Someone referred to my FAQ essay on homosexuality.  Since it hasn't
been posted for some time (and I've modified it somewhat since the
last time), I'm taking this opportunity to post it.  There is another
entry in the FAQ containing comments by some other contributors.  They
can be retrieved from ftp.rutgers.edu as
pub/soc.religion.christian/others/homosexuality.  It contains far
more detail on the exegetical issues than I give here, though
primarily from a conservative point of view.

----------------------------

This posting summarizes several issues involving homosexuality and
Christians.  This is a frequently asked question, so I do not post the
question each time it occurs.  Rather this is an attempt to summarize
the postings we get when we have a discussion.  It summarizes
arguments for allowing Christian homosexuality, since most people
asking the question already know the arguments against it.  The most
common -- but not the only -- question dealt with herein is "how can a
Christian justify being a homosexual, given what the Bible says about
it?"

First, on the definition of 'homosexual'.  Many groups believe that
there is a homosexual "orientation", i.e. a sexual attraction to
members of the same sex.  This is distinguished from actual homosexual
sexual activity.  Homosexuals who abstain from sex are considered by
most groups to be acceptable.  However in a lot of discussion, the
term 'homosexual' means someone actually engaging in homosexual sex.
This is generally not accepted outside the most 'liberal' groups.  In
this paper I'm going to use 'homosexual' as meaning a person engaging
in sexual acts with another of the same sex.  I haven't heard of any
Biblical argument against a person with homosexual orientation who
remains celebate.

I think most people now admit that there is a predisposition to be
homosexual.  This is often called a 'homosexual orientation'.  It is
not known whether it is genetic or environmental.  There is evidence
suggesting each.  The best evidence I've seen is that homosexuality is
not a single phenomenon, but has a number of different causes.  One of
them is probably genetic.  There are several groups that try to help
people move from being homosexual to heterosexual.  The best-known is
Exodus International".  The reports I've seen (and I haven't read the
detailed literature, just the summary in the minority opinion to the
Presbyterian Church's infamous report on human sexuality) suggest that
these programs have very low success rates, and that there are
questions about how real even the successes are.  But there certainly
are people who say they have converted.  However this issue is not as
important as it sounds.  Those who believe homosexuality is wrong
believe it is intrinsically wrong, defined as such by God.  The fact
that it's hard to get out of being a homosexual is no more relevant
than the fact that it's hard to escape from being a drug addict.  If
it's wrong, it's wrong.  It may affect how we deal with people though.
If it's very difficult to change, this may tend to make us more
willing to forgive it.

One more general background issue: It's common to quote a figure that
10% of the population is homosexual.  I asked one of our experts where
this came from.  Here's his response: Kinsey (see below) is the source
of the figure 10 percent.  He defines sexuality by behavior, not by
orientation, and ranked all persons on a scale from Zero (completely
heterosexual) to 6 (completely heterosexual).  According to Kinsey,
one-third of all male adults have had at least one experience of
orgasm homosexually post puberty.  Ten percent of all adult males have
most of their experiences of homosexually.  That was in 1948.  The
percentages held true in a followup study done by the Kinsey
Institute, based on data in the early seventies but not published
until the early 80s or so, by Bell and Weinberg, I believe.  I can't
put my hand on this latter reference, but here is the online
information for Kinsey's own study as it appears in IRIS, the catalog
at Rutgers:
   AUTHOR Kinsey, Alfred Charles, 1894-1956.
    TITLE Sexual behavior in the human male [by] Alfred C. Kinsey. Wardell B.
          Pomeroy [and] Clyde E. Martin.
PUBLISHER Philadelphia, W. B. Saunders Co., 1948.
  DESCRIP xv, 804 p. diagrs. 24 cm.
    NOTES "Based on surveys made by members of the staff of Indiana
	  University, and supported by the National Research Council's
	  Committee for Research on Problems of Sex by means of funds
	  contributed by the Medical Division of the Rockefeller Foundation."
	  * Bibliography: p. 766-787.
OTHER AUT Pomeroy, Wardell Baxter, joint author. * Martin, Clyde Eugene,
	  joint author.
 SUBJECTS Sex. * U. S. -- Moral Conditions.
  LC CARD    48005195
This figure is widely used in all scholarly discussions and has even
been found to hold true in several other cultures, as noted in the
recent NEWSWEEK coverstory "Is this child gay?" (Feb. 24, 1992).  A
journalist is running the rounds of talk shows this season promoting
her book that allegedly refutes Kinsey's study, but the scholarly
world seems to take her for a kook......

I've seen some objections to the Kinsey's study, but not in enough
detail to include here.  (If someone would like to contribute another
view, I'd be willing to include it.)

Most Christians believe homosexuality (at least genital sex) is wrong.
Not all, however.  A few denominations accept it.  The Metropolitan
Community Churches is the best-known -- it was formed specifically to
accept homosexuals.  However the United Church of Christ also allows
it, and I think a couple of other groups may as well.  The Episcopal
Church seems to accept it some areas but not others.  In churches that
have congregational government, you'll find a few congregations that
accept it (even among Southern Baptists, though the number is probably
only one or two congregations).  But these are unusual -- few churches
permit homosexual church leaders.  How carefully they enforce this is
another issue.  I don't have any doubt that there are homosexual
pastors of just about every denomination, some more open than others.

As to the arguments over the Biblical and other issues, here's an
attempt to summarize the issues:

The most commonly cited reference by those favoring acceptance of
homosexuality in previous discussions has been John Boswell:
"Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality", U Chicago Press,
1980.

The argument against is pretty clear.  There are several explicit laws
in the OT, e.g. Leviticus 20:13, and in Rom 1 Paul seems pretty negative on
homosexuality.  Beyond these references, there are some debates.  Some
passages often cited on the subject probably are not relevant.  E.g.
the sin which the inhabitants of Sodom proposed to carry out was
homosexual *rape*, not homosexual activity between consenting adults.
(There's even some question whether it was homosexual, since the
entities involved were angels.)  It was particularly horrifying
because it involved guests, and the responsibility towards guests in
that culture was very strong.  (This is probably the reason Lot
offered his daughter -- it was better to give up his daughter than to
allow his guests to be attacked.)  If you look through a concordance
for references to Sodom elsewhere in the Bible, you'll see that few
seem to imply that homosexuality was their sin.  There's a Jewish
interpretive tradition that the major sin was abuse of guests.  At any
rate, there's no debate that homosexual *rape* is wrong.

I do not discuss Leviticus because the law there is part of a set
of laws that most Christians do not consider binding.  So unless NT
justification can be found, Lev. alone would not settle the issue.

The NT references are all in Paul's letters.  A number of the
references from Paul are lists of sins in which the words are fairly
vague.  Boswell argues that the words occuring in these lists do not
in the lists (i.e. I Cor 6:9 and I Tim 1:10) are /malakos/ and
/arsenokoitai/.  Unfortunately it is not entirely clear what the words
actually mean.  /malakos/, with a basic meaning of soft, has a variety
of metaphorical meanings in ethical writing.  Boswell suggests
"wanton" as a likely equivalent.  He also reports that the unanimous
interpretation of the Church, including Greek-speaking Christians, was
that in this passage it referred to masturbation, a meaning that has
vanished only in the 20th Cent., as that practice has come to be less
frowned-upon.  (He cites references as late as the 1967 edition of the
Catholic Encyclopedia that identify it as masturbation.)  He
translates /arsenokotai/ as male prostitute, giving evidence that none
of the church fathers understood the term as referring to
homosexuality in general.  A more technical meaning, suggested by the
early Latin translations, would be "active mode homosexual male
prostitute", but in his view Paul did not intend it so technically.

For a more conservative view, I consulted Gordon Fee's commentary on I
Cor.  He cites evidence that /malakos/ often meant effeminate.
However Boswell warns us that in Greek culture effeminate is not
necessarily synonymous with homosexual, though it may be associated
with some kinds of homosexual behavior.  Given what Boswell and Fee
say taken together, I suspect that the term is simply not very
definite, and that while it applies to homosexuals in some cases, it
isn't a general term for homosexuality.  While Fee argues against
Boswell with /arsenokotai/ as well, he ends up suggesting a
translation that seems essentially the same.  The big problem with it
is that the word is almost never used.  Paul's writing is the first
occurence.  The fact that the word is clearly composed of "male" and
"f**k" unfortunately doesn't quite tell us the meaning, since it
doesn't tell us whether the male is the subject or object of the
action.  Examples of compound words formed either way can be given.
In theory it could refer to rapists, etc.  It's dangerous to base
meaning purely on etymology, or you'll conclude that "goodbye" is a
religious expression because it's based on "God by with ye".  However
since Boswell, Fee, and NIV seem to agree on "homosexual male
prostitute", that seems as good a guess as any.  Note that this
translation misses the strong vulgarity of the term however (something
which Fee and Boswell agree on, but do not attempt to reproduce in
their translation).

In my opinion, the strongest NT reference to homosexuality is Romans
1.  Boswell points out that Rom 1 speaks of homosexuality as something
that happened to people who were naturally heterosexual, as a result
of their corruption due to worshipping false gods.  One could argue
that this is simply an example: that if a homosexual worshipped false
gods, he would also fall into degradation and perhaps become
heterosexual.  However I find this argument somewhat forced, and in
fact our homosexual readers have not seriously proposed that this is
what Paul meant.

However I am not convinced that Rom 1 is sufficient to create a law
against homosexuality for Christians.  What Paul is describing in Rom
1 is not homosexuality among Christians -- it's homosexuality that
appeared among idolaters as one part of a whole package of wickedness.
Despite the impression left by his impassioned rhetoric, I'm sure Paul
does not believe that pagans completely abandoned heterosexual sex.
Given his description of their situation, I rather assume that their
heterosexual sex would also be debased and shameless.  So yes, I do
believe that this passage indicates a negative view of homosexuality.
But in all fairness, the "shameless" nature of their acts is a
reflection of the general spiritual state of the people, and not a
specific feature of homosexuality.

My overall view of the situation is the following: I think we have
enough evidence to be confident that Paul disapproved of
homosexuality.  Rom 1 seems clear.  While I Cor 6:9 and I Tim 1:10 are
not unambiguous and general condemnations of homosexuality, they do
not seem like wording that would come from someone who approved of
homosexuality or even considered it acceptable in some cases.  On the
other hand, none of these passages contains explicit teachings on the
subject.  Rom 1 is really about idolatry.  It refers to homosexuality
in passing.

The result of this situation is that people interpret these passages
in light of their general approach to Scripture.  For those who look
to Scripture for laws about issues such as this, it not surprising
that they would consider these passages to be NT endorsement of the OT
prohibition.  For those whose approach to the Bible is more liberal,
it is not surprising that they regard Paul's negative view of
homosexuality as something that he took from his Jewish upbringing
without any serious reexamination in the light of the Gospel.  As
readers of this group know by now, the assumptions behind these
approaches are so radically different that people tend to foam at the
mouth when they see the opposing view described.  There's not a lot I
can do as moderator about such a situation.

A number of discussions in the past centered around the sort of
detailed exegesis of texts that is described above.  However in fact
I'm not convinced that defenders of homosexuality actually base their
own beliefs on such analyses.  The real issue seems to rest on the
question of whether Paul's judgement should apply to modern
homosexuality.

One commonly made claim is that Paul had simply never faced the kinds
of questions we are trying to deal with.  He encountered homosexuality
only in contexts where most people would probably agree that it was
wrong.  He had never faced the experience of Christians who try to act
"straight" and fail, and he had never faced Christians who are trying
to define a Christian homosexuality, which fits with general Christian
ideals of fidelity and of seeing sexuality as a mirror of the
relationship between God and man.  It is unfair to take Paul's
judgement on homosexuality among idolaters and use it to make
judgements on these questions.

Another is the following: In Paul's time homosexuality was associated
with a number of things that Christians would not find acceptable.  It
was part of temple prostitution.  Among private citizens, it often
occured between adults and children or free people and slaves.  I'm
not in a position to say that it always did, but there are some
reasons to think so.  The ancients distinguished between the active
and passive partner.  It was considered disgraceful for a free adult
to act as the passive partner.  (This is the reason that an active
mode homosexual prostitute would be considered disgraceful.  His
customers would all be people who enjoyed the passive role.)  This
supports the idea that it would tend not to be engaged in between two
free adult males, at least not without some degree of scandal.
Clearly Christian homosexuals would not condone sex with children,
slaves, or others who are not in a position to be fully responsible
partners.  (However Fee's commentary on I Cor cites some examples from
ancient literature of homosexual relationships that do seem to involve
free adults in a reasonably symmetrical way.  Thus the considerations
in this paragraph shouldn't be pushed too far.  Homosexuality may have
been discredited for Jews by some of these associations, but there
surely must be been cases that were not prostitutes and did not
involve slaves or children.)

Some people have argued that AIDS is a judgement against
homosexuality.  I'd like to point out that AIDS is transmitted by
promiscuous sex, both homosexual and heterosexual.  Someone who has a
homosexual relationship that meets Christian criteria for marriage is
not at risk for AIDS.

Note that there is good reason from Paul's general approach to doubt
that he would concede homosexuality as a fully equal alternative,
apart from any specific statements on homosexuality.  I believe his
use of the Genesis story would lead him to regard heterosexual
marriage as what God ordained.

However the way Paul deals with pastoral questions provides a warning
against being too quick to deal with this issue legally.

I claim that the question of how to counsel homosexual Christians is
not entirely a theological issue, but also a pastoral one.  Paul's
tendency, as we can see in issues such as eating meat and celebrating
holidays, is to be uncompromising on principle but in pastoral issues
to look very carefully at the good of the people involved, and to
avoid insisting on perfection when it would be personally damaging.
For example, while Paul clearly believed that it was acceptable to eat
meat, he wanted us to avoid pushing people into doing an action about
which they had personal qualms.  For another example, Paul obviously
would have preferred to see people (at least in some circumstances)
remain unmarried.  Yet if they were unable to do so, he certainly
would rather see them married than in a state where they might be
tempted to fornication.

I believe one could take a view like this even while accepting the
views Paul expressed in Rom 1.  One may believe that homosexuality is
not what God intended, that it occured as a result of sin, but still
conclude that at times we have to live with it.  Note that in the
creation story work enters human life as a result of sin.  This
doesn't mean that Christians can stop working when we are saved.  The
question is whether you believe that homosexuality is in itself sinful
or whether you believe that it's a misfortune that is in a broad sense
due to human sinfulness.  If you're willing to consider the latter
approach, then it becomes a pastoral judgement whether there is more
damage caused by finding a way to live with it or trying to cure it.
The dangers of trying to cure it are that the attempt most often
fails, and when it does, you end up with damage ranging from
psychological damage to suicide, as well as broken marriages when
attempts at living as a heterosexual fail.

This is going to depend upon one's assessment of the inherent nature
of homosexuality.  If you believe it is a very serious wrong, then you
may be willing to run high risks of serious damage to get rid of it.
Clearly we do not generally suggest that people live with a tendency
to steal or with drug addiction, even though attempts to cure these
conditions are also very difficult.  However these conditions are
intrinsically damaging in a way that is not so obvious for
homosexuality.  (Many problems associated with homosexuality are
actually problems of promiscuity, not homosexuality.  This includes
AIDS.  I take for granted that the only sort of homosexual
relationships a Christian would consider allowing would be equivalent
to Christian heterosexual relationships.)

In the course of discussing this over the last decade or so, we've
heard a lot of personal testimony from fellow Christians who are in
this situation.  I've also seen summaries of various research and the
results of various efforts for "conversion".  (Aside from the
Presbyterian report mentioned above, there's an FAQ that summarizes
our readers' reports on this question.)  The evidence is that
long-term success in changing orientation is rare enough to be on a
par with healing miracles.  The danger in advising Christians to
depend upon such a change is clear: When "conversion" doesn't happen,
which is almost always, the people are often left in despair, feeling
excluded from a Church that has nothing more to say but a requirement
of life-long celibacy.  Paul recognized (though in a different
context) that such a demand is not practical for most people, and I
think the history of clerical celibacy has strongly reinforced that
judgement.  The practical result is that homosexuals end up in the gay
sex clubs and the rest of the sordid side of homosexuality.  Maybe
homosexuality isn't God's original ideal, but I can well imagine Paul
preferring to see people in long-term, committed Christian
relationships than promiscuity.  As with work -- which Genesis
suggests wasn't part of God's original ideal either -- I think such
relationships can still be a vehicle for people sharing God's love
with each other.

There's an issue of Biblical interpretation underlying this
discussion.  The issue is that of "cultural relativism".  That is,
when Paul says that something is wrong, should this be taken as an
eternal statement, or are things wrong because of specific situations
in the culture of the time?  Conservative Christians generally insist
on taking prohibitions as absolute, since otherwise the Bible becomes
subjective -- what is to stop us from considering everything in it as
relative?

When looking at this issue, it's worth noting that no one completely
rejects the concept of cultural relativism.  There are a number of
judgements in the New Testament that even conservative Christians
consider to be relative.  The following judgements are at least as
clear in the Bible as anything said on homosexuality:

  - prohibition against charging interest (this occurs 18 times in
	the OT -- it's not in the NT, but I mention it here because
	until relatively recently the Church did consider it binding
	on Christians)
  - prohibition against swearing oaths
  - endorsement of slavery as an institution
  - judgement of tax collectors as sinner

We do not regard these items as binding.  In most cases, I believe the
argument is essentially one of cultural relativism.  Briefly:

  - prohibition of interest is appropriate to a specific
	agrarian society that the Bible was trying to build,
	but not to our market economy.
  - few people believe that American judicial oaths have the
	same characteristics as the kind of oaths Jesus was
	concerned about
  - most people believe that Paul was simply telling people
	how to live within slavery, but not endorsing it as
	an institution
  - for people believe that the IRS is morally equivalent to
	Roman tax farming

The point I'm trying to make is that before applying Biblical
prohibitions to the 20th Cent., we need to look at whether the 20th
Cent. actions are the same.  When Christian homosexuals say that their
relationships are different than the Greek homosexuality that Paul
would have been familiar with, this is exactly the same kind of
argument that is being made about judicial oaths and tax collectors.
Until fairly recently Christians prohibited taking of interest, and
many Christians regarded slavery as divinely endorsed.  (Indeed,
slavery is one of the more common metaphors for the relationship
between God and human beings -- Christians are often called servants
or slaves of God.)

I am not trying to say that everything in the Bible is culturally
relative.  Rather, I'm trying to say that *some* things are, and
therefore it is not enough to say that because something appears in
the Bible, that ends the discussion.  We need to look at whether the
action we're talking about now has the same moral implications as the
one that the Bible was talking about.  If Christians want to argue
that there are reasons to think that the prohibitions against
homosexuality are still binding, I'm willing to listen.  Those who
claim that the question doesn't need to be looked at are kidding
themselves (unless they are part of the small minority who really obey
all the rules listed above).

One thing that worries me is the great emotions that this issue
creates.  When you consider the weakness of the Biblical evidence --
some laws in Leviticus, a passage in Rom whose subject matter is
really idolatry rather than homosexuality, and a couple of lists whose
words are ambiguous -- the amount of concern this is raising among
Christians seems rather out of proportion.  This should suggest to
people that there are reasons other than simply Biblical involved.
This is true on both sides -- clearly homosexual Christians are as
strongly motivated to find ways of discrediting the Biblical arguments
as conservative Christians are to find Biblical arguments.  But I
can't help feeling that the Bible is being used by both sides as a way
of justifying attitudes which come from other sources.  This is a
dangerous situation for Christians.

On the other side of the issue, I would like to note some problems I
have with the pro-homosexual position as it is commonly presented.
One of the most common arguments is that homosexuality is biologically
determined.  I.e. "God made me homosexual", and I have no choice.  I
think "God made me homosexual" is a fine view for people who already
believe on other grounds that homosexuality is acceptable.  But I
don't see it as an argument for acceptability.


I still can't understand all the hype about the Impalla SS, it STILL has
the ugly Caprice body (Orca on wheels).  The Caprice was the worst new
body style to come out of Detroit EVER! Now just because the LT1 engine
and a few suspension tweeks are being added.

Its STILL UGLY, its STILL a BARGE.  GM's answer to everything is "throw in
a V8 and someone will buy it."  Or "add some plastic ground affects
and a few stickers and call it a GT, GTZ or SS, and someone will buy it."

IMHO GM needs to scrap the Caprice body COMPLETELY and start over with a
BLANK sheet of paper.  No minor modification (wheel well treatments, tail
amp modification, or nose re-design or even the LT1 engine) will help
the existing Caprice.


# Mr Cramer-
#
# You are on one hand condemning the news media as;
#
# "The Role of the National News Media in Inflaming Passions" that
# was your message subject I believe.
#
# Then you turn around and actually take; From the Santa Rosa (Cal.) Press-Democrat,
# April 15, 1993, p. B2:
#
# Male sex survey: Gay activity low title.
#
# You even use such a title for the San Jose Mercury News- the Murky News.
#
# Now which is it?  Are you going to comdemn national media, then turn around
# and use it to support some position you present?  Seems somewhat contradictory
# doesn't it.

If you can show me that the Press-Democrat misrepresented the Guttmacher
Institute's study, do so.


Do we know yet who will be holding the hearings? And, if so, do
we know who is on the committee of question askers? I'm sure
many of us have potential questions we'd like to send to them.


I can't speak to sheer mass, but part of the problem is that HST
wasn't built to ever be brought back down.  It's not built for those
kinds of 'jolt' forces and there is no support cradle for it (which is
additional weight that would be required.

--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden


I don't know if anyone has posted a message like this yet, but i'm
getting really sick of espn showing the last minute of a hockey
game, in which the score was just tied, and then cutting out and saying
"sorry we can't show you this we have to show baseball tonight" (not
even a game. a friggin HIGHLIGHT show).
gee, sure would have been nice to see the isles/caps in overtime.
I live in Pittsburgh (yes i'm a pens fan) where hockey gets a lot
of coverage.  i can only imagine how a caps fan residing in Texas
must feel.


    Ah... Ok. I didn't realize that you were talking about an Apple
division other than AppleUS. AppleUS, being the main division, is the
one that contains what most people feel are the correct names and
configurations for the majority of Apple customers, and it is generally
assumed that you are talking about AppleUS when you just say Apple. At
least that's how it has always been in this newsgroup. All other Apple
divisions are, apparantly, free to change names and configurations if
they feel like it. I know that Apple Canada does this kind of stuff all
the time. It's not a mistake, it's Apple Sweden giving a different name
to an Apple product other than what AppleUS calls it.


I give up.  What's new about yet another interpretation of the
odl Adam and Eve story?
      -- Michael


Does anyone know what kind of car Mad Max used in "Road Warrior"?

They called it "the last of the V-8 Interceptors..."

I couldnt tell what it was, it was so chopped up.


[stuff deleted]

I agree with the flavor of this post, but disagree with one specific
argument.  That "has great hands" means nothing.  It seems to me that
a first-baseman's defensive value is not entirely (or even primarily)
from his ability to field grounders or catch popups.  How many such
chances does he get during a game?  Many fewer than he gets chances
to catch throws from 2B,SS,3B and P (I mean the total of these is
much higher than Grounder/Popup totals).  This implies to me that there
is value in catching these throws well, even if they are high, up-the-line
or in the dirt.  "Good Hands" are needed for such plays, and thus have
value.  I don't have any numbers for the relative number of occurences
of these plays, but I'd guess that the values of these abilities are
similar.  It's just like: you don't judge catcher's defense primarily
on how they field bunts and popups. (But not as marked I suppose).


Hello Net.People,

We have a LaserWriter Select 310 (standard 1.5Mb RAM) connected to an LC
III (4/80).

The print driver cannot find any Adobe Type 1 fonts or any TrueType fonts
in the System.

The connections to the printer and the Driver installation are correct
but this 310 printer still refuses to find fonts and work correctly out
of the box.

IMHO, an Apple product not working out of the box is a shameful event.

The installer disks for the printer install: LW Select 310 driver v 1.0,
PrintMonitor v 7.1 and backgrounder v 3.1 (!) on a System 7.1 LC III.

Has anyone else had similar experiences with this printer/configuration,
because we really need some help on this one.


DON MATTINGLY IS THE BEST FIRST BASEMAN IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.....ALWAYS
HAS BEEN.....ALWAYS WILL BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Perhaps it's prophetic that the week "Where are they now?" appears and
I can claim to be a still-active old-timer, my news software gets bit
rot and ships outgoing articles into a deep hole somewhere...  Anyway,
here's a repost:

These days you don't have to fall far behind... Last Monday
(admittedly after a long weekend, but...) I had 800+ messages just in
those few days.  Aside from a hiatus while changing jobs last Fall
I've been here since 1990.

Hell, Norway?  The rubber room at the funny farm?  Seminary?  It is
not given to us to know...


Panasonic KX-P2124 24-pin Dot Matrix Printer

-320 cps
-1/127 in. dot diameter
-16-character LCD
-Super Quiet Mode
-Draft, Letter Quality, Super Letter Quality Fonts
-Rear, Bottom, Front, or Top paper feeding (Friction or Tractor)
-Color compatible (needs optional Color Kit)
-includes Windows 3.1 Panasonic printer drivers disk.

Bought it in Jan. '93 and have used it very little. Still has
original ribbon cartridge. This is a very nice printer and is in
brand new conditio I just dont use it often enough and I need money.

I'll take $200 for it.


Gateway service has confirmed my suspicion, echoed by a couple of people
who responded to the original request for help.  The ATI VLB video board
uses the addresses for COM 4.  They could suggest no work around.
I will be returning the DF IO card they supplied for COM 4 (even though it
could not possibly work) for credit against a bus mouse.  This will free
up the COM port I need - too bad the original salesman who suggested either
the DF IO card or the bus mouse would solve my need for a port didn't know
enough about the hardware.

Otherwise I must say that the 486DX2/66 system has worked very well - no
problems with any other hardware or software.


It used to live in a 1990 SE, and is marked 344-0062, and the ROMs
that go with it are 341-0701 & 2. Is this the solution to the person
who wants to upgrade to FDHD ?
cheers
Mike.


Does anyone out there know of a site that might have
a 2-D spline fit routine useful for interpolation?

thanks for any help,
Craig Morioka


That is an assumption on your part.  Where is your proof that one always will
degenerate into hating the sinner, because he hates the sin.

I am reminded of the Civil Rights movement in America.  It is true that many
individuals hated the proponents of racism.  It is also true that many
individuals hated segregation and discrimination with their whole heart and
never degenerated into hating the individuals who practiced it.  Dr. King's
message was this.  Love the individual, the loving of the individual would
transform him into a friend.  However, this did not take away his hatred for
segregation.  His hatred for injustice.

I would ask, "Did John the Baptist practice love when he criticized the Jewish
Leaders of his day?"  Did Jesus Practice love when he threw the moneychangers
out of the temple?

We must have at least a distase for sin.  We must in order to fight it in
ourselves.  Also we must be ready for the call from God to call sin by its
right name.  Jesus loved everyone, but he called sin by its right name.

It is true that love for others is to guide every step of our walk, but it is
also true that sometimes the love for God calls us to stand up for truth.

--
"Competition is the law of the jungle.
 Cooperation is the law of civilization."  --  Eldridge Cleaver


I just got caller-id (except Bell calls it "call display" and didn't know
what I was talking about when I asked for "caller-id").  I got the
cheapest display box I could find, and hope to convert it to serial out.

The chip used is an 18-pin DIP marked "CDT 14-285" and "1473 9220".
I presume the 9220 is the date.

I'm hoping somebody out there knows something about this chip, to save
me a very strange few hours hooked up to a scope, asking my friends to
call me again and again.

I'll post any interesting replies, and my experiences.

-simon tooke


  One of the main reasons nations like the US and RUSSIA observe satellite
  that have been launched is FORBs system whick loft nuclear bombs into
  orbit which are planned to be detonated in LEO causing EMP pulses
  interfering with the target command and control system.


So, who is Mykotronx, Inc.?  It would be nice to know that they are
not a front company used by an intelligence or other agency of the
U.S. government.

While we are at it, the chip design(s) should be examined and verified
against silicon to insure no trap doors or hidden protocols exist in silicon,
regardless of the security level of the encryption algorithm.  There is
no proof that the chip won't squeel and role over for someone with the
proper knowledge to interrogate it via the communications link.

The design examination should be done to the gate level.  Also, how does one
verify that what you are looking at is reflected in tapeout, or masks?

The silicon should be examined as well, the design in hand (a clean room
publicly defined clipper chip) can be merged with another design later, or
changed between completion and mask out.  There is little proof that what
you are told is in the chip is all that is in the chip.

Put the (verified) masks in escrow, and use them for chip production,
use a third escrow party for programming the chips.


Hi All,

I've heard of a commercial package named ZINK, that could convert MS-Windows
source-code to XWindows source-code (C). The only problem is, the package
isn't available in Holland (at least, I can't find it anywhere :-( )

Is there another package (preferrably free- or shareware), that can do the
same thing? And if so, where can I find or buy it?

Thanks in advance


Someone from NASA posted that there were very significant mass margins
on the HST re-boost mission.  A while back i had asked why not carry
the EDO pallet up,  and the answer was the mass margins were tight enough, they weren't even carrying extra suits.

Where's wingo when you need him:-)

COme on.   Knock that S**T off.

YOu forget,  that during skylab,  they did  overnight mission planning
for the repair EVA's.   Also during theøÄ
Intelsat Mission,   they did overnight  WETF simulations.
I somehow think they could train up a new  EVA in  8 months.

And as for building hardware,  anything can  be built if you want it
bad enough.

YOu forget,  the  BUS 1  is already built.  all they'd ahve to do
is soup it up, even test it  on a delta mission.

Don't get into this mode of  negativism.   besides,  at the rate
missions slip,   the Discovery won't launch on this mission until
March.  that's almost a year.

Ah,  but how much more expensive is the Second HST servicing mission.

YOu forget,  there is a bum FGS,  the Solar array electronics, are
getting hinky  and there is still 8 months until the servicing mission.

The time for the space walks are growing rapidly.  THis was orignally
planned out as 3 spacewalks,  now they are at 5 EVA's  with 3 reserve
walks.

If the SMT can avoid a second servicing mission that's $500 million
saved.  If the Weight savings,  means they  can sit on orbit  for 30 Days.
and  handle any contingency  problems,  that's quite a savings.

Of course,  there wasn't any need for the Saturn  V  after apollo too.

as for the problems with the aperture door,  I am sure they can
work out some way to handle  that.  Maybe a Plug  made from
Frozen ice.?   it'll keep out any contamination,
yet sublime away  after teh boost.


tha

Any death is serious.  Wanna discuss match control?  Firearms related
unintentional deaths among children ages 14 and under are the fault of one or
more negligent persons, not the gun.

Providing false hope, then, is the intent?

200% increase in California schools, eh?  Gun control is working fine, there!
So your religion is different.  Does that make it his wrong?  Even assuming
Koresh actually made that decision, and the verdict is still out on that.

Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com


: Oh bull pucky, Ed. They use dogs because a) Many people are
: scared shitless of them and b) because of the nose and the
: vision and hearing. Without their cop partner in attendance,
: the dog is so much meat in the hands of any human with
: a bad attitude and al ittle training in violent force.

One of the things that police dogs are used for is to
"take the bullet" instead of the human police officer.
As Charles said, many people are scared of dogs and will
panic when one goes on attack.  They will then turn their
weapon on the dog and this allows the police officer to
take control.

: Your advice is correct, but a dog is still no match for a trained
: human in a fight.

A single person vs. a single dog in a face-to-face confrontation should
really be no contest.  The dog is no match for a human willing to fight.
Multiple dogs is a different story . . .


Or a religion is a cult that got co-opted by people who are better at
compartmentalizing their irrationality.

Peter


  What is your proof that they "did the best they could"?   Unless
  they had strong evidence that the children were in IMMEDIATE danger
  then "the best they could" have done was to SHOW RESTRAINT.

  Some of us DID predict this outcome, or at least suggested a
  strong possibility of it.  I, for one, said that in the event of
  an assault against the building the CHILDREN were the ones in danger
  either from the assault itself or from a "Jonestown" (my phrase
  a week after the seige started) style suicide.  And as I pointed
  out then, and repeatedly over the objections of people on the net
  who disagreed with me, an adult may freely choose suicide but they
  have no right to impose this choice on their children.

  Now, while I don't expect the FBI to pay any attention to what I
  have to say on this, I *DO* expect them to figure it out on their
  own or to take the advice of experts.  The cult specialist inter-
  viewed in yesterday's Boston Globe said he was repeatedly "stonewalled"
  by the FBI when he pointed out to them that their confrontational
  tactics played perfectly into Koresh's mad view of the world and so
  increased the chance of a tragic outcome.

  Give *US* a break!   Pumping teargas for 45 minutes into a compound
  filled with CHILDREN?!!   This doesn't seem to show much regard for
  their lives or safety.   "Nontoxic teargas" is an oxymoron.  Children
  have tiny respiratory passages which are easily blocked by the secretions
  induced by teargas; moreover teargas can easily cause fatalities in anyone
  subject to laryngospasms, asthma, or heart disease.

  If a madman is holding a gun to a hostage, someone who provokes the
  madman by attacking him bears nearly as much repsonsibility for the
  death of the hostage as the madman himself.  These kinds of situations
  have to be handled *delicately* - not by surrounding a place with
  tanks and heavily armed personnel and blaring rock music from loud-
  speakers at all hours.   That approach is idiotic.

  The solution is to greatly reduce the authority of the "the authorities".
  The Feds showed themselves here, as they have so many times in the
  past, to be a gang of trigger-happy, impulsive, yahoos who cause more
  trouble than they prevent.    Their confrontational approach reinforced
  every single message Koresh was giving his followers, virtually guarantee-
  ing that whatever crazy solution Koresh proposed would be followed
  willingly.   This was pointed out here, on Compuserve, in the press,
  just about every place except in the Justice Department where it seems
  a n.i.h. philosophy prevails.


Thank you very much for clarifying your position and source.  Apologies
are accepted in good faith.  This absolutely was no attempt to bring you to
your knees, It is merely a suggestion to really check and re-sheck your
sources before throwing a flame into the net.

Thanx again


Yes, Xhibition is for the X Window System.  The X Window System Conference
remains the largest and most complete conference devoted to X.  Nineteen full
and half day tutorials and thirty-six technical sessions over three days
provide huge amounts of information for X application developers.  Add vendor
exhibits and a Product Presentation track to provide information on what
folks can purchase today, and you have a complete show focused on X11.

Speakers at Xhibition 93 include:

  Bob Schiefler, Lu Abel, Mark Ackerman, Paul Asente, Doug Blewett,
  Donna Converse, Jim Fulton, Oliver Jones, Keith Packard, Ralph Swick,
  Doug Young, and many others.

Xhibition is growing (fortunately for us:-) and we have added some additional
conferences.  Surveys that we have given have indicated additional topics of
interest.  These include: object oriented technologies such as the Object
Management Group's ORB and CORBA; C++ as it applies to X; client server
technologies such as DCE; threads; databases- object oriented and relational;
and (not surprisingly when you look at the audience) Windows NT.

With the bulk of the Xhibition audience (and the UNIX community) developing
applications for in-house or custom use, a new 32-bit operating system from a
player as large as Microsoft needs to be evaluated. With MS Windows on so many
desktops, and the price of computing power dropping, its successor needs to be
evaluated.  As corporations begin to look at NT, so must their developers and
suppliers.

The mission of the Xhibition technical conferences is to provide information
to the application developer and to the technology planner.  The NT Conference
at Xhibition is designed to do just that.  We worked with Microsoft to provide
the *only* conference this year specifically designed to show X and UNIX
developers the capabilities of Windows and NT.  If you aren't sure that NT has
what you need for your application development or systems deployment, this is
the place to find out.  Ask the folks from Microsoft, get them to show you
what you need.  Conference attendees will receive NT Software Development
Kits- to bang on, evaluate, and generally to see for yourself.

I hope this doesn't sound like an NT commercial (it should sound like an
Xhibition commercial:-).  I just want to reiterate that the Xhibition audience
is growing and Xhibition is growing along with it.  The industry is a
confusing place at the moment with UNIX, COSE, NT, DCE, CORBA, and all of
the other acronyms sprouting up.  Xhibition can help sort out the confusion.

-Aub Harden
 Technical Program Manager
 harden@ics.com

        X H I B I T I O N   The Conference and Trade
         ******    *****    Show for Corporate
        *      *       *    Software Development
         ******     ***
             *         *    201 Broadway
          ***     *****     Cambridge, MA  02139

              Windows on Distributed Computing

                 June 7 - 11,   San Jose, CA

           xhibit@ics.com  uunet!ics.com!xhibit
        Voice: (617) 621-0060  Fax: (617) 621-9555


%
%By Elias Davidsson - April 1991 (Revision Oct. 1991)

Note - you are already posting "facts", some of which are outdated.

The biased presentation of facts, as well as the conclusions that
you reach leave me little hope of engaging in any fruitful
exchange that might lead to a "meeting of the minds".  It is to those
who read with open mind, that I address myself.

%The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of
%Racial Discrimination adopted by the General Assembly of the
%United Nations in 1965, has now been ratified by most member
%states. Article 1 of this Convention defines the term racial
%discrimination as "any distinction, exclusion, restriction or
%preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic
%origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing
%the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of
%human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic,
%social, cultural or any other field of public life."

While the ideals embodied in this text are worthy goals,
as the text currently stands I know of no country in which
racial discrimination of some sort can not be found.
It makes no mention of the need for for a legislative
violation.

%The General Assembly endorsed in 1975 a resolution defining
%Zionism as a form of racism and racial discrimination. The
%important, correct and legitimate resolution is incomplete since
%it does not include operative statements designed to end Israeli
%racial discrimination. Meanwhile the United States, on behalf of
%Israel, are exerting heavy pressure on member states of the United
%Nations to repeal this resolution and give Israeli racial
%practices - Zionism - moral legitimacy.

If you are, in principle, advocating UN intervention via operative
statements in this case, it must therefore hold that they can be
applied to any other case where the council perceives some form
of racial discrimination as previously exhibited.

Scarey thought.

%The very definition of Israel as a State belonging to the Jews of
%the world (but not to its inhabitants), alienates all native
%non-Jews born in that country.

Actually, I know quite a few native non-Jews born in Israel that are not
alienated by this law.  If you had said some, you would probably be
correct, however your tendency to exagerate and slant facts becomes
apparent.  This slant permeates the text.

%Practically all non-Jews who are living in or originate from areas
%under Israeli control, identify themselves as Palestinians. Most
%of them are Muslim, many are Christian. A few Jews, including the
%author of these lines, also identify themselves as Palestinians.

The above statement is not true.  Practically all - discounting
Beduins, Circassians, Druze, and some other fringe groups.
Your own identification is a matter that has no bearing upon the
issue.  You could equally identify yourself as a [insert group].

%Zionism took off in Europe at the end of last century. It's aim
%was to create a Jewish state in Palestine in spite of the adamant
%opposition of Palestinian Arabs (95% of the population).

If I recall correctly, at the time "zionism" took off, there
was no adamant opposition in Palestine.  I am open to any
factual contradictory evidence .

%But the
%Zionists were more powerful, militarily, economically and
%technologically, and succeeded in 1948 in conquering 70% of the
%area of Mandatory Palestine. After driving into exile most native
%Arabs from the conquered areas, approximately 750,000 people, and
%razing most of their villages to the ground, the Zionists could
%finally establish a predominantly Jewish State. Only 150,000
%non-Jews remained on Israeli territory.

Do you therefore contend that the 400 villages you mention further on "most
of their villages"?

%Once the Jewish State was established, it began enacting laws to
%help the confiscation of land from native non-Jews, their
%political repression and their destitution.

There is no doubt that laws passed provided a framework which was later
used for these purposes.  However, you seem to imply that this was the
intention a priori, which implies a policy and agenda.  My knowledge was
that this was not the case.

You also neglect to mention the circumstances that surrounded
this.  As you do again, below.

%In 1967 the State of Israel invaded Egypt and Syria and occupied
%the rest of Palestine (the West Bank and the Gaza strip). Thus
%another 1.5 million Palestinians fell under its juridiction. Its
%occupation of Palestinian and other Arab territories is considered
%illegal by the international community, as reflected in Security
%Council resolutions. Israel has rejected all U.N. resolutions and
%began without delay to entrench its occupation and rule over these
%territories with the aim of annexing them at the appropriate time.

Not quite accurate.  Israel has not rejected all the resolutions,
though it has conflicting understanding with regards to some of them.
Israel never annexed the Sinai, West Bank, or Gaza.  The other
annexations were brought about partly due to the UN resolutions.

%Part of these territores, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights,
%have already been forcefully annexed by Israel, in defiance of
%international law and UN resolutions.

Out of curiousity, provided that the annexees are granted citizenship,
what int'l law do you claim prohibits annexation of territories
captured in war?  Has this ever been applied to any other country
previously (other than Iraq) ?

%It must be emphasized that, although these people live under
%different regimes, they are united in their self-perception as
%Palestinians, that is as people identifying with Palestine, a
%territorial entity (not an ethnic or religious entity).

Incorrect! Palestinians themselves claim to be discriminated against
on an "ethnic or racial" basis.  Therefore your above statement is
incorrect.

I also note that given the previous definition of racial discrimination,
the only means that you could argue for that is nationalistically.
However, no such nation has existed.  It definitely did not exist
at the time of the creation of Israel, in which case you can not
argue racial discrimination during that period!

%Furthermore Palestinians generally consider the PLO both as a
%symbol of national identity and as the unchallenged authority that
%represents them in world affairs.

Once again, some do, some don't.

%The non-Jewish population living in the Palestinian and other Arab
%territories occupied by Israel in 1967 suffers not only blatant
%discrimination but is subject to brutal military occupation.

Another generalization, but then again, you don't seem to care
about anyone other than the Palestinian people, whose cause you
espouse.

%licence, to start a business and to buy industrial equipment, the
%right to educate children, all of these basic rights are subject
%to arbitrary rulings by military authorities and cannot be
%challenged in court.

Incorrect once again.  They have the ability to appeal.
Furthermore, although you may not agree with them, not all
of the military rulings are senseless or arbitrary.  Some
are, but this is not due to the "whims" of the military as
much as the sizeof the task/organization.

%Only Jewish inhabitants of the occupied
%territories are permitted to carry firearms.

Incorrect once again.  I know two Arab policemen who lived in
Daheisha and there were more.  Of course, with the outbreak of
the intifada they were forced by the locals to resign, bitterly.

%Jewish settlers have
%right to 6-7 more water per person than non-Jews. Jewish residents
%of these territories number now about 100,000 people. It is Israel
%governmentUs policy to increase this number substantially, in
%total defiance of international law, UN resolutions and the will
%of the population. The State of Israel systematically confiscates
%land from non-Jewish inhabitants of these territories for Jewish
%settlement.

That is no longer true, and I can't help but wonder what your
purpose is/was in posting this.

%Some 800,000 people in Israel proper,are not Jews. Most of them
%consider themselves Palestinians with Israeli citizenship. For
%many years after the establishment of Israel they were subjected
%to harsh military control. Much of their land was confiscated by
%the State and handed to Jewish organisations for exclusive Jewish
%settlement. They have been subject to massacres, destitution and
%humiliation. While they enjoy, with Jewish Israelis, the right to
%vote, they are discriminated against both through law and in
%practice.

Once again, to hell with the other minorities that don't fit in,
right?  Their are many villages who did not suffer in the way
you seem to indicate, Abu Gosh comes to mind.  Yes, some did but
as a result of what actions?

%Approximately 92% of the surface of the State of Israel within the
%Rgreen lineS is for all purposes closed to Palestinians who are
%second-class citizens in Israel. They may neither legally live on
%such land, nor rent or cultivate it. A direct effect of these
%policies is that native non-Jewish citizens of Israel are denied
%residence and membership rights in most rural communities in
%Israel, including the collective settlements, kibbutzim. Non-Jews
%are discriminated against in many other ways: The Government
%starves local authorities of Palestinian villages and townships of
%funds; Jewish city councils force Palestinians to live in ghettos;
%Jewish families receive higher child allocations than their
%non-Jewish neighbors, Palestinian schools suffer underfunding and
%understaffing (as compared to Jewish schools); Palestinian
%children are denied the right to learn their history and
%literature; Israelis who struggle for equal rights and for the end
%of racial discrimination, suffer continuous harassment by the
%authorities.

1.  There are some kibbutzim with Arab/Non-Jewish members.
    It is up to the members of the kibbutz.  There is no
    legislation against it, nor against a purely non-Jewish
    collective.

2.  Funds are the result of political lobbying.  Bearing in mind
    that non_Jews compose ~20% of the voting population, it has
    never failed to amaze me that they fail to form one large
    bloc, and increase their power.  The recent elections are a case
    in point.

3.  Please provide factual evidence supporting your allegation
    with regard to educational material.  You have obviously
    never seen the curriculum of a school in the West Bank.
    It is based upon Jordan's school system.

4.  With regard to your last statement, it is simply another
    gross generalization.

%The State of Israel refuses to acknowledge itself as the State of
%all its inhabitants.  Although the Israeli Cabinet has never
%openly endorsed the 'transfer' idea (the forced removal from the
%country of its native Palestinian population, that is, its
%ultimate Judaization), Israeli government policies towards
%non-Jews bear the mark of this 'Final Solution'. No attempt is
%made by the Zionist authorities to integrate Palestinian Arabs
%into Israeli public life. Thus, although comprising approximately
%17% of the population of Israeli citizens, no Palestinian citizen
%of Israel has ever served as Cabinet member, as director of
%ministry or of a national institution, as judge of the Supreme
%Court, as ambassador of Israel, or in any leading position in
%Israeli economic or financial life. Even the director of the
%Ministry for Arab Affairs - yes, such a thing exists! - is a Jew.

Another generalization, but lets not stop here.
The transfer idea was espoused by one party in the last gov't,
Moledet.  It was intended to be a solution to the problem in the
territories, not the country itself.  With regard to other items,
I recall at least one Arab ambassador, and the rest was covered
previously.

%Although sexual
%relations between and cohabitation of Jews and non-Jews are legal,
%they are considered by Israeli/Zionist society somewhat a betrayal
%of the Jewish and Zionist ethics. The Israeli educational system
%nurtures this attitude in a systematic way.

When was the last time you were in Israel?  That is simply not true,
nor has it been for quite some time.  The question of religious
intervention is best answered by the proportional representation and
the lack of any Arab party bloc to counter the orthodox one.

%Zionism rejects the idea of a modern secular state, based on
%equality of all citizens. This is one main reason why Israel has
%not produced any written Constitution.

Simply incorrect.
The answer is political.  Once again, your failure to understand the
dynamics and movements inside Israeli gov't, relegates your
contentions to the sidelines.

%Zionism predicates a state
%where Jews have privileged rights. Thus, according to Israeli law,
%a Jew born in London, who has never visited Israel, does not speak
%Hebrew and professes atheism, is granted automatic Israeli
%citizenship, while native Palestinian inhabitants who happen to be
%Christian or Muslim, are treated almost as aliens.  Racial
%discrimination, as defined in international law, is thus not only
%reflected in Israeli laws and policies, but is grounded in the
%very nature of Israel as a Jewish state.

But the discrimination is not based upon race.
Oops, sorry, nasty habit I have of countering malicious false truths.

%Any proposal for Israeli-Arab and Israeli-Palestinian peace that
%does not address the issue of racial discrimination by Israel -
%that is the Zionist nature of the State of Israel - is thus doomed
%to fail.

Real world intrusion - any proposal that does is doomed to fail.
Of course, I wouldn't expect you to understand, wrapped up as
you are in your VIEW of things.  Let's not let anything penetrate
shall we!?!  I may be a bit too sarcastic but there is a limit to the
amount of patience I have for rubbish at 02:00.


His performance at the plate may well be from the shoulder injury
received when he ran into the wall making a catch in the Cincy series.
It may also be him pressing a little.

As for the baserunning, it does not appear to be just Lankford.
Dent made the bad call sending Lankford in the Sunday night game
against Cincy - but everyone had a bad time against the Dodger's catcher.

Good question.  At least it doesn't appear that we are seeing the
same Zeile :-)


I am just wondering whether the official MLB stats includes
Intentional Walks in the BB category or not?


I don't think so.  The assumption is there.  If it turns out that
their software has a virus, then it is up to you to prove that fact
to a court to get any damages.  You are theoretically suppossed to
be able to get damages for that, but you have to give some evidence
that the virus came from that software.  But since the computer
company is the defendent, they are uninvolved until proven guilty.

Please, not Pascal!  NOOOOO!! ;)


We are looking for GL source code, which was developed by Silicon Graphics (SGI).
We would like to compile it on Sun and HP 9000/700s. If there is anyone already
supporting GL on HP and Sun, please respond.
Also please respond if anyone knows where the source code is available.

Thank you


Yes, unless the observer is at rest with respect to the singularity at
infinite distance away. But an observer on a close approach to the BH will
see the particle go in in finite time.

Peter


This is factually incorrect. There was at least one message that said that
Waco and Clipper justified "anything" in response.

David


Though I downloaded some of the posted bitmaps myself, the original
poster is quite right...
As an alternative, try posting them at comp.binaries.ms-windows, and
just letting us know.  A good idea is to post the article number here.

peace,
Micke


Well, yes and no.  The _image_ can't be on the screen less than 1/30
of a second, but a _mixture_ of images that's about 90% of the field
that was supposed to be there and 10% of the 'subliminal' addition
could be overlaid for one field, producing the same overall effect to
our sluggish retinae of a discrete image projected for 1/300 second.

..although, like the previous poster, I have to reserve my doubts
about the effectiveness of said discrete image in steering my
subconscious around ..


folks,

i am going to be purchasing a new vehicle in the next few months.  i
am trying to hold out until the fall since i have heard that i can
be in a better negotiating position to purchase a '93 right when the
'94s are coming out.  i need something that can comfortably carry
2 adults, 2 kids in car seats, and 2 60-pound dogs.  i can probably
afford something in the 14k-16k range.  i am interested in the SUV's
but am not sure there are any that are decent which i can afford.
i think the ford explorer got good reviews from consumer reports but
is above my $$$ range.  the isuzu rodeo is probably in my price range
but i think consumer reports gave it a big thumbs down.  can anyone
offer any suggestions?  i am hoping for something a little more hip
than the traditional wagon, and the SUVs look like fun (we do a lot of
camping too).


Alan> 2.  We can also analyze to whom the Lord is addressing: "Marvel
Alan> not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:7).
Alan> Here Jesus is clearly directing his remarks to Nicodemus -- a
Alan> ruler of the Jews (not a child).

Yes, but Jesus also made a very general and doctrinal statement
in the same conversation:

"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."
(John 3:6)

Clearly infants are not born of the spirit.  Thus, without baptism
they are unspiritual.  They are not born with the image of God, but in
Adam's fallen image (cf. Gen 5:3).  They have no righteousness of
their own, just as adults have no righteousness of their own.  There
is only the imputed righteousness of Christ, which believers receive
through faith.

Alan> 3.  We can ask ourselves why the Lord would even introduce the
Alan> concept of spiritual re-birth through baptism if newborn babies
Alan> weren't free from sin?

Your point is a little obscure here, but I think you are saying
that Christ used the "innocence" of newborn babes as a metaphor
for spiritual re-birth.  But this is not what he did.
If you look at the text, he did not speak
of spiritual re-birth but of spiritual birth.  We are
born of the Spirit once, not twice or several times.
We are also born of the flesh once.  The Lord makes it
clear that these are separate and different events.
It is true that other Scriptures refer to spiritual
birth as re-birth because it is a second birth
(for example, Titus 3:5).  But it is not a second
*spiritual* birth.

The only thing the two births have in common is the concept of birth,
which is used as a symbol of `new life' -- not of innocence.  When an
infant is born (or conceived) a new life is begun--but it is neither
innocent nor righteous.  Similarly when that same individual is
baptized, or perhaps when they believe prior to baptism, they begin a
new life in Christ (Romans 6:3, Colossians 2:12, Titus 3:5, Ephesians
2:5).  Then the believer has God's assurance of the forgiveness of
their sins, and of Christ's imputed righteousness.

For references, see
	The Augsburg Confession Article II, Original Sin,
	The Apology to the Augsburg Confession,
		Article II, Original Sin,
	the Formula of Concord, Article I, Original Sin, and
	Luther's Large Catechism, Part 4, Baptism.

For something more recent, see "Baptized into God's Family: The
Doctrine of Infant Baptism" by Andrew Das, available from Northwestern
Publishing House.  Andrew is a graduate of Concordia Lutheran
Seminary, St. Louis, and is now pursuing doctoral studies at Yale
Divinity School.


That is, if the special software is free, like Xfree86.  There are
vendors that sells Diamond X drivers for commercial Unices.  But
then, they charge $$$$.

I think they only need a signing (i.e. no paying).  This still
violates the FSF's policy of publically available code.

While this is true, there are fixes for those who have already
bought Diamond cards.  In Linux, for example, there are utilities
that will put the card in VESA mode before invoking X.  Of course,
this means no fine tuning of Diamond cards, but at least this
will allow those who're stuck with them to use Linux+X.

I agree with Mark's suggestion:  If you are buying a video card
for specialized free software, avoid Diamond.  But if you already
have one, there may be a fix that can help you.

James.

--
jjctc@chevron.com                    |   The shortest distance between
jtsiao@netcom.com                    |   two puns is a straight line.


A local dealer is offering Mac II vi machines equipped with Kodak multi-
session compatible CD-ROM drives for what seems like an attractive price:
$1500. I've used many other models up to a II ci, but this would be the
first I could have my own Mac. Is it safe to buy an about-to-be discontinued
model such as this. I'd like to yank the CD-ROM drive out, put it in a
housing and share it with my PC. Is this feasible? The only info I have on
the II vi is that it is relatively slow (16MHz), has an 68030 chip with a
math coprocessor. I want to add a non-Apple portrait monitor and use this
machine for HyperCard stack design. Is this a good buy, or would I be
wasting my money? I would appreciate some advice. Thanks!

Robert Matthews
GRFG128@TWNMOE10.BITNET.EDU.TW


	Do you have a problem with the language? I said
everyone suffered emotionally because they sympathyzed with the
victims of Holocaust. I wasn't implying that anyone suffered
more than the actual victims. Neither was I implying any
wrongdoing on the part of the Jews as the cause for the
Holocaust. What is wrong with you guys? Regardless of what one
says you keep hearing what you want to hear.


I want to thank all the people that responded to my post
a few weeks ago about buying an '86 Chev Nova with over
100,000 mi.

I decided to buy the car and have had it for about a month.
I replaced the front brake pads and changed the oil.  So far
no problems have surfaced.

I received many suggestions and encouragement on this
purchase and figured a late "thank you" was better than none.

Thanks to all!


Three Bedrooms, One Updated Bath

Professionally Lanscaped Front Yard w/ Sprinklers

Utilities in Attached One Car Garage

Recently Painted Inside

Convenient Commute Location

Schools: Whisman Elementary, Crittenden Jr. High, Mountain View High

$209,900


I currently have some grayscale image files that are not in any
standard format.  They simply contain the 8-bit pixel values.  I would
like to display these images on a PC.  The conversion to a GIF format
would be helpful.  This conversion can take place either on a PC
or on a UNIX system and I could then download it to the PC.
Can anyone suggest where I can find software to do this?  Alternatively, I
may have to write my own conversion program.  In this case, could someone
tell me where I can find the GIF format specification?

Please e-mail me directly at: shayla@shannon.jpl.nasa.gov


Apparently you are unfamiliar with the history of the FBI. You might
try looking up articles from the 70's on the FBI's Cointelpro
operation for starters.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>


	* The news statement was that there was $200,000 worth of "firearms
	  and ammunition (no mention of "assault weapons")" on the premises,
	  not that Koresh had purchased them (what would his crime be if he
	  had?).  This averages to about $2000 per person, not an astronomical
	  number.

	* We don't know that there is a thigh-deep pile of a million rounds...
	  we know that the FBI SAYS there is a pile of a million rounds.


Hi-
Do any of you hardware gurus out there know what kind of memory architecture
Apple uses in the powerbook Duos?  Or in the powerbook in general?

What are the factors that make the Duo 210 so slow compared to a desktop
machine running the same processor at the same speed (25MHz 68030)?  How many
wait states are in the memory system, etc?  What kind of a data bus does it
use?  32-bit or 16-bit?

It's still slow when plugged into a DuoDock.

Anyone know in general what kind of shortcuts notebook manufacturers take when
making notebooks?  I heard of a 486DX2/66 notebook getting a "whopping" 10
MIPS rating.  A similar desktop machine should be getting about 3 times that,
I guess.


FOR SALE:

	1 ST4766E Seagate ESDI drive.  760 meg		$500
	  unformatted.  Without controller.  A
	  friend has tested this on his controller
	  and says that it works.  As is.

	2 meg 256kx4 70ns DRAM.				$ 3 each or $48

Please call (908) 219-5935 or email.


So far, the medical examiner (according to the news) has found NO EVIDENCE
of gunshot wounds in bodies so far examined.  If this continues to be
the case, it will sort of shoot holes (pun intended) in the FBI story,
wouldn't it?  And cartridges going off outside a firearm do not launch
a bullet like they do when fired from a gun.  The bullet hardly moves,
it is the brass casing that goes flying, and then with less than lethal
force.  It will hurt, yes, but not KILL you - I doubt if it wil penetrate
a coat, for example.

How about an INDEPENDENT investigation, with full subpoena powers, and
powers to prosecute on felony charges, to investigate for any possible
illegal/criminal activity on the part of both the BATF and FBI?  I
cannot see any reason why not - to use the phrase they like to use
so often, "if they have nothing to hide..." they should welcome it,
and vigorously support it.  Note that an internal investigation by the
Dept of Justice is NOT an independent investigation...


Hello,

We are looking for a graphics package (preferably complete
with source code) that will run on our UNIX operating system
(a Sequent running DYNIX 3.2).  This graphics package must
support a wide variety of character based graphics devices
(PC's running a terminal emulator, primarily).
At this point, X11 graphics is not an option.

This graphics program should, if possible, support these
sorts of graphics operations (minimum requirements):

   1) Complicated axes (log, linear, etc.) with fairly
      precise axis labels (multi-line labels, etc.)
      Major and minor tickmarks on axes, etc.

   2) It would be nice if some limited amount of color
      plotting were available, if the output device
      supported it.

We have a copy of gnuplot and are currently using it, but
gnuplot has some limitations.  We are looking for something
more robust than gnuplot.

At this point, I'm looking for information about packages that
might solve our problems.  If you have any information, please
contact me at the above email address.  If the product you know
about is a commercial software package, please send a phone number
or email address so that I can contact them about pricing, etc.


  ...

        There's a better way. Doesn't Qualcom have a secure design
        that it decided not to market?  Since they aren't going to
        use it, wouldn't the patriotic thing be to put the design in
        the public domain? How about selling a "Cryptography
        Educational Kit" with the critical parts? Something that could
        end up as a PC option board with two phone jacks?

        Cheers,
                Marc

---
 Marc Thibault                             | marc@tanda.isis.org
 Automation Architect                      | CIS:71441,2226
 R.R.1, Oxford Mills, Ontario, Canada      | NC FreeNet: aa185


"Let's make a deal!"  If you're going to put up a billion, I'd want to budget
the whole sheebang for $450-600 million.  If I have that much money to throw
around in the first place, you betcha I'm going to sign a contract committing
to volume production...


Honda Accord_4_Cyl. LX Hatchback  3D   5 Speed   '82    126,000 Miles

        with :  AM/FM Stereo Cassette

                Clutch          '89
                Alternator      '90
                Battery         '93
                Carburator      '93 Rebuilt

        Registration expires    FEB '94

        Asking price            : $ 2150.00

        Please call 408-366-3570 (Fulvio)


Sun SPARKstation  laptop Workstation for $2500 or best offer.

- 16M RAM expandable to 48M
- 200M hard drive
- 3.5" floppy drive
- OS 4.1.
- Open windows 3
- LCD display
- scsi -2
- mouse
- AC adaptor, manuals, carring case.

  Posted for a friend. Please contact him directly.


  I really think that this is the key point.  When I saw the incident on
Baseball Tonight Sunday, I couldn't believe how far away from the plate
Gant went.  Then he casually leaned against his bat.  I don't blame the
umpire at all for telling the pitcher to pitch.

  The worst part of the whole incident was the Braves coming out onto the
field.  What were they going to do, attack the umpire?  The only people
who should've been out there were Cox and maybe the coaches, but NO players.
I agree with the person who posted before that Cox should be suspended for
having no control over his team.


A friend is heavily into MIDI and is using a Quadra 900 (maybe 950) with
all but one NuBus slot populated with arcane music hardware and a video
card.  He reports 8 bit video is too slow for good real-time display of
what he needs to see.  He also reports that the built-in video is even
worse.  He's not a Mac guru, and I haven't seen the system, so this is
about all I know.

I suspect that his NuBus is heavily loaded, and think improvements might
come from a switch to an accelerated PDS slot video card.  Does this
sound right?  Who makes a PDS accelerated video card for the Quadra thats
worth looking at?  Any other suggestions?  Thanks in advance!


Well, yeah, but unlike TIFF they all do substantially more than encode
rectangular bitmaps.  And the others are hardly trouble free.  I hear that
it is quite common for CGM implementations not to interoperate.

The annoying thing about TIFF is that is that along with the 50 useful
options, there are 100 stupid options.  The most egregious example is that
rather than picking a byte order and bit order and using it consistently
in all TIFF files, byte and bit order are options and all TIFF readers on
all machines, no matter what their natural byte order, have to be prepared
to do byte swapping.  There are four slightly different FAX formats --
again, any one of them would have been adequate.  RGB images can be stored
by pixel or by component, complexity without function, etc, etc.  I also
note that the TIFF doc says that Aldus' experiments show that LZW reliably
compresses as well or better than any of the FAX formats, suggesting that
none of the FAX formats are really useful.

What's worse, a lot of the formats aren't even implemented very well,
e.g., LZW limits code words to 12 bits, while 14 or 16 bits would have
provided substantially better compression.  And the LZW method compresses
bytes rather than pixels.

But the absolute worst thing about TIFF is that any vendor can register
proprietary TIFF codes and formats without even publicly documenting them.
This means that there is NO WAY to write a TIFF reader that can reliably
read all incoming TIFF files.  Some standard.


The Delorean used the Peugot/Renault/Volvo V6 in a rear engine configuration.
The Bricklin use some 'Merkin iron in a front engine/rear drive configuration.


This is my first time on the network, but I am very concerned with this
incident in Waco.  I will refrain from stating my opinions until after I have
read the FAQ.  Could someone tell me how to get this?  I must say that I
believe the Govt. was wrong in the actions that they took in this situation.


I didn't think the bi-stem design was used so much for the retrieval as
for the ability to launch in a tight (size) STS envelope.  This is my own
guess, based on similar designs flown on other large STS-launched s/c
(GRO, UARS).  Also, there _might_ be some consideration given to mass
requirements (bi-stems weight less than conventional S/A).  Finally,
the HST arrays _do_ have the ability to be detached--remember, they're
going to be replaced with new arrays.

However, as an ACS guy who's seen his branch management pull their
collective hair out over HST, I would voice a hearty 'yea' to using
conventional arrays over bi-stems, whenever possible.  No half hertz
flexible modes, no thermal snap, no problem.


I'm trying to make a 24 bit window using XCreateWindow on a 8 bit
PseudoColor server. As far as I know this should be possible if you
server supports a TrueColor or DirectColor visual. I'm using a
Sun IPC with a RasterFLEX card.

Running xdpyinfo gives:
...
screen #0:
  dimensions:    1152x900 pixels (352x275 millimeters)
  resolution:    83x83 dots per inch
  depths (4):    1, 5, 8, 24
  root window id:    0x80083
  depth of root window:    8 planes
  number of colormaps:    minimum 1, maximum 6
  default colormap:    0x80080
...
  number of visuals:    8
  default visual id:  0x80079
...
  visual:
    visual id:    0x80079
    class:    PseudoColor
    depth:    8 planes
    size of colormap:    256 entries
    red, green, blue masks:    0x0, 0x0, 0x0
    significant bits in color specification:    8 bits
  visual:
    visual id:    0x8007a
    class:    TrueColor
    depth:    24 planes
    size of colormap:    256 entries
    red, green, blue masks:    0xff, 0xff00, 0xff0000
    significant bits in color specification:    8 bits
  visual:
    visual id:    0x8007b
    class:    DirectColor
    depth:    24 planes
    size of colormap:    256 entries
    red, green, blue masks:    0xff, 0xff00, 0xff0000
    significant bits in color specification:    8 bits

My code looks like this:

if ((Xio.DspPtr = XOpenDisplay(NULL)) == NULL)
    logexit(1, "Cannot connect to X server %s", XDisplayName(NULL));

Xio.Scr = DefaultScreen(Xio.DspPtr);   /* use this screen                 */

if (XMatchVisualInfo(Xio.DspPtr, Xio.Scr, 24,
		     DirectColor, &Xtern.ColorInfo))
{
   memset(&SetWinAttrib, 0, sizeof(XSetWindowAttributes));
   Xio.GSwin = XCreateWindow(Xio.DspPtr, RootWindow(Xio.DspPtr, Xio.Scr),
			     x, y, w, h, 0, 24, InputOutput,
			     Xtern.ColorInfo, 0, &SetWinAttrib);
}

This results in a BadMatch error. Can anyone please tell me why ?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hello - I am in need of a file viewer for 24 bit TIFF images, to run under
        windows (3.1 if it matters); alternatively a package to run an
        X-server on top of windows would do very well. Unfortunately the
        budget for this is limited so whatever I end up using has to be
        public domain or very inexpensive. Thanks in advance for any help,

        john


Q. Should teenagers have the freedom to choose what church they go to?

My friends teenage kids do not like to go to church.
If left up to them they would sleep, but that's not an option.
They complain that they have no friends that go there, yet don't
attempt to make friends. They mention not respecting their Sunday
school teacher, and usually find a way to miss Sunday school but
do make it to the church service, (after their parents are thoroughly
disgusted) I might add. A never ending battle? It can just ruin your
whole day if you let it.


You need to use your shoulder muscles to push the mower. If you haven't been
doing much exercise, as I suppose you haven't, then a constant 20 minute
long effort can cause stiffness and cramps.


I am DESPERATELY trying to find a PC based e-mail wide area network service
or the necessary network software to establish one myself. While I am aware
there are various BBS's and other similar services avalible (like Compuserve,
Canada Remote Systems etc.) I require fairly specific criteria. In
approximate order of importance they are:

1) The mail/files/news are read/written locally and batched to the network
   server. (ie. no continuous on-line connection)(NOTE: all users are remote
   and will use modems over conventional phone lines.)

2) Simple. The users I have for the system have very little computer knowledge
   have never heard of Unix, and have very little interest in learning. It is
   essential that the client software is completely pain-free.

3) Cheap. We would prefer not paying high connect fees to an established
   commercial network, just so we can send large files between members of the
   group - hence (1). In addition I would like the network server to be
   something small, simple and inexpensive like a 486. (There are only about
   40 people in the group, so it is not a huge network.)

4) The capability for Internet access (for news/mail).

5) Internet style id's (eg. pwood@math.uwaterloo.ca)

   If anyone knows of a system similar to what I am describing, even if it
doesn't sastisfy all my criteria, and I don't care where it is, PLEASE PLEASE
e-mail me and tell me about it. We are not adverse to making alterations to
an existing system if necessary.


Ouch, this is a good question. To me, not existing is worse
than existing no matter what, so I will modify this question to be:
would I be a Christian if it made no eternal difference in my
reward or punishment? I hope this is in the same spirit you want.

I personally am very goal oriented. It is hard for me to do things
that do not achieve some goal. However, to relate this to sports,
only after I learned to not care about the score did I become
a good basketball player. I had to learn to go all out no matter
the situation. Perhaps this lesson is relevent. After all,
only if I can give up my life can I keep it, only if I am
humble can I achieve glory. Only if I concentrate on living
my life now the best I can will I be afforded life eternal.
I think you have illuminated the true meaning of "saved by faith."

But what is my answer? Right now I would remain a Christian.
However, was that always my answer? That's the problem. Heaven
and hell are good motivators at certain stages of maturity.
And I admit there are certain times when perhaps I bite my
tongue and put up with something in the hope of a better day,
i.e. I mentally trade present happiness for future happiness.
I hope the cynics and skeptics do not read more into that
than appropriate, but I am trying to be honest.

I think these kinds of questions are extremely fruitful. I guess it
depends on how one views knowledge and learning. By stripping
ideas to simple, straightforward, opposing concepts we can
determine levels of importance. By analyzing the theoretically
absurd we can gain a better understanding of the actually absurd.


Excerpts from netnews.talk.politics.guns: 21-Apr-93 The Dayton Gun "Buy
Back" (.. by Larry Cipriani@cbnews.cb

Pro-gun people can take used pot-metal guns with sale values LESS THAN
$50.00 and turn them in, thus making a profit at the gun-grabbers
expense.

-Seth

__________________________________________________________________________
[unlike cats] dogs NEVER scratch you when you wash them. They just
become very sad and try to figure out what they did wrong. -Dave Barry


Has anyone else gotten a system error when trying to print from Mathematica 2.1
to the HP Deskwriter. I'm using a PB170 with:	8 megs ram
						Sys 7.0.1 + Tuneup
						HP Print Drivers etc....

It works find on an Imagewriter I. I'd like to get as much information as
possible before I send a bug report to Wolfram.

Thanks.


   This does not propose a _mechanism_ for GRBs in the Oort (and, no,
   anti-matter annihilation does not fit the spectra at least as far
   as I understand annihilation spectra...). Big difference.
   That's ignoring the question of how you fit a distribution
   to the Oort distribution when the Oort distribution is not well
   known - in particular comet aphelia (which are not well known)
   are not a good measure of the Oort cloud distribution...

Merging neutron stars is at least a mechanism with about the right
energy, except it doesn't explain why there is no apparent correlation
with galaxies or galaxy structure, there is no mechanism for getting
all the energy out in gamma rays (with any significant amount of
baryons around there will be a lot of pair production, which makes a
plasma, which thermalizes the energy), it has trouble generating
enough energy to explain the most powerful bursts (10^52-53 ergs), it
happens too fast compared to the burst duration, and it is hard to
make tight-binaries of neutron stars.

Another cosmological mechinism is the catalytic conversion of a
neutron star to a strange star or the merger of two strange stars, but
that uses pretty far-out physics.

My point is that we don't have a good mechanism at any distance, so
GRB's are likely to be happening by an unknown mechanism, so we can't
rule out the Oort cloud.  What would be the spectrum of an event which
converts a comet to strange matter?  The spectra for primordial black
holes eating comets and antimatter comets colliding with matter comets
aren't quite right, but perhaps there is an unusual mechanism which
modifies the spectrum.  The energy matches very well for both of these
mechanisms.  According to Trevor Weeks, if the "Tunguska Meteorite"
was a mini-black hole collision with the earth, then there are likely
to be enough mini-black holes around that the rate for BH-comet
collisions matches the GRB rate well.

The fact that we don't know the distribution of comets in the Oort
cloud isn't a reason to rule them out; it makes it harder to rule them
out.  The point of the cited paper was that if we assume they got the
right distribution for the Oort cloud, it is hard but not impossible
to match that up with the distribution of GRB's.  If they got the
wrong distribution for the Oort cloud, they can't constrain any Oort-
cloud GRB's at all.


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

Harry talks about this "incident" in his autobiography "Holy Cow."
Unfortunately, I can not clarify on this since (1) I read the book a couple
of years ago and (2) I do not have my book with me.

Anyway, It is a pretty interesting book if you are a Harry or Cubs fan.


[ in response to a question about why Jesus' parents would be sanctified
beyond normal humanity]

I would think that simply being pregnant with the incarnation of the
Almighty God would be enough to make Mary blessed among all women, whether
or not she had special spiritual attributes.  I find that the more special
Mary needs to be, the less human Jesus gets.


From article <May.14.02.11.36.1993.25219@athos.rutgers.edu>, by tas@pegasus.com (Len Howard):


No.  I see many of the same groups protesting both.  I also know people
who feel exactly the opposite (i.e., treat citizens better than Saddam).

Hey!  Sect changes are still illegal in Texas!
--


Bill, ever heard of secular humanism? Please check out what
this stands for, and then revise your statements above.

Cheers,
Kent


I read somewhere that Kurt Goedel argued that the ontological argument
for God's existence was logically reasonable (or something to that
effect).

Does anyone know if this is true, and have a citation?

Thanks.


day.

Recently, I completed a 2 week juice fast (with 3 days of water) and had
two colonics as part of it.  My motivation was primarily spiritual, to
de-toxify from all the crap I've been putting in my body (not like thats
enough to clean it all out but it did have an effect).  Personaly, I
didn't find it an uncomfortable experience (the colonic), lost about
15lbs of beer belly (which hasn't come back over the last month), and
feel great.  One of the things that prompted me to get the colonic was
seeing my 90 year old grandmother chair ridden from colitis (?) from
years of indulgence.

Not everything that goes in comes out, and personaly I don't mind giving
my body a hand once in a while.

Just my experience,

George Paap


	If you have something reasoned and intelligent to say then you should
post. If all you can do is rant and rave- save it.

	True conservatism is cutting spending and taxes. It's a matter of
debate just how succesful the last few presidents have been at that.

	I hear it again and again, and I've noticed far more often from
liberals than anyone else- "if you don't agree with me you are close-minded"
	Look who's talking. I suggest you take a look at your post. I see
nothing but unfair and unsubstantiated generalizations. It suggests that the
author is anything but open-minded.
	Next time you feel like posting something like this- save it for
somebody who cares.


A >  From some of the replies to my original posting, it's evident that some
A >  people do not secrete enough mucous to keep their nose lining protected
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 Include small amounts of hot, spicy foods with your meals. It's
 not a cure, but many people find it helpful to create extra mucus.
 You may also consider taking a few drops of iodine in juice or water
 (consult your doctor first!), which is available OTC in Canada.
 If you have a sedentary lifestyle, exercising sometimes helps.

A >  from environmental influences (ie, dry air). But I've had no responses
A >  from anyone with experience with Rutin. Is there another newsgroup that
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A >  might have specifics on herbal remedies?
A >
A >  Robert Allison

 I tried to e-mail you, but our board is having internet problems,
 so I'm not sure whether you got the information on rutin or not.

 Rutin is NOT a herb, but part of the bioflavonoid complex. You should
 generally *not* take rutin by itself, but take the whole bioflavonoid
 complex instead. If you don't (and there are some exceptions to that)
 you'll eventually create a hesperidin deficiency, which is the other
 major component of the bioflavonoid complex.
 I found out the hard way years ago when I recommended rutin, after it
 showed deficient in patients who were NOT deficient in hesperidin be-
 fore. A later retest almost always showed a subsequent deficiency in
 hesperidin, which, from then on, made me always *add* bioflavonoids
 to anyone that had *very* low levels of rutin.
 Most of the time people are equally low in rutin *and* hesperidin, so
 there is really no reason to take rutin by itself, but use the whole
 bioflavonoid complex instead.

 I have several thousand patients taking them with many claiming that
 they had been helped with hemorrhoids, varicose veins, chronic nose
 bleeds, aneurysms, gastro-intestinal bleeding (due to drugs), etc...
 One patient in desperation took a whole bottle (100's) in one day
 for his painful, bleeding hemorrhoids, without any ill effects.

 They are also non-toxic in very high amounts, that's why they can
 be safely recommended. If you are allergic to citrus fruit (they are
 made from their peels), pine bark sources are available as well.

 About 90% of patients tested show a bioflavonoid deficiency,
 with the average daily dosage needed being about 1 - 2,000mg.
 For major complaints, 4 - 6,000mg+/day is common.

 In case they cannot be taken, because of their size and taste (they
 are big, and they don't taste that great), a product made from pine
 bark extract gives you the same effect and the tablets are quite
 small and taste much better, however the cost is about seven times
 higher for the equivalent effect. One 25mg tablet of the pine bark
 extract gives you about the same effect as 1,000mg of bioflavonoids.
 The name for the pine bark product is 'Pycnogenol.'

   Some Canadian brands carrying bioflavonoids are:

   Quest.............1,000mg   big, bitter, not chewable
   Swiss Herbal........600mg   smooth, easier swallowing
   Jamieson............500mg   medium, bitter, chewable

   SISU.................25mg   (Pycnogenol) small, easy swallowing

   Give them a try and see what happens.....and good luck!

   -- Ron Roth --
 =====================================================================
 --  Internet: rn.3228@rose.com  -  Rosenet: ron roth@rosehamilton  --

 *   "Eating Radium has strange results,"  Tom said brightly.


And here's my two cents:

The best convertible for the money, IMO, is the Miata. Yes, it's small, but
you're buying it as a second car, I hope, so you don't need the cargo room
of a big car. It's got enough power for fun, it's RWD like a sports car
ought to be (I'm gonna regret that :-{) and the top, while manual, operates
like a dream. 30 seconds and one hand to lower, and not much longer to raise.

The targa-type cars are nice, but they're not real convertibles.

--


"Numerical Recipes in C"..Fortran..Pascal  has a nice section on
encryption and decryption based on the DES algorithm.  There is
also source code provided (I think some versions of this book are
distributed with the source code on disk; the source code can
also be ordered from the publisher).


 >By the way, news.announce.newusers has an article (can't remember which
 >one) that recommends reading a newsgroup for 1 month before posting.
 >This makes sense because you get an idea who the players are and what
 >the current discussions are about.

 >Am I the only one who followed that advice?

No, I spent a month just reading, too, mainly because I did not know
much about the way atheists think. I even printed out the FAQs and
discussed it with a friend before I started posting.

Alt.atheism deals with religious issues (more appropriately, lack of
religious beliefs), which are by their very nature very controversial.
It makes sense to read what is being discussed and how just to make
sure you are not repeating something others have said better.

Petri


Can anyone recommend a 3 button mouse that is compatible with MacX and Quadra?
If so, can the buttons be programed to say, cut, paste etc?

Can anyone suggest a supplier?

The only 3 button mice I know exist are:

	1. Logitek	$106.00 Aust (Injan ).
	2. Anorus	$100.00 Aust (Mac direct).
Are these ok for the above configuration?

Please reply me directly.

regards
Christopher Welsh

--
Deakin University          			Chris Welsh
Department of Computing and Maths		cris@aragorn.cm.deakin.oz.au


Here's another question by a hesitant Powerbook purchaser.
I want to be able to run Mathematica and would like to hear some comments
from the gallery about this. How much slower does the program run on a
machine without an FPU (namely a PB160) versus a machine with an FPU
(namely a PB170).  What types of calculations get bogged down the most. I
primarily due moderately simple algebra, integrals which can be dealt with
analytically and plotting including 3-d plots. I don't do a lot of
numerical work. Would a PB160 with a lot of memory ( and the very nice
video port ) be sufficient or should I really try to get an FPU for this
type of work? Is a PB170 with 8Mb faster than a PB160 with 12 or 16Mb.
All comments appreciated.


:
:   .
:            It's my understanding that the U.S. Supreme Court has never
:        given a legal definition of religion.  This despite the many
:        cases involving religion that have come before the Court.
:            Can anyone verify or falsify this?
:            Has any state or other government tried to give a legal
:        definition of religion?

According to the legal practices of today's America, I imagine the legal
definition of religion, if defined, may resemble the following:

	"Any system of belief or practice to which people are committed
	for the benefit of society which must, in the opinion of secular
	thought, be isolated from political and educational influence."

	"Should any system of belief or practice to which people are
	committed be harmful or void of any benefit to society in the
	opinion of religious thought as defined in the previous paragraph,
	isolation of such from political and educational influence would
	constitute unreasonable censorship and an unlawful violation of
	civil rights."


    Only if you are in the eastern time zone - pacific will get the
    Kings vs Calgary


I am looking for GUI Builders/UIMS's which run in a VMS/OpenVMS
environment. I am interested in both Motif tools and GUI-independent
tools such as XVT. My client also requires that the tool has been
in production for at least 6 months in the VMS environment. Note
that I have the list of tools from the FAQ, but not the info on
VMS availability.

Thanks


Hi!

My co-worker has just attached a magneto-optical drive to his mac.
Works Great for him.  However, he tried to turn on file sharing, but it
wouldn't work.  Had some message about "Not all volumes are shareable"
???

So - has anyone had success in sharing MOs?  If so, please tell me how!


Another idea: Use a laptop computer.  As mentioned earlier, the LCD screen
is a lot less noisy than a standard CRT, but since many laptops have power
supplies that run at 3 volts instead of 5, they would be considerably
quieter.

Doug Holland


-> Without the key, though, the steering column 'lock' would have to be
-> sacrificed.

Not necessarily. Maybe some  sort of servo lock or something along those
lines could be used to acheive the same effect. Maybe a solenoid type of
thing too.

George Howell


Does anyone have a pair of Sega 3-d glasses they're willing
to part with?  Or know of anywhere to acquire a pair, as they don't have
them around here!!!

                        Thanks.

  _________________________________________________
  Inspiration  |   ___                             |
  comes to     |  \   o  baden@sys6626.bison.mb.ca |
  those who    | (  ^  ) baden@inqmind.bison.mb.ca |
  seek the     |   /-\      =] Baden de Bari [=    |
  unknown.     |                                   |


Or the price tag of the RX7 vs. a Mustang? Part of the definition of
a Mustang is that it should be affordable by the masses. Of course
Ford knows youre argument, THEY OWN A BIG PIECE OF MAZDA! Take a good
look at a Mach III, now an RX7, hhhmmmmm...

That is a tragedy, but I don't think new Camaros or the new Mustangs will.

-Steve


We are researching what support there is on various platforms for applications
to use multi-byte characters (e.g., Japanese Kanji).  We know that Unix
and X Windows can contain support for the i18N standard (depending on level
and platform).  What support for i18N or wide characters exists on the Mac,
Windows 3.1 and Windows NT?


Anyone who thinks being gay and Christianity are not compatible should
check out Dignity, Integrity, More Light Presbyterian churches, Affirmation,
MCC churches, etc.  Meet some gay Christians, find out who they are, pray
with them, discuss scripture with them, and only *then* form your opinion.
--


The initiations ceremony for Knights ous is almost
as secretive as that for the Mafia.

What are the phases of initation and why the secretiveness?