs as they did in Game 1, but they were able to make better
use of the won faceoffs in this game than they did in the first one. Calgary
also went 3-for-5 on the powerplay while L.A. only went 1-for-8 and gave up
a shorthanded goal to Joel Otto. L.A.'s powerplay goal also came late in the
game with the outcome already decided. The Kings' powerplay failed them when
they needed it most, in the 1st and 2nd periods.

The Flames lost RW Greg Paslawski with a suspected shoulder injury when he
was leveled by Alexei Zhitnik right after scoring Calgary's 7th goal. Charlie
Huddy left the game for the Kings with a groin injury.

The game was marred by stupidity in the last minute. First, Craig Berube of
Calgary took a five-minute major for fighting plus a game misconduct for
instigating when he went after Tony Granato for no apparent reason. Granato
drew a minor for some strange reason. (Turtling perhaps). This was followed
30 seconds later by Warren Rychel drawing a major, minor, and game misconduct
for hitting Frank Musil in the face with his stick and then instigating a
fight. Musil got a fighting major for some similarily strange reason. Hardy and
Yawney went toe-to-toe and both got double minors. (Gregson thought that Musil
turtling amounted to fighting, but that Yawney and Hardy throwing punches at
each other was just roughing? Where's this guy from.....)

Upcoming games:
==============
Friday April 23, at L.A.
Sunday April 25, at L.A.
Tuesday April 27, home to L.A.
Thursday April 29, at L.A. (if necessary)
Saturday May 1, home to L.A. (if necessary)

Injuries:
========
C  Carey Wilson, indefinite with recurring knee injuries (Dec 10)

1992-93 Calgary Flames final regular season statistics.
========================================================

#   Pos.  Name                  GP     G      A     Pts     +/-    PIM
===============================================================================
14  RW    Theoren Fleury        83     34     66    100     +14     88
26  C     Robert Reichel        80     40     48     88     +25     54
20  D     Gary Suter            81     23     58     81     -1     112
10  LW    Gary Roberts          58     38     41     79     +32    172
25  C     Joe Nieuwendyk        79     38     37     75     +9      52
42  RW    Sergei Makarov        71     18     39     57      0      40
 2  D     Al MacInnis           50     11     43     54     +15     61
29  C     Joel Otto             75     19     33     54     +2     150
28  LW    Paul Ranheim          83     21     22     43     -4      26
23  RW    Greg Paslawski        73     18     24     42     +3      12
22  RW    Ron Stern             70     10     15     25     +4     207
15  LW    Brent Ashton          58     10     13     23     +11     52
11  LW    Chris Lindberg        62      9     12     21     -3      18
34  D     Roger Johansson       77      4     16     20     +13     62
18  D     Trent Yawney          63      1     16     17     +9      67
 3  D     Frank Musil           80      6     10     16     +28    131
39  C     Brian Skrudland       39      7      7     14     +4      65
16  LW    Craig Berube          77      4      8     12     -6     209
 7  D     Michel Petit          35      3      9     12     -5      54
 4  D     Kevin Dahl            61      2      9     11     +9      56
33  C     Carey Wilson (I)      22      4      7     11     +10      8
 5  D     Chris Dahlquist       74      3      7     10      0      66
21  D     Alexander Godynyuk    27      3      4      7     +6      19
19  RW    Todd Harkins          15      2      3      5     -4      22
12  LW    Paul Kruse            27      2      3      5     +2      41
35  G     Jeff Reese            26      0      4      4      0       4
 6  D     Greg Smyth            35      1      2      3     +2      95
30  G     Mike Vernon           64      0      2      2      0      42
27  RW    Thomas Forslund        6      0      2      2      0       0
??  C     Shawn Heaphy           1      0      0      0      0       2
??  LW    Patrick Lebeau         1      0      0      0      0       0
 1  G     Andrei Trefilov        1      0      0      0      0       2


I have recently purchased a PB170 and have no more use for my
RasterOps 8XL.  It has been a great card.  I should have traded it
with my IIci, but I forgot.  My forgetfulness si your gain.
Great 8 bit video that supports:

640x480 (Apple 13"/14")
640x870 (Apple Portrait)
800x600 (Silly DOS monitor resolution)
1024x768 (60hz & 75hz)
1152x870 (Apple 21")

Has hardware Pan & Zoom and supports virtual desktops up to the size of
2 Newspaper pages.  Includes standard Apple monitor cable or card to BNC,
you choose.

I am asking $250 (it's still advertised in MacWorld for up to $499).
Completely negotiable.  I can get a monitor and sell the pair.  I will
accept offers for software or PowerBook accessory trades.
Make an offer.


FWB distributes HDT Personal Edition (HDT = Hard Drive Toolkit), which
is what I own. This is less fancy than the "full" version, but good
enough for what you and I want to do. Casa Blanca offers Drive7, but
I'm not that familiar with it. I *think* that both Drive7 and HDT PE
can be had for around US$50.

I've used Silverlinging at work (v 5.42??), and I like HDT PE much
better. IMHO it has a better interface, and easier to understand.

Any Drive7 users?


I too am of the same  sentiment Bart, but realistically, this town DOESN'T WANT TO pay for
quality player and hence we are loosing these people left, right and center.
Labour is also responsible for their boycott Pocklington movement.
I would like the Oilers to stay, but realistically, given this situation, it's
bye-bye Oilers.


Hello Xperts out there.
I've just built X11R5 for SunOS 4.1.1/SPARC.
I have gcc-2.2 and I'd like to use its 64-bit capability
to generate an X11 release which will render to the frame
buffer using store-double (64-bit) machine code.
Can anyone tell me which directories/source files/
compiler switches to begin with?

thanks in advance


   Hi,

   I have been told by a local sales that Asante has come out with this
   LCIII PDS Ethernet adapter with an optional 68882 socket on the board.
   My question is will the FPU performance degrade will I put the 68882
   on the PDS card socket instead of on the motherboard itself? Intuitively,
   the math co-processor should always be placed close to the CPU, but
   I am not sure how good Apple's so-called processor-direct slot is when
   it comes to throughout. Does anyone know the answer to this or have
   any experience with the Asante LCIII Ethernet adapter? Thanks in advance.

From what I've heard the PDS slot clock is only 16MHz, to be
compatible with the old LC style boards, while the FPU socket close to
the CPU is clocked at 25MHz.

I guess a board designed for the LCIII can get a 25MHz clock from the
extended PDS socket...


I looked back at this, and asked some questions of various people and
got the following information which I had claimed and you pooh-poohed.
The US has not sold Iraq any arms.  Their navy is entirely made of
F-USSR vessels.  Their airforce (not including stuff captured from Kuwait
which I am not as sure about), doesn't include any US equipment.  Their
missiles are all non-US.  Their tanks are almost all soviet, with about
100 French tanks (older ones). The only US stuff in the Iraqi arsenal
is a few M113s.  Those were not sold to Iraq.  Iraq captured them from
other countries (like Kuwait).  Information is hard to prove.  You are
claiming that the US sold information?  Prove it.

Now, how did the US build up Iraq again?  I just gave some fairly
conclusive evidence that the US didn't sell arms to Iraq.  Information
is hard to prove, almost certainly if the US did sell information, then that
fact is classified, and you can't prove it.  If you can provide some
useful evidence that the US sold arms or valuable intelligence to Iraq,
I am very interested, but not if you just make claims based on what
"everyone knows".


Spring break, I went through the four corners area and back.  The most
beautiful stop I made was in Utah at the Needles Overlook.  Though this
is a bit further east than where you appear to be going, I highly
recommend it.  IMHO it is far more beautiful than the Grand Canyon.  It
was not well marked, but was one of few paved roads off of US191 (I was
heading north from Monticello).  In order to get to the right place, I
should clarify that it is the Needles OVERLOOK, and not the recreation
area.  Heading north from Monticello, it is the second turnoff, and may
have been marked as the Anticline Overlook.  Anticline overlook is
about 20 (dirt, if this matters to you) miles past the Needles
overlook.  The road out to the overlook is paved and reasonably
maintained (I ran it about 70mph).

Looking out from the overlook was like being God and looking down on
the world.  If it isn't too far out of your way, you should see it.


only
(to
was
mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com


Yes it invokes the associated application. That takes but 10 seconds?


: Hi All,

: Would anyone out there in 'net-land' happen to have an
: authentic, sure-fire way of making this great sauce that
: is used to adorn Gyro's and Souvlaki?

: Thanks,

I have a receipe at home that was posted to me by one of our fellow
netters about a month ago.  I am recalling this from memory but
I think I'm fairly close (by the way it was GREAT!)

1 	pint of plain yogurt
1/2	med. sized cucumber finely shredded
3	cloves of garlic (more or less by taste)
1/4 tsp	dill weed

The yogurt is dumped into a strainer lined with a coffee
filter and allowed to drain at least 2 hours (you can
adjust the consistancy of the sauce by increasing this time
up to 24 hours)

The shredded cuc is drained the same way

Mix it all together and let it steep for at least
2 hours (it's better the next day) and enjoy!


Um... they've sold the Cray. They realised that spending two years on
numbercrunching the finite stress analysis figures for the complex
injection-molded cases was not the way to go, and was holding up
development work.
Especially when the first FEA model for the portable left out the battery
cover, and it had to be redone. That's why the portable was about three
years late.

Designing metal cases is easier - they're managing with the Calculator DA,
now it can compute 45/100-0.45 correctly.

Any other suggestions?


Has anyone noticed that all this happened since Chris Perez was gifted
with a membership?

Anyone for rec.motorcycles.beemer.club.whiner? I know this might get
confused with K-whiners, but maybe there's a connection?


Hello,

I was wondering if anyone knew of an interface to od ( octal dump ), I assume
it would be called xod.  Actually, any viewer for a core file will do.

I looked at export ( @ mit ) in the index of /contrib, but didn't find anything
relevant.


No, what it means is that I, like a majority of environmental scientists/researchers,
agree that El Nino/La Nina and the Southern Oscillations are the systems
involoved in that climatic phenomena categorized by humans as a drought(1988).

Furthermore, in response to an earlier message, the 1992 U.S. est. output of
sulfur dioxide (20 mill. tons) was equivalent to the entire output by the recent
eruption of Mt. Pinautubo(Sp.).  Currently world carbon dioxide levels set at approx.
360 ppm, in the past 120,000 years it has never gone above 280 (this info
was found using ice core samples from the joint French/Russian/U.S. Vostok
project).  Furthermore,  the background emmisions of chlorine compounds into
the atmoshpere is about 0.6 ppb annually, it now sits at 3.5.  This OVERWHELMING
data/info is found in the World Resources doc. published by Oxford University.

The ozone hole in the Northern and Southern Hemispheres keeps getting bigger
and stickin' around longer whilst skeptics ponder how wrong or corrupt all this
data from government and international scientific institutions is.  It is a pity, that,
if the skeptics are wrong and we base our complacency on their Limbaugh
psycho babble, then we will find ourselves strapped by limited options with
which to rectify the primal engineering of our industrial age.


A search for illegally held weapons (IF there were any, no evidence yet
produced to this effect) does not justify firing into a house with
women and children, either. It also does not justify shooting first
without identifying oneself (the ATF and FBI have done this before, so
don't say they haven't, please) or producing a warrant.

Guess it depends on whose story one believes, huh?

Which "others" are we talking about here?

"Sub lethal"? Excuse me, but those people are dead!!!

Evidence? So far the FBI has produced none. Don't hold your breath.

Only a few of those being held in chains and s(hackles are wanted .
The rest are being held for the crime of being "material witnesses".

It was not the Feds decision to make, but the firefighters.

This is true of ANY answer to a call for help from a fire department by
ANY citizen. Since fire departments do answer calls that "deprive
resources that might be needed elsewhere" it is not a valid reason for
not calling them.

Further, since the Davidians had not been found guilty of any crime in
a court of law, they are subject to the same protection as any other
citizen. And las far as I know, even criminals in prison are not left to
burn to death in a fire.

I guess this is a matter of religious faith with you? The government
says it, so it must be so? Or haven't you been reading this thread well
enough to notice that some of us here don't beleive their story?

Patients in psychiatric hospitals are not left to die in fires, either.
Besides, as I explained, some of us here believe their distress might
have been genuine. Are you SO certain it wasn't?

There is no evidence that the Davidians committed human sacrifice
either before of after the initial raid. And self-defense is not
murder.

He did not say it was deliberate. Accidents do not require conspiracy
theories, only wanton disregard for human life. The initial raid alone
(agents firing blind into walls against all standards of law enforce-
ment procedure) proves they did not mind killing people.

No one here is "supporting Koresh". We are opposing the illegal use of
excessive violence by our government against our citizens. That is all.

A society that believes it is OK to terrorize people for their religious
views will destroy itself in due time. It is the feds who disrupted the
"fabric of society" in Waco, not Koresh. It is the feds who forced a
nightmare onto the people of Mount Carmel.

On what basis do you assume we haven't? Don't you really mean
"It would be a good thing if people drew the same conclusions from
history that I do?" :-)

"Militant" implies acts of aggression against one's neighbors. The
Davidians left their neighbors alone.

.religious heretics who left to set up such a community

So what? The Mormons were considered a "cult" for years, and were chased
out of one place after another on much the same thinking as you are
advocating. When they finally got to "set up a community" they left
people alone. So far Americans haven't been put to the sword by Mormon
hordes crying to avenge Joseph Smith. :-)

It doesn't mean they won't either. Anyway, the whole purpose of a
system of laws is to punish people for what they DO, not what they
MIGHT do.

"Telling" is not the same as "forcing". When the police knock at my
door, I cannot make them go away by changing the channeI. As for Pat
and friends, I don't even WATCH their channel, since I am an atheist.
So far, not watching them tell me what to do hasn't gotten me killed :-)

Right now, the only people sticking guns in anyone's faces is the
government. And they are trying very hard to run my life. Or
haven't you noticed?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Oh, yeah.  This is a fine place.  We haven't had the "why does concrete
kill lead-acid batteries" thread in at least six months.

The concrete simply sucks all the electrons out of the battery and drains
them into the ground.

Another explanation, implausible as it is,  is that the lead-acid battery
needs to be periodically charged (topped-off), otherwise the battery
self-discharges and then undergoes irreversible chemical reaction.

Naawwwww.... the concrete sucks the life out.


(deletion)

Bogus. I just said that theism is not the only factor for fanatism.
The point is that theism is *a* factor.

That's a claim you have to support. Please note that especially in the
field of theism, the leaders believe what they say.

That's a straw man. And as usually in discussions with you one has to
repeat it: Read what I have written above: not every theism leads to
fanatism, and not all fanatism is caused by theism. The point is,
there is a correlation, and it comes from innate features of theism.

Gullibility, by the way, is one of them.

And to say that I am going to forbid religion is another of your straw
men. Interesting that you have nothing better to offer.

That's bogus. Self reference is not circular. And since the evaluation of
usefulness is possible within rational systems, it is allowed.

Your argument is as silly as proving mathematical statements needs mathematics
and mathematics are therfore circular.

I've been speaking of religious systems with contradictory definitions
of god here.

An axiomatic datum lends itself to rational analysis, what you say here
is a an often refuted fallacy. Have a look at the discussion of the
axiom of choice. And further, one can evaluate axioms in larger systems
out of which they are usually derived. "I exist" is derived, if you want
it that way.

Further, one can test the consistency and so on of a set of axioms.

what is it you are trying to say?

Using the traditonal definition of gods. Personal, supernatural entities
with objective effects on this world. Usually connected to morals and/or
the way the world works.

Person A believes system B becuase it sounds so nice. That does not make
B true, it is at best a work hypothesis. However, the content of B is that
it is true AND that it is more than a work hypothesis. Testing or evaluating
evidence for or against it  therefore dismissed because B (already believed)
says it is wronG/ a waste  of time/ not possible. Depending on the further
contents of B Amalekites/Idolaters/Protestants are to be killed, this can
have interesting effects.


   >If this idea goes through, it's the thin end of the wedge.  Soon
   >companies will be doing larger, and more permanant, billboards in the
   >sky.  I wouldn't want a world a few decades from now when the sky
   >looks like Las Vegas.  That would _really_ make me sad.

   Think for a moment about the technology required to do that.  By
   the time they could make the Earth's sky look like Las Vegas,
   the people could afford to go backpacking on the Moon. Round
   trip costs for 500 kg to the Moon would be about the same as
   5000 kg in a Low Earth "advertising" orbit: Very roughly the
   same cost as a smallish billboard, therefore. If such ads were
   to become common place, that would have to be a very low price...

This is nonsense.  Its like saying that by the time commercials
on television become commonplace every citizen will have their own
hour long nationally broadcast TV program.

   There's always been a problem of having to get
   away from civilization before you can really find "natural"
   scenery. 100 years ago, this usually didn't take a trip
   of over 5 miles. Today, most people would have to go 100 miles
   or more. If we ever get to the point where we have billboards
   on orbit, that essentially means that no place on Earth is still
   "wild." While that may or may not be a good thing, the orbital
   billboards aren't the problem: They are just a symptom of
   growing, densely-populated civilization. Banning such ads will
   not save your view of the night sky, because by the time
   such ads could become widespread you will probably have trouble
   finding a place without street lights, where you can _see_
   the stars...

The rest of your post is strange mishmash of "its already really bad"
and "it doesn't really matter if it gets worse."  You should try to
figure out what you are really arguing for.  (Kneejerk anti-environ-
mentalism?)

-david


If you check the news today, (AP) the "authorities also found a state-of-the-art
automatic machine gun that investigators did not know was in the cult's arsenal."
[Carl Stern, Justice Department]

I imagine the authorities know the difference between semi and fully automatic
and probably knew weather the guns were legal as they have access to any relative
documentation (i.e. permits).  In addition the .50 caliber guns (plural) were
semi-automatic rifles.


Here we are with the Sabres up 2-0 to the Bruins and the Sabres' farm
team, the Rochester Amerks, on their way to the Calder Cup (urp!) and
what kind of hockey coverage are we getting? The same Penguins/Devils
every other day crap that everyone else gets. What's worse, the
SportsChannel coverage of the Islanders appears to be blocked out,
since we got CBA basketball last night, if you can believe it.  I
assume the Sabres are demanding the SC blackout, not ESPN, since we
are, unbelievably, usually considered part of the Islanders territory
(MSG coverage of the Rangers is blacked out here). This despite being
a solid seven hours plus from Long Island.

Does anyone know what GRC is doing, besides putting their satellite
dish up their ass and screwing my reception of channels 8, 10, and 13?
Did Empire demand a fortune for the games? What about the games on
Fox37 (or whatever number it is there in Buffalo)? Has anyone phoned
to complain (besides me)?

George


We just received an AppleOne Color Scanner for our lab.  However,
I am having trouble getting reasonable scanned output when printing
a scanned photo on a LaserWriter IIg. I have tried scanning at a
higher resolution and the display on the screen appears very nice.
However, the printed version is coming out ugly!

Is this due to the resolution capabilities of the printer?  Or are
there tricks involved to get better quality?   Or should we be
getting something (like PhotoShop) to "pretty up" the image?
I will appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks in advance,

-Kris


Correct, we have no parallax measurements on the bursts.

Therefore, we can't tell whether they're slightly extra solar
or not!

(which means that parallax can't tell us whether or not it's real close.)


This week, many of you have asked about my earlier postings on OT, NT and
Intertestiment exegesis on the homosexual issue.  I have refered you to the FAQ
files, which I find out, no longer contains them.  They are too long for me to
mail to each of you, each article, but will try to get them back on the FAQ
file.

Because of the renewed interest on this subject, I will type, with permission,
an article by James DeYoung.  I think it is one of the best articles that I've
read todate from the conservative position.  I can't post it all at once, so it
will come piece meal and not daily.  After I'm done retyping the entire
article, I will make it available for the FAQ file.  Talk to clh.

Also, for those who can't get through to me, you may try one of these:
REXLEX@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
LEXREX@ALMOND.FNAL.GOV
Loren Senders@ADMAIL.FNAL.GOV

                              THE SOURCE AND NT MEANING
                         OF ARSENOKOITAI, WITH IMPLICATIONS
                         FOR CHRISTIAN ETHICS AND MINISTRY

                                      James B. DeYoung
                               Professor of New Testament
                         Western Conservative Baptist Seminary
                                      Portland, Oregon

     Traditional interpretation of arsenokoitai ("homosexuals") in 1 Cor 6:9
and 1 Tim 1:10 refers to sexual vice between people of the same sex,
specifically homosexualitiy.  Some restrict the term's meaning to "active male
prostititute," but stronger evidence supports a more general translation,
namely "homosexuals."  More recently the definition "homosexual" has been
opposed on clutural and linguistic grounds, the claim being that the term
"homosexuals" is anachronistic.  In addition, criticism of the traditional
rendering says the term today includes celibate homophiles, excludes
heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts, and includes female homosexuals.
A concern for acts instead of the modern attention to desires was the only
factor in the ancient world.  The foregoing oppositition to the translation of
arsenokoitai by "homosexuals" has a number of debilitating weaknesses.
Finally, this study argues that Paul coined the term arsenokoitai, deriving it
from the LXX of Lev 20:12 (cf. 18:22) and using it for homosexual orientation
and behavior, the latter of which should be an occasion for church discipline
(I Cor 5-6) and legislation in society (1 Tim 1:8-11).

                      *************************************

                                   INTRODUCTION

     Coincident with the rise of the gay rights movement in recent years has
been an increasing focus on the biblical statements regarding homosexuality or
sodomy.    As part of this focus, the meaning of the term arsenokoitai, used
twice by the apostle Paul (1 Cor 6:9,  I Tim 1:10), has received vigorous
scrutiny.    This issue is particularly crucial to contemporary society since
so much of modern ethics is shaped by biblical statements.  More particularly,
the concern over gay rights and the place of gays or homosexuals in the church
and in society require the resolution of biblical interpretation.

     This study of historical, linguistic, and literary matters will survey and
evalutate recent proposals for the meaning of arsenokoitai and present evidence
to point to a resolution.  Several writers and their positions represent the
modern debate on this word.  Three authors, Bailey, Boswell, and Scroggs, have
provoked considerable discussion and significantly encouraged the wider
acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle in society, in the church, and in the
ministry.


Does anyone else make low radiation emission monitors besides NEC?

How do they compare to NECs (quality and emission-wise)?

TIA,

Les


        Interesting that Janet Reno has publically announced that
        we need steal ourselves for more Wacos.  I wonder if I can
        get the gasoline concession.

     Yup.  Kill that bastard!

     Ah, yes.  The ILLEGAL helicopter, searchign for the non-existent
     PCP lab.  I remember it well, even if the media ( and y'all ) tell
     me I don't.  Call me Winston.

      Ahhh, yes.  The "non-existent" canisters.  Call me Winston again.

     I did too, but for different reasons.  The FBI has a habit of burning
     up people in fortified areas.

      Yup.  Good.  Dead.  YEAH!   Maybe Janet will do some more, just
      like she's promis, er, WARNED us about.

      Like I told y'all before.  I would SERIOUSLY consider the following:


I believe it is illegal to send any cryptographic code out of the country
without an export license. (Others will correct me if this is inaccurate.)

Dunno if you'd get one for the particular code you have; the only way to
find out is to apply for a license.

Note that you need to distinguish between what is legal to send to Canada if
YOU have such a license, and what is legal to send if you don't.


Am I correct in assuming that the science instruments buffer their acquired
data in onboard RAM, which is then downloaded upon receipt of the MRO command?


This is also being replied to via e-mail.  I dialed my university
librarian, and he looked it up:

Loma Linda University Medical Center
Loma Linda, CA 92350

I don't know an Internet address for them, but they can be reached by
telephone at (714) 824-4300.

Good luck.


: Hello

: I've got an old Trident 8800CS SVGA card, but lacking suitable drivers
: for windows 3.1. The drivers for the 8900 series seem to be incompatible.
: Does anyone have an idea of where to get these drivers? Address for an
: ftp-site would be nice.

: Thanks in advance

: Jouni

: _______________________________________________________________________________
: Jouni Marttila - Yo-kyl{ 11 B 25,  20540 Turku,  FINLAND - +358 21 374624____
: jmarttila@abo.fi - jmarttila@finabo - abovax::jmarttila - jjmartti@utu.fi__
: PGP-key available via finger jmarttila@abo.fi ___________________________

You can find the drivers at wuarchive.wustl.edu in the /msdos/windows3 sub-
directory.  I think the files are called "tvgawin31a.zip" and "tvgawin31b.zip."
Those are the latest drivers available as far as I know.


Here are the ones I can remember offhand:

     KDKA    1020 AM   Pittsburgh Penguins
     WABC     770 AM   New Jersey Devils
     WBBM     780 AM   Chicago Blackhawks
     WJM (?)  720 AM   Detroit Redwings
     KMOX    1120 AM   St. Louis Blues

Are the Flyers on 1210?
That's all I can think of.


I've got a very nice collection of historical books on medical quackery,
and on the topic of massage this is a recurring theme.  Ordinary massage
is intended to make a person feel better, especially if they have muscular
or joint problems.  But -- like chiropracty -- there are some practitioners
who take the technique to a far extreme, invoking what seems to me to be
quack science to justify their technique.

In the case of massage, there is a technique called "deep abdominal massage"
in which the masseur is literally attempting to massage the intestines!
The notion is that undigested food adheres to the inner surface of the
intestines and putrifies, releasing poisons which cause various disease
syndromes.  By this vigorous and painful procedure, it is alleged that
these deposits can be loosened up and passed out.


On the subject of the V4,Ford in the UK used V4 engines exstensively in
their Ford Transit vans.This brings back a memory from the seventies.I
played in a band at the time and for something like 180 pounds four of
us bought a 1967 "tranny" to cart the gear around in.It was in terrible
shape (cosmetically) because it's last owner was a pig farmer.We spent
days cleaning it up and putting in a partition and more seating but 'til
the day it died everytime you turned on the fan to the defroster dried
pig shit came flying out the vents!!!.
    Back to the engine if I remember right it was a 1600cc V4 and that
thing could haul,we could fill it with equipment and up to 8 people and
it went like a bat out of hell,of course there were no pollution controls
on the engine and the gas was leaded and higher octane than we get now.
    When the mechanical fuel pump quit we put in an electric one from a
Morris Minor that worked great. Ah fond memories.


        Heck, I seem to feel like that *every* time I eat out. Including
in the cafeteria at work. About half the time, the headache intensifies
until nothing will make it go away except throwing up. Ick.

        As you might imagine, I don't eat out a lot. I guess my tolerance
for food additives has plummeted since I switched to eating mostly
steamed veggies. They're easy to fix, that's all.

        I won't even mention what happened the last time I ate corned
beef. (Oops. Too late.)


( I AGREE ! )

	I think the problem here is that Mrs. Reno strikes me
( After watching NightLine Last night ) as a person who is incapable
of understanding OR dealing with a great number of things.


The following comics are for auction.  The highest bid takes them!

TITLE                                                   Minimum/Current
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alpha Flight 51 (Jim Lee's first work at Marvel)	$ 5.00

Aliens 1 (1st app Aliens in comics, 1st prnt, May 1988)	$20.00/KrisM./SOLD

Amazing Spider-Man 136 (Intro new Green Goblin)         $20.00

Amazing Spider-Man 238 (1st appearance Hobgoblin)	$50.00

Archer and Armstrong 1 (Frank Miller/Smith/Layton)	$ 7.50

Avengers 263 (1st appearance X-factor)                  $ 3.50

Bloodshot 1 (Chromium cover, BWSmith Cover/Poster)	$ 5.00/Same/THREE

CyberRad 1 (Reintro CyberRad, Prestige silver edition)	$15.00

Daredevil 158 (Frank Miller art begins)                 $35.00

Dark Horse Presents 1 (1st app Concrete, 1st printing)	$ 7.50

Detective 657 (Azrael appears, Intro Cypher)		$ 5.00

Detective 658 (Azrael appears)				$ 4.00

Harbinger 10 (1st appearance H.A.R.D. Corps)		$ 7.00/B.Matthey/SOLD

H.A.R.D. Corps 1 					$ 5.00

Incredible Hulk 324 (1st app Grey Hulk since #1 1962)	$ 7.00

Incredible Hulk 330 (1st McFarlane issue)		$15.00

Incredible Hulk 331 (Grey Hulk series begins)		$11.00

Incredible Hulk 367 (1st Dale Keown art in Hulk)        $15.00

Incredible Hulk 377 (1st all new hulk, 1st prnt, Keown) $15.00

Marvel Comics Presents 1 (Wolverine, Silver Surfer)     $ 7.50

Marvel Presents (Charleston Chew giveaway, Sam Keith)	$ 5.00

Maxx Limited Ashcan (4000 copies exist, blue cover)	$33.50/BrentB/SOLD

Mr T. #1 (Signed Advance copy, 10,000 exist)		$10.00

New Mutants 86 (McFarlane cover, 1st app Cable - cameo)	$10.00

New Mutants 100 (1st app X-Force)                       $ 5.00

New Mutants Annual 5 (1st Liefeld art on New Mutants)	$10.00

Omega Men 3 (1st appearance Lobo)                       $ 7.50

Omega Men 10 (1st full Lobo story)                      $ 7.50

Power Man & Iron Fist 78 (3rd appearance Sabretooth)    $20.00

Power Man & Iron Fist 84 (4th appearance Sabretooth)    $15.00

Simpsons Comics and Stories 1 (Polybagged special ed.)	$ 7.50

Spectacular Spider-Man 147 (1st app New Hobgoblin)      $12.50

Spider-Man Special (UNICEF giveaway, vs Venom)		$10.00

Star Trek the Next Generation 1 (Feb 1988, DC mini)     $ 7.50

Star Trek the Next Generation 1 (Oct 1989, DC comics)   $ 7.50

Trianglehead #1 (Special limited edition, autographed)	$ 5.00

Web of Spider-Man 29 (Hobgoblin, Wolverine appear)      $10.00

Web of Spider-Man 30 (Origin Rose, Hobgoblin appears)   $ 7.50

Wolverine 10 (Before claws, 1st battle with Sabretooth)	$15.00

Wolverine 41 (Sabretooth claims to be Wolverine's dad)	$ 5.00

Wolverine 42 (Sabretooth proven not to be his dad)	$ 3.50

Wolverine 43 (Sabretooth/Wolverine saga concludes)	$ 3.00

Wolverine 1 (1982 mini-series, Miller art)		$20.00

Wonder Woman 267 (Return of Animal Man)                 $12.50

X-Force 1 (Signed by Liefeld, Bagged, X-Force card)     $20.00

X-Force 1 (Signed by Liefeld, Bagged, Shatterstar card) $10.00

X-Force 1 (Signed by Liefeld, Bagged, Deadpool card)    $10.00

X-Force 1 (Signed by Liefeld, Bagged, Sunspot/Gideon)   $10.00

All comics are in near mint to mint condition, are bagged in shiny
polypropylene bags, and backed with white acid free boards.  Shipping is
$1.50 for one book, $3.00 for more than one book, or free if you order
a large enough amount of stuff.  I am willing to haggle.

I have thousands and thousands of other comics, so please let me know what
you've been looking for, and maybe I can help.  Some titles I have posted
here don't list every issue I have of that title, I tried to save space.


This is something I've always found a little curious. I've never quite understood
the trinity thing. On the one hand, Jesus is supposed to be God incarnate. But,
at the same time, he is God's son "For God so loved the world that he gave his
only begotten son". First question is, if Jesus was God in human form, how could
he really be God's son? If the Holy Ghost "planted the seed" in Mary, so to speak,
then it seems that Jesus' relationship to God would be the equivalent to the
human father/son relationship. While a son might inherit alot of the father's
qualities, he is not the father. They are still two separite entities. To try
and say that a son is the same person as the father is obviously wrong. In that
case, Jesus and God aren't the same. On the other hand, if their relationship
isn't the same as the human father/son relationship, but Jesus is actually God
incarnate, then he's not really God's son and he never was. He's just God
manifesting himself as Jesus. At least, this is how I'm seeing it. Can someone
who is more knowledgeable about the trinity enlighten us?

Getting back to the original question, what is the great price that Jesus paid
to redeem our sins? Was it dying on the cross? Since Jesus knew that he would
rise again in 3 days and then ascend back to heaven, I have a hard time seeing
how this is considered paying such a great price for humanity. His earthly body
may have been killed, but then, so what? He suffered a few hours of physical
pain, but then, there has been many a human who has suffered a great deal more.
The fact that Jesus was God's only begotten son doesn't seem to me to have much
meaning since God can beget as many sons as he wants to. Jesus being the only
one was simply a matter of choice. I suspect that these questions will be very
offensive to many Christians on this net. To those people, please accept my
sincere apologies. It is not my intention to offend or to trivialize Christ.
But, I do believe these are legitimate questions and I am genuinely curious.

[Note that the Trinity and Incarnation have to be looked at together.
First, your reading of the Virgin Birth is an uncommon one.  (In this
group, it's dangerous to say that no one believes something.)  You
seem to be suggesting the Jesus is God's son in a physical sense,
with the Holy Spirit as Father and Mary as Mother.  I consider that
terrible heresy, though some people react less violently.  The Virgin
Birth says that Jesus' birth is God's responsibility.  But it doesn't
imply that God's sperm was involved.  Indeed one (though by no means
the only) speculation is that God used Joseph's genetic material.

Second, Jesus is in some sense doubly indirect from the Father.  In a
Trinitarian context, the term Son refers to the eternal Logos, who is
a part of God.  The Son didn't come into existence with Jesus' birth.
Jesus is the incarnation of the Son.  So his sonness isn't
specifically a result of being incarnated.  Rather, it's the Son
who was incarnated.


This was a concession to Mansbridge and CBC News, they argued that if you're
going to play  havoc with the schedule, you should  at least make sure that
Prime Time is aired as soon as possible. News got a commitment that the
post-game show would be scrapped and that the network would go to PTN within
one minute or so of the game  ending.

As for the earlier comments about CBC being "Ontariocentric" frankly
the no doubleheader decison goes both ways, people in the West cant  see
the Leafs  and people in Central Canada can't see the Jets game. The
reason for the decision was CBC's feeling they couldn't sell advertising
for six hours of hockey in  one night.

 As for who wants to see news over hockey, a lot of people. CBC always gets
plenty of complaints about juggling the news schedule.


I'm looking for recommendations for a laser printer.  It will
be used mostly for text by a single user.  It doesn't need to
be a postscript printer.  Any advice would be appreciated.


Charlie Brett's suggestion -- buy one of the disposable flash cameras, use
the film, then take the thing apart -- is a good one.  Note, though, that
you won't get a particularly precise voltage out of such a thing, and it
may be a single-point design that won't adapt well to off-nominal operation.

The things are easy to dismantle.  The key piece of information is that
when you advance the film on one of them, you are winding it *into* the
film cassette -- it is unwound from the cassette in the factory, when
the camera is made.  So no darkroom is needed for dismantling.  It's
standard film, so just take the cassette in for processing.

All the camera-store people do when you bring in one of the disposables
is rip it apart, toss the film cassette into the to-be-processed bin,
and throw the battery in one trashcan and the rest of the camera in
another.  If you take it apart yourself, you get an AA alkaline battery
(still with a fair bit of life in it) and all kinds of little bits and
pieces from the camera.

I expect you could even re-load and re-use the camera if you were really
determined.


Well, they never should have gotten into this situation.

Look at the history of this group. David Koresh has been arrested
?twice?  by local police. Both times, he accepted the arrest warrant
and went peacefully. So, the feds decide to arrest him. How do they
choose to arrest a person with a record of peaceful obedience under
arrest? They throw a concussion grenades at his building.

In addition, we KNOW that we've been lied to. Initially, we were told
that they suspected him of molesting children and having several
wives. But these are NOT ATF offenses, were they? So they changed
their story, several times. And the original warrant is STILL sealed.
And we were told about the rockets and ammunition they had... but did
anyone notice any ammo exploding in the fire? They claimed that Koresh
hadn't left the compound in months... but people in town report seeing
him just a week before the raid.

How would I have handled it differently?

Well, first, I haven't seen any evidence that the BDs did anything
wrong. There's a sealed warrant, and a collection of stories which
keep changing about what they did. So I might not have done ANYTHING.

OK. Now, supposing that I know what the BDs are being arrested for.
Well, they've got a history of accepting arrests... so, I send
officers to the door with a warrant. Wearing bulletproof vests.
Covered from a distance by sharpshooters. Now, there's no good reason
to suspect that these people will do anything, right? Why didn't
anyone TRY serving a warrant?

OK. Going further. They refuse the warrant. It becomes necessary to
raid. You plan a raid. You hear an hour before that there was a leak,
and they know your coming. SO what do you do?  Well, change your
plans, right? Nope... they go ahead with it anyone... including
sending in unprotected men to break into the place. It was idiotic. I
don't know what I would have ended up doing. But that original raid
should NEVER have happened.

The shit that came later should NEVER have happened.

The full record of the raid should be released to the public to let us
know what the hell really happened there.

The lies should NEVER have been told.

	<MC>


I am urgently looking for the following article, but I can't seem to
find it anywhere here:

     "The Multi-Threaded X Server"
     John Allen Smith
     The X Resource
        Issue 1, pp. 73-89, Winter 1992

If anyone can tell me where to find it, it WILL be much appreciated.

H.F. Sadie
Departement of Computer Science
University of Stellenbosch
South Africa


: In article <1993Apr22.170418.15799@news.eng.convex.com> gardner@convex.com

...cascades elided to preserve our sanity....

: That wasn't my point. My point is that your implied position about the "Waco
: Massacre" is an assertion cum political position. According to a CNN poll,
....
: What you call the "Big Brother Chip" is right now a proposal under
: discussion, and it is not yet clear that strong crypto is going to be
: banned.

Just to set the record straight, Steve Gardner was not the author of
the bit you quoted--I was. Steve just took issue with David's
characterization of my words as "pernicious nonsense."

I won't further comment on my own views...folks either support 'em or
they don't, and the lines in question were neither central to the
points I was making in my original post nor to the important debate
here in sci.crypt and elsewhere.

-Tim May, who continues to hold the same views but doesn't feel like
debating politics


:
: >Recently my cousin got a second internal IDE drive (a Seagate 210MB,
: >I can look up the model number if it's important) and I've been
: >trying to help him install it.  [I've got a vested interest, since
: >my machine's busted and I have to use his until I get mine fixed.]
: >He already has a Seagate 85MB IDE HD (again, I forget the model number
: >but I can find out.)
:
: >Anyway, I can't seem to get the bloody thing up.  I've managed to get
: >one or the other drive up (with the other disconnected), but not both
: >at the same time; whenever I try, the thing hangs during bootup -
: >never gets past the system test.  The IDE controller's instruction
: >sheet says it supports two drives; I think I've configured the CMOS
: >correctly; the power's plugged in properly; I even learned about the
: >master/slave relationship that two HDs are supposed to have (didn't
: >know PCs were into S&M! 8^) and I think I configured the jumpers
: >properly (the 85MB one is the master, the new 210MB one is the slave).
:
[deleted]
:
: >Many, many thanks in advance!  This is practically an emergency (I have
: >two papers to do on this thing for Monday!)!  Help!
: >--
: >-----------------------
: >William Barnes         SURAnet Operations
: >wbarnes@sura.net       (301) 982-4600 voice  (301) 982-4605 fax
: >Disclaimer:  I don't speak for SURAnet and they don't speak for me.
: I've been told by our local computer guru that you can't do this unless you
: perform a low level format on your existing hard drive and set your system
: up for two hard drives from the beginning.  I took him at his word, and I
: have not tried to find out any more about it, because I'm not going to back
: everything up just to add another HDD.  If anyone knows for sure what the
: scoop is, I would like to know also.  Thanks in advance also.
:
: Bill Willis
:

1. do not do a low level format on an IDE drive unless you have the
   executable for doing so supplied by the manufacturer.  These are
   available from bbs's or mail but the mail version costs a nominal
   fee.

2. In addition to the master/slave jumper on an IDE drive there is also
   another jumper to indicate whether a slave is present.  Get it right!

3. The cabling is not an issue as long as pin 1 goes to pin 1 goes to
   pin 1.  No twisting or swapping on an IDE cable.  Be sure of pin 1
   on all three components - do not make assumptions (guesses are ok
   but assumptions are bad).

4. If the cable and jumpers are correct, and the CMOS setup is correct,
   then you may have to do an FDISK followed by a high level format.
   I have NEVER personally found this necesary, but perhaps there is
   something gone wrong with the data on the disks?  Probably not but
   I understand your predicament - You will probably throw salt over
   your shoulders, wear funny clothes and do a spooky sounding chant
   while dancing around the room if someone said it might help.

Good Luck


What???  I heard there was a new engine slated for the mustang...something
like 280hp  (ok, it was from one of their other lines...)...

--


WOW!  Another Clayton wannabe.  Typical response: lack of logic.

Define 'deviant':  someone who deviates from the normal.  Ok, so far.
Define 'normal':   erm, umm.  If you define yourself as normal then it is for
you to prove that you are (within limits, which then brings in the question,
what are the limits?  For you we may have to broaden them to other's intolerance
;-) ) 'normal'.  Difficult to prove.  From what you have posted it must follow
that `normal` to you means someone without compassion and a sense of justice.
But it does look as if you went to the Clayton school of logic, doesn't it?

Again an astounding lack of logic!  Wow!

You must define what you say such that everyone agrees.  Here you have used
the phrase "sexual deviant".  How in the hell do you define that?  As someone
who does something sexually that _you_ don't?  By this definition you most
probably mean the majority of the planet.  How do you know that your next
door neighbour doesn't like custard to be spread over his genetalia then
have it licked off by his wife?  Is this sexual deviancy?  How do we know
that you don't like something sexually which others may find repulsive?  Is
having sex doggy fashion a sexual deviancy?  Please be more specific, and
where you do, back up your claims.  Or I may have to go to hospital due to
laughing too much at yours and Clayton's postings.

Secondly, if we assume for the moment that the phrase 'sexual deviant' means
such people as homosexuals, bisexuals &c. (basically everyone you don't like),
I think that your phrase "do not comprise a `political minorit[y]`" (why the
brackets?) is a non-sequiteur.  Gay groups exist which lobby their governments.
That is a fact.  Prove it false.  Hence they are a politial group.  You
state that they are not a political minority.  Are they therefore a
political majority?  I think you boobed really big on this one.  Try thinking
about your arguments.

Prove the first statement please.   Dates, phone numbers, &c.

Again your logic fails.  Again you make statements which you cannot
(and most probably will not) maintain.

You state that a person (girl, in this context) who considers equal rights
for all humans to be an airhead?  As Clayton (your best mate?) would say:
it just shows how screwed up you are.

Proof please.  Proof that homosexuality is not part of the natural order.
Proof that nature has always asserted itself.  Are you saying that nature
is a conciousness?  Are you pretending that you have the ability to see the
future?  Are you god(tm)?  In fact, by your arguement, are you waiting for
the black people to become slaves again?  Because they were reviled as
sub-human (nb: *not* my view) at one time?  Again your arguement falls
on its ass.

Touchy touchy touchy!

Right.  I have shot holes in each and every one of your arguements.  You are
most probably going to put me in your kill file because you have no answers
to my questions and challenges.  Since you cannot support your arguments it
merely goes to show that what you write is based upon your personal prejudices,
and cannot be taken to be fact of any kind.

I await an intelligent response.....


  mark> *WE* are the ones in control of what we use.  It is those who
  mark> follow like blind sheep which cause the markets to skew.  I'm sure
  mark> there will be enough "paid market hipe NT conferences" without it
  mark> needing to be in what was once a conference for open windowing
  mark> enviroments.  I know that if I were planning to go I would cancel.
  mark> NOT because I have my eyes closed, but because NT does not belong
  mark> at such a conference.  I would, however, like to go to a CLOSED
  mark> environment NT conference to see the product because I am curious.
  mark> I doubt, however, based on the objective opinions of those I trust,
  mark> that I would be impressed.  --

Why do many (?) people believe that Xhibition '93 is one of the "paid
market hype NT conferences" (as you put it)? I for one am going, because
I, too, am curious about the technology. I think this is a great chance
to learn about NT, mainly because:

  - It will be presented in X's "home turf". I believe that the attendees
    will mostly have X backgrounds (biases? :-); thus, I expect that the
    NT presentations will face a tough audience.

  - I can be there in person to judge for myself whether or not NT is what
    it is hyped to be. This is as closely as I can get to in evaluating the
    NT technology without actually using it myself, which I don't have the
    time to do.

  - If NT turns out to be a vapor technology and I get bored, there will be
    many other interesting tutorials/presentations that I won't have to
    waste my time ... in California?!?  :-)

Just my thoughts...
--