which Kenneth Engel challenges:

I will wimp out and admit that I never liked the metaphor of
Jesus "paying" for our sins in the sense that many Christians
accept as literal. The point is that God understands the suffering
we go through, not just intellectually like when we watch
the Somalians on TV, but _really_ understands, He can "feel"
our pain. This fact is manifested by Jesus' life. We can argue
that someone in history might have suffered more than Jesus,
we can think of more horrible torture than crucifixion, we can
think of cases of betrayal and fruitless effort leading to
worse despair, but the main point is that Jesus is in the
trenches with us, He is in everyone, whatever I do to the least
of humanity I do to Him, and whatever I do for the least of
humanity I do for Him.

Now, to reconcile this with the existence of hell is beyond my
capabilities, but that wasn't my goal.

Thankfully our moderator is surprising.

As I re-read this I must admit that this is more of a description
of my faith than an explanation, but perhaps that's all
I can do, hopefully that's all I have to do.


Neither.

You don't have to pay attention to any one source, neither do you
have to abandon your critical thinking, but to disregard all sources
of information as 'lies' and 'distortions' and substitute your own
pet theories is more likely to get you wild untruths than by basing
your theories on the 'facts' as they are reported by the media and
the government.

Actually there was evidence of the fire being set deliberately -
both testamony by the survivors and IR tape showing the fire
being set in 3 places AND the petrochemical soot that the fire
was giving off (indications of kerosine or gasoline feeding the
fire).

You might not believe 1 or 2 if you are totally paranoid or very
skeptical, but my 3rd point is visible to anyone who watches the
tapes of the fire and has started a BBQ grill.

Ho ho ho.  I listen to NPR, watch CNN, NBC.  I also read the
papers.   Where do you get YOURS?


Heres a nice story to help explain the virtues of purity, innocence
and modesty, and their importance.

    The Most Beautiful Virtues

    This story is an excerpt taken from The  Basket  of  Flowers   by
    Johann Christoph von Schmid

    In a certain little market town, over a hundred years ago,	there
    lived  an  upright	and  intelligent man named Jacob Rede. He was
    married to a most virtuous young woman and they lived happily  in
    a  humble  home which was in the midst of a large, beautiful val-
    ley. After living many, happy years together, Jacob's wife	died,
    leaving  him alone with only one friend...his daughter Mary. Even
    as a child Mary was uncommonly pretty; but as she grew in  years,
    her piety, her innocence, her modesty and her unfeigned kindne ss
    towards all she came in contact with, gave to her beauty  a  rare
    and  peculiar  charm. Her face was lighted up with a look of such
    indescribable goodness, that  it  seemed  almost  as  though  one
    looked upon an angel.

    Mary's greatest delight was the beautiful garden and her  favour-
    ite  flowers  were the violet, the lily and the rose. Jacob loved
    to point to them as emblems of the virtues most becoming  to  her
    gender.  When	she  once, early in March brought the first violet to

    Let the modest violet, my dear Mary, be to you an image of humil-
    ity  and  of the benevolence that does good in secret. It clothes
    itself in the tender colours of modesty; it prefers to  bloom  in
    retired  grots; it fills the air with its fragrance while remain-
    ing hidden beneath the leaves.  May you also, my  dear  Mary,  be
    like  the  retiring violet, avoiding vain display, not seeking to
    attract the public	eye,  but  preferring  ever  to  do  good  in
    quietude and peace.

    One morning when the roses and lilies were in full bloom and  the
    garden appeared in its richest array, Jacob said to his daughter,
    as he pointed out a beautiful lily,  which	was  beaming  in  the
    morning sun:

    Let the lily my dear child, be to you the emblem
     of purity. Look how beautiful, how pure and fair it is! The whi-
    test  linen is as nothing compared with the purity of its petals:
    they are like the snow. Happy the maiden whose heart is  as  pure
    and as free from stain. But the purest of all colours is also the
    hardest

				   -5-

    to preserve pure. Easily is the petal of the lily  soiled;	touch
    it	but carelessly or roughly and a stain is left behind.  In the
    same way, a word or a thought may stain the purity of  innocence!

     Let the rose my dear Mary, be to you an emblem of modesty.  More
    beautiful  than the colour of the rose is the blush that rises to
    the cheek of a modest girl. It is a sign that she is  still  pure
    of	heart  and  innocent in thought. Happy is the maiden whom the
    suggestion of a thought that is indelicate, will cause to  blush,
    as	she  is thus put on her guard against the approach of danger.
    The cheeks which readily blush will remain for a long  time  with
    their  roseate  hue, while those which fail to blush at the least
    indelicacy of thought will soon  become  pale  and	wan,  and  go
    before their time to the grave."

    Among the many fruit trees that adorned the garden there was  one
    that  was  prized above all the others. It was an apple tree, not
    much larger than a rose bush, and stood by itself in  the  middle
    of	the garden. Mary's father had planted it the day that she was
    born and every year it bore a number of beautiful apples. Once it
    blossomed  earlier	than  usual  and with unusual luxuriance. The
    tree was one mass of blossom. Mary was so delighted with it  that
    she went every morning as soon as she was dressed to look at
     it. Once, when it was in full bloom, she called  to  her  father

    Look father, how beautiful! Was there ever such a lovely mingling
    of	red  and  white?  The whole tree looks like one huge bunch of
    flowers!

    The next morning she hastened into the garden to feast  her  eyes
    once  more	upon the tree. But what was her grief to see that the
    frost had nipped it and destroyed all its flowers. They were  all
    become  brown  and	yellow	and  when  the	sun came forth in its
    strength they withered and fell to the ground. Mary  wept  bitter
    tears at the sight. Then said the father:

    Thus, does sinful pleasure destroy the  bloom  of  youth.  Oh  my
    child,  never  cease to remember how dreadful it is to be seduced
    from the path of right! Behold in the example of the  apple  tree
    an	image of what would happen if you were to wander from the way
    - if the hopes your conduct  hitherto  has	raised	in  my	heart
    should  vanish,  not  merely for a day or year, but for life. Ah,
    then how much more bitter would be the tears which I  would  shed
    over your lapse from virtue than those which now course down your
    cheeks! Life would have no joys for me: with tears in my eyes  I
    should

				   -6-

    go down sorrowfully to my grave.

    As he spoke, the tears stood in his eyes; Mary was deeply  moved,
    and  the words he uttered made so profound an impression upon her
    mind that she never forgot them.

    Under the eyes of a father so  loving  and	wise,  and  amid  the
    flowers  of  her  garden, Mary grew daily in stature and intelli-
    gence - blooming as a rose, pure as a  lily  and  retiring	as  a
    violet, and as full of promise as a tree laden with blossom.

    Happy was the old man at all times to behold how plenteously  the
    fruits  of	his  garden  rewarded his diligent toil; but with how
    much more happiness and content did he mark the  gracious  effect
    produced  upon  the heart and mind of his beloved daughter by his
    pious teaching and example.

    Jacob plucked several roses and lilies, tied them together	in  a
    bunch and gave them to Mary with the words:

    The lily and the rose, sister flowers as they are, belong the one
    to	the  other;  both incomparable in their beauty, they are ren-
    dered still more lovely by being together. In  the	same  way  my
    dear  child  are innocence and modesty twin sisters of virtue and
    cannot be separated

    The greatest and most powerful guardian of purity is the  thought
    of the presence of God


Did anyone notice any helicopters equipped with thermal imaging
equipment? They usually manifest themselves in a turret in the front
of the helo, or a sphere on top of the rotor with optical elements.


Article: 41686 of sci.electronics
Newsgroups: sci.electronics
Path: news.nd.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!asuvax!ennews!mcdphx!schuch
From: schuch@phx.mcd.mot.com (John Schuch)
Subject: Food Dehydrators
Message-ID: <1993Apr19.154356.17880@phx.mcd.mot.com>
Sender: news@phx.mcd.mot.com
Nntp-Posting-Host: bopper2.phx.mcd.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Computer Group, Tempe, Az.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 10:43:56 EST
Lines: 9

Try Mother Earth News, Feb/March 1993, pg 54, "Build a Food Dryer"


Dear netters

I am wondering about the accident of Koresh. I have heard different
explanations.
Without any explanation about your opinions and believes,
 please kindly tell me:

     1)- What was Koresh talking about?. (Or  what was his message)
     2)- What was the main reason that Government went in war with
             Koresh?
(Some say that due to Tax payment, ....)

Thanks in advance for your historical explanation.


Zoroaster is far older than Daniel. If anything, one could claim that,
in a sense, Daniel is a descendant of Zoroaster; as Daniel, though being
Hebrew, has assimilated into Zoroastrianism and has successfully
introduced the religion into the Tanakh of Judaism. [However, the majority
of the book is in Hellenistic Aramaic (not Babylonian Aramaic) and only has
Kethuvim or Writing status.]

Ref: Encyclopedia of Religion, Mircea Eliade:

DANIEL, or, in Hebrew, Daniyye'l; hero of the biblical book that bears his name.
Daniel is presented as a Jew in the Babylonian exile who achieved notoriety in
the royal court for his dream interpretations and cryptography and for his
salvation from death in a lion's pit. He also appears in the last chapters of
the book as the revealer of divine mysteries and of the timetables of Israel's
restoration to national-religious autonomy. As a practitioner of oneiromancy in
the court, described in Daniel 1-6 (written in the third person), Daniel per-
forms his interpretations alone, while as a visionary-apocalyptist, in Daniel
7-12 (written in the first person), he is in need of an angel to help him
decode his visions and mysteries of the future. It is likely that the name
Daniel is pseudonymous, a deliberate allusion to a wise and righteous man known
from Ugaritic legend and earlier biblical tradition. (Ez. 14:4,28:3).
  The authorship of the book is complicated not only by the diverse narrative
voices and content but by its language: Daniel 1:1-2:4a and 8-12 are written in
Hebrew, whereas Daniel 2:4b-7:28 is in Aramaic. The language division parallels
the subject division (Daniel 1-6 concerns legends and dream interpretations;
7-12 concerns apocalyptic visions and interpretations of older prophecies). The
overall chronological scheme as well as internal thematic balances (Daniel 2-7
is chiliastically related) suggest an attempt at redactional unity. After the
prefatory tale emphasizing the life in court and the loyalty of Daniel and some
youths to their ancestral religion, a chronological ordering is discernable: a
sequence from King Nebuchadrezzar to Darius is reported (Dn. 7-12). Much of
this royal dating and even some of the tales are problematic: for example,
Daniel 4 speaks of Nebuchadrezzar's transformation into a beast, a story that
is reported in the Qumran scrolls of Nabonidus; Belshazzar is portrayed as the
last king of Babylon, although he was never king; and Darius is called a Mede
who conquered Babylon and is placed before Cyrus II of Persia, although no such
Darius is known (the Medes followed the Persians, and Darius is the name of
several Persian kings). Presumably the episodes of Daniel 2-6, depicting a
series of monarchical reversals, episodes of ritual observances, and reports of
miraculous deliverances were collected in the Seleucid period (late fourth to
mid-second century BCE) in order to reinvigorate waning Jewish hopes in divine
providence and encourage steadfast faith.
  The visions of Daniel 7-12, reporting events from the reign of Belshazzar to
that of Cyrus II (but actually predicting the overthrow of Seleucid rule in
Palestine), were collected and published during the reign of Antiochus IV prior
to the Maccabean Revolt, for it was then (beginning in 168 BCE) that the Jews
were put to the test concerning their allegiance to Judaism and their ancestral
traditions, and many refused to desecrate the statues of Moses and endured a
martyr's death for their resolute trust in divine dominion. All of the visions
of Daniel dramatize this dominion in different ways: for example, via images of
the enthronement of a God of judgment, with a "son of man" invested with rule
(this figure was interpreted by Jews as Michael the archangel and by Christians
as Christ), in chapter 7; via zodiacal images of cosmic beasts with bizarre
manifestations, as in chapter 8; or via complex reinterpretations of ancient
prophecies, especially those of Jeremiah 25:9-11, as found in Daniel 9-12.
  The imagery of the four beasts in chapter 7 (paralleled by the image of four
metals in chapter 2), representing four kingdoms to be overthrown by a fifth
monarchy of divine origin, is one of the enduring images of the book; it sur-
vived as a prototype of Jewish and Christian historical and apocalyptic schemes
to the end of the Middle Ages. The role and power of this imagery in the
fifteenth and sixteenth century work of the exegete Isaac Abravanel, the
scientist Isaac Newton, and the philosopher Jean Bodin and among the Fifth
Monarchy Men of seventeenth century England, for example, is abiding testimony
to the use of this ancient topos in organizing the chiliastic imagination of
diverse thinkers and groups. The schema is still used to this day by various
groups predicting the apocalyptic advent.
  The encouragement in the face of religious persecution that is found and
propagandized in Daniel 11-12 contains a remarkable reinterpretation of Isaiah
52:13-53:12, regarding the suffering servant of God not as all Israel but as
the select faithful. Neither the opening stories about Daniel and the youths nor
the final martyrological allusions advocate violence or revolt; they rather
advocate a stance of piety, civil disobedience, and trustful resignation.
Victory for the faithful is in the hands of the archangel Michael, and the
martyrs will be resurrected and granted astral immortality. Persumably the
circles behind the book were not the same as the Maccabean fighters and may
reflect some proto-Pharisaic group of hasidim, or pietists. The themes of
resistance to oppression, freedom of worship, preservation of monotheistic
integrity, the overthrow of historical dominions, and the acknowledgement of
the God of heaven recur throughout the book and have served as a token of
trust for the faithful in their darkest hour.


The question is not whether your radio will be stolen.  The question is
when your radio will be stolen.


Both xli and xloadimage will display in 24 bit color if a 24 bit visual
is available.  Check the output of xdpyinfo to see if one is.


GM has always screwed the rest of the divisions in favor of the
Corvette. The current platform is no exception. The "detuned" Camaro and
Firebird is a load of crap to keep people from realizing that they can
buy one of these instead of a Corvette and save about $10,000.

I like the idea of an Impala SS, but if they really wanted to impress
me, they would throw in a big phat 454. Imagine the cops in their Taurus
police package 3.0 and 3.8 litres as they stare at your taillights...

George Howell


Gateway 2000 Fax/Modem
send receive fax 9600 baud
send receive up to 57,000 baud
.. more

never been used
comes with software crosstalk/winFax

New $195 from Gateway (only sold to gateway customer)
will fit into your AT bus


Interesting question, esp since I remember *wishing* with all
my heart that this *were* true so that I wouldn't have to be a
"good Christian" anymore.  "Christianity" was terribly hard, the
only reward was Heaven and (maybe, sometimes, if I was really
good) acceptance; I wanted a way out.

What Jesus has done for me since I found Him (some 6 months ago)
I do not want to lose.  Period.

That said, I originally interpreted the What-If as "if Christ
never mentioned Sheol and weeping and gnashing of teeth, if
Christ preached that those who did not follow him died and stayed
dead and at that point forever ceased to exist...."

I believe that we can only be complete through Christ.
Do you think that Buddhists can also be complete?

-jen

--


...

If we take things this literally then we must also forbid women from
speaking in church. Paul while led by the holy spirit was human and could
err. I find it interesting that CHRIST never discussed the issue of
homosexuality, certainly it existed back then and if it was a serious
transgression CHRIST would have condemned it.
I find it disturbing that the modern church spends its energy trying
to stamp out something that CHRIST didn't consider worth a single word
of condemnation. CHRIST repeatedly warns us against judgement.
Don't we risk "judgement in equal measure" when we condemn people who
GOD himself did not judge when he walked on the earth?

--
   |         The love of CHRIST is contagious!
 --+--
   |


I currently have a AD-lib card, it can play .mid files in windows
but it cannot play the startup .wav files..
i called microsoft... no help.
i cannot call ad-lib since they went belly up.

does anyone know if there are special drivers that i need for this?
if so, where are they?

Thanx in ad-libvance!! :-)


 Rabin is the PM. Did he ever indicate such a wish? Try to implement it?

I opt for the third.

Ish


How generous Andi.  Thanks for your validation.


Persons interested in the tongues question are are invited to
peruse an essay of mine, obtainable by sending the message
 GET TONGUES NOTRANS
 to LISTSERV@ASUACAD.BITNET or to
    LISTSERV@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU


The Hart Trophy was orginally awarded in a time where people did not think
in terms of who was the "best" player, rather in terms of who was the most
valuable to the team.  And "valuable to his team" was not, and should not
be, considered synonymous with "best".  We are talking about a time when
honour and attitude, not measurable skills, were the most important assets
a player brought to his team, his league and his sport.  This was before
the onslaught of professionalism which has clearly denigrated what was
formerly the foremost peacetime pursuit of glory.

The Hart Trophy is not a prize.  It is an honour.

--


Still here. Just doing a little sobbing in our beer so we're to busy to
post :-)

Seriously I think I caught a .sig curse from Nelson :-)
First the $%@#$%$ Rangers and $50 now the B's......
Hmmm....How bout dem Whalers? (No offense to steveg or others)


Though David Sternlight pushes the envelope of credibility by claiming that
talk.politics.guns is not the place to discuss guns, or the meaning of the
Second Amendment, it seems he would rather post to millions of people out
of relative ignorance of the subject than to follow the currently active
threads discussing EXACTLY this topic which at least explore the fallacies
of his erroneous claim, and at most explode them.

Basic fact #1, Mr. Sternlight:  The RIGHT described is a "right of the people
to keep and bear arms;" not a "right of the people to form a militia," a
"right of a militia to keep and bear arms," or a "right of well-regulated
people to keep and bear arms."  This should be apparent from a simple
reading of the sentence.

For the other arguments, I suggest you check out the thread, "Some more
about gun control," playing now in an alt.politics.usa.constitution
near you.
--


Picture our universe floating like a log
in a river.  As the log floats down the
river, it occasionally strikes rocks, the
bank, the bottom, other logs.  When this collission
occurs, kinetic energy is translated into heat, the
log degrades, gets scraped up, and other energy
translaions occur.  The distribution of damage to
the log depends on the shape of the log.

However, to a very small virus in a mite on the head of a
termite in the center of the log, the shock waves from the
collissions would appear uniformly random in direction.

This is my theory for GRB.  They are evidence of our universe
interacting with other universes!  Why not!  Makes
just as much sense as the GRB coming from the Oort cloud!

The log theory of universes can't be ruled out!

Of course, I'm a layman in the physics world.  You
physicists out there, Tell me about this !!!!


That would be a V4 ticket, presumably, not a V5 ticket.  The V4 ticket
format can even be complicated several more orders of magnitude...


cdash@moet.cs.colorado.edu (Charles Shub) writes...

What really irritated me was that they kept switching back and forth
between baseball and hockey after they stated that they couldn't show
the overtime period. I turned back to ESPN around 11 and it was hockey.
Great, I pulled up a chair and watched, then the first overtime period
ended and they went back to baseball before coming back to hockey
something like 30 minutes later. Are they trying to alienate both
hockey and baseball viewers at the same time. As for Martinsville,
I wonder why they even bothered to sign up for it when they it was
no secret that it coincided with the draft. Why not let TNN broadcast
it ?

George


Hi,

Does anyone have a source for 386DX/25 Motherboards?  I've
been calling around the local stores and everyone appears
to be only stocking the 386DX/33/40 or 386SX/25/33 motherboards.

How difficult is it to modify a 386DX/40 motherboard to run at
25 MHz?  Is it as simple as replacing the system clock with a
slower part?

Thanks!


Alas, we too will have to stop using it.

Brian


I have a '81 DATSUN 210 HATCHBAK forsale:

	It's a Blue Datsun
	Two doors (three, since it's a hatchback)
	69,900 miles
	Automatic
	Very good condition (I hate to sell it, but Phila insurance is
			     outrageous; I also don't need a car right now)
	I am asking $800 or BO


[...]

As anyone who attended HoHoCon will attest, you can pick information
off the video chip.  It's surprisingly easy too.  The guy did it with
a portable TV, with very minor mods.  It only worked from 3 feet, but
then it was just a demonstration.

	RA

rogue@cs.neu.edu (Rogue Agent/SoD!)


Since there is no BIOS support for ST-506 interface hard disks in an XT,
that support must come from a BIOS extension ROM on the (MFM/RLL) hard disk
controller. Usually the controller has a ROM-based low level format
program (a common jump address is C800:0005 ... you can type G=C800:5 from
debug to see) and a small table of drive geometries it "knows" about.
Sometimes these are selectable using jumpers on the card, sometimes you
can enter them manually in the LLF menu. Failing that, you must use a
third-party HD prep program like SpeedStor, Disk Manager, or the like.

IDE drives come formatted already, and since the is controller part of the
drive mechanism itself, concerns about geometry are irrelevant. Plug
it in and go to FDISK.


Geez, I think some of these people have been too long on the net,
you are not going to convince anyone of anything through violent
language, one wonders why so many have violent tounges...


:>
:> I would not be suprised if the equipment is compatible, in fact New York
:>Telephone (NYNEX) spend a lot of money on Swedish switching equipment
:>recently.
:>
:>>Lars-Henrik Eriksson                            Internet: lhe@sics.se
:>
:> You can guess what brand of equipment I refer to :-)
:>
:	Lars-Henrik will be pleased to know that his name is
:plastered all over phones at New Mexico State University as well.
:They got the contract when NMSU went to a digital phone system.
[snip]

Not quite correct! The company name is Ericsson. (With a 'c').

---


	Text & Graphics:
	Bristol Technologies has help clone of MSWindows help
	Frame (makers of FrameMaker) has FrameView

	Text only:
	Graphical Software Technology has Xtra Widgets (includes help)

	There are probably others (check out ICS widget data book)

I actually wrote one for the last company I worked for-- however it is
locked in their internal reuse library.  :-(
It was a good one too! (IMHO and totally unbiased view of things) ;-)


For example, I would claim that the recent assassination of four
catholic construction workers who had no connection with the IRA
was probably religously motivated.

What would you call is when someone writes "The killings in N.I
are not religously motivated?"

Given that the avowed aim of the IRA is to take Northern Ireland
into a country that has a particular church written into its
constitution, and which has restriction on civil rights dictated
by that Church, I fail to see why the word "past" is appropriate.

You don't have to hand us a bunch of double-talk about what
I was "seemingly" attacking.   I *quoted* what I was attacking.


I'm planning to buy a computer and I like TC's ads.   Can you tell anything
about the company and their computers?  Also, if anyone has a company they
would prefer, please let me know.

Thanks.


started!".
not

It's also what you say when you're waiting for the end to come in a
"fiery apocalypse"...just a thought.

Personally, if the fire was set (by either side), I wonder about the
timing.  If Koresh & Co. set the fires, why wait through six hours of
wall-bashing and tear-gassing before starting; was there anything "new"
that happened just around that point?  Similarly, if the FBI were going
to torch the place (and fake it, of course), why wait so long, wouldn't
it be more "reasonable" to believe the BD's would set the fire early
after the assault began?

The most plausible (to me) explaination is that of an accidental starting
of the fire by the tanks.  Among other things, I say that because I
was listening to the radio when the fire started and the reporter
(watching from a distance, of course) said that it looked like at least
one of the tanks had penetrated farther into the building than previously.
Specifically, he said that one tank apparently was halfway (half of
the tank's lenght) into the building where it previously had only been
penetrating a few feet.


Ok, let me see if I can get all this out concisely.  I am on an
information gathering venture regarding the various expressions of
Christianity/churches there are.
        My husband and I come from very different, but completely
Christian backgrounds.  I was a Lutheran when I met him and he was a
born and raised Church of Christ member.  At first I agreed with a lot
of what the C of C was about, I wanted to move from the liturgical
based Lutheran church to something a little more Biblical based.
However over the last year, I've been regretting changing to the
Church of Christ for a number of reasons - for one thing I am not a
fundamentalist and believe that a few things in the Bible are
socio-cultural in nature and don't relate to the Christian doctrine.
One of my sorest spots is the role of women.  I believe that through
Mary and other women, Chris validated women as worthy disciples - but
in the C of C the writings of Paul are taken without exception and I
am told that I am not an equal partner in my marriage but the lesser
member, I am to submit to my husband in all things (if I hear that
verse one more time....) and I am not to take an active role in
anything which might be construed as putting me in authority over men
(ie leading prayers, conducting Bible studies etc).   The last straw
was when the Elders at our church came down on one of our college
groups because it was all-women and they wanted a man to lead the
study.
Also my husband and I really resent the way everyone at our church
feels that if you aren't a conservative republican - you aren't a REAL
Christian (I got told that nobody who voted for Clinton should call
themselves a Christian).  Hence we are subjected during the service to
long prayers calling for things we flatly dont agree with.  We are
also don't agree with the C of C's dread of any new "movement" being
led by the young people.

So, we have been church hunting with NO success.  I want a reasonably
biblical based church where women are viewed as whole people no matter
what their calling ( C of C really looked down on career women).
Christopher is looking for a church with deeply rooted religious
convictions, with adult baptism and a church where the members still
bring their Bibles to service.

We are so confused here and we're drifting around trying to find a
place where we both feel loved and can express our faith honestly and
without reservation.  If anyone can point us in a direction we'd be
thrilled!
I'm afraid that it will be very hard for me to go back to C of C and
even harder for me to stay churchless for long.

any responses would be welcome

the diel family


True, but the basic idea behind any communications security system is not
to absolutely deny access, but to make access more expensive (in time,
money, manpower) than it is worth.


I came across this interesting information in my local public library while
researching minivans.  It is the dealer price and the retail price for a
minivan I am thinking about purchasing.  Someone told me that the number for
base price was slightly lower than the current price, but this should still
give you some idea about pricing and how much you can negotiate.

Mercury Villager GS
                          Dealer     Retail
Base Price                $14688     16504
Air Conditioning             729       857
Rear Defroster               143       168
Calif. Emissions              87       102
7 Passenger Seating          282       332
AM/FM Radio (no cassette)    STD       STD
Automatic Transmission       STD       STD
Anti-lock brakes             STD       STD
Destination                  540       540

The total dealer cost is $16469
The total retail price is $18467

Nissan Quest XE
                          Dealer     Retail
Base Price                $15212     17545
Air Conditioning             STD       STD
Rear Defroster               STD       STD
Calif. Emissions              59        70
7 Passenger Seating          STD       STD
AM/FM Cassette               STD       STD
Automatic Transmission       STD       STD
Anti-lock brakes             593       700
Destination                  540       540


	Dummy Hoy, a late 19th-Century baseball player, was deaf.  In
order for him to be able to find out whether the pitch was a ball or
strike, the umpires developed hand signals.  This also helped to relieve
the stress on umpires' vocal cords, so they didn't have to shout "STRIKE!!!"
or "BALL!!!!!" 350 times a game...
	Heard about this one from the only worthwhile baseball book
John Thorn has ever authored, "A Century of Baseball Lore" :-)


According to the NY Times, the 4 islands "belong[] to the United Arab
Emirates."

Why is it, then, that when the British, Iranians and UAE refer to
Occupied Territory, they mean territory in dispute in Israel but not
in their own affairs?


Because I'm a guy and most of my pillions are female.

Also, the other reasons, like having an idea where you passengers
weight is, it being a more comfortable position for the passenger,
and it being a more stable configuration all come into it as well.

Holding the grab rail is a great idea only for braking, when you
don't want the pillion to slide forward into you, otherwise I don't
find it works well.


What fraction of the NASA workforce is civil servant
as opposed to contractor and what are the rules on
reduction in work force for civil servants?

eg, if say the shuttle program is terminated, how
much is payroll reduced and how?


 > Paul repeatedly talks about the "thorn" in his side. Some think
 > it refers to lust, others pride, but who knows? Whatever the
 > thorn was, apparently it was not compatible with Christianity,
 > yet does that make his epistles any less?

Paul mentions his "thorn" (SKOLOPS, actually a sharp stake) in 2
Corinthians 12:7-9

 + And to keep me from being too elated by the abundance of
 + revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of
 + Satan, to harass me, to keep me from being too elated. Three
 + times I besought the Lord about this, that it should leave me;
 + but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my
 + power is made perfectr in weakness."

He does not explain what it was, but it need not have been a moral
problem.  One guess is that Paul had a disorder of the eyes. He
ordinarily dictated his letters, and then added a personal note and
his signature. At the end of the letter to the Galatians, he says,
"See, I am writing in large letters with my own hand," or else, "See
what a long letter I have written with my own hand." If the former
translation is adopted, it seems that Paul could not write in the
small script of a practiced writer, but needed to make his letters
larger, and this suggests eye problems. Again, he says to the
Galatians (4:13-15),

 + You know that it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached
 + the gospel to you at first; and although my condition was a trial
 + to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an
 + angel of God.... For I bear you witness that, if possible, you
 + would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.

Perhaps this last line means simply, "You would have done anything
for me, not withholding your most precious possessions (your eyes)."
But in that case, we would expect some wording like, "If I had
needed them." "If it were possible" sounds as though the bodily
ailment was connected with his eyes.

William Barclay, in his volume on Acts, makes a more specific
suggestion.  Before Paul preached in the highlands of Galatia, he
had been preaching in the coastal areas of Asia Minor. If he had had
a malarial attack while there, a doctor would have advised him to
leave the low country and head for the hills. Malaria might well
have given him both severe headaches and blurred vision.


:
: Hello
:
: I have problems combining two IDE hard disks
: (Seagate ST3283A and Quantum LPS105A). As single hard disk both
: are working fine, but connecting them together to my
: controller doesn't work.
:
: My questions are:
:
: - Has anybody out there ever been succesful using such hard disks
:   together and if so what jumper settings and BIOS settting did he/she
:   use?
:
: - Is it possible that my controller is the reason for my troubles ?
:   The only thing I know about it is that it is an
:   IDE-harddisk-controller. How many harddisks can such a controller
:   control? In my case only one ?
:
:
: Thanks in advance
:
: 	Volker
:
IDE drives have jumpers on them to indicate if it is a master or a slave.
If it is a master, then a second jumper indicates if a slave is present.
These must be set correctly according to each drive's manufacturers spec-
ification.  The CMOS setup is almost positively NOT the problem.  It is
probably not the controller - IDE controllers all support exactly two
drives maximum.  Check those jumpers.


What is "doing it right the first time"?  Murdered them all?  Used tanks?
Maybe they should have had enough evidence to indict.  From the list presented
to date, I haven't seen ANYTHING illegal.  They claim that the BD's bought
components to convert their weapons to Class III devices, but no evidence that
they had done so.  In fact, with a Class III FFL living with them, this may
have been legal (given recent court rulings).

What you really meant to say was that the ATF should have done the right and
lwaful thing.  Or did you just want the BD's dead?


OK I posted this B4 but:


	+  I will put enmity between you [the Serpent] and the woman, and
	+ between your seed and her seed, she [can also be read he] shall
	+ crush your head and you shall bruise her [or his] heel.
	+ -Genesis 3.15

   In the Hebrew of Genesis 3:15, the gender is clearly masculine.

	+ HE shall crush your head, and you shall bruise HIS heel.

   The Latin has feminine forms, only by an accident of grammar.


-------------------------------------
	Apple //e  System For Sale
--------------------------------------

Apple //e, enhanced, 65c02 CPU w/64k on motherboard
Apple Extended 80-column card; expands memory to 128k total
2 5.25" Floppy Drives (Apple Disk ]['s) with Apple Controller Card
1 3.5" Floppy Drive (Apple UniDisk) with Apple Controller Card
Apple Monochrome Monitor
2 Apple Super Serial Cards
2400 Baud External modem
Original documentation for all of the above
ProDOS & DOS 3.3 System software
Talk is Cheap Communications software (original w/ docs)
Isys FORTH (original w/ docs), fig-FORTH w/ original docs.
Super Sunday Footbal game (original w/ docs)
Tsushima Game (original w/ docs)
Books: 6502 Systems Programming, Apple Graphics and Arcade
Game Design, Apple Machine Language for Beginners.
	--- All for $250 (shipping is probably $20-$30 more)


Directory PD1:<MSDOS.SYSUTL>
 Filename   Type Length   Date    Description
==============================================
CLKDEV14.ZIP  B   37122  910729  Keep DOS time in synch with battery clock chip

An index of all files in the WSMR-SIMTEL20.Army.Mil MS-DOS collection
is available in two formats:

Directory PD1:<MSDOS.FILEDOCS>
 Filename   Type  Description
==============================================
SIMIBM.ZIP    B   Comma-delim list of all MSDOS files w/descrip.
SIMLIST.ZIP   B   Text format list of all MSDOS files w/descrip.

These files are updated every 7-10 days.  See AAAREAD.ME in that
directory for details.

SIMTEL20 allows only nine ANONYMOUS FTP logins during weekday
prime time, 5am to 3pm Mountain Time (GMT-7), but 27 otherwise.

SIMTEL20 files are also available by anonymous ftp from mirror sites
OAK.Oakland.Edu (141.210.10.117), wuarchive.wustl.edu (128.252.135.4),
archive.orst.edu (128.193.2.13), ftp.uu.net (137.39.1.9), nic.funet.fi
(128.214.6.100), src.doc.ic.ac.uk (146.169.3.7), nic.switch.ch
(130.59.1.40), archie.au (139.130.4.6), NCTUCCCA.edu.tw (140.111.3.21),
by e-mail through the BITNET/EARN file servers, or by uucp from UUNET's
1-900-GOT-SRCS.  See UUNET file uunet!~/info/archive-help for details.

OAK.Oakland.Edu is the primary mirror site for WSMR-SIMTEL20.Army.Mil.
All other mirrors (except wuarchive) and all LISTSERV and TRICKLE
servers get their SIMTEL20 files from OAK instead of SIMTEL20 because
it is much faster and allows more simultaneous ftp connections.  OAK is
always "in sync" with SIMTEL20 because I maintain it, in addition to my
duties at SIMTEL20.  I run OAK's mirror program whenever new files are
added at SIMTEL20.

MSDOS-Ann@TACOM-EMH1.Army.Mil is a ONE-WAY (moderated) mailing list
which is used by the Internet MS-DOS archive managers to announce new
additions to their collections.

The announcements posted to this mailing list are also posted to Usenet
newsgroup comp.archives.msdos.announce.  If your host has Usenet News
please do not subscribe to MSDOS-Ann.

To add yourself to the mailing list send e-mail to
listserv@TACOM-EMH1.Army.Mil with this command in the
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To subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
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This server is only for mailing lists and information files.  It will
not send program files.

Keith


I heard that the magic date for price drop in a number of Apple products
will
be
June 30th.  Can anyone second this rumour?
--
A motion picture major at the Brooks Institute of Photography, CA
Santa Barbara and a foreign student from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia.


4/23/93    BLUES SHUTOUT HAWKS AGAIN, LEAD SERIES 3-0
-----------------------------------------------------
It was a great atmosphere last night at the St. Louis Arena as Joseph and
the Blues shutout the Hawks for the second consecutive game. People were
cheering the Blues long before face-off time, and they kept going for the
entire game. My friends and I went out celebrating until the early morning
hours with some of the players. Here's a game summary from the St. Louis
Post-Disptach. Enjoy...

By Dave Luecking
Of The Post-Dispatch Staff:

At 10:24 p.m. Friday night, The Arena crowd of 17,965 paid homage to Blues
goalie Curtis Joseph. The fans began bowing, their arms extended, taking the
the lead from a fan who held a sign that read ``Only God Saves More Than
Joseph."  It was a fitting tribute to Joseph, who has brought the Blues to
the verge of a surprising sweep.

Joseph recorded his second successive shutout Friday, blanking the Blackhawks
3-0 in Game 3 of the Norris Division semifinals and giving the Blues a 3-0
lead in the best-of-seven series.

The Blackhawks haven't scored against Joseph since the 8:51 mark of the second
period of Game 1. Joseph has shut out the Blackhawks for 151 minutes 9 seconds,
a Blues record. Jacques Plante held the previous record of 146:28, set in the
first round of the 1969 playoffs against the Philadelphia Flyers, one of only
two series the Blues have sweeped in their history.

The Blues can wrap up their first sweep since 1969 with a victory in Game 4,
a nationally televised game that begins at noon Sunday. The Blues have had
only two sweeps in franchise history, both in 1969, when they swept
Philadelphia and Los Angeles en route to the Stanley Cup finals.

The shutout Friday was easier than on Wednesday in Game 2 when Joseph had to
make 47 saves. This time, the Blues held the shots down to 34, and the
Blackhawks couldn't touch Joseph.

Well, they touched Joseph, numerous times, shoving him and pushing him at
every opportunity to try to get him off his game. But Joseph and the Blues
were unfazed, dishing out their own punishment along the way.

The Blues' grinders -- Bob Bassen, Rich Sutter, Kevin Miller and Dave Lowry --
wore down the Blackhawks, taking the visitors from Chicago off their game.
The grinders set the stage for the glamour boys, the gifted playmakers and
scorers, who made the most of their opportunities.

Craig Janney, Brett Hull and Nelson Emerson scored, getting one goal in each
period. Hull assisted on Janney's first-period power play goal after two unwise
Chicago penalties. Checker Miller set up Hull's goal in the second period, and
rookie Denny Felsner assisted for Emerson, who scored at 16:44 of the final
period.

Blues fans jumped to their feet in celebration of that goal and began yelling
``Sweep. Sweep. Sweep." They also taunted Chicago goalie Ed Belfour
``Bell-Four. Bell-Four." They also chanted ``Na, na-na-na, hey-hey good bye."

Such talk is a tad premature. There's still one game left, but the Blues are
on a roll. They have the Blackhawks on their heels.

The Blues set the tone early on Friday with two crunching hits in the first
minute of play. Rich Sutter leveled Bryan Marchment, and Brendan Shanahan
dumped Steve Smith at center ice.

Chicago tried to retaliate, but Troy Murray's decision to run into Joseph
backfired. Referee Dan Marouelli gave him a roughing penalty.

The Blues didn't get a shot on goal on the power play, and they survived a
scare after Chicago killed the penalty when Rick Zombo gave the puck away to
Steve Larmer. Joseph stopped Larmer's shot and everything else Chicago threw
at him in the first period. The 'Hawks ignored the scouting report on Joseph
about shooting high and continued to shoot low, where Joseph's butterfly
style is deadly.

Rookie Bret Hedican picked up three consecutive penalties midway through the
period -- two for hooking and one for holding -- but Chicago got only two
shots on goal, as many as Miller. The Blues' penalty killer twice stole the
puck and just missed on good scoring chances against Belfour.

Marouelli began calling penalties on the Blackhawks to even things up.
He caught Brent Sutter hooking Shanahan four seconds after Hedican's third
penalty. He called Marchment for elbowing Janney along the boards at 14:58,
and gave the Blues a two-man advantage 1:07 later when Christian Ruuttu
slashed Shanahan.

The Blues worked around the puck on the ensuing power play, and Hull got it
where he likes it -- in the high slot. Hull's shot hit Belfour's right
shoulder, and the puck bounced precariously close to the goal line. Belfour
dived back to cover, but the puck squirted loose to Janney, who poked it into
the net at 16:53 for his first goal of the playoffs.

The Blues continued their relentless hitting as the period ended, and the
Blackhawks lost their composure. Joe Murphy tripped Ron Wilson with two seconds
remaining in the period, and after time had expired Smith upset the Blues by
shooting the puck into the Blues' bench.

Chris Chelios made a move toward Joseph as the teams left the ice, and
Marouelli slapped him with a 10-minute misconduct. Chicago survived the Blues'
power play, but the loss of Chelios hurt. He didn't return until the midway
point of the period, and within three minutes of his return, Hull had increased
the Blues' lead to 2-0, deflecting in Miller's crisp pass.

Try as they might, the Blackhawks couldn't get to Joseph, who stopped
everything they could throw at him. He stopped 12 shots in the second period
and 13 more in the third. Chicago also hit the goalpost twice.

Emerson's goal put the game away. He went hard to the net and redirected
Felsner's pass.


Two safeguards:

1. The FBI could be asked to produce the law enforcement block to the escrow
agencies, and associate it with a particular court order;

2. If the thing comes to trial the defense attorneys can probe this issue
closely. It is not too different from proving that the speaker on a legal
wiretap is the person the court order covered.

Putting it another way, this question is not very different from the
pre-clipper question "What's to prevent the FBI from getting a court order
to tap Al Capone and then using it to tap Jonathan Livingstone Seagull
instead?"

David


Yes, atheists tend to claim self control and self ownership. Are you saying
that theists claim to not have self control? I don't think atheists are
"dominantly arrogant." They don't claim some god that has supremacy over
all of mankind. Now this claim would be arrogant, but atheists don't claim
it. Most atheists do claim to own themselves. I think any disagreement with
this claim of self ownership would be supremely arrogant.


Iuj el ".ie" (kiu lando?) demandis pri "bitmap"-oj, kaj iu el
".fi" (Finnlando) respondis, dirante pri libro en "Software Development
Kit".  Eble, la demandinto *ne* havas la "elvolvilo por malmol-varoj".

     (That was Esperanto.)

     (Some from ".ie" asked about bitmaps, and some from ".fi" responded,
saying about a book int the "Software Development Kit".  Possibly, the
asker does *not* have the development kit.)


Yeah, but these were not the wives.  The wives came from Nod, apparently
a land being developed by another set of gods.


For what it's worth, I got my can in three days from Chaparral. That's
UPS ground from CA to UT, YMMV. The stuff seems to work, and it doesn't
attract grundge like PJ-1 Blue does. I gave it the acid test, a full
day's worth of breaking in the Quadracer's new paddle tires down at the
sand dunes. If there's anything wet & stickey it will be coated with
sand at the end of the day, but the chain looked pretty clean.

As far as mail-order goes, if Chaparral has it in stock (and they can
tell you if it's in stock, or about how long it will take to back-order
it if it's not), I usually get it in three days. Competition Accessories
always seems to take a week or two to deliver. Motorcycle Accessory
Warehouse also takes a week or two, and after trying to buy some boots
from them last week, I don't think they actually stock anything. MAW was
about $30 cheaper than Chaparral on Alpinestars Tech 7 boots, but on
Monday I was hoping to get them by the end of the week, so I asked MAW a
completely unreasonable question: "Do you have them in stock?" The
conversation went something like this:

I need to know if you have some boots in stock.

	Do you want to pay with Visa or Mastercard?

I want to know if you have them in stock.

	Well, the computer doesn't show anything, I'd have to call the
	distributer to find out if we have them.

So do you have them or not?

	Don't you understand what I'm saying? I have to call our
	distributer to find out if we have them in stock or not.

Uh, right. So can you do it?

	Yea, call me back in an hour, and ask for Phil.

So an hour later Phil isn't there, but Mike says he'll check, and call
him back in half an hour. Half an hour later Mike isn't there either,
but he left a note that says they'll have them by the end of the month
(3 weeks away). Screw it, the 30 bucks isn't worth the hassle. I called
Chaparral and asked if they had them in stock:

	Ooh, Alpinestars? Probably not, they are hard to keep in stock,
	but I'll check. What size?

Size 10.

	Let's see, yes! Size 10, in blue & white, gray & white, black...

I'll take the blacks!

This was about noon on Monday, they arrived Thursday morning. Once
again, three days via UPS ground. I _like_ Chaparral.

I'm not completely down on MAW, they often have lower prices, but be
prepared to wait.

Oh, and if anyone's in the market for sand tires and other ATV stuff,
Scorcher seems like a good outfit, friendly, fast, had the tires I
wanted in stock, and were cheaper than Chaparral too.


Tippman 68 Special Semi-Auto Rifle
120 round feeder
18 inch barrel - composite
14 inch barrel - composite
6 inch barrel - composite
20oz CO2 tank
silencer
1200 rounds of paint
plus whatever else I have in the box.

all this for $375 or best offer


I don't believe you, and I don't believe your friend.

Why?

Because DES is not known to have any known plaintext attacks readily
availble. Unless your friend knows something and is keeping it secret,
he was bullshitting you.

Now, it IS possible that he noted a weakness in the *implementation* of
the Kerberos protocol. For instance, using a weak RNG to generate keys
might cut down on the keyspace (not for the user keys -- for the other
kind who's name I can't remember). However, this is not what was
claimed. You are claiming a general weakness in DES, which is not
known to exist in the open literature.

Don't get me wrong -- DES is weaker than it should be. However,
cracking it in 15 minutes requires more money be spent on the cracking
machine than ANY organization I know of has available.

--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com


The Phillies finished third 2 years ago.

The Phillies' opponents haven't hit much better


I need information on the medical (including emotional :-) pros and
cons of circumcision (at birth).  I am especially interested in
references to studies that indicate disadvantages or refute studies
that indicate advantages.  A friend who is a medical student is
writing a survey paper, and apparently the studies she has run into
are all for circumcision, the main argument being a lower risk of
penile cancer.

Please email responses as I am not a frequent reader of either group.
I will summarize to the net.

******************************************************************
* Gunnar Blix      * Good advice is one of those insults that    *
* blix@cs.uiuc.edu * ought to be forgiven.              -Unknown *
******************************************************************


You can design for ramp shutoff, brick-wall current limit or even
fold-back cutoff....sounds like you want "BRICK-WALL" current limit.

Your lead is correct to pull down the bias to the series regulator base
drive. In order to get the brick -wall, you need enough voltage gain on
the current sensor.  Normally a darlington on the current sensing
resistor will be adequate, but for infinite gain.. use an op amp to sense
the current releative to a stable voltage reference and use a driver to
turn off the base bias on the series-pass transistor.  Phase compensation
may be necessary with this closed loop control system if yopu have more
than 180 degrees phase shift in your feedabck circuit at unity gain OK??


Posted for a friend...

All in brand new condition ( less than 2 years old)

Full size bed - mattress, box spring, frame $135

White night table - 2 drawer (15x21) $60

White dresser - 6 drawer plus mirror (54x18) x 32" HEIGHT $170

White pantry - $35

Entertainment center - natural wood color $55

Coffee table - glass top and base (48x22) $135

Two white floor lamps - $15 each

One foldable table 36x36 $8

Four foldable chairs $5 each


Actually I am not sure you have understood what I have said. On several
occasions a minor party has put up an Arab for a Cabinet position. That
is the major party (Labour in this case) has agreed that a minor party
can have so many seats and that party nominates an Arab for one. This is
not acceptable to the major party which insists on the minor party
appointing a Jew. The favours owed, deals done, have all been settled.
What remains is exactly who is going to sit in Cabinet. The party that
gets the seat wants an Arab but that is not acceptable. This *is* racism.
It has nothing to do with politics at all.

Joseph Askew


I agree that Keenan is an excellent choice.  Did you see Mike
Lupica's column in Sunday's news?  My sentiments exactly.  I
think he just may be the one to instill some hunger and fire
into their hearts next season.  Either that or he's going to
be kicking alot of butt!

I'm here, but am new to this group and have been keeping fairly
quiet (you know, doing the "lurking" thing).  I don't have a
sense how many Rangers fans there are on the list either.  I
am a die-hard Ranger fan (I guess I have to be - I sat in the
Garden throughout the Penguins' - led by Mario's 5 goals - decimation
of them on 4/9), but am sick at the abundance of talent that has
been totally untapped, and the lack of heart displayed this
season.

Hurlbut was injured for quite a while.  I'm not sure, but I
think he may have recovered in time for the playoff run, and
if so, like you, question why he wasn't used.

I believe Kocur was used, in many instances, for his intimidation
factor.  Granted, he seemed to get an awful lot of ice time for
that reason alone, but you have to realize that when a team is
not doing any REAL physical intimidation (I'd like to have a nickel
for every time J.D. said 'They've got to take the body more'),
you've got to at least have some illusions ;-(

I agree and I don't know.

Sorry, I don't agree with you here.  I think Joey C. did a good
job filling in when he was asked to.  I can't imagine that it's
easy going from near 0 ice time to being a full timer.  I don't
seem to remember him turning the puck over at the blue line too
much, or failing to clear the zone.  He worked hard, and at
least didn't make any rookie mistakes.  As he said himself in an
interview, he can only give what he has.  and he did.

Absolutely.  I think attendance at the Garden was better on the
last day of the season, than any average night for the
Islanders.

The man is awesome.  In a way, I'm enjoying the playoffs more,
now that the Rangers aren't in them.  I can really appreciate
all the glory Mario is getting without 'hating' him because he's
on the opposing team.  He deserves it all, as far as I'm
concerned.

		- Mary


I have a 286 with a Western Digital WD-93044A hard drive. This drive is
782 cylinders with 4 read write heads PHYSICALLY, but LOGICALLY it is
977 cylinders with 5 read write heads (??!!).  In the CMOS setting
I am instructed to set it to type 17 (IBM 977 cyl. 5 read/write heads),

THE PROBLEM:  I was sent Western Digitals ISPFMT low level program from
the manufacturer, and was instructed to run it on the hard drive with
the CMOS setting set to type 17.  This worked "o.k." and I verified the
disk using the same program.  I then reloaded DOS which did a high
level format, again no errors, no bad sectors, etc.

BUT.... when I run Norton Speedisk 6.01 (or any other disk optimizer)
with the verify option set ON, I get ERROR verifying sector NNNN,
where NNNN can be any number (not the same all the time).

ANY IDEAS AS TO WHAT IS GOING ON HERE WOULD BE APPRECIATED!

Thank you!


Great, someone will be posting from 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' next

At this time the PLO did not exist and would not for the next 20 years.
You knew that didn't you? Perhaps you might want to add up all the Jewish
civilians killed during the 48 War. I'll opt for the massacre at Deir Yassin.
Which do you think is the greater?

While we are talking about this man I have included more of his testimony
that Harry naturally does not use nor does Myths and Facts. I wonder why.
No doubt he was lying right Harry?

                "The reason was mainly economic. That is
                 to capture booty in order to maintain
                 the bases which we had then established
                 with very poor resources. The main idea,
                 despite this, remained the conquest of
                 the village by force of arms, something
                 which was then unknown in the country,
                 and became a turning point in Jewish
                 military operations"

                 Yehuda Lapidot, Jabontinsky Archives Testimony

                 "Apart from the military discussion, the
                  Lehi put forward a proposal to liqui-
                  date the residents of the village after
                  the conquest, in order to show the Arabs
                  what happens when the IZL and the Lehi
                  set out together on an operation, and for
                  another main reason - it would cause a
                  great uproar throughout the land and
                  would be an important turning point in
                  the course of the battles. The clear aim
                  was to break the Arab morale and raise
                  somewhat the morale of the Jewish commu-
                  nity in Jerusalem, which had been hit
                  hard time after time, especially recenctly
                  by the desecration of Jewish bodies which
                  fell into Arab hands"

                  Yehuda Lapidot, Jabotinsky Archives
                  testimony as quoted by Yisrael Segal in
                  "The Deir Yassin File", published by
                  Koteret Rashit 19th January 1983

So it wasn't like the Holocaust more like Lidice - a warning, a punishment.
Collective and inflicted on unarmed innocents just not as through.

                 "When it comes to prisoners, old people
                  and children, there were differences
                  of opinion, but the majority was for
                  liquidation of all the men in the village
                  and any other force that opposed us,
                  whether it be old people, women or children

                  Benzion Cohen
                  Commander of the attack on Deir Yassin,
                  (J.A.T.)

Let me put in some words here
                a. premeditated
                b. murder
What do you say about the eyewitness testimony of the man in command?

                 "We had prisoners and before the retreat
                  we decided to liquidate them. We also
                  liquidated the wounded, as anyway we could
                  not give them first aid. In one place
                  about eighty Arab prisoners were killed
                  after some of them had opened fire and
                  killed one of the people who came to give
                  them first aid. Arabs who dressed up
                  as Arab women were also found, and so
                  they started to shoot the women also who
                  did not hurry to the area where the
                  prisoners were concentrated"

                  (J.A.T.)

Shooting prisoners, the wounded, as a warning to hurry? Sounds VERY
familiar to me, how about you? Heard of other people other places doing
these things?

                 "In one case - the Zahran family - only
                  one out of twenty five survived. In
                  another house they caught the sixteen
                  year old son Fuad. His mother was holding
                  him. They killed him with a knife. The
                  mother spent twenty years after that in
                  a mental hospital. A young woman and her
                  two year old baby were shot in the
                  street. Their bodies were left there.
                  They moved to the centre of the village
                  and started to kill everybody they saw or
                  heard, as soon as anybody opened his
                  door. They were using bombs [grenades],
                  machine-guns, submachine-guns. My cousin
                  escaped with bullet-holes in his clothes.
                  One of the officers put his machinegun
                  through a window and started shooting
                  outwards, killing everybody who moved.
                  They killed my uncle, Ali Hassan Zeidan,
                  and my aunt Fatima. She heard him call
                  'help me'. She ran to him and they killed
                  her. Another neighbour Haj Yarah,
                  heard some voices and came out. They killed
                  him too. His son Muhammad, who was
                  about seventeen, heard his father call
                  him and went to the same place. They
                  killed him. His mother heard her son cry
                  for help. She ran out and they killed
                  her. That was near my house. I saw this"

                  Muhammad Arif Sammour

Funny how 'Myths and Facts' does not see fit to include this too - after all
if he is reliable enough to report casualties why not the actual events? What
do you say about this Harry?

                 "In the exchange that followed four men
                  were killed and a dozen were wounded..
                  ..by noon time the battle was over and
                  the shooting had ceased. Although there
                  was a calm, the village had not yet surrendered.
                  The Irgun and Lehi men came
                  out of hiding and began to 'clean' the houses.
                  They shot whoever they saw, women
                  and children included, the commanders did
                  not try and stop the massacre...I
                  pleaded with the commander to order his
                  men to cease fire, but to no avail. In
                  the meantime twenty five Arabs had been
                  loaded on a truck and driven through
                  Mahane-Yehuda and Zichron Yosef. At the
                  end of the drive, they were taken to
                  the quarry bvetween Deir Yassin and Givat
                  Shaul, and murdered in cold blood"

                  Meir Pa'il, interview with Yediot Ahronot 4|4|1972


Unfortunately, that is the way the league is heading... You can't fight,
so the only way to retaliate against someone is with a cheap shot when
the ref isn't looking. Ulf has brought this to a high level... Players
stuck in the past (like Neely) who prefer fights to cheap shots
are at a disadvantage in the new system.

Lets face it, A cheap shot (like high sticking) is a very effective
method... It is easier to hide from the refs, has a better chance of
causing injury, and you can draw people into fights that way. I don't
like it, but that's the way the league is going.


*** On 04-21-93  04:51, Ikos had the unmitigated gall to say this:

 Ik> I'm in the market to upgrade my BIOS to a Phoenix 1.10 (got a new hard
 Ik> disk, discovered my BIOS doesn't have a "type 47") and I would like
 Ik> know where I can purchase one of these things.

Call Phoenix.  They can put you on line with replacement BIOS chips.  I had
to do this when I upgraded a Emerson 386/20 to an IDE drive.

Also, if you are installing an IDE drive, and there is a BIOS setting that
has a total volume the same as the IDE drive's volume, try using it.  The
IDE drive can usually respond to a variety of different geometries, as long
as the setting that you use is equal to or smaller than the drive's actual
size.  The controller will do the necessary translation automatically, in
most cases.

WARNING!!!  Do not use a BIOS setting that is even one byte larger than the
actual size of the drive!  A smaller setting will not harm the drive, but
you will be sorry if you go even one byte over.  Drive damage will not
result, but headaches will!

... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10


I need recommendations on imaging workstations. As a minimum, I have the
following requirements:

- High resolution graphics (Black and white) for display of Fax images.
- Support the display of multiple simulataneous windows:
     Fax image, 3270 emulation window to IBM host, etc...
- High speed network interface for 3270, image data, etc...
     (16Mb Token ring, EtherNet, etc...)
- Mouse

Any information/experience would be appreciated.

Thanks,

car.


Hi,

I am running X11R4 on an IBM RS/6000 (AIX 3.2) and X11R5 on a Sun4 (SunOS 4.1).

Since I run X on both colour and black&white displays, I need different
values for the same resource, so I want to use #ifdef COLOR in my
application defaults files. However, cpp is only invoked by xrdb, and
not when the resources are loaded on demand.

Is there a proper solution to this?

So far, the only proper solution I've come to think of, is to create 2
different files in my ~/app-defaults/, say XTerm and XTerm-color, and
set my XFILESEARCHPATH to either $HOME/%T/%N or $HOME/%T/%N-color.
But that does not always seem to work (e.g. executing a remote shell
command without reading the .cshrc does not set XFILESEARCHPATH).

Furthermore, I thought of using #include "XTerm" in XTerm-color.
However, for resources in XTerm that I want to override in XTerm-color,
things are different on both machines. On a Sun, the FIRST found resource
is used (i.e. the one from XTerm, the b&w one), while on an RS/6000, the
LAST found value is used (i.e. the one from XTerm-color). What can I do
about it?

I have one last question: for the specification of XFILESEARCHPATH, I
can use %T, %N, %C and %S. %T stands for app-defaults, %N for the
resource class, but what do %C and %S stand for?

Thanks in advance for replying,
Marcel.


Out and out lie.  Not substantiated. I do not understand statments
like these. Please stop making such ridiculous claims.  Maybe you
should consider working for or getting your information from the
National Inquirer for now on.

Ahh!  Rabbit from a hat.  Here is another desperate step to discount
any activity of the Washington Gay March.


Sorry, but yes he does, by your own description.

Humorous, this notion of an all-knowing, all-powerful god who must
"attempt" to "reconcile" with his lowly creations.  I realize that it
is not possible to penetrate such logic, but is there any chance that
you might consider that an omnipotent god need not "attempt" anything,
and further that an attempt to "reconcile" implies a lack of
omniscience?

What you are doing here is projecting human weaknesses onto your god.

But all humans are sinners, thus all pre-Jesus humans should have been
punished with death.  We aren't punished with sin now, of course,
because God has changed.  He required a brutal, sadistic sacrifice of
his own blood in order to allow us to sin without immediate death.

Yet he does so now.  He has changed.  The sadistic murder of his own
son has made him more tolerant of our sins.

Besides, his "midst" is everywhere, so your statement is meaningless.
He tolerates sin in Hell, which surely is in his midst as well.  Also,
given that he is all-knowing, he must have eternal knowledge of who
will commit which sins, as well as when and where, so what does
tolerance have to do with anything.  All of this is absolute nonsense,
unless your god is not indeed all-knowing and all-powerful, or unless
he doesn't take the personal interest in everyday affairs that you
claim.

Not relevant.  The claim of kindness and lovingness was made by you in
reference to your god.  The nature of his creations/victims is not at
issue.

I see: an all-knowing god who did not know what the ultimate outcome
would be, and an all-powerful god who had no choice in the matter.
Mindmush.

Did I miss something?  Did you give some indication at to why a KIND
and LOVING god should require sadistic human sacrifice to allow his
own botched creations to "achieve salvation"?

I note that your answer physically follows my question, but I fail to
discern a connection between the two.

By the way, for what am I being consoled?

Why not?  By the way, I note for the record that you didn't answer the
questions.

Death and/or eternal damnation is your idea of correctional
punishment?  I hope you aren't a parent.

This is quite an elaborate fantasy that you've constructed, but sadly
it lacks a basis in reality.  It also does not address the questions
that I raised.

The god that you describe is not a good parent, but a tyrant.

Sorry, was that the god of the Bible whose rules I am to follow, or
the god of the Koran?  The Vedas?  The Book of Koresh?  Oh, yes, it's
all so clear.


Typical.  Their first attempt at foriegn-policy adventurism, and no one even
notices.

Canadians.  They can even make balkanization boring.

--


Ah, so you admit newborns are innocent?  Then you cannot say _everyone_ is a
sinner.

About the only way top get out of this one is to claim that a newborn is a
sinner despite having not committed any sins, which is rather odd.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)


: >
: >I think you're letting atheist mythology confuse you on the issue of

: (WEBSTER:  myth:  "a traditional or legendary story...
:            ...a belief...whose truth is accepted uncritically.")

: How does that qualify?
: Indeed, it's almost oxymoronic...a rather amusing instance.
: I've found that most atheists hold almost no atheist-views as
: "accepted uncritically," especially the few that are legend.
: Many are trying to explain basic truths, as myths do, but
: they don't meet the other criterions.

Andrew,

The myth to which I refer is the convoluted counterfeit athiests have
created to make religion appear absurd. Rather than approach religion
(including Christainity) in a rational manner and debating its claims
-as the are stated-, atheists concoct outrageous parodies and then
hold the religious accountable for beliefs they don't have. What is
more accurately oxymoric is the a term like, reasonable atheist.

Bill

: >Divine justice. According to the most fundamental doctrines of
: >Christianity, When the first man sinned, he was at that time the

: You accuse him of referencing mythology, then you procede to
: launch your own xtian mythology.  (This time meeting all the
: requirements of myth.)

Here's a good example of of what I said above. Read the post again, I
said, "Acoording to ...", which means I am referring to Christian
doctrine (as I understand it), if I am speaking for myself you'll know
it. My purpose in posting was to present a basic overview of Christain
doctrines since it seemed germane.

Bill

: >with those who pretend not to know what is being said and what it
: >means. When atheists claim that they do -not- know if God exists and
: >don't know what He wants, they contradict the Bible which clearly says
: >that -everyone- knows. The authority of the Bible is its claim to be

: ...should I repeat what I wrote above for the sake of getting
: it across?  You may trust the Bible, but your trusting it doesn't
: make it any more credible to me.
: If the Bible says that everyone knows, that's clearly reason
: to doubt the Bible, because not everyone "knows" your alleged
: god's alleged existance.

Again I am paraphrasing Christian doctrine which is very clear on this
point, your dispute is not with me ...

Bill

: >refuted while the species-wide condemnation is justified. Those that
: >claim that there is no evidence for the existence of God or that His will is
: >unknown, must deliberately ignore the Bible; the ignorance itself is
: >no excuse.

: 1) No, they don't have to ignore the Bible.  The Bible is far
: from universally accepted.  The Bible is NOT a proof of god;
: it is only a proof that some people have thought that there
: was a god.  (Or does it prove even that?  They might have been
: writing it as series of fiction short-stories.  As in the
: case of Dionetics.)  Assuming the writers believed it, the
: only thing it could possibly prove is that they believed it.
: And that's ignoring the problem of whether or not all the
: interpretations and Biblical-philosophers were correct.

: 2) There are people who have truly never heard of the Bible.

: 3) Again, read the FAQ.

1) Here again you miss the point. The Bible itself is not the point,
it's what it contains. It makes no difference who accpets the Bible or
even who's unaware of its existence, Christians hold that it applies
universally because mankind shares the same nature and the same fate
and the same innate knowledge of God.

2) See above

3) If you read my post with same care as read the FAQ, we wouldn't be
having this conversation.

Bill

: >freedom. You are free to ignore God in the same way you are free to
: >ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known
: >in both cases. That an atheist can't accept the evidence means only

: Bzzt...wrong answer!
: Gravity is directly THERE.  It doesn't stop exerting a direct and
: rationally undeniable influence if you ignore it.  God, on the
: other hand, doesn't generally show up in the supermarket, except
: on the tabloids.  God doesn't exert a rationally undeniable influence.
: Gravity is obvious; gods aren't.

As I said, the evidence is there, you just don't accept it, here at
least we agree.

Bill

: >Secondly, human reason is very comforatble with the concept of God, so
: >much so that it is, in itself, intrinsic to our nature. Human reason
: >always comes back to the question of God, in every generation and in

: No, human reason hasn't always come back to the existance of
: "God"; it has usually come back to the existance of "god".
: In other words, it doesn't generally come back to the xtian
: god, it comes back to whether there is any god.  And, in much
: of oriental philosophic history, it generally doesn't pop up as
: the idea of a god so much as the question of what natural forces
: are and which ones are out there.  From a world-wide view,
: human nature just makes us wonder how the universe came to
: be and/or what force(s) are currently in control.  A natural
: tendancy to believe in "God" only exists in religious wishful
: thinking.

Yes, human reason does always come back to the existence of God, we're
having this discussion are we not?

Bill

: >I said all this to make the point that Christianity is eminently
: >reasonable, that Divine justice is just and human nature is much
: >different than what atheists think it is. Whether you agree or not

: YOU certainly are not correct on human nature.  You are, at
: the least, basing your views on a completely eurocentric
: approach.  Try looking at the outside world as well when
: you attempt to sum up all of humanity.

Well this is interesting, Truth is to be determined by it politically
correct content. Granted it's extremely unhip to be a WASP male, and
anything European is contemptable, but I thought this kind of
dialogue, the purpose of a.a, was to get at the truth of things. But
then I remember the oxymoron, reasonalble atheist, and I understand.


Nope.  Flames should be *interesting*.  Around here, guns & helmets
are the wallpaper.

Not everyone in rec.motoland is so easily amused.  Blaine, as an Elder,
has seen the Superflamers at their peaks (or depths, if you prefer).
With that sort of incendiary backdrop, awarding your faltering Bic a
0.5 was the purest act of charity.

Unless, of course, your audience has only seen several thousand similarly
uninspiring attempts in this arena.  In that case, the trite & boring
threshold tends to drift away from where you first set it, as yours will,
eventually (or not).

Until you can yank the flame out of Blaine's Internet Port before he
can io_close() it, you are in no position to lecture him, grasshopper.

Oh please (yawn), you're slipping further down the scale with each
successive attempt.  It's so embarrassing to watch.   Say, you're not
from Waco, are you?


Wiggins, Alan?

But that's besides the point.  I'm sure people would feel slightly
sympathetic for Rickey if he were killed.  But, they would also be
criticizing him a lot more for his actions.

Example?

How about Jose Canseco?  He gets a couple of speeding tickets, and all
of the sudden his attitude is awful.  What the hell do speeding tickets
have to do with clubhouse influence anyway?  So why do sportswriters
talk about it all the time.

Or Brian Hunter and Keith Mitchell?  Both of whom had DWI problems
towards the end of last year.  (Two years ago?)  It was cited as a sign
of their immaturity, etc.

Meanwhile, Dykstra almost killed both himself and Daulton, and I didn't
read any sportswriter complaining about that.  They may have talked
about how bad it was for the Phillies, but I NEVER read anywhere
criticism of Dykstra's character (or Daulton's intelligence, for that
matter) based on this incident.


The problem with turing your computer on and off constantly is not due to
the power surge at start up.  It is due to thermal fatigue.  You turn on
your computer, it heats up, and everything expands.  You turn it off, it
cools off, and everything contracts.  There is a limited number of cycles
of this that any component can take before it fails.  Modern electronics
are much more robust in this respect than their predeccesors.  In fact
portable computers are designed with this in mind since the sleep function
that extends battery life also greatly increaces the number of thermal
cycles that occur.  As a rule of thumb, if I am not going to use my
computer (and this includes the monitor) in the next 4-6 hours, I turn it
off (I always dim the monitor when not in use to prolong the life of the
phosphor).  I tend to think that with the pace of technical innovation in
the computer industry you should be much less concerned with the fatigue
life of your equipment and more concerned with how long your particular
architecture will be supported by hardware and software vendors. :")


Anyone able to get xwd to dump anything that is not black & white?

My text is not black....all I get is window borders.  I tried the -xy
option only because I didn't know what it did.....still no effect.


Devorski unfortunately helped to taint an otherwise brilliant display
by MacLean.  The Canucks tied up the Jets so tightly that I thought that
they were mailing them.

BTW, Greg...next time, don't fall asleep in geography class, it's pretty
sad when a fellow in Norway can spell Winnipeg properly and a guy in
North America can't.

One more thing...how LONG has Vancouver been in the NHL?  How many
championships do they have?

Oh yeah...and I CAN go to the Arena and see not one, not two, but
*six* championship banners hanging from the rafters.  3 Stanley Cup
banners, and 3 Avco Cup banners.  My NHL guide says that Vancouver has
won the Cup once (as many times as the rockin' town of Kenora has won it!)


Sure don't know what bike was being worked on but it sure wasn't a
Virago.  I've owned both the 750 and 1100 and you can do the filter
change in about 5 mins and nothing has to be removed.  Obviously the
"new" bike was modified as the stock machine is simple to work on.
  Watching for imitators!!


	The Sharks appear to be leaning toward picking Rob
	Niedermayer, a center (his brother Scott (?) is a defenseman
	picked by NJ a couple years ago).  They brought him in for a
	physical/tryout a week or so ago. From what I have read
	Niedermayer is the best skater in the draft, plays BOTH
	offense and defense, and isn't afraid of physical play.
	Defensively the Sharks are looking pretty good in terms of
	defense prospects (Rathje, Sykora, Ragnarsson), and our
	centers (Kisio et al) are getting old.

	With all of the small players the Sharks have I justs CAN't
	see them picking yet another small player like Kariya, he'd
	just get bashed by the oppposition and get a separated
	shoulder.


 I think we just found the difference between a citizens arrest (physical
 detention of a suspect) and a report/warrant.


You're sitting in your home reading a good book.  Your neighbors think
you're a quiet, upstanding citizen.  A random person anonymously calls
the authorities and tells them you beat your children, sleep with all
the neighbor wimmen, and own a bunch of "nasty 50mm machine guns."

Now what are they supposed to do?

Ah, I see.  They're supposed to send 100 men in horse trailers with
automatic weapons, storm onto your roof, and throw grenades at your
house with no warning.  Then, after subjecting you to noise torture
and telling the national news media for a month what a filthy son of
a bitch you are, they're supposed to gas you and knock your house
around a bit until they manage to collapse it, cause a fire, or
something equally conclusive.

Hope your neighbors don't tumble to this -- at least none of them that
might have a craving for a ringside seat at some cheap but dramatic
local entertainment at someone else's expense.  Or maybe even
PARTICULARLY at your expense.

At least they won't have to read you your rights, Joe -- obviously you
had no use for them anyway.

--


 Wanna bet ??? You must be too young to remember Bob Askin :-)
Read the Costigan commision report if you want to know about corruption
in OZ.


No crime here.

No crime here.

No crime here.
Also no substantiation of your claim that Koresh said this.  I for one have
never heard this mentioned before.  Where did you hear it?

Up to which moment?  The one where you decided that anyone who claims to be
God no longer has the protection of the Constitution?
What happened to the separation of church and state?

I have yet to see any evidence of *this*, either.  From what I hear the
*original* warrant (the reason for the Feb. raid) is still sealed.  What are
"unsealed" seem to be warrants taken out after the initial raid.

Funny, I haven't seen any of these "interviews."
Interesting that when the social services agencies investigated Koresh on
these previous charges, they found absolutely no evidence of abuse.

Funny, I don't remember hearing anything about childrens' statements,
either.  Where did you say you heard all this?

What *I* heard was that none of the children who left the compound early in
the seige exhibited any signs typical of abuse, physical or mental.  This
from the newspaper and national TV news.

Did you also hear that it's the job of the BATF and the FBI to lay siege to
homes where child abuse is suspected?  I thought you did.

"Clearly?"  Please tell us what Koresh was doing that can be construed as
other than "minding his own business" before the BATF raided the place.

Your logic just amazes me.  I think your grandparents who died in
Auschwitz would be turning over in their graves if they could hear how
cavalierly you throw away people's protection of law because you think
they're "scary" and "not the sort of person you'd want your daughter to
date."  What sort of people do you suppose the Nazis thought your
grandparents were?  Probably not the sort they'd want their little
frauleins dating...

And next I suppose you'll tell us exactly WHO these "well-trained killers"
have killed?

Because you said so, right?  Right.

So someone with a different background, say someone who didn't claim to be
the Messiah, in your book COULD shoot and kill Federal Law Enforcement
officials WOULD be a good citizen whose crusade enjoys our support?

Worth the paper it's printed on.

You're amazing, simply amazing.


A friend of mine is in the market for a 486 system

	Should have: 8 M of RAM
		     170+ M HD
		     SVGA Monitor and Card
		     5 1/4 &  3 1/2 FD"s
		     200+W PS

If you have one for sale then email me and I will forward to him.

Thanks,


Alberto, you've repeatedly misunderstood my postings.  You are now making the exact point
that I've made several times but with a different definition of religion.  You don't not
have to believe in the "religious" aspects of Judaism to be a Jew (this would confine
Judaism to be just a religion in the sense of a Christianity.).  So, by converting out of
Judaism, I don't mean just not believing in the god of Judaism.  I mean voluntarily
removing yourself from the Jewish nation.  I am an agnostic but still consider myself
Jewish because of my cultural heritage.  (I admit that many religious jews would argue
that I am not completely jewish because of my lack of faith, but Judaism is a religion of
dissent and debate isn't it?).  The fact that one can opt to become Jewish simply by
converting to Judaism makes the nation of the jewish people the *least* racist and most
open nation.  We have no quotas!

So I will once again make my point.  Defining a member of the Jewish nation by religion
(not, as you say, religious belief) is NOT racism.  You come to your incorrect conclusion
because you use a different definition for religion when you define the law of return and
when you define judaism.


Someone stated that the Davidian cult should not be associated
with Christianity. Well, I read all those four postings, and I'm
now even more convinced that Davididians are truly Christian
in nature. But sometimes it makes sense to re-label the cult,
especially if the ugliness is too much to handle.

Cheers,
Kent


Here is a list of (mostly) European 5" CD singles I have for sale.  All are
brand new and some are still shrink-wrapped.  Please e-mail if interested...


There's your problem right there. 'ASALA/SDPA/ARF' crooks/idiots stole
your brain. Just watch...

Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers,
Inc., New York (1952).
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
 million Muslim people)

p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).

 'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
 'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
 'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
 "We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
 'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The
  man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse.
  I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and
  went inside.

 The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for
 its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an
 iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black
 with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As
 the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face
 up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what
 was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted,
 as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so
 I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his
 slashed genitals."

p. 363 (first paragraph).

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me -
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags,
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains.
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

p. 354.

"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
 high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
 but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
 of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
 Moslem villages."

p. 358.

"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
 sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."

p. 360.

"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet
 down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said
 Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'

 Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
 clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
 then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
 spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though
 I heard our Utica brass roar.

 As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
 of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
 dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
 puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
 The came a shrill wailing.

 Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
 house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
 clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
 were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.

 'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
 over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
 breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
 afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
 the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.

 At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
 Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and
 tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
 through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
 arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."

p. 361 (fourth paragraph).

"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair,
 large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble
 where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet
 had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between
 the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun
 dress.

 The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He
 lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the
 pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed
 just below his neck, into the spine.

 There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was
 empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking
 colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."

p. 358.

 "...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
  north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands,
  Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
  coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would
  break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
  vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...

  An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
  smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
  Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."

Serdar Argic


We can only say that they are beyond about 25 AU, due to the low
accuracy of position determination by single detectors.

It may be a NEW Physics problem (i.e. a problem involving new
physics).  However, the data is not good enough to rule out the >100
models which use old physics.  New physics is a big step, and is only
tolerated when there is no alternative.  For example , the Dark Matter
Problem (there's more to the universe than meets the eye) is a question
of comparable mystery to GRBs, but we have much better data regarding
it.  Theoreticians postulate new particles all the time to explain it,
but no one will actually believe that these particles are real until an
experimentalist (or several) detects them in the lab.


	Accepted by whom?  People who think digital watches are a
	real good idea?  That 60 channels of television is 10x better
	than 6 channels of television?

	You're right.  Keep an open mind to the following:

	1. Taco flavored donuts.
	2. Cannibalism.  Good way to get that extra protein in the diet.
	3. Belief in Yawanga, armadillo god of parking meters.


-> >	I think he's talking about Kinsey who came up with the 10%
-> >statistic used heavily by gay groups to push their political agenda.
-> >Kinsey's work has often been accused of lacking a strong scientific
-> >backbone.
->
-> I really must defend my man Alfred.  Not that this poster was really
-> to be taken seriously, since the deletiae are a phobe's rants.  But
-> still, some who aren't such phobes mistakenly criticize my man.

	You really need to be able to support yourself without
insults.  The article you're calling rants actually had absolutely
none of my opinions and was only a series of factual statements.


              In the season 92/93 playing for EHC Freiburg/Germany

Benny.


i saw this posted and it brings an interesting event to mind .....

a few weeks ago i was in the DMV with ken. i was standing in a mile long
line waiting for some really bored looking person to fleece a bunch of
people from some dough. ken was sitting on a chair next to our helmets
wondering why everybody there looked to be about the social calibur of
people you would find at a laundromat when some young woman walked in who
required our conferring attentions. he came over and stood in line with me
while we watched her fill out some forms and then we noticed a little kid
about 4 years old reach over the bench and touch our helmets, one at a time.
i didn't particularly mind, and neither did ken (that the kid was touching
our helmets that is). but the helmets weren't on the most stable of
platforms, so ken scooted over there to resettle them and as soon as he
touched the helmets, mother of said child started shrieking at her kid "YOU
STAY AWAY FROM THOSE YOU SHIT!" and whopped the tyke brutally about the head
and shoulders.


						    ^^^^
 ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
	Whoa. Aren't you forgetting a couple of guys named Gant and Justice?

	He can lead off. He'll probably steal 40. He might hit .300. He'll
never hit 20+ homers. I think you went 2 for 4 on this one.

		       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	You said it all right there.

	Does anyone else out there not like Deon? I think he's all hype.
His .300 season last year was good, but I'm not convinced that he can do
it again. It reminds me (sorry) of the year 1987(?) when Tim Wallach hit
30 or so homers and had 127 RBI. It never even came close to happening
again. Of course, maybe I just prefer guys who go about their business
and don't play it up for the attention. Just my HO.

Doug Roberts - Larry Walker is God. Delino Deshields thinks he is.


I hate to pick on someone who may have been seriously injured (let's hope
not), but: semi-coherent sounds like a good description of someone who
shows up at the track w/ a VMax in the first place:-{

                  tom coradeschi <+> tcora@pica.army.mil


   [...]
   >The Attorney General publishes the number of court-ordered taps each year.
   [...]

   I believe you are mistaken. I don't believe the AG publishes the
   number of state wiretaps.

   - Carl

   --
   Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
    = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =

Hmmm.... now if we could have *3* keys kept in escrow, with one of the
groups keeping a key being the government, then the states would need
federal permission to run a wiretap.... interesting possibility:-)


Oh, that's not so bad. Every time I try to change the oil, I forget to
shut off the engine first. The hot oil comes out and scalds me, blinds
me, then the engine starts to overheat, and while I'm screaming in agony
and trying to crawl out from under the car, I grab the red hot exhaust
pipe and get third degree burns on my hands. My screams intensify as I
finally emerge from under the car, and I struggle to my feet in front of
the car, whereupon the radiator hose ruptures and sprays me with super
heated coolant. Then the engine seizes, but not before the cylinder head
explodes, piercing my flesh with fragments of red hot iron.

This happens every time. I'm starting to think I should pay the mechanic
$25 instead paying the hospital $250,000 and the dealer $25,000 for a new
car. This gets costly when you change the oil every 3000 miles.