From maechler at stat.math.ethz.ch  Fri Sep  1 09:45:38 2017
From: maechler at stat.math.ethz.ch (Martin Maechler)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 09:45:38 +0200
Subject: [Rd] Natural vs National in R signon banner?
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Message-ID: <22953.4130.656513.835219@stat.math.ethz.ch>

>>>>> Paul McQuesten <mcquesten at gmail.com>
>>>>>     on Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:48:12 -0500 writes:

    > Actually, I do agree with you about Microsoft.
    > But they have so many users that their terminology should not be ignored.

    > Here are a few more views:

    > https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_71/com.ibm.aix.performance/natl_lang_supp_locale_speed.htm
    > https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E26033/glmbx.html
    > http://support.sas.com/documentation/cdl/en/nlsref/69741/HTML/default/viewer.htm#n1n9bwctsthuqbn1xgipyw5xwujl.htm
    > https://docs.intersystems.com/latest/csp/docbook/DocBook.UI.Page.cls?KEY=GSA_config_nls
    > https://sites.ualberta.ca/dept/chemeng/AIX-43/share/man/info/C/a_doc_lib/aixprggd/genprogc/nls.htm
    > http://scc.ustc.edu.cn/zlsc/tc4600/intel/2017.0.098/compiler_f/common/core/GUID-1AEC889E-98A7-4A7D-91B3-865C476F603D.html

    > It does appear, however, that what I call 'National Language' is often
    > referred to as 'Native Language'. And the 'National Language' terminology
    > is said to not be used consistently:
    > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_language

    > I do still feel, however, that claiming 'Natural Language' support in R
    > sets expectations of new users overly high.

    > Thank you for spending so much time on such a minor nit.

continuing the nits and gnats :

I think I now understand what you mean.  From the little I
understand about English intricacies and with my not
fully developed gut feeling of good English (which I rarely
speak but sometimes appreciate when reading / listening),
I would indeed

prefer  'Native Language'
to	'Natural Language'	

Martin Maechler
ETH Zurich

    > Regards



    > On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com>
    > wrote:

    >> On 31/08/2017 6:37 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote:
    >> 
    >>> Thanks, Duncan. But if it is not inappropriate, I feel empowered to argue.
    >>> 
    >>> According to this definition, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    >>> Natural_language:
    >>> In neuropsychology, linguistics and the philosophy of language, a
    >>> natural language or ordinary language is any language that has evolved
    >>> naturally in humans ...
    >>> 
    >>> Thus this banner statement may appear over-claiming to a significant
    >>> fraction of R users.
    >>> 
    >>> It seems that LOCALE is called 'National language' support in other
    >>> software systems.
    >>> Eg: https://www.microsoft.com/resources/msdn/goglobal/default.mspx
    >>> 
    >> 
    >> I wouldn't take Microsoft as an authority on this (or much of anything).
    >> They really are amazingly incompetent, considering how much money they earn.
    >> 
    >> Duncan Murdoch
    >> 
    >> 
    >>> And, yes, this is a low priority issue. All of you have better things to
    >>> do.
    >>> 
    >>> R is an extremely powerful and comprehensive software system.
    >>> Thank you all for that.
    >>> And I would like to clean one gnat from the windshield.
    >>> 
    >>> I just wax pedantic at times.
    >>> 
    >>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:13 PM, Duncan Murdoch <murdoch.duncan at gmail.com
    >>> <mailto:murdoch.duncan at gmail.com>> wrote:
    >>> 
    >>> On 31/08/2017 5:38 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote:
    >>> 
    >>> The R signon banner includes this statement:
    >>> Natural language support but running in an English locale
    >>> 
    >>> Should that not say 'National' instead of 'Natural'?
    >>> Meaning that LOCALE support is enabled, not that the interface
    >>> understands
    >>> human language?
    >>> 
    >>> 
    >>> No, "natural language" refers to human languages, but it doesn't
    >>> imply that R understands them.  NLS just means that messages may be
    >>> presented in (or translated to) other human languages in an
    >>> appropriate context.
    >>> 
    >>> For example, you can start R on most platforms from the console using
    >>> 
    >>> LANGUAGE=de R
    >>> 
    >>> and instead of the start message you saw, you'll see
    >>> 
    >>> R ist freie Software und kommt OHNE JEGLICHE GARANTIE.
    >>> Sie sind eingeladen, es unter bestimmten Bedingungen weiter zu
    >>> verbreiten.
    >>> Tippen Sie 'license()' or 'licence()' f?r Details dazu.
    >>> 
    >>> and so on.
    >>> 
    >>> Please ignore this and forgive me if this is an inappropriate
    >>> post. I am a
    >>> N00B in R.
    >>> 
    >>> 
    >>> I don't think it is inappropriate.
    >>> 
    >>> Duncan Murdoch



[Rd] Natural vs National in R signon banner?
Martin Maechler