From dwinsemius at comcast.net  Fri Sep  1 21:47:11 2017
From: dwinsemius at comcast.net (David Winsemius)
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 12:47:11 -0700
Subject: [Rd] Natural vs National in R signon banner?
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> On Sep 1, 2017, at 2:17 AM, Mark van der Loo <mark.vanderloo at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The way it's phrased now makes it seem that English is not a Natural
> language ("Natural language support *but* running in an English locale").
> Why not just state: "running in an English locale" and leave it with that?
> Better to leave something out than to be unclear (being correct formally
> does not always mean being clear to all users).

I think the goal is to notify the user that "internationalization" efforts have been made, so something like:

"Internationalization support of messages may be available,
 but currently running in an English locale."

That would have the desirable side-effect of alerting new users to the effective search strategy to use.

-- 

David.

> -M
> 
> Op vr 1 sep. 2017 om 11:00 schreef Peter Dalgaard <pdalgd at gmail.com>:
> 
>> Just leave it, I think. Some nations have 4 national languages (as Martin
>> will know), some languages are not national, and adopted children often do
>> not speak their native (=born) language... I suspect someone already put a
>> substantial amount of thought into the terminology.
>> 
>> -pd
>> 
>> 
>>> On 1 Sep 2017, at 09:45 , Martin Maechler <maechler at stat.math.ethz.ch>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>>>> Paul McQuesten <mcquesten at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>   on Thu, 31 Aug 2017 18:48:12 -0500 writes:
>>> 
>>>> Actually, I do agree with you about Microsoft.
>>>> But they have so many users that their terminology should not be
>> ignored.
>>> 
>>>> Here are a few more views:
>>> 
>>>> 
>> https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/ssw_aix_71/com.ibm.aix.performance/natl_lang_supp_locale_speed.htm
>>>> https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E26033/glmbx.html
>>>> 
>> http://support.sas.com/documentation/cdl/en/nlsref/69741/HTML/default/viewer.htm#n1n9bwctsthuqbn1xgipyw5xwujl.htm
>>>> 
>> https://docs.intersystems.com/latest/csp/docbook/DocBook.UI.Page.cls?KEY=GSA_config_nls
>>>> 
>> https://sites.ualberta.ca/dept/chemeng/AIX-43/share/man/info/C/a_doc_lib/aixprggd/genprogc/nls.htm
>>>> 
>> http://scc.ustc.edu.cn/zlsc/tc4600/intel/2017.0.098/compiler_f/common/core/GUID-1AEC889E-98A7-4A7D-91B3-865C476F603D.html
>>> 
>>>> It does appear, however, that what I call 'National Language' is often
>>>> referred to as 'Native Language'. And the 'National Language'
>> terminology
>>>> is said to not be used consistently:
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_language
>>> 
>>>> I do still feel, however, that claiming 'Natural Language' support in R
>>>> sets expectations of new users overly high.
>>> 
>>>> Thank you for spending so much time on such a minor nit.
>>> 
>>> continuing the nits and gnats :
>>> 
>>> I think I now understand what you mean.  From the little I
>>> understand about English intricacies and with my not
>>> fully developed gut feeling of good English (which I rarely
>>> speak but sometimes appreciate when reading / listening),
>>> I would indeed
>>> 
>>> prefer  'Native Language'
>>> to    'Natural Language'
>>> 
>>> Martin Maechler
>>> ETH Zurich
>>> 
>>>> Regards
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:45 PM, Duncan Murdoch <
>> murdoch.duncan at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> On 31/08/2017 6:37 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks, Duncan. But if it is not inappropriate, I feel empowered to
>> argue.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> According to this definition, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>>>>> Natural_language:
>>>>>> In neuropsychology, linguistics and the philosophy of language, a
>>>>>> natural language or ordinary language is any language that has evolved
>>>>>> naturally in humans ...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thus this banner statement may appear over-claiming to a significant
>>>>>> fraction of R users.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It seems that LOCALE is called 'National language' support in other
>>>>>> software systems.
>>>>>> Eg: https://www.microsoft.com/resources/msdn/goglobal/default.mspx
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wouldn't take Microsoft as an authority on this (or much of
>> anything).
>>>>> They really are amazingly incompetent, considering how much money they
>> earn.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Duncan Murdoch
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> And, yes, this is a low priority issue. All of you have better things
>> to
>>>>>> do.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> R is an extremely powerful and comprehensive software system.
>>>>>> Thank you all for that.
>>>>>> And I would like to clean one gnat from the windshield.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I just wax pedantic at times.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 5:13 PM, Duncan Murdoch <
>> murdoch.duncan at gmail.com
>>>>>> <mailto:murdoch.duncan at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 31/08/2017 5:38 PM, Paul McQuesten wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The R signon banner includes this statement:
>>>>>> Natural language support but running in an English locale
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Should that not say 'National' instead of 'Natural'?
>>>>>> Meaning that LOCALE support is enabled, not that the interface
>>>>>> understands
>>>>>> human language?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No, "natural language" refers to human languages, but it doesn't
>>>>>> imply that R understands them.  NLS just means that messages may be
>>>>>> presented in (or translated to) other human languages in an
>>>>>> appropriate context.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> For example, you can start R on most platforms from the console using
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> LANGUAGE=de R
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> and instead of the start message you saw, you'll see
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> R ist freie Software und kommt OHNE JEGLICHE GARANTIE.
>>>>>> Sie sind eingeladen, es unter bestimmten Bedingungen weiter zu
>>>>>> verbreiten.
>>>>>> Tippen Sie 'license()' or 'licence()' f?r Details dazu.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> and so on.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Please ignore this and forgive me if this is an inappropriate
>>>>>> post. I am a
>>>>>> N00B in R.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't think it is inappropriate.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Duncan Murdoch
>>> 
>>> ______________________________________________
>>> R-devel at r-project.org mailing list
>>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel
>> 
>> --
>> Peter Dalgaard, Professor,
>> Center for Statistics, Copenhagen Business School
>> Solbjerg Plads 3, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark
>> Phone: (+45)38153501 <+45%2038%2015%2035%2001>
>> Office: A 4.23
>> Email: pd.mes at cbs.dk  Priv: PDalgd at gmail.com
>> 
>> ______________________________________________
>> R-devel at r-project.org mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel
> 
> 	[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
> 
> ______________________________________________
> R-devel at r-project.org mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel

David Winsemius
Alameda, CA, USA

'Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.'   -Gehm's Corollary to Clarke's Third Law



[Rd] Natural vs National in R signon banner?
David Winsemius