From mark.vanderloo at gmail.com  Fri Sep  1 11:17:08 2017
From: mark.vanderloo at gmail.com (Mark van der Loo)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2017 09:17:08 +0000
Subject: [Rd] Natural vs National in R signon banner?
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Message-ID: <CAOKDuOiiShpCWB_DRqB_fpUnwAhGo4x6Yd63V=+vUy85XhN_CQ@mail.gmail.com>

The way it's phrased now makes it seem that English is not a Natural
language ("Natural language support *but* running in an English locale").
Why not just state: "running in an English locale" and leave it with that?
Better to leave something out than to be unclear (being correct formally
does not always mean being clear to all users).
-M

Op vr 1 sep. 2017 om 11:00 schreef Peter Dalgaard <pdalgd at gmail.com>:

> Just leave it, I think. Some nations have 4 national languages (as Martin
> will know), some languages are not national, and adopted children often do
> not speak their native (=born) language... I suspect someone already put a
> substantial amount of thought into the terminology.
>
> -pd
>
>
> > On 1 Sep 2017, at 09:45 , Martin Maechler <maechler at stat.math.ethz.ch>
> wrote:
> >
> >>>>>> Paul McQuesten <mcquesten at gmail.com>
> >>>>>>    on Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:48:12 -0500 writes:
> >
> >> Actually, I do agree with you about Microsoft.
> >> But they have so many users that their terminology should not be
> ignored.
> >
> >> Here are a few more views:
> >
> >>
> https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_71/com.ibm.aix.performance/natl_lang_supp_locale_speed.htm
> >> https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E26033/glmbx.html
> >>
> http://support.sas.com/documentation/cdl/en/nlsref/69741/HTML/default/viewer.htm#n1n9bwctsthuqbn1xgipyw5xwujl.htm
> >>
> https://docs.intersystems.com/latest/csp/docbook/DocBook.UI.Page.cls?KEY=GSA_config_nls
> >>
> https://sites.ualberta.ca/dept/chemeng/AIX-43/share/man/info/C/a_doc_lib/aixprggd/genprogc/nls.htm
> >>
> http://scc.ustc.edu.cn/zlsc/tc4600/intel/2017.0.098/compiler_f/common/core/GUID-1AEC889E-98A7-4A7D-91B3-865C476F603D.html
> >
> >> It does appear, however, that what I call 'National Language' is often
> >> referred to as 'Native Language'. And the 'National Language'
> terminology
> >> is said to not be used consistently:
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_language
> >
> >> I do still feel, however, that claiming 'Natural Language' support in R
> >> sets expectations of new users overly high.
> >
> >> Thank you for spending so much time on such a minor nit.
> >
> > continuing the nits and gnats :
> >
> > I think I now understand what you mean.  From the little I
> > understand about English intricacies and with my not
> > fully developed gut feeling of good English (which I rarely
> > speak but sometimes appreciate when reading / listening),
> > I would indeed
> >
> > prefer  'Native Language'
> > to    'Natural Language'
> >
> > Martin Maechler
> > ETH Zurich
> >
> >> Regards
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Duncan Murdoch <
> murdoch.duncan at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >
> >>> On 31/08/2017 6:37 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks, Duncan. But if it is not inappropriate, I feel empowered to
> argue.
> >>>>
> >>>> According to this definition, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> >>>> Natural_language:
> >>>> In neuropsychology, linguistics and the philosophy of language, a
> >>>> natural language or ordinary language is any language that has evolved
> >>>> naturally in humans ...
> >>>>
> >>>> Thus this banner statement may appear over-claiming to a significant
> >>>> fraction of R users.
> >>>>
> >>>> It seems that LOCALE is called 'National language' support in other
> >>>> software systems.
> >>>> Eg: https://www.microsoft.com/resources/msdn/goglobal/default.mspx
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> I wouldn't take Microsoft as an authority on this (or much of
> anything).
> >>> They really are amazingly incompetent, considering how much money they
> earn.
> >>>
> >>> Duncan Murdoch
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> And, yes, this is a low priority issue. All of you have better things
> to
> >>>> do.
> >>>>
> >>>> R is an extremely powerful and comprehensive software system.
> >>>> Thank you all for that.
> >>>> And I would like to clean one gnat from the windshield.
> >>>>
> >>>> I just wax pedantic at times.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:13 PM, Duncan Murdoch <
> murdoch.duncan at gmail.com
> >>>> <mailto:murdoch.duncan at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 31/08/2017 5:38 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> The R signon banner includes this statement:
> >>>> Natural language support but running in an English locale
> >>>>
> >>>> Should that not say 'National' instead of 'Natural'?
> >>>> Meaning that LOCALE support is enabled, not that the interface
> >>>> understands
> >>>> human language?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> No, "natural language" refers to human languages, but it doesn't
> >>>> imply that R understands them.  NLS just means that messages may be
> >>>> presented in (or translated to) other human languages in an
> >>>> appropriate context.
> >>>>
> >>>> For example, you can start R on most platforms from the console using
> >>>>
> >>>> LANGUAGE=de R
> >>>>
> >>>> and instead of the start message you saw, you'll see
> >>>>
> >>>> R ist freie Software und kommt OHNE JEGLICHE GARANTIE.
> >>>> Sie sind eingeladen, es unter bestimmten Bedingungen weiter zu
> >>>> verbreiten.
> >>>> Tippen Sie 'license()' or 'licence()' f?r Details dazu.
> >>>>
> >>>> and so on.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please ignore this and forgive me if this is an inappropriate
> >>>> post. I am a
> >>>> N00B in R.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't think it is inappropriate.
> >>>>
> >>>> Duncan Murdoch
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > R-devel at r-project.org mailing list
> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel
>
> --
> Peter Dalgaard, Professor,
> Center for Statistics, Copenhagen Business School
> Solbjerg Plads 3, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark
> Phone: (+45)38153501 <+45%2038%2015%2035%2001>
> Office: A 4.23
> Email: pd.mes at cbs.dk  Priv: PDalgd at gmail.com
>
> ______________________________________________
> R-devel at r-project.org mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel

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[Rd] Natural vs National in R signon banner?
Mark van der Loo