since at least one other person was interested in this:

my FZR's black exhaust pipes are rusty and i researched getting them repaired.
yesterday i bought a can of VHT 1500 degree black header paint and spent an
hour sanding two of the header pipes by hand.  sprayed on paint.  thought
about how clean i was able to get the metal with sanding and determined that
i wouldn't be at all suprised if the paint wore/chipped off in a month.

soooo call a couple of places up in minneapolis and discover that powder
coating, while extremely durable, will not handle over ~600 degree
temperatures.  the place i talked to said they were experimenting with
some new powder that is supposed to handle 1100 degrees but that it wouldn't
be available for months at least.  they directed me to another shop that
specializes in header coating.

the other shop said they have 2 coatings available.  one is aluminized that
can do 1200+ degrees and is "comparable" to powder coating for durability.
the other is silicon (i think) based and can do 1800+ degrees (!) but is
thinner and not as durable.  both coatings have a textured finish (not
super smooth) and should be cleaned with hot water and a brush.

price for 4 1-foot header pipes and a 2-foot 4-2-1 collector was ~$100.  i'm
planning to take the parts up friday and get them back (UPS) next week maybe
wednesday.

sounds to me like this kind of coating stuff should be way better than paint
considering how much abuse the pipes get from road crap/rocks.


Yeah, they finally came to agreement on a contract. As soon as the ink was
dry, he suddenly decided Kansas City was a neat place to be. (ergo, the
"want to play for the national team" was a bargaining chip).


This is normal behavior for these drives (and many other models). The drive
is doing a recalibration -- adjusting for temperature changes. If you leave
the machine on the frequency of the recalibrations goes way down.


   >  This is actually the law that David Irving
   > will hopefully be found guilty under due to his denial of the Holocaust.
   > It's too bad that this useless "Centre for Policy Research" isn't in Canada.
   > It'd set a nice precedent to how the law applies in Cyberspace.
   >
   >   Steve

	   Well canada is wrong. If it was in the US the ACLU would have
   made sure that such repressive laws are found unconstitutional.
   Do you think the Church didn't find Galileo's perception of the
   universe offensive.

Bull shit. There is no reason in the world why we can't say that
taking views analogous to the KKK's or some such organization is
wrong. There is no reason why some morality may not be legislated. As
it is we do not allow theft, or murder, or rape. Why should we allow
hateful sppech whose only purpose is to stir anger and violence.


GT> From: gary@concave.cs.wits.ac.za (Gary Taylor)
GT> Hi, We are trying to develop a image reconstruction simulation for the skull

You could do high resolution CT (computed tomographic) scanning of
the skull.  Many CT scanners have an algorithm to do 3-D
reconstructions in any plane you want.  If you did reconstructions
every 2 degrees or so in all planes, you could use the resultant
images to create user-controlled animation.


Since your criminal grandparents ruthlessly exterminated more than
600,000 Kurds between 1914 and 1916 in Eastern Anatolia. Referring to
notes from the personal diary of Russian General L. Odishe Liyetze on
the Turkish front, he wrote,

"On the nights 11-12 March, 1918 alone Armenian butchers
 bayoneted and axed to death 3000 Muslims in areas surrounding
 Erzincan. These barbars threw their victims into pits, most
 likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish
 Muslims, in groups of 80. My adjutant counted and unearthed
 200 such pits. This is an act against our world of civilization."

On March 12, 1918 Lieut-colonel Griyaznof wrote (from an official
Russian account of the Turkish genocide),

"Roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos,
 dismembered joints and carved out organs of Muslim peasants...
 alas! mainly of women and children."

Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
        by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
        1987, pp. 45-53.
        "Document No: 77," Archive No: 1-2, Cabin No: 10, Drawer
        No: 4, File No: 410, Section No: 1578, Contents No: 1-12, 1-18.
        (Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
        of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
        Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)

"The things I have heard and seen during the two months, until the
 liberation of Erzurum by the Turks, have surpassed all the
 allegations concerning the vicious, degenerate characteristic of
 the Armenians. During the Russian occupation of Erzurum, no Armenian
 was permitted to approach the city and its environs.

 While the Commander of the First Army Corps, General Kaltiyin remained
 in power, troops including Armenian enlisted men, were not sent to the
 area. When the security measures were lifted, the Armenians began to
 attack Erzurum and its surroundings. Following the attacks came the
 plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder
 of the owners of these houses...Plundering was widely committed by
 the soldiers. This plunder was mainly committed by Armenian soldiers
 who had remained in the rear during the war.

 One day, while passing through the streets on horseback, a group of
 soldiers including an Armenian soldier began to drag two old men of
 seventy years in a certain direction. The roads were covered with mud,
 and these people were dragging the two helpless Turks through the mud
 and dirt...

 It was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and
 traps. The Turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds
 and withdrew. The reason was that most of the Turks who were on night
 patrol did not return, and no one knew what had happened to them. The
 Turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear
 also. Finally, the Court Martial which had been established for the
 trials of murderers and plunderers, began to liquidate itself for
 fear that they themselves would be punished. The incidents of murder
 and rape, which had decreased, began to occur more frequently.

 Sometime in January and February, a leading Turkish citizen Haci Bekir
 Efendi from Erzurum, was killed one night at his home. The Commander
 in Chief (Odiselidge) gave orders to find murderers within three days.
 The Commander in Chief has bitterly reminded the Armenian intellectuals
 that disobedience among the Armenian enlisted men had reached its
 highest point, that they had insulted and robbed the people and half
 of the Turks sent outside the city had not returned.

 ...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
 Odishelidge. They were as follows:

 The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
 act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
 More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
 killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless
 Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
 murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood
 near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
 more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
 the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.

 The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
 fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
 Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
 towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
 to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
 destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.

 During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
 that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the
 Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
 were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
 when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
 the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
 of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the
 Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
 have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
 acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
 hatred and loathing.

 Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
 he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
 Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
 stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
 the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
 in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
 of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
 him with the iron heel of his boot.

 Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
 from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
 by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
 children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
 of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:

 There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
 Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
 spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140
 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
 children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
 rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder.

 A few educated Armenian girls, who worked as telephone operators
 for the Armenian troops were called by Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov
 to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be
 proud of what the Armenians had done. To the lieutenant colonel's
 disgusted amazement, the Armenian girls started to laugh and giggle,
 instead of being horrified. The lieutenant colonel had severely
 reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour. When he told
 the girls that the Armenians, including women, were generally more
 licentious than even the wildest animals, and that their indecent
 and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity
 and barbarity, before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers,
 the Armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and
 claimed they had laughed because they were nervous.

 An Armenian contractor at the Alaca Communication zone command
 narrated the following incident which took place on February 20:

 The Armenians had nailed a Turkish women to the wall. They had cut
 out the women's heart and placed the heart on top of her head.
 The great massacre in Erzurum began on February 7... The enlisted men
 of the artillery division caught and stripped 270 people. Then they
 took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts. 100 people
 among this group were able to save their lives as the result of
 my decisive attempts. The others, the Armenians claimed, were
 released when they learnt that I understood what was going on.
 Among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the
 Armenian officers, Karagodaviev. Today, some Turks were murdered
 on the streets.

 On February 12, some Armenians have shot more than ten innocent
 Moslems. The Russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were
 threatened with death. Meanwhile I imprisoned an Armenian for
 murdering an innocent Turk.

 When an Armenian officer told an Armenian murderer that he would
 be hanged for his crime, the killer shouted furiously: 'How dare
 you hang an Armenian for killing a Turk?' In Erzurum, the
 Armenians burned down the Turkish market. On February 17, I heard
 that the entire population of Tepekoy village, situated within
 the artillery area, had been totally annihilated. On the same
 day when Antranik entered Erzurum, I reported the massacre to
 him, and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible
 act. However no result was achieved.

 In the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred, there was a
 natural silence. On the night of 26/27 February, the Armenians deceived
 the Russians, perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the
 Turkish soldiers. Later, it was understood that this massacre had
 been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular.
 The population had been herded in a certain place and then killed
 one by one. The number of murders committed on that night reached
 three thousand. It was the Armenians who bragged to about the details
 of the massacre. The Armenians fighting against the Turkish soldiers
 were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even
 withstand the Turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred
 people and two cannons, for one night, and ran away. The leading
 Armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre.
 However, the Armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with
 the renegades in this massacre, just as in all the others. The lower
 classes within the Armenian community have always obeyed the orders
 of the leading Armenian figures and commanders.

 I do not like to give the impression that all Armenian intellectuals
 were accessories to these murders. No, for there were people who
 opposed the Armenians for such actions, since they understood that
 it would yield no result. However, such people were only a minority.
 Furthermore, such people were considered as traitors to the Armenian
 cause. Some have seemingly opposed the Armenian murders but have
 supported the massacres secretly. Some, on the other hand, preferred
 to remain silent. There were certain others, who, when accused by
 the Russians of infamy, would say the following: 'You are Russians.
 You can never understand the Armenian cause.' The Armenians had a
 conscience. They would commit massacres and then would flee in fear
 of the Turkish soldiers.

 The incidents that occurred only recently clearly manifest the real
 nature of the Armenian ideology. Nothing which is already done can
 be undone."

Serdar Argic


I did it once with a biker-girlfriend in the
car, and she told me that I was stupid, the
rider wouldn't know why I was waving.

...She's long gone...

One.


I got this recipe from a watier on the greek island of samos.
They use it as a spread for bread there butit is excellent on
gyro's as well. By the way, the actual name is tzatziki.
Here is the recipe:

yoghurt, chopped garlic, peeled chopped cucumber, salt, white
pepper, a little olive oil and a little vinegar.

I would love to hear of any other good greek recipes out there.


When will people learn!

The trouble is the ballast in the concrete and as every fool knows Ballast
resistors are used to discharge batteries. Furthermore it is very silly to
store the battery with the terminals downwards as you must have done to
contact the ballast.

Seriously: self discharge (the actual problem, as stated by others) does vary
greatly with certain types and freaks show low self discharge. I have in
fact seen ordinary automotive batteries which have effectively held full
charge for > 2 years so it must be possible.

If your garage is heated, store the batteries somewhere cooler but above
freezing (flat batteries freeze more easily). Occasionally charge it (once a
month?) or even leave it on 'float' charge permanently (special charger,
DON'T do this unless you know what you are doing, seriously dangerous).

Anouther point is the unsuitability of automotive batteries for things like
electric mowers -- they are not generally designed to be repeatedly deep
discharged and their life may be greatly shorted. Some early zero maintenance
automotive batteries in fact responded to a full discharge with total failure
shortly afterwards but modern ones are superb. (6yrs, 95000 miles and
counting)


<come along since the Mazda MPV.  The NISSAN MAXIMA engine paired with
<the rest of the vehicle seems well engineered.  Only the price is


Yes, as a philosophy weak atheism is worthless.  This is true in
exactly the same sense that as a philosophy Christians' disbelief in
Zeus is worthless.  Atheists construct their personal philosophies
from many different sources, building non-god-based ideas in the same
way as Christians build non-Zeus-based ideas of thunderbolts.
Atheists no more *base* their philosophy on atheism than Christians
base theirs on the nonexistence of Zeus.

The "weak atheist" position is logically extremely assailable -- any
logical demonstration of the existence of a god completely destroys it
as soon as the demonstration is made in the presence of a given weak
atheist.  Atheists in this newsgroup are barraged regularly with
attempts to provide such a logical demonstration, and they all fail
miserably.  In fact, most of the people around here who claim the
"strong (as opposed to mathematical) atheist" position do so on this
basis: not only do we not believe in a god, but also all the arguments
presented in favor of particular gods have to date proven unsound;
therefore, one can say that those gods as argued by those arguments do
not exist.  This doesn't apply to such philosophers' gods as are
defined to be logically undemonstrable, but these are not the gods of
popular religion, and the coherence of such claims is quite
questionable.


continuing part #4 (I think); used by permission,

THE SOURCE AND NT MEANING
OF ARSENOKOITAI, WITH IMPLICATIONS
FOR CHRISTIAN ETHICS AND MINISTRY

                                      James B. DeYoung

W. Petersen

     More recently Wright's understanding has itself been questioned from a
different direction.  In a brief 1986 study William Petersen found linguistic
confusion in using the English word "homosexuals" as the meaning of
arsenokoitai.[22]   He faulted Wright and English Bible translaions for
rendering it by "homosexuals" in I Cor 6:9 and I Tim 1:10.

     In a sense Petersen has coalesced Bailey, Boswell, and Scroggs into a
single assertion that reiterates, in effect, the position of Bailey.  He finds
"homosexuals" unacceptable as a translation because it is anachronistic.  "A
major disjunction" exists between contemporary thought and terminology and the
thought and terminolgy in Paul's time (187-88).

      What is this "disjunction"?  He bases it on historical and linguistic
facts.  Accordingly, ancient Greek and Roman society treated male sexuality as
polyvalent and characterized a person sexually only by his sexual acts.
Virtually all forms of behavior, except transvestism, were acceptable.
Christianity simply added the categories of "natural" and "unnatural" in
describing these actions.  Ancient society know nothing of the categories of
"homosexuals" and "heterosexuals," and assumed that, in the words of Dover
quoted approvingly by Petersen, "everyone responds at different times to both
homosexual and to heterosexual stimuli. . ." (188). [23]

      In contrast to this, modern usage virtually limits the term "homosexual"
to desire and propensity.  K.M. Benkert, who in 1869 coined the German term
equivalent to "homosexual," used it as referring to orientation, impluse or
affectional preference and having "nothing to do with sexual acts" (189).

     Petersen then proceeds to cite the "Supplement to the Oxford English
Dictionary,"  which defines "homosexual" only as a propensity or desire with no
mention of acts.  Petersen's point is that by using "homosexuals" for
arsenokoitai, one wrongfully reads a modern concept back into early history
"where no equivalent concept existed" (189).  Consequently the translation is
inaccurate because it "includes celibate homophiles,. . . . incorrectly exludes
heterosexuals who engage in homosexual acts . . . [and]incorrectly includes
female homosexuals" (19=89).  Prior to 1869 there was no "cognitive structure,
either inour society or in antiquity, within which the modern bifurcation of
humanity into 'homosexuals' and 'hetersosexuals' made sence" (189).

     The foregoing clarifies why Petersen feels that the translatio
"homosexual" is mistaken.  Yet is it possible that Petersen is the one
mistaken, on both historical and linguistic or philological grounds?  The next
phases of this paper will critically examine Petersen's position.

                        THE JUSTIFICATION FOR TRANSLATING
                          ARSENOKOITAI BY "HOMOSEXUALS"

Historical Grounds

     A refutation of the foregoing opposition to the traslation of arsenokoitai
by "homosexuals" begins with the historical and cultural evidence.  Since
virtually everyone acknowledges that the word does not appear before Paul's
usage, no historical settings earlier than his are available.  Yet much writing
reveals that ancient understanding of homosexuality prior to and contemporary
with Paul.  The goal is to discover wheither the ancient s conceived of
homosexuality, particularly homosexual orientation, in a way similar to
present-day concepts.

     Peterson, Bailey, Boswell, and Scroggs claim that the homosexual
condition, desire, propensity, or inversion -whatever it is called- cannot be
part of the definition of the term.  They assert this either because the term
is limited to acts of particular kind (Boswell, active male prostitutes;
Scroggs, pederasty) or because the homosexual condition was unknown in ancient
times (Bailey; Petersen).  The following discussion will show why neither of
these positions is legitimate.  Attention will be devoted to the latter postion
first with the former one being addressed below under "Linguistic Grounds."

     In regard to the latter position, one may rightfully ask, did not the
homosexual condition exist before 1869?  Is it only a modern phenomenon? Yet if
it is universal, as alleged today, it must have existed always including
ancient times, even though there is lack of sophistication in discussing it.
Indeed, evidence show that the ancients, pre-Christian and Christian, not only
knew about the total spectrum of sexual behavior, including all forms of
same-sex activity (transvestism included), but also knoew about same-sex
orientation or condition.  Petersen admits (190 n. 10) that Plato in
"Symposium" (189d-192d) may be a "sole possible exception" to ancient
ingnorance of this condition.  He discounts this, however, believing that even
here "acts appear to be the deciding factor."  However, this is a very
significant exception, hardly worthy of being called "an exception," because of
the following additional evidence for a homosexual condition.

     THe "Symposium" of Plato gives some of the strongest evidence for
knowledge about the homosexual condition. [24]   Plato posits a third sex
comprised of a maile-female (androgynon ("man-woman"). Hence "original nature"
palai physis, consisted of three kinds of human beings.  Zeus sliced these
human beings in half, to weaken them so that they would not be a threat to the
gods.  Consequently each person seeks his or her other half, either one of the
opposite sex or one of the same sex.  Plato then quotes Aristophances:

    Each of us, then, is but a tally of a man, since every one shows like
    a flatfish the traces of having been sliced in two;  and each is ever
    searching for the tally that will fit him.  All the men who are sections
    of that composite sex that at first was called man-woman are
    woman-courters;  our adulterers are mostly descended from that sex,
    whence likewise are derived our mancourting women and adulteresses.
    All the women who are sections of the woman have no great fancy for men:
    they are incllined rather to women, and of this stock are the she-minions.
    Men who are sections of the male pursue the masculine, and so long as
    their boyhood lasts they show themselves to be sliced of the male by
    making griends with men and delighting to lie with them and to be
    clasped in men's embrasces;  these are the finest boys and striplings,
    for they have the most manly nature.  Some say they are shameless
    creatures, but falsely:  for their behavior is due not to shamelessness
    but to daring, manliness, and virility, since they are quick to welcome
    their like.  Sure evidence of this is the fact that on reaching maturity
    these alone prove in a public career to be men.  So when they come
    to man's estate they are boy-lovers, and have no natural interest in
    wiving and getting children but only do these things under stress of
    custom;  they are quite contented to live together unwedded all their days.
    A man of this sort is at any rate born to be a lover of boys or the
    willing mate of a man, eagerly greeting his own kind.  Well, when
    one of them -whether he be a boy-lover or a lover of any other sort-
    happens on his own particular half, the two of them are wondrously
    thrilled with affection and intimacy and love, and are hardly to be
    induced to leave each other's side for a single moment.  These are
    they who continue together throughout life, though they could not
    even say what they would have of one another (191d-192c) [25]

Should these two persons be offered the opportunity to be fused together for as
long as they live, or even in Hades, Aristophanes says that each "would
unreservedly deem that he had been offered just what he was yearning for all
the time:  (192e).

     Several observations about this text are in order.  Lesbianism is
contemplated, as will as male homosexuality (191e).  "Natural interest" (ton
noun physei), (192b) refelects modern concepts of propensity or inclination.
The words, "born to be a lover of boys or the willing mate of a man:
(paiderastes te kai philerastes gignetai), (192b) reflect the modern claims "to
be born this," i.e., as homosexual.  The idea of mutuallity ("the two of them
are wondrously thrilled with affection and intimacy and love," 192b) is
present.  Aristophanes even speaks of "mutual love ingrained in mankind
reassembling our early estate" (ho eros emphytos allelon tois anthropois kai
tes archaias physeos synagogeus, 191d). The concept of permanency ("These are
they who continue together throughout life," 102c) is also present.  Further
mention of and/or allusion to permanecy, mutality, "gay pride," pederasty,
homophobia, motive, desire, passion, and the nature of love and its works is
recognizable.

    Clearly the ancients thought of love (homosexual or other) apart from
actions.  THe speakers in the Symposium argue that motive in homosexuality is
crucial;  money, office, influence, etc. . . bring reproach (182e-183a, 184b).
They mention the need to love the soul not the body (183e).  There are tow
kinds of love in the body (186b) and each has its "desire" and "passion"
(186b-d).  The speakers discuss the principles or "matters" of love (187c), the
desires of love (192c) and being "males by nature" (193c).  Noteworthy is the
speech of Socrates who devotes much attention to explaining how desire is
related to love and its objects (200a-201c).  Desire is felt for "what is not
provided or present; for something they have not or are not or lack."  This is
the object of desire and love.  Socrates clearly distinguishes between "what
sort of being is love" and the "works" of love (201e).  This ancient
philosopher could think of both realms -seaual acts as well as disposition of
being or nature.  His wors have significance for more than pederasty. [26]

     In summary, virtually every element in the modern discussion of love and
homosexuality is anticipated in the Symposium of Plato.  Petersen is in error
when he claims that the ancients could only think of homosexual acts, not
inclination or orientation.  Widespread evidence to the contray supports the
latter. [27]

     Biblical support for homosexuality inclination in the contexts where
homosexual acts are discribed adds to the case for the ancient distinction.  In
Rom 1:21-28 such phrases as "reasoning," "heart," "becoming foolish," "desires
of the heart." and "reprobate mind" prove Paul's concern for disposition and
inclination along with the "doing" or "working" of evil (also see vv. 29-32).
Even the catologues of vices are introdiced (I Tim 1:8-10) or concluded (I Cor
6:9-11) by words describing what people "are" or "were," not what they "do."
Habits betray what people are within, as also the Lord Jesus taught (cf. Matt.
23:28).  The inner condition is as important as the outer act; one gives rise
to the other (cf. Mt 5:27).

     Petersen errs regarding other particulars too.  Transvestism apparently
was accepted by the ancients.   It was practiced among Canaaniteds, Syrian,
people of Asia Minor, as well as Greeks, according to S.R. Driver. [28]  Only a
few moralist and Jewish writers are on record as condemning it.  For example,
Seneca (Moral Epistles 47.7-8) condemns homosexual exploitation that forces an
adult slave to dress, be beardless, and behave as a woman.  Philo also goes to
some length to describe the homosexuals of his day and their dressing as women
(The Special Laws III, 37-41;  see also his On the Virtues, 20-21, where he
justifies prohibition of cross-dressing).  Even the OT forbade the interchange
of clothing between the sexes  (Deut 22:5).

     Petersen is also wrong in attributing to Christianity the creating of the
"new labels" of "natural" and "unnatural" for sexual behavior.  These did not
begin with Paul (Rom 1:26-27) but go as far back as ancient Greece and even
non-Christian contemporaries used them.  Plato, the TEST.NAPH., Philo, Josephu,
Plutarch, and others used these words or related concepts. [29]

Linguistic Grounds


The format for Word for Windows doc files is available from Microsoft.
Call their Developer Support Services number (sorry, don't have it handy)
and ask for the Word for Windows binary file format spec.

Warning:  It is not terribly useful, and you will need to do a *lot* of
looking before you can figure out how the stuff is stored.

General primer:

Word for Windows stores its data in two chunks.  The first chunk is the
actual text in the file.  This is all stored together and has nothing
but text and graphics.  The second chunk is the formatting information.

For general use, to read a Word for Windows file, skip the first 384 bytes
of the file (its a general header).  Then read the remaining text until you
hit binary data.


	Do you mean besides the National Guard?

	Outside of military reservations?

	Besides national emergencies?


THE WHITE HOUSE

                    Office of the Press Secretary
_____________________________________________________________________
For Immediate Release                                  April 20, 1993

                            PRESS BRIEFING
                           BY DEE DEE MYERS

                          The Briefing Room

9:47 A.M. EDT

	     MS. MYERS:  Okay, today's schedule.  As you know, the
President jogged this morning with Senator Wofford.

	     At 1:15 p.m., he will have a photo opportunity in the
Rose Garden to present the Teacher of the Year Award.  At 1:30 p.m.,
he will meet with his principal advisors on Bosnia.  And at 5:00
p.m., he'll meet with President Vaclav Havel.  There will be a photo
op at the top of that meeting; no formal press conference afterwards.

	     Any questions?

	     Q	  Is he moving towards some major decision this week
on Bosnia?

	     MS. MYERS:  As we've said, he's continuing to discuss
his options.  He's been talking extensively with his foreign policy
advisors, his Bosnia advisors, as well as with other world leaders.
He'll try to contact President Mitterrand again today, and he'll
continue to discuss it.  We don't have any specific timetable, but
obviously the situation there is very serious.

	     Q	  Has he called Janet Reno today or yesterday?

	     MS. MYERS:  I don't believe he's spoken to her today.

	     Q	  Why does he have nothing to say about this publicly
except on the piece of paper that was put out last night at 6:40
p.m.?

	     MS. MYERS:  He did.  He answered a question about it
yesterday.

	     Q	  Before anything had happened.

	     MS. MYERS:  Before anything happened.  He put out --

	     Q	  Since something has happened he's had nothing to
say.

	     MS. MYERS:  He's put out a statement on it last night.
And we'll have more to say about it later today.

	     Q	  In what forum is that going to be?

	     MS. MYERS:  It will be at the photo in the Rose Garden.

	     Q	  He will talk about Waco at that?

	     MS. MYERS:  Yes, he'll have something to say.

	     Q	  Is that something we can take live?

	     MS. MYERS:  I think it will be brief.  We can talk a
little later about the exact structure as we work it out.  But I
don't know if it's something you'd want to take live.

	     Q	  Will he take questions on Waco at that time as
well?

	     MS. MYERS:  He'll probably take a few.

	     Q	  Is there any reason why he hasn't talked to the
Attorney General?

	     MS. MYERS:  I'll have to double-check.  I don't know
that he hasn't talked to her this morning.

	     Q	  And she didn't come here this morning to see him or
anyone else?

	     MS. MYERS:  No.

	     Q	  And he didn't talk yesterday?

	     Q	  What's the reaction to her resignation statement
that she made last night?

	     MS. MYERS:  She was asked a question about it, and she
answered the question.  The President has absolutely no intention of
asking for the Attorney General's resignation.  He stands behind her
100 percent.  As you know, he was informed about the decision.  He
takes full responsibility for that, and stands 100 percent behind
Attorney General Reno.

	     Q	  The question now arises -- yesterday we were told
that he was briefed on this, but we never got a firm idea of how much
he knew of what the plan was and the justification for the plan and
the justification of the timing.  Was he fully informed on all of
that, all of this about the increasing levels of violence inside the
compound that made them want to go now, the feeling that nothing else
was going to succeed, et cetera?

	     MS. MYERS:  He talked with the Attorney General about
the decision, about -- she talked to him about the factors that led
to her decision.  He raised no objections.  He supports her decision
to go forward with it.  He was fully briefed.

	     Q	  Of course, hindsight is 20-20, but looking back
now, does the President, does the White House feel that the decision
he signed off on proved to be the right way to go when you look at
what actually happened?

	     MS. MYERS:  I think everybody feels bad when life is
lost.  But I don't think that that is reason to second-guess the
decision.  He stands behind the decision that was made.  He was
informed about it.  He was fully briefed about it and he stands 100
percent behind the Attorney General, the Justice Department and the
FBI.  It's a difficult operation and there's -- it had already gone
on for more than seven weeks.  Four federal agents had lost their
lives in the line of duty -- let's not forget that.

	     This was a very difficult situation and all the
decisions involved were very difficult.  But all the agents on the
ground, the FBI, the Justice Department all recommended moving
forward with this.  They thought, given the circumstances, it was the
best possible course of action.  There's just no point in second-
guessing those decisions.  Now, I think that there's a reason --

	     Q	  Why not?  They have to --

	     MS. MYERS:  No, not to second-guess the decisions.  I
think it's important to take a look at it, to have an investigation.
I think the President will talk some about that later today.  But at
this -- from this vantage point, to second-guess those decisions,
it's not useful.

	     Q	  You sound like he's going to order an investigation
of what happened and whether --

	     MS. MYERS:  I think he'll have more to say about that
later, yes.

	     Q	  He will order an investigation?

	     MS. MYERS:  He'll have more -- yes -- he'll have more to
say about an investigation.

	     Q	  What kind of investigation?

	     MS. MYERS:  He'll have more to say about it later.

	     Q	  But in the Monday morning quarterbacking, surely
there is some soul-searching now as to whether it was the right
decision.  You can't say that we did the best we could when it turned
out to be a rather -- a debacle.

	     MS. MYERS:   I think we'll -- obviously, we'll review
the situation and all the factors that lead to a very tragic outcome.
I don't think anybody disputes that the outcome was tragic.  But,
again, the President stands behind the decisions that were made and
we'll take a look at the factors that contributed to that.

	     Q	  What was the FBI Director's role in this?

	     MS. MYERS:  Well, he was obviously involved in setting
up the operation.  He signed off on it, as did the agents that were
on the ground that were working with him.  I don't believe he spoke
to the President, but I'll double-check that.

	     Q	  But he was very closely involved in every aspect of
planning and so forth?

	     MS. MYERS:  I would refer you to the FBI on exactly what
aspects he was involved with.

	     Q	  Will Janet Reno be coming over to the White House
today?

	     MS. MYERS:  There's no planned meeting.  I don't believe
that she'll be here.

	     Q	  She won't be at this event at 1:15 p.m.?

	     MS. MYERS:  No, no plans to be.

	     Q	  Do you think that there's going to be a jumping on
on the part of political opposition to make something out of this in
terms of -- to the President's detriment politically?

	     MS. MYERS:  Well, I would certainly hope that people
wouldn't try to use this tragedy for political reasons.  Obviously, I
think, again, that it's useful to look at the facts, to reevaluate
the facts, and I think the President will move forward with that.
But I think people understand that this was a difficult series of
decisions; that it was a very difficult situation; that it was caused
by a man who was a cult leader who was involved in the death of four
federal agents.   And I think it's most tragic that a lot of innocent

children lost their lives in this.  I don't think anybody disputes
the tragedy of the outcome.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, what was the White House role in handling
the, I guess, public relations aspect  in the aftermath?  Who was
talking -- who here at the White House was talking with people at
Justice to set up Reno's news conference, to do all that sort of
thing?

	     MS. MYERS:  I think the Attorney General handled her end
of the situation herself and made the decision to go ahead with the
news conference once there was a point at which there was enough
information, I think, to talk with some accuracy about what had
transpired during the day.  Obviously, people here at a number of
levels were keeping in touch with people at the Justice Department
and at the FBI to try to keep informed about what was happening
there.

	     Q	  But Reno said that she didn't talk to the
President, and there seemed to be an indication she hadn't talked to
anybody at the White House.  So who --

	     MS. MYERS:  There were people talking on a staff-to-
staff level.

	     Q	  I understand.  But who at the Justice Department
was handling that for Reno?  Who was talking to the White House?

	     MS. MYERS:  There were a number of people.  As you know,
Webb Hubbell is the liaison to the White House, and I know he talked
to a number of people here.  There were a number of people at a
number of different levels involved.  I don't want to get into
exactly who had what conversations with whom, but there were a number
of conversations.  Obviously, the Justice Department was working to
keep the White House informed, the press informed to the best of its
ability as events unfolded throughout the day.

	     Q	  Did Webb Hubbell talk to the President?

	     MS. MYERS:  I don't believe so.  I don't know if he
talked -- he may have at one point.

	     Q	  And was the White House role just to seek
information about what happened, or was it to direct the public
information campaign that followed?

	     MS. MYERS:  It was both to keep abreast of the situation
so the President could be on top of it, but I think the Justice
Department managed its press relations on it.  We were obviously very
interested in what was happening there throughout the day, and the
President was following it very closely throughout the day.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, on that, though, if the President was
following it so closely and he had talked the night before with Janet
Reno, why wouldn't he talk to her at all since then?

	     MS. MYERS:  Again, I don't know if he's talked to her
this morning.  Again, he's kept fully aware of what has been going on
throughout the day.  He stands 100 percent behind her decisions.
He's been fully supportive of her, as he said yesterday morning
before events transpired and yesterday afternoon in a written
statement.

	     Q	  But wouldn't he want to convey those thoughts to
her personally yesterday?

	     MS. MYERS:  One more time, I don't know if they've
spoken this morning.

	     Q	  No, yesterday.

	     Q	  Clearly there's a perception that she was left hung
out to dry all day yesterday.

	     MS. MYERS:  That's just not true.  I think we said
throughout the day that the President takes full responsibility, that
he stands -- I don't know how much clearer we can be.  The President
stands foursquare behind the Attorney General on this.  He accepts
full responsibility for the events that transpired.  He believes that
Janet Reno, the Justice Department, and the FBI acted as best they
could, given the circumstances and the facts that were evident at the
time.  I don't know what else he can say to show that he supports her
1,000 percent.

	     Q	  One of the best indications of that is to pick up
the phone and tell her.

	     MS. MYERS:  Again, I don't know whether they've spoken
this morning.

	     Q	  Why can't we find out?

	     MS. MYERS:  Well, we can.  I can't do it standing here
right now.

	     Q	  You've got six people here.  All they've got to do
is pick up the phone.

	     MS. MYERS:  Helen, we'll get back to you.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, when the President spoke with the Attorney
General on Sunday, is it safe to assume that either she volunteered
or he inquired about whether there was a possible downside to
increasing pressure on the Davidians?

	     MS. MYERS:  I think that they discussed the situation.
Again, I'm not going to get into the specific details of what exactly
she told him, but I think that he was aware of the risks involved.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, the President yesterday morning said it
was entirely her decision.  She then said that she told him what was
happening and he said, okay.  Does the President regard it that he
gave the go-ahead or that she gave the go-ahead?

	     MS. MYERS:  I think what they both said yesterday was
that she made a decision based on all the available facts.  She
informed him about that and he raised no objections.  Again, I don't
know how much clearer we can be about that.

	     Q	  And he said, okay.  The issue is over the
responsibility.

	     MS. MYERS:  He said, okay.

	     Q	   Does okay mean --

	     MS. MYERS:  The President accepts ultimate
responsibility.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, the President's investigation that he's
going to announce -- would that be conducted by someone outside the
administration?

	     MS. MYERS:  No.

	     Q	  It would be internal -- is it meant to preclude any
congressional investigation?

	     MS. MYERS:  No, it's meant simply to follow up on the
incidents that occurred yesterday.

	     Q	  And you would, I assume, therefore, cooperate fully
with any congressional hearings that would be held?

	     MS. MYERS:  To the best of our ability.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, there are two reports out this morning.
One that the Justice Department, or FBI, or whomever, apparently had
a bug planted inside the complex.  And the other is that the children
may have been injected with some kind of poison that may have either
left them unconscious or maybe even killed them before the fire.
What do you know about those two --

	     MS. MYERS:  Nothing more than I've seen in news accounts
this morning.  We may get more on it later, but at this point, I know
-- I'm not sure anybody knows any more than what was reported by
people who came out of the compound.

	     Q	  Has the President received any report today in
terms of fatalities and actually what was going on -- what they've
been able to find out on in the compound now?

	     MS. MYERS:  He's been briefed.  I don't think that
they've gotten into the compound yet.  They were still waiting for it
to cool off.  I don't think there's much beyond what's been reported
in the news accounts.  But he has been kept up-to-date on it.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, the President stands behind Attorney
General Reno, but does he feel that she perhaps got bad advice from
the so-called experts?

	     MS. MYERS:  He believes that she made -- he stands
behind the decision that she made.  It was the unanimous decision of
her advisors, of the FBI, of the agents on the ground, and he
supports that.

	     Q	  What about the validity of the decisions made on
the ground?  Does he back those --

	     MS. MYERS:  He's not going to second-guess decisions
made.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, you just said, he stands behind the
decision which she made.  Normally, in a situation like this, the
President says, I  made the decision.  But you're saying she made the
decision?

	     MS. MYERS:  I'm saying that the President was briefed
about the decision.  He okayed it and he accepts full responsibility
for it.

	     Q	  But then why do you keep using the terminology, the
decision that she made, rather than the decision that he made --

	     MS. MYERS:  Because, as he said yesterday, she evaluated
the facts based on evidence presented to her by Justice Department
and FBI, which is part of the Justice Department, and made a decision
and then briefed the President on that decision.  That is how the
chain of command works.  She briefed him.  He signed off on it.  The
operation went forward, and the President accepts full
responsibility.

	     Q	  In that chain of command analogy there, I want to
go back to Sessions a moment.  Do you know if this was a plan that
came through him to Reno, or was it presented to her around him or
with his involvement?  What was his involvement?

	     MS. MYERS:  Again, you'd have to go to the Justice
Department for the specific interaction between the Attorney General
and the Director.

	     Q	  Does the President stand behind Director Sessions?

	     MS. MYERS:  He supports -- again, I don't know how many
different ways I can say this -- he supports the decisions made by
the Justice Department and the FBI.  He fully supports the Attorney
General in this.  I'm not stepping away from the Director of the FBI,
I want to -- but Janet Reno is the one who briefed him, the one who
made the decisions as the head of the Justice Department.  As you
know, the Director of the FBI reports to the Attorney General.  The
Attorney General made the decision.  She informed the President about
those decisions.  He okayed it.  He didn't raise any objections to
it, and he accepts full responsibility.

	     Q	  Do you have, based on what you know here at the
White House, any concerns about William Sessions' performance during
this --

	     MS. MYERS:  Nothing to suggest that, no.

	     Q	  Along those same lines, just in your initial review
of the situation, how much do you think the problems might have come
from not having a Justice Department that's fully staffed and having
an FBI Director who is still quite uncertain about his status?

	     MS. MYERS:  I just don't think that had anything to do
with it.  I think the agents on the ground -- the operation went
forward.  I'm not going to speculate on that.

	     Q	  Did the White House express any alarm that Janet
Reno chose to speak to the live network media before she chose to
speak to Clinton?

	     MS. MYERS:   No.  She was carrying forward her
responsibility to inform the public about the events of yesterday.  I
think she did a very admirable job.  The President agrees with that.

	     Q	  Before Sunday, how often was the President briefed
on the situation in Waco?

	     MS. MYERS:  He was kept updated on a regular basis, on a
daily basis.

	     Q	  Who briefed the President?

	     MS. MYERS:  Well, I'm not going to get into exactly who,
what conversations he had with whom, but he was kept up-to-date on
the events in Waco.  He has daily briefings on a number of issues.

	     Q	  No, no, was this a regular briefing conducted by a
White House staff person, or was it by a Justice Department person?

	     MS. MYERS:  He's briefed regularly by a White House
staff on a number of issues.  Again, I'm not going to get into
exactly who briefs him on what subjects.

	     Q	  Another subject?

	     Q	  On another subject.

	     Q	  Now we're going to do gays in the military.
(Laughter.)

	     MS. MYERS:  I welcome it.

	     Q	  How close are you to signing the biodiversity
treaty?

	     MS. MYERS:  As you know, the President's giving a speech
on Earth Day tomorrow.  We'll have more to say about it then.

	     Q	  Any details on where or when that speech is yet?

	     MS. MYERS:  It's at 11:30 a.m. and I don't know where
yet.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, is this a major policy address?  How would
you characterize the speech tomorrow?

	     MS. MYERS:  I would characterize it as a Earth Day
speech.  I wouldn't look for any major departures from his past
positions on these things.  But, again, I don't want to get too much
into what he's going to talk about tomorrow.

	     Q	  On or off campus?

	     Q	  Is this at a location outside the White House?

	     MS. MYERS:  It will be somewhere in Washington.  We
don't know exactly where yet.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, what foreign leaders has the President
talked to since Friday on the situation in Bosnia?

	     MS. MYERS:  Only Prime Minister Major.  And again, he'll
try to reach President Mitterrand again this morning.

	     Q	  David Owen said yesterday and Joe Biden said today
-- both of them agree that the peace process is not going to work,
that the Serbs are not going to sign on.  Does the administration
still believe that it can work and that they will sign on?

	     MS. MYERS:  Obviously, the ultimate goal is some sort of
peaceful resolution to the conflict in Bosnia.  As you know, the
administration is considering a wide variety of options at this
point.  The situation there in and around Srebrenica and the rest of
Eastern Bosnia is quite serious.  And the President will meet with
his Bosnian advisors today and continue to press forward on this.

	     Q	  Is that a question they're going to try to be
deciding whether or not the peace plan remains viable?

	     MS. MYERS:  Again, they'll be reviewing a number of
options, including the peace plan.

	     Q	  Does the group that he's meeting with today include
Reg Bartholomew?

	     MS. MYERS:  I don't believe he's here.  But it will be
among the usual -- Secretary Christopher, Secretary Aspin, General
Powell.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, do you have anything on the apparent
encounter by U.S. F-15s over Bosnia today -- some aircraft violating
the no-fly zone?

	     MS. MYERS:  No, I don't.  I'll get back to you on that.

	     Q	  Will the President be meeting with every one of the
leaders coming to town for the Holocaust Museum?

	     MS. MYERS:  He will.  He'll be meeting, as you know,
with Vaclav Havel today and with Lech Walesa tomorrow, and then with
the rest of the group tomorrow afternoon.

	     Q	  As a group, or one by one?

	     MS. MYERS:  I believe it's as a group.  Now, Havel and
Walesa asked for meetings early and these have been on the agenda for
quite some time.  But he will meet with all of the foreign heads of
state that are here.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, has the President decided whether he
supports the gay and lesbian civil rights act?  And has anything been
worked out for him to address the march on Sunday?

	     MS. MYERS:  I think he'll probably have a letter or some
kind of a statement to the march.  We haven't worked out the exact
details of that.

	     Q	  Not a live phone hook-up?

	     MS. MYERS:  Probably not, given the logistics of getting
to Boston.  The speech, as you know, is at 4:00 p.m.  The answer to
the other part of your question is, no, he hasn't taken a position on
it.

	     Q	  You said that speech in Boston was at 4:00 p.m.?

	     MS. MYERS:  I believe so, yes.

	     Q	  Do you know what it's on?

	     MS. MYERS:  We'll still working out --

	     Q	  General Vessey's coming back tonight from Vietnam.
When will he be meeting with the President?

	     MS. MYERS:  No specific meeting is scheduled.  We'll
talk to him at some point and see.  We look forward to his report,
but exactly how he'll make that report is unclear.

	     Q	  So he's not going to come immediately to the White
House?

	     MS. MYERS:  No.

	     Q	  The AIDS czar -- how close are you?

	     MS. MYERS:  Still working on it.

	     Q	  Drug czar?

	     Q	  Do you expect it before the march?

	     MS. MYERS:  I don't have a time line on it.

	     Q	  Did the President ask Senator Mitchell to try the
Lloyd Cutler ploy to break the filibuster?

	     MS. MYERS:  I don't believe so.

	     Q	  Why not?

	     MS. MYERS:  He's just not going to.

	     Q	  Are Senate Democrats here at this hour?

	     MS. MYERS:  No, that's tomorrow -- tomorrow at 9:30 a.m.

	     Q	  Update on the stimulus, possible scaling down --

	     MS. MYERS:  As you know, the Senate will vote on
amendments today.  We'll continue to talk.  The President is
committed to some kind of a jobs package; we'd like to see it passed.
And we'll continue in conversations throughout the day and see where
we end up.

	     Q	  When this briefing is over can you give us word
through the speaker or whatever whether the President's talked to
Janet Reno?

	     MS. MYERS:  We'll be happy to.

	     Q	  It's become a pressing question for the last
several hours.

	     MS. MYERS:  No, just this minute that I've been here,
and I haven't had a chance to follow up on it, Helen.

	     Q	  Does he have an opinion on Hatfield?

	     MS. MYERS:  I mean, obviously, he prefers -- he offered
a compromise package of $12.2 billion.  He believes that that's the
best alternative, believes that he's obviously willing to take a
second look at the package.  And I think the Senate will vote on that
today, and we're hopeful that the President's bill, which will be the
Mitchell amendment, will be the one that will be approved.

	     Q	  Dee Dee, is there any White House official that
will be at the march on Sunday?

	     MS. MYERS:  Somebody will be there representing the
President.  I don't know who yet.

	     Q	  Well, has it been decided how he's going to
address?  Is it going to be a videotape or a phone call?

	     MS. MYERS:  I think it will probably be a letter, but
there hasn't been a final decision on that yet.

	     Q	  The official will read the letter, is that what it
sounds like?

	     MS. MYERS:  Correct.

	     Q	  Lloyd Bentsen came in here this morning.  Do you
know what was that about?  Was that about this Waco thing?

	     MS. MYERS:  No, actually it wasn't.  It may have come
up, but it was about economic issues.

	     Q	  On health care -- is the 17th of May still the
target?

	     MS. MYERS:  That's still the target.

	     Q	  And there's talk about a Joint Session of Congress
speech at the end of May --

	     MS. MYERS:  We haven't resolved exactly how the
President will present the health care plan to the people.  I
wouldn't rule that out as an option, but no decisions have been made.


---
Hello!

We want to configure our X11R5 sytem (i486 33Mhz running BSD-like UNIX)
comming up with a chooser menu with different machines on it (works) an then
connect to them. But the only connection works is localhost!
An 'X -indirect <machine>' works very well!
The configuration:

		- starting the 'xdm' at boot time with no servers specified
		   in Xservers
		- starting the X-server at boot time with X -indirect localhost

	     ---> the chooser menu appears with the machines named in
		  Xacces bye
			'*	CHOOSER <machine1> <machine2> ... BROADCAST
		- the number of users on this machines and the load is
		    displayed correct

		- selecting an other machine than my own host the X-server
		   starts and nothing happens, after a time out the CHOOSER menu
		   appears again.

I know the xdm bug in X11R4, but all machines running X11R5

Please help
			Lars

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Know any Mormons?

Know for a fact that this was happening?  State of Texas says it wasn't,
and they held a trial to prove it.

Sure we can.  The top two things are perfectly legal.  The bottom one
isn't.  The person here who can't distinguish seems to be you.

So the constitution is only for people you approve of.  Fine, fine.
I usually refer to that as "elitism," because "bigotry" is so negative.

Knowing that people like you are out there really gives me warm fuzzies.

--


If I rember correctly, Lotus Notes gives u this possiblity, among other things...


Then post what the press has said, not what you wished they said.
The Medical Examiner has refuted the FBI "facts" and if you don't
believe someone who has a LOT more reason to be impartial then
what do you have to say for yourself.

I was willing to grant this for sake or argument until I read the
following.

The FACTS as reported by the press and impartial government
sources support ME.

There is NO testimony, at the press conference, the FBI said they
had NO testimony, the SURVIVORS as reported by CNN and Newsday
wire service said that ALL the survivors gave consistent stories
refuting the FBI. They were lighting and heating with kerosine.
Are you trying to PROVE you're an idiot.

Then open your eyes and ears, at least 3 of those 4 sources have
reported your full of shit.


Figured it out.  The answer lies in mit/server/ddx/mfb/mfbcustom.h.


They police did not beat King when he was on the ground. They beat him when
he was on his knees trying to get back up. If you had watche d the entire
video you would have seen this.

If you think this is true, much less relevant, than you are in sadder shape
than I thought.


I once had a sparking problem with my '65 Mustang, and simply changing
the spark plug wires fixed it.


Janet Reno killed the Waco children.  She is responsible for
their deaths.  She should resign immediately.  She should have
understood that David Koresh was a madman who would do anything
against the children if he became provoked.  All the warning
signs were there and she ignored them.  She provoked Koresh
into killing the children.

The situation in Waco was similar to a hostage situation with
a madman holding a gun against the head of an innocent person.
In such a situation, a person who provokes the madman and causes
him to pull the gun's trigger is responsible for the death of the
hostage.  Janet Reno blindly stumbled in there and basically
threw a tear gas container at the madman hoping that he would
release the hostage.  It's no surprise that the madman would
pull the trigger in response to that kind of provocation.


--
Pete Norton
peten@well.sf.ca.us
peten@holonet.net
norton@hou.amoco.com


I don't think this will work.  Still the same in space
integration problems,  small modules, especially the Bus-1 modules.
the MOL would be bigger.

Also,  budget problems  may end up stalling developemnt.
A small undersized station wont have the science community support.

Program effeciencies may cut costs,  but the basic problems
with freedom remain.  in space integration,  too many flights
too build.  not enough science retrurn.

Essentialy  $5 billion to build MIR.

I think had NASA  locked onto this design, back in 1984,  with
scarring to support a TRUSS for real expandability,  we'd be looking
at a flying space station.

This looks the most realistic, to me,  IMHO,  but,  i dont know if
there is enough will power  to toss the CDR'd  existing hardware
and then  take a 1/3rd  power cut  and do it this way.

the core  launch station has a lot of positive ideas.  You could stick
in more hatches for  experimental  concept modules.  Like the ET
derived workshops.  Or inflatable modules.

pat

Sad but true.

epitaph.  Killed by mis-management.


   >Remember that they've promised to let a committee of outside experts see
   >the cryptosystem design.

   I hope there are some silicon jocks on the committee who can follow
   the algorithm through to hardware.  While I doubt the NSA would pull
   any monkey business on this point -- they have to expect that the
   chip will be reverse-engineered sooner or later -- it's an obvious
   opportunity to introduce additional holes.

The chip isn't the place to pull the monkey business - you do it in
the key generation, either by having a mathematical backdoor,
or by having the program on the laptop that supposedly generates the
keys also save a copy of S1 and S2 and leak it out somehow,
or by having the program that supposedly puts the official keys
on the chip actually put a *different* key there (VERY hard to detect,
since the escrow agents have to either trust the NSA laptop or
give each other the S* keys, and they still don't know the algorithm.)
Or have the chip-burner at the factory make copies of the keys.
Or whatever.


A mileage chart should be available in the book.  It usually goes by
the class of car you own and year.  Usually you will end up adding a few
hundred dollars to the retail price or subtracting it...  Consumer
Reports also has a number you can call and get a quote for your area.
A friend of mine used it, and was quite happy with the service.  I
believe it cost about $10.00.


The basic definition that I use is:
	The belief that Jesus was God incarnate.
	The belief that Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead
	for our salvation.
	The acceptance of Jesus as personal Lord and Savior.

This would include most Christian denominations, but exclude the Unitarians.


I have some brand new copies of the following books for sale. Some are
down-rev, don't know which or by how much: look to # of pages, copyright
date, etc. for clues.

  "PostScript Language Reference Manual", Adobe Sys. Inc., Addison-Wesley,
        copyr. 1986, printed 1990. 299 pages. $22.95.

  "PostScript Language Tutorial and Cookbook", as above, 243 pages, $16.95

I'll sell the above two books as a set for $15 postage paid w/in US.

  "OpenLook GUI Functional Specification", Sun Micro, Addison-W, copyr. 1989,
        564 pages, $34.95.

  "OpenLook GUI Application Style Guidelines", 388 pages, $24.95.

I'll sell the above two books as a set for $15 ppd. w/in US.

  O'Reilly & Associates Definitive Guides to the X Window System, copyr.
  1990, "for version 11", "revised and updated for Release 4":

  Vol. 0: "X Protocol Reference Manual," 498 pages $30
  Vol. 1: "Xlib Programming Manual," 672 pages $34.95
  Vol. 2: "Xlib Reference Manual," 792 pages $34.95
  Vol. 7: "XView Programming Manual," 640 pages $30

I'll sell the above four books as a set for $35 ppd. w/in US

Due to the high hassle/$ ratio I am asking for pre-payment by check. I'll
be queing cashing, packing, and shipping so be prepared to wait 3 weeks
for your books to show up.

If you'd like to pick them up, I live in San Francisco. Same prices though.

E-mail me if you are interested. Thanks!


Does anyone know of any type of acceleration sensor that has
an electrical output of any sort?  It would only have to sense
acceleration in one direction.

Thanx,

Mike

--


Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.misc
Subject: Hiragana/Katakana TT fonts
Keywords: hiragana, katakana, TrueType, Japanese

Where can I obtain TrueType hiragana and katakana (Japanese phonetic character)
fonts?

(note: I can receive mail at the address in the header, but I cannot send.)


	I would agree that a propane explosion is as likely as an
	ammunition/explosives blast. My question was directed to the
	person who claimed that the propane tank was likely ruptured
	by the tank before, or just as, the fire started. If that were
	true, shouldn't the explosion have happened very soon after
	the fires started?

	The FBI has made such a fuss over the videotapes and other
	evidence that they have to release something sooner or
	later. It's going to happen, and we'll get to see for
	ourselves.

	Often law enforcement agencies will withold evidence from
	public view until the investigation is over.

                  _____  _____
                  \\\\\\/ ___/___________________
  Mitchell S Todd  \\\\/ /                 _____/__________________________
________________    \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/
\_____        \__    / / tamu.edu  _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/
    \__________\__  / /        _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/
                \_ / /__________/
                 \/____/\\\\\\
 			 \\\\\\


I have written the file manager HFM, wich has two windows which compare
the files in two directorys to find out wether there are equal or
similar files. The 7 most important operations, copy, move, delete,
show the file, start a progam, navigate in the directory tree can be
invoked by dragging a directory entry with the mouse. This is very
convenient, because the selection of the file and the operation to
be performed, occur in one move. For bitmap graphic viewing the
program vpic can be integrated, for spreadsheat and database files
I use the view program from PCTOOLS 7.1. HFM can be configured to
use arbitrary viewers to show special data formats. It does
also present archives from pkzip etc. as simulated subdirectorys.
This filemanager has a somewhat non standart user interface, but
it is very convienient to use and is the prefered file manager
in several labs in our university.
The drawback of this filemanager is, it's still a dos program and
the development of a windows version has not yet begun. I use the
program package run18.zip, where run tells its windows companion
sched.exe which windows program should be started. In this way you
can start a windows program from a dosbox. The new version 3.19
(to be released soon) includes a new command for automating this
windows program start.
FTP archives for the mentioned programs (all these archives have several
mirror sites)
Simtel oak.oakland.edu 141.210.10.117
/filutl/hfm318.zip
/gif/vpic60e.zip
Garbo garbo.uwasa.fi 128.214.87.1
/dirutil/hfm318.zip
CICA ftp.cica.indiana.edu 129.79.20.17
/util/run18.zip
-


Dear news readers,

Is there anyone using sheep models for cardiac research, specifically
concerned with arrhythmias, pacing or defibrillation? I would like
to hear from you.

Many thanks,

Andrew Mears
*************** PLEASE EMAIL ME *************


Peter> : > Does anyone have any  other suggestions where the 42 came from?

Peter> Yep, here's a theory that I once heard bandied around.  Rather than thinking
Peter> of the number think of the sound. For Tea Two. A sort of anagram on Tea For Two,
Peter> Two for Tea, For Tea Two.
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~
Un other suggestion is there is no Tea above! It just
And For Two many things are possible; think binary, + -, Y/N,
L/R, T/F  No wonder there was Eve for Adam!

Peter> :-)

Malek :-) :-)

--
 Malek.


At first this kind of ranting annoyed me, but now it's rather entertaining.
These kinds of posts don't require ANY facts, logic, or even sense. It's
kind of like what 10-year old kids do on the playground. So go on and play.
Not everyone on the net is as simple minded as you guys seem to be.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has          Garrett Johnson
 come." --Tussman                                           Garrett@Ingres.com
"The probability of someone watching you is proportional
to the stupidity of your action." - Unknown


This is, apparently, what passes for intelligent discourse at Trinity.
Joe "FBI cultist" Kusmierczak gets angry when its pointed out that
the FBI has told him is a LIE, the mounting evidence is that
they've lied about almost every detail of 4/19 except that they
were there. What can you expect of cultists like him, somebody
oughtta burn him out, and if he's trapped, well, good riddance!
Right Joe?


kmr4@po.CWRU.edu (Keith M. Ryan) Pontificated:

Is this from the Quran (or however it's spelled)?


MC> Theory of Creationism: MY theistic view of the theory of
MC> creationism, (there  are many others) is stated in Genesis
MC> 1.  In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

And which order of Creation do you accept?	The story of creation is one of the
many places in the Bible where the Story contradicts itself.  The following is
an example...

GEN 1:25  And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle
after  their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his
kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image,  after  our likeness:
and  let  them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of
the air, and over the cattle, and  over  all the  earth,  and over every
creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18  And the LORD God said, It is  not  good  that  the  man should be
alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19  And out of the ground the LORD God formed  every  beast of  the
field,  and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he
would call them: and whatsoever  Adam  called every living creature, that was
the name thereof.

Even your Bible cannot agree on how things were created.  Why should we
believe in it?


: I have a little question:
:
: I need to convert RGB-coded (Red-Green-Blue) colors into HVS-coded
: (Hue-Value-Saturnation) colors. Does anyone know which formulas to
: use?

Lets see if I have this right... HSV == HSB == HSL ... and none of those
are the same as HLS.  Hopefully, HVS is just a transposition of HSV, and
not yet another color model...

The following code should do the HSV (HSL) coding (I haven't tried it yet)
(Thanks to bultman@dgw.rws.nl)

Another possibility is /mirrors/msdos/graphics/graphgem.zip on
wuarchive.wustl.edu.

Bill Neisius
bill@solaria.hac.com

----------------

The following code is from the starbase (HP) manual:
(all coordinates noralised at 0-1 interval)

     hsl_to_rgb(hue, saturation, luminosity, red, green, blue)
     float   hue, saturation, luminosity;    /* input in HSL */
     float   *red, *green, *blue;            /* output in RGB */
     {
         float       frac, lx, ly, lz;       /* temporaries */

         hue = 6 * hue;
         frac = hue - (int) hue;
         lx = luminosity * (1 - saturation);
         ly = luminosity * (1 - saturation * frac);
         lz = luminosity * (1 - saturation * (1 - frac));

         switch ((int) hue) {
             case 0: case 6:
                 *red = luminosity; *green = lz; *blue = lx; break;
             case 1:
                 *red = ly; *green = luminosity; *blue = lx; break;
             case 2:
                 *red = lx; *green = luminosity; *blue = lz; break;
             case 3:
                 *red = lx; *green = ly; *blue = luminosity; break;
             case 4:
                 *red = lz; *green = lx; *blue = luminosity; break;
             case 5:
                 *red = luminosity; *green = lx; *blue = ly; break;
         }
     }
     /******************************************************************************/
     rgb_to_hsl(red, green, blue, hue, saturation, luminosity)
     #define max(a, b, c)    ((a>b?a:b)>c?(a>b?a:b):c)
     #define min(a, b, c)    ((a<b?a:b)<c?(a<b?a:b):c)
     float   red, green, blue;               /* input in RGB */
     float   *hue, *saturation, *luminosity; /* output in HSL */
     {
         float       x, tempr, tempg, tempb; /* temporary values */


FOR SALE

MS-DOS 6.0 UPGRADE

open but unregistered
3.5" disks

$40 or best offer

Please mail replies to gt7187c@prism.gatech.edu


   Path: dime!ymir.cs.umass.edu!nic.umass.edu!noc.near.net!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!waikato.ac.nz!ldo
   From: ldo@waikato.ac.nz (Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Waikato University)
   Newsgroups: comp.multimedia,comp.graphics
   Date: 26 Apr 93 05:09:15 GMT
   References: <1993Mar31.074502.3590@aragorn.unibe.ch>  <1993Apr16.212441.34125@rchland.ibm.com>
   Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand
   Lines: 67
   Xref: dime comp.multimedia:6358 comp.graphics:32606

   OK, with all the discussion about observed playback speeds with QuickTime,
   the effects of scaling and so on, I thought I'd do some more tests.

   First of all, I felt that my original speed test was perhaps less than
   realistic. The movie I had been using only had 18 frames in it (it was a
   version of the very first movie I created with the Compact Video compressor).
   I decided something a little longer would give closer to real-world results
   (for better or for worse).

   I pulled out a copy of "2001: A Space Odyssey" that I had recorded off TV
   a while back. About fifteen minutes into the movie, there's a sequence where
   the Earth shuttle is approaching the space station. Specifically, I digitized
   a portion of about 30 seconds' duration, zooming in on the rotating space
   station. I figured this would give a reasonable amount of movement between
   frames. To increase the differences between frames, I digitized it at only
   5 frames per second, to give a total of 171 frames.

   I captured the raw footage at a resolution of 384*288 pixels with the Spigot
   card in my Centris 650 (quarter-size resolution from a PAL source). I then
   imported it into Premiere and put it through the Compact Video compressor,
   keeping the 5 fps frame rate. I created two versions of the movie: one scaled
   to 320*240 resolution, the other at 160*120 resolution. I used the default
   "2.00" quality setting in Premiere 2.0.1, and specified a key frame every ten
   frames.

   I then ran the 320*240 movie through the same "Raw Speed Test" program I used
   for the results I'd been reporting earlier.

   Result: a playback rate of over 45 frames per second.

   That's right, I was getting a much higher result than with that first short
   test movie. Just for fun, I copied the 320*240 movie to my external hard
   disk (a Quantum LP105S), and ran it from there. This time the playback rate
   was only about 35 frames per second. Obviously the 230MB internal hard disk
   (also a Quantum) is a significant contributor to the speed of playback.

   I modified my speed test program to allow the specification of optional
   scaling factors, and tried playing back the 160*120 movie scaled to 320*240
   size. This time the playback speed was over 60 fps. Clearly, the poster who
   observed poor performance on scaled playback was seeing QuickTime 1.0 in
   action, not 1.5. I'd try my tests with QuickTime 1.0, but I don't think it's
   entirely compatible with my Centris and System 7.1...

   Unscaled, the playback rate for the 160*120 movie was over 100 fps.

   The other thing I tried was saving versions of the 320*240 movie with
   "preferred" playback rates greater than 1.0, and seeing how well they played
   from within MoviePlayer (ie with QuickTime's normal synchronized playback).
   A preferred rate of 9.0 (=> 45 fps) didn't work too well: the playback was
   very jerky. Compare this with the raw speed test, which achieved 45 fps with
   ease. I can't believe that QuickTime's synchronization code would add this
   much overhead: I think the slowdown was coming from the Mac system's task
   switching.

   A preferred rate of 7.0 (=> 35 fps) seemed to work fine: I couldn't see
   any evidence of stutter. At 8.0 (=> 40 fps) I *think* I could see slight
   stutter, but with four key frames every second, it was hard to tell.

   I guess I could try recreating the movies with a longer interval between the
   key frames, to make the stutter more noticeable. Of course, this will also
   improve the compression slightly, which should speed up the playback performance
   even more...

   Lawrence D'Oliveiro                       fone: +64-7-856-2889
   Computer Services Dept                     fax: +64-7-838-4066
   University of Waikato            electric mail: ldo@waikato.ac.nz
   Hamilton, New Zealand    37^ 47' 26" S, 175^ 19' 7" E, GMT+12:00

I'm afraid I missed the start of this thread, but there are three factors that
can significantly affect QuickTime's playback speed that you may want to take
into account:

(1) playback bit depth (things are fastest when you play a
movie back at the bit depth it was compressed for, this is usually 8 or 16
bit, but other depths are (of course) possible).

(2) type of scaling (QT is optimized for "double size" scaling, other scaling
factors hit peformance much harder).

(3) playback window position (MoviePlayer limits your window placement choices
to advantagous pixel boundaries by default, I'm not sure about Premiere).

Any combination of those can radically alter playback performance.  Image size
is, of course, another biggie.  Giving the movie player lots of RAM can also
make a real difference.

Forgive me if these were mentioned earlier in the thread...

-Peter Lee


I would like to get some information on the current systems used for HD-TV
sound systems.thanks.


Deloreans NEVER had a factory V8.  They were considering production
with a turbo (or twin turbo, I forget) version of the standard V6.  As
to who produced it, you got me!

Jonathan


	Don't expect to get top quality, just some toughness.  I don't
	view Makarov as a player who would add toughness.

	Nelson, you're confusing skill and toughness.

	Hey, get off the McGill/Hammond thing.  I'm no fan of either. My
	point is that last year the Sharks had toughness that was missing
	this year.  This year we had more skill, I'm all for that, but
	if your skill players keep getting beat up and injured they
	can't do you much good.  Whether it's a cheap shot or not you
	can't let the other teams push you around.  The 1992-93 Sharks
	simply got pushed around to much.  Other teams knew this.
	They knew they could aggressively check the Sharks and not
	pay for it.   Adding some players in the off season who will
	add some toughness to the team will help insure that next
	season other teams will be more hesistant to vigorously
	check our skill players, or to take cheap shots.  It doesn't
	guarantee no injuries (nothing does), but it's something the
	Sharks can do to reduce the number of injuries.

	mark

 just say