From simon.urbanek at r-project.org  Mon Aug 10 15:55:08 2009
From: simon.urbanek at r-project.org (Simon Urbanek)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 09:55:08 -0400
Subject: [Rd] identical(0, -0)
In-Reply-To: <4A7FECCD.2010208@stats.uwo.ca>
References: <mailman.23.1249725606.24224.r-devel@r-project.org>	<4A7D8E08.2070300@uottawa.ca>
	<20090810092141.GC10119@cs.cas.cz> <4A7FECCD.2010208@stats.uwo.ca>
Message-ID: <353CA09D-6769-4F58-AC2C-B7AD2CF5DE0C@r-project.org>


On Aug 10, 2009, at 5:47 , Duncan Murdoch wrote:

> Petr Savicky wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 10:39:04AM -0400, Prof. John C Nash wrote:
>>
>>> I'll save space and not include previous messages.
>>>
>>> My 2 cents: At the very least the documentation needs a fix. If it  
>>> is easy to do, then Ted Harding's suggestion of a switch (default  
>>> OFF) to check for sign difference would be sensible.
>>>
>>> I would urge inclusion in the documentation of the +0, -0  
>>> example(s) if there is NOT a way in R to distinguish these.
>>>
>>
>> It is possible to distinguish 0 and -0 in R, since 1/0 == Inf and
>> 1/(-0) == -Inf.
>>
>> I do not know, whether there are also other such situations. In  
>> particular
>>  (0)^(-1) == (-0)^(-1) # [1] TRUE
>>  log(0) == log(-0) # [1] TRUE
>>
>>
>>> There are occasions where it is useful to be able to detect things  
>>> like this (and NaN and Inf and -Inf etc.). They are usually not of  
>>> interest to users, but sometimes are needed for developers to  
>>> check edge effects. For those cases it may be time to consider a  
>>> package FPIEEE754 or some similar name to allow testing and  
>>> possibly setting of flags for some of the fancier features. Likely  
>>> used by just a few of us in extreme situations.
>>>
>>
>> I think that distinguishing 0 and -0 may be useful even for nonexpert
>> users for debugging purposes. Mainly, because x == y does not imply
>> that x and y behave equally as demonstrated above or by
>>  x <- 0
>>  y <-  - 0
>>  x == y # [1] TRUE
>>  1/x == 1/y # [1] FALSE
>>
>> I would like to recall the suggestion
>>  On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 03:04:07PM +0200, Martin Maechler wrote:
>>  > Maybe we should introduce a function that's basically
>>  > isTRUE(all.equal(..., tol=0))  {but faster},  or
>>  > do you want a 3rd argument to identical, say 'method'
>>  > with default  c("oneNaN", "use.==", "strict")
>>  >   > oneNaN: my proposal of using  memcmp() on doubles as its  
>> used for
>>  >        other types already  (and hence distinguishing +0 and -0;
>>  >      otherwise keeping the feature that there's just one NaN
>>  >      which differs from 'NA' (and there's just one 'NA').
>>  >   > use.==: the previous R behaviour, using '==' on doubles    
>> >   (and the "oneNaN" behavior)
>>  >   > strict: be even stricter than oneNaN:  Use  memcmp()
>>  >   unconditionally for doubles.  This would be the fastest
>>  >   version of all three.
>>
>> In my opinion, for debugging purposes, the option  
>> identical(x,y,method="strict"),
>> which implies that x and y behave equally, could be useful, if it  
>> is available
>> in R base,
>> At the R interactive level, negative zero as the value of -0 could  
>> possibly
>> be avoided. However, negative zero may also occur in numerical  
>> calculations,
>> since it may be obtained as x * 0, where x is negative. So, i  
>> think, negative
>> zero cannot be eliminated from consideration as something too  
>> infrequent.
>
> I wouldn't mind a "strict" option.   It would compare bit patterns,  
> so would distinguish +0 from -0, and different NaN values. But  
> having the value of  identical(x-y, -(y-x)) depend on whether x and  
> y are equal or not would just lead to confusion.

... but so do other things routinely such as floating point  
arithmetics so I don't think this is a strong argument here. IMHO  
identical(0, -0) should return FALSE, because they are simply not the  
same objects and that's what identical is supposed test for. If you  
want to test equality of elements there are other means you should be  
using that were mentioned in this thread.

Cheers,
Simon



[Rd] identical(0, -0)
Simon Urbanek