From murdoch at stats.uwo.ca  Sun Dec 16 15:41:27 2007
From: murdoch at stats.uwo.ca (Duncan Murdoch)
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 09:41:27 -0500
Subject: [Rd] Wrong length of POSIXt vectors (PR#10507)
In-Reply-To: <18276.21133.818619.889393@ada-stat.math.ethz.ch>
References: <20071211112025.811162834156@mail.pubhealth.ku.dk>	<475FF376.8080806@stats.uwo.ca>	<47618124.7060504@acm.org>	<47618A54.3060900@stats.uwo.ca>	<4762EE76.9070401@acm.org>
	<18276.21133.818619.889393@ada-stat.math.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <47653917.9090905@stats.uwo.ca>

On 15/12/2007 5:17 PM, Martin Maechler wrote:
>>>>>> "TP" == Tony Plate <tplate at acm.org>
>>>>>>     on Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:58:30 -0700 writes:
> 
>     TP> Duncan Murdoch wrote:
>     >> On 12/13/2007 1:59 PM, Tony Plate wrote:
>     >>> Duncan Murdoch wrote:
>     >>>> On 12/11/2007 6:20 AM, simecek at gmail.com wrote:
>     >>>>> Full_Name: Petr Simecek
>     >>>>> Version: 2.5.1, 2.6.1
>     >>>>> OS: Windows XP
>     >>>>> Submission from: (NULL) (195.113.231.2)
>     >>>>> 
>     >>>>> 
>     >>>>> Several times I have experienced that a length of a POSIXt vector 
>     >>>>> has not been
>     >>>>> computed right.
>     >>>>> 
>     >>>>> Example:
>     >>>>> 
>     >>>>> tv<-structure(list(sec = c(50, 0, 55, 12, 2, 0, 37, NA, 17, 3, 31
>     >>>>> ), min = c(1L, 10L, 11L, 15L, 16L, 18L, 18L, NA, 20L, 22L, 22L
>     >>>>> ), hour = c(12L, 12L, 12L, 12L, 12L, 12L, 12L, NA, 12L, 12L, 12L), 
>     >>>>> mday = c(13L, 13L, 13L, 13L, 13L, 13L, 13L, NA, 13L, 13L, 13L), mon 
>     >>>>> = c(5L, 5L, 5L, 5L, 5L, 5L, 5L, NA, 5L, 5L, 5L), year = c(105L, 
>     >>>>> 105L, 105L, 105L, 105L, 105L, 105L, NA, 105L, 105L, 105L), wday = 
>     >>>>> c(1L, 1L, 1L, 1L, 1L, 1L, 1L, NA, 1L, 1L, 1L), yday = c(163L, 163L, 
>     >>>>> 163L, 163L, 163L, 163L, 163L, NA, 163L, 163L, 163L), isdst = c(1L, 
>     >>>>> 1L, 1L, 1L, 1L, 1L, 1L, -1L, 1L, 1L, 1L)), .Names = c("sec", "min", 
>     >>>>> "hour", "mday", "mon", "year", "wday", "yday", "isdst"
>     >>>>> ), class = c("POSIXt", "POSIXlt"))
>     >>>>> 
>     >>>>> print(tv)
>     >>>>> # print 11 time points (right)
>     >>>>> 
>     >>>>> length(tv)
>     >>>>> # returns 9 (wrong)
>     >>>> 
>     >>>> tv is a list of length 9.  The answer is right, your expectation is 
>     >>>> wrong.
>     >>>>> I have tried that on several computers with/without switching to 
>     >>>>> English
>     >>>>> locales, i.e. Sys.setlocale("LC_TIME", "en"). I have searched a 
>     >>>>> help pages but I
>     >>>>> cannot imagine how that could be OK.
>     >>>> 
>     >>>> See this in ?POSIXt:
>     >>>> 
>     >>>> Class '"POSIXlt"' is a named list of vectors...
>     >>>> 
>     >>>> You could define your own length measurement as
>     >>>> 
>     >>>> length.POSIXlt <- function(x) length(x$sec)
>     >>>> 
>     >>>> and you'll get the answer you expect, but be aware that length.XXX 
>     >>>> methods are quite rare, and you may surprise some of your users.
>     >>>> 
>     >>> 
>     >>> On the other hand, isn't the fact that length() currently always 
>     >>> returns 9 for POSIXlt objects likely to be a surprise to many users 
>     >>> of POSIXlt?
>     >>> 
>     >>> The back of "The New S Language" says "Easy-to-use facilities allow 
>     >>> you to organize, store and retrieve all sorts of data. ... S 
>     >>> functions and data organization make applications easy to write."
>     >>> 
>     >>> Now, POSIXlt has methods for c() and vector subsetting "[" (and many 
>     >>> other vector-manipulation methods - see methods(class="POSIXlt")).  
>     >>> Hence, from the point of view of intending to supply "easy-to-use 
>     >>> facilities ... [for] all sorts of data", isn't it a little 
>     >>> incongruous that length() is not also provided -- as 3 functions (any 
>     >>> others?) comprise a core set of vector-manipulation functions?
>     >>> 
>     >>> Would it make sense to have an informal prescription (e.g., in 
>     >>> R-exts) that a class that implements a vector-like object and 
>     >>> provides at least of one of functions 'c', '[' and 'length' should 
>     >>> provide all three?  It would also be easy to describe a test-suite 
>     >>> that should be included in the 'test' directory of a package 
>     >>> implementing such a class, that had some tests of the basic 
>     >>> vector-manipulation functionality, such as:
>     >>> 
>     >>> > # at this point, x0, x1, x3, & x10 should exist, as vectors of the
>     >>> > # class being tested, of length 0, 1, 3, and 10, and they should
>     >>> > # contain no duplicate elements
>     >>> > length(x0)
>     >>> [1] 1
>     >>> > length(c(x0, x1))
>     >>> [1] 2
>     >>> > length(c(x1,x10))
>     >>> [1] 11
>     >>> > all(x3 == x3[seq(len=length(x3))])
>     >>> [1] TRUE
>     >>> > all(x3 == c(x3[1], x3[2], x3[3]))
>     >>> [1] TRUE
>     >>> > length(c(x3[2], x10[5:7]))
>     >>> [1] 4
>     >>> >
>     >>> 
>     >>> It would also be possible to describe a larger set of vector 
>     >>> manipulation functions that should be implemented together, including 
>     >>> e.g., 'rep', 'unique', 'duplicated', '==', 'sort', '[<-', 'is.na', 
>     >>> head, tail ... (many of which are provided for POSIXlt).
>     >>> 
>     >>> Or is there some good reason that length() cannot be provided (while 
>     >>> 'c' and '[' can) for some vector-like classes such as "POSIXlt"?
>     >> 
>     >> What you say sounds good in general, but the devil is in the details. 
>     >> Changing the meaning of length(x) for some objects has fairly 
>     >> widespread effects.  Are they all positive?  I don't know.
>     >> 
>     >> Adding a prescription like the one you suggest would be good if it's 
>     >> easy to implement, but bad if it's already widely violated.  How many 
>     >> base or CRAN or Bioconductor packages violate it currently?   Do the 
>     >> ones that provide all 3 methods do so in a consistent way, i.e. does 
>     >> "length(x)" mean the same thing in all of them?
>     TP> I'm not sure doing something like this would be so bad even if it is 
>     TP> already widely violated.  R has evolved significantly over time, and 
>     TP> many rough edges have been cleaned up, sometimes in ways that were not 
>     TP> backward compatible.  This is a great thing & my thanks go to the people 
>     TP> working on R.
> 
>     TP> If some base or CRAN or Bioconductor packages currently don't implement 
>     TP> vector operations consistently, wouldn't it be good to know that?  
>     TP> Wouldn't it be useful to have an automatic way of determining whether a 
>     TP> particular vector-like class is consistent with generally agreed set of 
>     TP> principles for how basic vector operations should work -- things like 
>     TP> length(x)+length(y)==length(c(x,y))?  This could help developers check, 
>     TP> document & improve their code, and it could help users understand how to 
>     TP> use a class, and to evaluate the software quality of a class 
>     TP> implementation and whether or not it provides the functionality they need.
>     >> I agree that the current state is less than perfect, but making it 
>     >> better would really be a lot of work.  I suspect there are better ways 
>     >> to spend my time, so I'm not going to volunteer to do it.  I'm not 
>     >> even going to invite someone else to do it, or offer to review your 
>     >> work if you volunteer.  I think this falls into the class of "next 
>     >> time we write a language, let's handle this better" problems.
> 
>     TP> Thanks very much for the thoughtful (and honest) feedback!  I suspect 
>     TP> that the current state could be improved with just a little work, and 
>     TP> without forcing anyone to do any work they don't want to do.  I'll think 
>     TP> about this more and try to come back with a better & more concrete 
>     TP> suggestion.
> 
> Good. From "the outside" (i.e. superficial gut feeling :-)
> I've sympathized with your suggestion, Tony, quite a bit.
> Further, my own taste would probably also have lead me to define
> length.POSIXlt differently ..
> OTOH, I agree with Duncan that it may be too late to change it
> and even more to enforce the consistency rules you propose.
> If with a small bit of code (and some patience) we could check
> all of CRAN and hopefully bioconductor packages and find only a
> very few where it was violated, the whole endeavor may be worth it
> ... for the sake of making  R more consistent, easier to teach, etc..
> 
> Unfortunately I don't remember now what happened many months ago
> when I indeed did experiment with having something like
> 
>   length.POSIXlt <- function(x) length(x$sec)
> 
> Martin Maechler

One reason I don't want to work on this is because the appropriate 
action depends on what "length(x)" is intended to mean.  Currently for 
POSIXlt objects, it gives the physical length of the underlying basic 
type (the list).  This is the same behaviour as we have for matrices, 
data frames and every other object without a specific length method, so 
it's not outrageous.

The proposed change is to have it return the logical length of the 
object, which also seems quite reasonable.  I don't think matrices and 
data frames have a "logical length", so there would be no contradiction 
in those examples.  The thing that worries me is that there are probably 
objects in packages where both logical length and physical length make 
sense but are different.  I don't have any expectation that length(x) on 
those currently is consistent in which type of value it returns.

If we were to decide that "length(x)" *always* meant logical length, 
then we would have a problem:  matrices and data frames don't have a 
logical length, so we shouldn't be getting an answer there.  Changing 
length(x) for those is not acceptable.

On the other hand, if we decide that "length(x)" *always* means physical 
length, we don't need to do anything to the POSIXlt or matrices or data 
frames, but there may well be other kinds of objects out there that 
violate this rule.

We could leave the meaning of length(x) ambiguous.  If you want to know 
what it does for a POSIXlt object, you need to read the documentation or 
look at the source code.  As a policy, this isn't particularly 
appealing, but I could probably live with it if someone else did the 
research and showed that current usage is ambiguous.

Duncan Murdoch



[Rd] Wrong length of POSIXt vectors (PR#10507)
Duncan Murdoch