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Last use for SL SD captured

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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:00 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:The design and specifications for a Scientist-class "SD" is over 200 years out of date. Despite some upgrades to armament and defenses, they still have their original 200 year-old armor specification.
200 years - no it isn't.


So exactly how old do you think the Scientist-class design is?
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by kzt   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:19 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
So exactly how old do you think the Scientist-class design is?

200 years, just like it says in the books.

Which is also why it is suitable for a verge polity, it's like the difference between expecting Kenya to support F-35s or T-34s. One of them a common machine shop can make most of the parts, the other had 30 million lines of software that doesn't quite work right and engines that are pushing the edge of state of the art.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Theemile   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:17 pm

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kzt wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
So exactly how old do you think the Scientist-class design is?

200 years, just like it says in the books.

Which is also why it is suitable for a verge polity, it's like the difference between expecting Kenya to support F-35s or T-34s. One of them a common machine shop can make most of the parts, the other had 30 million lines of software that doesn't quite work right and engines that are pushing the edge of state of the art.


The problem is what is really needed for a kenya is f-16s or mig 29s, something still a credible threat, but mature enough that support is readily available. Yes, the f-22 is going to wack them under most conditions, but it will stand off the other 3rd and 4th gen fighters your neighbors have. You can't hope to stand off against a couple carrier groups and F-22 squadrons, but will make sure any neighbors won't get frisky.
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RFC said "Six years from "What the heck is that?" to "I christen thee SLNS First Podnaught" would have been remarkable ... for the RMN. For the Solarian League, frankly, I doubt very much that it would be possible"
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:21 pm

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kzt wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:
So exactly how old do you think the Scientist-class design is?


200 years, just like it says in the books.


Thanx for the confirmation. :roll:

Of course, you're reasonably rational and not the person who denied the design was 200 years old.

kzt wrote:Which is also why it is suitable for a verge polity, it's like the difference between expecting Kenya to support F-35s or T-34s. One of them a common machine shop can make most of the parts, the other had 30 million lines of software that doesn't quite work right and engines that are pushing the edge of state of the art.


T-34s don't fly very well. :D

Kenya probably could maintain F-100s or F-5Es without a lot of problems, but I wouldn't bet on them having a particularly effective defense network if that was what they were willing to settle for.

(FWIW, Wiki says the Kenyan Air Force has 15 F5E as its combat aircraft complement. Primarily used as attack rather than interceptors.)

Comparable Honorverse equipment would be modern (Haven Sector) LACs.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by kzt   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:01 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
(FWIW, Wiki says the Kenyan Air Force has 15 F5E as its combat aircraft complement. Primarily used as attack rather than interceptors.)


Which are probably pretty much entirely maintained by contractors and the manufacturer unde permits from the USG. If you were say Estonia, would you want your military to be essentially controlled by Russian contractors?
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Weird Harold   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:04 pm

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kzt wrote:If you were say Estonia, would you want your military to be essentially controlled by Russian contractors?


Since 50% of the Estonian AF's fixed wing assets are Russian-built transports, I'd guess it doesn't bother them all that much. (the other, 50% is Czech trainer/light attack)

Of course they only own four fixed wing assets. (The rest is helicopters for SAR and border surveillance. :roll: )

Before you come up with some other extraneous example, No matter who a verge system gets its warships from, they're going to be dependent on someone for support. If they could build their own armaments, they would instead of relying on a "big brother."

From textev, it would seem that Manticore is the best source for military assistance; every ally mentioned throughout the series has gotten an economic boost as well as subsidized shipyards capable of repairs if not construction from scratch.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:20 pm

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MAD-4A: chill.

getting info from the honorverse wiki is not a good idea. like a lot of wiki it can be highly inaccurate, and the honorverse in particular has tons of errors.

i'm am not advocating one thing or another. i simply pointed out that:

1: that solly ships armour is not as good as manty so a solly ship would take more damage then a manty of a similar size/class. it is quite decent armour for when it was created.

2: smaller size ships can not carry the same amount of armour as bigger ships. making your statement that all SDs had the same amount of armour massively false.

I have have said nothing about if they should be sold or not

that said RFC has made it plain in both text ev and in pearls that the SLN SDs are flying death traps and any one who has a different option/choice should use it.

I am out of this argument. There have been some semi coherent arguments made for selling countered by many good for simply scrapping them.

our opinions on this do not count. RFC clearly favors scrapping but we shall simply have to wait and see what (if anything) he says about them in the next book
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:53 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:But it wouldn't have much influence at home unless they were avenging the insult and recapturing their lost units.
It wouldn't have any influence at home anyway "Well sure were getting our @$$#$ handed to us on a platter by 3 other star kingdoms, but don't worry we've been using our battle fleet to pick on some little verge systems instead." yea that's going to fly well at home, SDs or no SDs.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by MAD-4A   » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:25 pm

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Dauntless wrote: making your statement that all SDs had the same amount of armour massively false.
I never made that statement, I said that an SD is an SD, not that they had the exact same armor, though ANY SD has far better protection than ANY non-SD/DN. (plus there's the shear pucker-factor... Don't underestimate the Pucker-factor.)



During Operation Drumbeat Korvettenkapitän Reinhard Hardegen ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Hardegen ) commanded U-123. He stated that while approaching the US East coast he received a coded message authorizing him to break security and attack a crippled freighter off the coast of Canada which High-Command had intercepted a distress call from, requesting a tug. As he approached the area, he ran into a dense fog. He spotted 2 sets of lights in the fog, which he assumed were the freighter and tug, so he approached silently. As he got nearer and could see clearer, through the fog, he saw 2 other sets of lights in the distance ... and the 2 he was approaching ... 2 British Destroyers !!! siting dead-ahead, dead in the water. his reaction "FULL REVERSE GET US OUT OF HERE!!!" (major-pucker-factor) After he extracted himself he realized he had a perfect torpedo shot on the nearest destroyer and could have blown it in half, too late. He never really got over the missed opportunity.
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Re: Last use for SL SD captured
Post by Lord Skimper   » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:40 pm

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So how hard would it be to load a Military wedge from a Scientist on a Freighter based CLAC? Add ERM end tubes with a CLAC hammerhead, Pull the displays and sensors, Counter Missiles and Point Defense from the Scientists, Some Bunks, life support and shuttle bays etc... Nodes, Maybe Hyperspace and sails, then make a container based LAC dock and just make a 100+ LAC CLAC, from each Scientist. No need to grab anything big or hard to get to from the armoured magazines or removing armour, except the CM and PD.

The CLAC could also be run with Beta Squared Nodes, remove the Hyper drive and keep it in system.

The CLAC and LAC are very SD like for intimidation factor, with Beta Squared Nodes it would appear to be a Modern SD(P). Can be in many places and The basic ship can be made from a shell very quickly. Using container parts one can make a basic LAC module then copy it over and over again.

Also smaller systems almost always run LAC so stepping them up to Manty LAC won't be as big a deal as going up to a SD. Yet will make a big difference militarily. Giving these systems a CLAC to carry these LAC would solve many problems. One could also run with second line Manty Crews for the CLAC and use local crews for the LAC, with training move the in system crews into the CLAC and move the Manty Crews into the Support ships, when they arrive.

An export version of the LAC, the tech that is given to torch, can be made available for the new systems and with 100+ LAC securing a system. Even a League SD would have problems.

As for support having Haven build a bunch of Nike BCL's would would complete the security of the systems and would coordinate all LAC activities amoung local systems.
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