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Amireal (amireal) wrote,
Amireal
amireal

Fanfiction. Knowledge is power?

Recently, someone linked the stargate fan awards to the forums on David Hewlett's site. Personally I am mortified. From a distanced perspective I'm kind of annoyed. First, I feel that I can at least comment on this because I am indeed linked several times in that website. So the idea is hitting me twofold. As I said above, as someone with direct personal involvement and as someone who participates in fandom as a whole.

Why am I upset?

List, under the cut.Collapse )

Edit: Please do not search the thread out on the site, nor go haranguing anyone. Let it die a natural death. And if we chose to post about it, let is be in an intellectual sense about fan organization and TPTB that we avoid.
Tags: frothy rage
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Sometimes I think too many of these people were raised by wolves because, seriously people, whatever happened to manners and good taste? Didn't their mothers teach them better behavior? Just because an actor is a public figure does not mean it's appropriate to declare open season on them. IMHO, civility is far too under-appreciated and under-practiced in this day and age.

Forgive my soapbox perching, but I just don't understand this.
I've taken some huge steps back from the DH forum. At first it was like "wow, an actor who is as much of a geek fan as we are," but that feeling has slowly been replaced by dread. I can appreciate the marketing strategy that DH is employing, but people are forgetting that it is still someone else's sandbox that they're pissing in.

There are some things you just don't do period on a space that isn't personally furnished by you. The fact that this is an official site (and if you think about it, it really is because DH is marketing his movie hard core), only makes it a hundred times worse.

*shakes head* Makes you want to smack some of those people upside the head.
Actually, this isn't just a site for marketing his movie. DH has now funneled everything into this one site, dubbing it the official online home for all things Hewlett. So it's more than just his movie outlet now.

And really, there's only one poster who's creating this problem now. Sure she has followers, but she's the one who won't let this conflict rest. There's an agenda here that I just can't fathom.
Got here via sga_newsletter.

Um. While I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of the legal and personal problems of linking fanwork to official sources, I think you and many of those who posted comments need to consider the, for lack of a better word, cultural differences between LJ and a discussion forum like, say, GateWorld before deriding anybody as stupid.

Everything is out in the open in a forum. (Well, most forums have a private messaging system, but this is basically the equivalent of sending an e-mail.) Any action you do will pop the thread to the top of the board where everyone can see it, click it, and read it. As a frequent visitor to GW, I have no words for how jarring the transition from such a... naked-before-a-crowd environment to the private and insular LJ social circles can be. And vice versa. Before I do anything, I have to think if what I want is in accordance to the, well, rules, and this requires that I constantly watch and review my behavior. Sometimes I forget. And I at least have the benefit of experience with both forums and LJ. If you rarely visit LJ? I imagine trying to figure out what's acceptable is akin to scrabbling around blind in a room filled with mines.

What I'm trying to say is that it's understandable if forum posters can't figure out why LJ writers don't want to be linked. The first few times, certainly. After all, I air my thoughts publicly, and I open myself to the praise, ridicule, and indifference of hundreds, thousands of strangers. This is what fandom is. Why is it so difficult for you? You don't need to be an inconsiderate prick to make this mistake.

Personally, I've linked LJ to GW. Mostly meta posts that enlightened my world but also a bit of fanfic. I try to keep my fic recs gen and in fanfic forums, but there's always the possibility that someone will take offense. In which case, the author's wishes take precedence, and I'll do my best to be sensitive to the concerns of others. Hopefully, all ends well, and nobody gets hurt.

Is there a danger that I and, more importantly, whoever I link will face legal repercussions? Yes.

However, unless the author objects, I think the consequences are worth it. Because, as many have said, fanfic is for the fans. And the vast majority of the folks at GW and in other public forums have as much right to that title as anyone here. An unpopular opinion, I'm afraid. ^^;;
I need to run, so I'm going to answer one specific point and hope to remember to get back to the rest later.

GW and other Public Forums are not official forums.

It's really, really important to remember that.

DH's website IS far more official than GW. To me it's like aknowledging that different modes of behavior are acceptable in different places.

Also, did I call anyone stupid? Rude possibly and/or unthinking. But I think I refrained from stupid. If I did imply that then I was out of line.
GW and other Public Forums are not official forums... DH's website IS far more official than GW. To me it's like aknowledging that different modes of behavior are acceptable in different places.

I agree. What I was trying to get at is that, by their very nature, discussion forums are more prone to, maybe even encourage, free linking. This is not to say it's smart or right to do so, especially on official sites, but it's very easy to forget that, and the people who do it are not necessarily clueless about the issues you've listed. You believe these are major problems—and, in truth, so do I—but does everyone?

The question is whether what a LJ writer thinks is acceptable behavior in a forum is the same as what a forum poster thinks is acceptable behavior in a forum. I think it often isn't.

Also, did I call anyone stupid?

Probably not. ^^;;

Reading over my comment, I think I may have phrased things a bit strongly. More confusing still, I extended a very specific discussion about one person's actions on one message board into a general debate about what's acceptable in any forum.

Frankly, I'm a bit touchy on the subject of LJ and forums. I sometimes get the feeling that people on LJ simply hate forums, and I think it doesn't take much to turn that into a bias against all forum posters. I skimmed the other comments and caught a few two many insults, I guess. Got defensive. Though I hope not unreasonably.
Last note: The person specifically in question in the specific incident on DH's boards IS an LJ user.
Apropos of nothing, but - icon love!
Speaking personally, I have a lot more experience on public messageboards than on LJ, so I'm in no way a stranger to the culture that you're describing. The problem we have with the linking was that it took place on an official site. Gateworld is not an official site but a fansite. Linking to my LJ on GW is not at all the same thing as linking it on DH's official site.
I really shouldn't have started arguing about acceptable behavior in all forums without first clarifying that I was taking the debate beyond the specific question of linking fanwork to official sites. The latter is pretty clear to me; I'm far more interested in the former. I'm sorry for the confusion.

Er. I do have one more point. While I agree with everyone here that pushing unsolicited fanwork on official sources is a big no-no, coming down on people who do it like a lead pipe to the head solves the immediate problem but does no good for relations between LJ and forums of any kind. No matter how valid, unduly harsh criticism would probably scare not only those being criticized but every other reader off ever putting another LJ link in a forum, public or official. Which would be fine for official forums but not so great for public ones. Not to mention folks get a bad impression of LJ.
Okay, first of all, I really don't think this is about LJ users having a different idea of acceptable behavior than "forum users." For one thing, most of the members of DH's forum seem to have LJs; for another, linking to someone else's work on an official site without that person's permission is pretty universally defined as questionable internet ethics; it's not a position exclusive to LJ users. And for still another thing, the poster in question IS an LJ user, so it's not as if she wouldn't have known the behavioral norms in both cultures.

Second of all, despite the way our reactions have repeatedly been characterized on this issue, most of us have expressed our opinions reasonably and politely. No lead pipes were harmed in the voicing of our concerns. On the other hand, this issue has come up again and again and again, generally instigated by this very same poster. The last time I was part of this discussion, she even agreed that it was probably best to limit fanfic discussions to general terms. Why she suddenly reversed herself and feigned amnesia about the whole agreement is somewhat mystifying.

I am personally very tired of people reacting to our concerns as though we were hysterical control freaks. Our views have consistently been presented rationally and with respect.
For one thing, most of the members of DH's forum seem to have LJs...

Which, IMO, isn't as guaranteed to give you exposure to LJ etiquette as being an active member of a discussion forum gives you an understanding of the rules there. Nobody moderates personal LJs and, for the most part, people stay within their own circles of friends. If your friends don't care and you're not lucky enough to run into someone who'll point out the error of your ways, how would you know any better?

[F]or another, linking to someone else's work on an official site without that person's permission is pretty universally defined as questionable internet ethics; it's not a position exclusive to LJ users.

Not exclusive to LJ users, no, certainly not, but neither is it universal. If you go through amireal's list of three cons, IMO, only the first is objective. People will have different opinions as to how personal a personal site is and whether or what sort of fantasies are suitable for public consumption. If someone has a poor understanding of how LJ writers interpret #2 and #3, it'd take a much stronger aversion to breaking #1 to keep that person from overstepping bounds.

Second of all, despite the way our reactions have repeatedly been characterized on this issue, most of us have expressed our opinions reasonably and politely... On the other hand, this issue has come up again and again and again, generally instigated by this very same poster.

Damn, I was being too general again. My apologies.

I'm sure most folks here would deal firmly but respectfully with anyone linking inappropriately. At least when posting to the forum in reply. That said, there's probably been bad incidents in the past, either egged on by hotheads on both sides or because the nerves of even the most reasonable people get frayed after ten rounds of debate. While the bad sentiment from one of these fights would spread in LJ, too, I imagine the process is even faster on a message board. Leading otherwise neutral forum posters to side against reasonable LJ writers.

Another factor to consider, I think, is how prevalent fanfic is on LJ as opposed to a discussion forum. Fanfic writers are, naturally, the most concerned about and the most well versed in the intricate do's and don'ts of fanfic. The majority of forum visitors, though, are probably not that familiar with fanfic and, so, more likely to trip over a taboo and wonder why they fell.

When it comes to, say, interacting with actors and TPTB at cons, an experience that LJ users and forum posters share, what's acceptable and what's not is pretty much the same for both groups (note the convention etiquette thread at GW).

Like any extremely active LJ community, though, there are always a few who either didn't read the rules, forgot them, don't understand them, or think they're above them.

Then there are trolls. Who can't be reasoned with because they argue for the sake of arguing and don't truly care about the topic. Warn, block, report to a mod, ignore. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Not exclusive to LJ users, no, certainly not, but neither is it universal. If you go through [info]amireal's list of three cons, IMO, only the first is objective. People will have different opinions as to how personal a personal site is and whether or what sort of fantasies are suitable for public consumption. If someone has a poor understanding of how LJ writers interpret #2 and #3, it'd take a much stronger aversion to breaking #1 to keep that person from overstepping bounds.

Okay we're running into two things here. It's not just LJ vs Forum. But older fans and new. Before LJ it was still considered impolite to link willy nilly. Especially to official boards. In fact, 'old skool fandom' it wasn't even thought of as a possibility because of reason #1.

The practice of giving caveats to linking right up front has possibly faded, most likely due to a shift in mediums (webpages to auto archives to LJ) but the idea od direct linking without thinking has always been one of those 'absurb' notions amungst many(if not all) in fandom.

It's NOT LJ writers though a majority of fic writers ARE now on LJ, at least in THIS fandom. It's a majority of fans who either have been at this longer, or come from fandoms that *have* been attacked in the past.
It's NOT LJ writers though a majority of fic writers ARE now on LJ, at least in THIS fandom. It's a majority of fans who either have been at this longer, or come from fandoms that *have* been attacked in the past.

I assume you're referring to my hypothetical if someone has a poor understanding of etc.? Damn! Too general again! And yet, at the same time, too specific. I was thinking of SGA in particular, as that's what we started out talking about. :P

You have a valid point about the division between older fans and new. I do, however, get the feeling that the concentration of older fans versus new tends to be the opposite between LJ and forums for most fandoms. Could be totally wrong. That's just my impression. Though I imagine old school rules, desire for privacy, how well known the medium is and through what channels you're introduced, fandom history, and technology savvy all play a role.
*nods* You could be right. I know that I am touchy on the subject - when I first started reading fanfiction back in the 70s, you practically had to swear a blood oath to get someone to slip you their photocopy fanzine, pledging death before disclosure (and this wasn't even slash, which I didn't find till the 90s). I remember how concerned some people were when fanfic stories were published in "Star Trek: New Voyages", worried that their favorite writers were going to be slapped down by TPTB. I was warned to lie-low when I started writing X-Files stories because of Fox's actions, although they were mostly against photo sites. And then more recently, the Harry Potter fandom has had a couple run-ins with lawyers - I've had to password-protect the archive I run, and more recently, the distributer selling my music vids had to stop selling my most recent set because there's a Harry Potter vid on it and they're in the middle of legal action over HP zines. So okay, the Stargate people seem fine about it - but then again, Anne Rice was okay for 5 years before she suddenly changed her mind and had her people actively stalking and harassing fanfic writers, even after they removed stories about her books from their sites. So yeah, I think I'm more cautious than, say, the person who just discovered fandom this year and thinks it's all wonderful and free for all.
Yeah, amireal really hit that one out of the park. I wonder, though, whether you or any of the old school fans ever thought that fandom should be all wonderful and free for everybody? Or if this mentality crops up exclusively in fans who discovered fandom after the Internet made it exponentially easier to share information and ideas?

I'm thinking that, having been introduced to fandom through the Internet, newer fans want still more freedom, never mind that total freedom would be a disaster. Incidents like the one in amireal's original post maybe have more to do with this generation of fans being the hippie flower children of the previous. Who, naturally, don't want to heed the advice of their elders, think they're right, all rage against the system, etc. Fandom simply hasn't settled into a comfortable middle ground?

Well, then again, maybe that's stupid. ^^;;
I wonder, though, whether you or any of the old school fans ever thought that fandom should be all wonderful and free for everybody? Or if this mentality crops up exclusively in fans who discovered fandom after the Internet made it exponentially easier to share information and ideas?

Jumping in late, but I wanted to put my .02 in on this.

I've been in fandom close to nine years, which is well beyond the days of zine-only fanfic, but still back before LJ, when we were all living out of message boards, email and mailing lists. I, and most everyone I knew back then, never had any thoughts along those lines. We were all well aware that fandom was a private, insular thing that you shared with like-minded people online and never talked much about in public and certainly not on any official site/forum/mailing list online.

That was just a year or two after the Paramount thing in the Star Trek fandom and right when the Fox bit was going on with the X-Files one (and if you asked around, you could also hear about the LucasFilm debacle from the 80s). Even utter newbies heard of both and as a result were uber cautious about what they did with their fic, where they posted it. We didn't want the PTB of our respective fandoms following suit and slapping the rest of us down like that. Yeah, there were some crazies in fandom who had to be attention-whores and deliberately point out their (usually NC-17) fic to the actors, but, as we've seen, there'll always be that kind of bat-shit crazy somewhere in fandom. The best the rest of us can do is duck and cover our asses when it surfaces.

That was a bit rambly, but simply put, no, it wasn't just the "old school" fans who were that cautious. Outside of the rare, nutball exception, I don't see any sort of "carefree" attitude amongst the internet fans, newbies or not.
Whoa. If you want to link your own fics to a forum, that's one thing. Linking other people's fics to a public forum without their permission is a whole 'nother thing entirely. Yeah, you can say that they posted in public when they go on a livejournal or an archive, but the writer has some control over that posting, choosing what communities they post to, or whether to friends lock their post, or posting to an archive that's password protected, etc. When you post a link to someone else's fic to a public forum, you are taking their choice out of their hands. *Their* ability to judge the consequences for themselves and how public they want to be. The best analagy I can give is gay people choosing to be in or out of the closet, and those people who "out" them without their permission.

Also, what rights are you talking about? People don't have automatic rights to all fiction out there. If people want to post fanfic to a forum and in turn read the fanfic there, that's fine and dandy. If they want to find more fanfic, they are perfectly welcome to join other forums and LJs, to make contacts in their search for more stuff. But posting someone else's stuff or links to their stuff - uh uh. It's the same problem those of us who vid have with people who upload our vids to YouTube and such places, even when they give us credit. Our stuff, our choice where it goes. Period. End.
So LJ communities like sga_newsletter? Which is watched by about 1,800 people? All of whom, no doubt, have their friends, who have their friends, etc. And this doesn't account for lurkers.

What about posting fic recs in your LJ? No problem if it's only one person but if it's not? And, again, there's the possibility that you'll set off a friend cascade.

My point is that, when a fic has traveled by the digital equivalent of word of mouth six degrees or more away from you, the writer, are you really able to keep track of and control the dissemination? And the spreading continues. Certainly, it would have to, as there are certain fics it seems everybody in the entire LJ fandom has read.

Also, what rights are you talking about? People don't have automatic rights to all fiction out there... If they want to find more fanfic, they are perfectly welcome to join other forums and LJs, to make contacts in their search for more stuff.

But as I understand it, if I'm in a public forum, I cannot help others find what they're looking for. I cannot express my admiration for this or that fanfic or post about how reading a certain story changed my life or anything like that, how a certain vid is the best example of editing I've ever seen. Because that would inevitably lead to naming names and putting up links. I could be very, very vague as to where my discussion topic came from but then I, at least, feel like I'm not giving proper credit. I can PM people. Unless there are many interested, in which case things get hairy. Can you see why this would be frustrating?

That said, I can understand why GW and other public forums are rather dangerous and intimidating places for LJ users. The largest board I'm a member of, TFN's Jedi Council Forums, has 200,000+ members. Of course, LJ has 11,000,000+ journals and communities but, by God, you don't see all of them at the same time.

Then again, not all forum members will browse through your post and hit a link. Especially if your post is sitting in a relatively low-traffic subforum. :D

Hm. Debating my way through this thread has gotten me thinking that I haven't been sensitive enough in linking LJ. I might try to go through my GW posts, note who I've linked, and ask for (belated) permission, with the understanding that I'll gladly withdraw any links. I only have 200 or so posts, so this is still somewhat manageable...
So LJ communities like [info]sga_newsletter? Which is watched by about 1,800 people? All of whom, no doubt, have their friends, who have their friends, etc. And this doesn't account for lurkers.

The newsletter is an ENTIRELY different beast. It's an opt in announcment of fanfic. That is, if people want to hear about fanfic, they optin. That's entirely different than posting in a public forum with official attachments to TPTB.

Also, the newsletter will not link you if asked. However, their links are usually culled from other optin public forums where the authors themselves have posted their fic.

The big difference is that the places these fic links are posted? Are places where people STILL have to search out the fanfic. Have to ask for it. Which makes most writers not care nearly as much about links within the various newsletters.

Also, the maintainers of this newsletter (and I'm sure others) will remove your link if asked.
The big difference is that the places these fic links are posted? Are places where people STILL have to search out the fanfic. Have to ask for it.

Then is posting to fanfic subforums acceptable? In a public forum, if people want to read fanfic, want to discuss and hear about fanfic, that's where they click. Usually the different threads further separate readers by interest. (At this point, I'm not talking about forums with official ties to TPTB.) If I link a fic that was cited on sga_newsletter? Which cited from the author's own post? Too many degrees removed?

Besides, I think most people would take down direct links if the author specifically objected. I would definitely do so. Archives and other link collectives are harder to manage. For example, would it be acceptable for me to link sga_newsletter or sga_noticeboard?

All of which really comes back to this: If someone starts a thread in a public forum asking for recs and many others show interest, am I to understand that I can't rec anything on LJ?
Nono. You're missing the point.

The biggest deal is when the place the link is posted is a public forum on an OFFICIAL website. Everyone's big hoopla is bringing fanworks of an illegal nature in ANY CONTACT with TPTB.

GW is not an official site and while I'd prefer my stuff not get linked there for various and sundry reasons, but as it's owners and maintainers are not linked to MGM through a contract, my objects would be different and not nearly as stringent.

Mostly I'd rather just avoid GW as it's not my type of place and most of my type of fiction has more appropriate places elsewhere.

We're not debating public forums (the generic), though some would argue that it's just polite to drop a line for specific links to things that affect bandwidth, like personal webpages. We're debated public forums with official attachment.
Oookay. We're totally arguing different things, lol. I agreed... somewhere way up the page with your position on official sites. I'm really more interested in the generic public forum, as that's what affects me. I apologize for the confusion—I know I tend toward prolixity, and it may be difficult to pick out anything of worth from what I say if you're not familiar with me. If you don't feel like continuing on about forums in general, we can call it quits! And I say another sorry for spamming your journal with apparently irrelevant comments. ^^;;
If YOU want to post a link to your story there, that's fine. If you've read a story there and you want to point newer board members to that story, that's fine. But if an author isn't a member of that board, then no, I wouldn't post a link to it without their permission. And it's fairly easy to get permission - if you have the link, you have a way to contact the author, either by comment or by email. It's just an extra step. But posting and then taking it down if the author objects - the damage has already been done by then.

As for the rec threads - that's opening a big kettle of fish, and I'm not even sure that the person should have started the thread in the first place, not if it's a Public forum. If it's a private one, a fandom board, then that's one thing and you should be able to gauge the degree of safety in posting links there. However, we're talking specifically about an actor's board here, and the idea of someone posting links to stories where his character is having sex, whether het or slash, just freaks me out, personally. Gen stories, well, that's still skirting the issue that what we're doing - writing our own stories about someone else's characters - is basically illegal. And if you think that TPTB don't care about our little stories, ask the owners of The Restricted Section and ask Agent With Style, or ask people in Anne Rice's fandoms. Some of them care a great deal, and they have a lot more money than we do.
[I]f an author isn't a member of that board, then no, I wouldn't post a link to it without their permission.

Fair enough. So the writer can decide who the intended audience is? Of course, you would then have to assume fics posted to LJ were intended for LJ users only and ask permission for any sort of outside linking.

In this case, I rather think having both a LJ and forum accounts would make it harder to abide by the above rule. Because being able to freely link on LJ and yet not being able to do so in forums, no matter how logical and correct or how little extra effort you have to go through, would eventually start to wear. Especially as the effect doesn't go in the opposite direction. IMO.

[P]osting and then taking it down if the author objects - the damage has already been done by then.

Well, it's always good to contain the damage, right? ^^;;

And I think old forum threads are much more likely to pop back to the top of the board and go through a whole new round of discussion than old LJ entries getting any attention at all. The format is fundamentally different.

As for the rec threads - that's opening a big kettle of fish, and I'm not even sure that the person should have started the thread in the first place, not if it's a Public forum. If it's a private one, a fandom board, then that's one thing and you should be able to gauge the degree of safety in posting links there.

Let's not argue about linking fanworks to official sites. We agree there. I'm curious as to how you define a public forum and a private, fandom board. What's the difference between the two for you?

And if you think that TPTB don't care about our little stories...

I'm under no such impression. Though I do think TPTB, to a certain extent, have learned to make some allowances for the new digital age. Doesn't mean TPTB can't up and change their minds, of course, but maybe, just maybe, it's as likely that they'll decide to allow as they'll decide to restrict. :)
The newsletter gets its entries from postings to various LJ communities and from authors themselves. The assumption is that if you post to one of those Stargate communities, then it's okay for the newsletter to list it BUT if you ask the mods, they won't post your link. There is the tacit assumption that if you're a member of one of the communities and post a story there, it's okay for the digest to report it. Same with things like the Stargate rec lists. Presumably, the producers of the show don't read those lists and so there's a relative degree of safety. Also, private boards are different from public ones - I belong to a couple private boards like Kawoosh! for Stargate vids, and I have no problem posting links to MY vids there. However, I still wouldn't post a link to a friend's video there unless I had their explicit permission.

As far as the Star Wars board you mentioned - that's different than, say, if Lucas or one of the actors like Harrison Ford had a board. You wouldn't post a story link there, would you?

As far as helping people in a public forum find things, if someone expresses an interest, you can always ask them to email you off-board where you can take the discussion private and give them links. Yeah, it takes a little more work, but then again, you could be making a new best friend through those emails.

I think everything's already been discussed. (Finally!)

Was hoping for your definition of a private board so checked out Kawoosh! And, as I suspected, you and I have been using a different set of undefined terms. I would consider a forum like Kawoosh! to be public. Because anybody who visits can read the posts and click the links. Unless there are locked posts only members can read?

At any rate, by my definition of a public forum, pretty much all discussion boards are public. That's why I was confused when you referred to private boards. A public forum, by your definition, is one with official ties?

Your last two points are both addressed in the thread above. To wit, a) we agree about linking fanwork to official sites and b) people are naturally lazy and tend toward resentment of extra work. Especially if that work is one-way.

Lastly, thanks for being so patient with my endless debate. I found it enlightening, and I hope it wasn't a total waste of time for you. :)
Is there a danger that I and, more importantly, whoever I link will face legal repercussions? Yes.

However, unless the author objects, I think the consequences are worth it.


I think, and this could be wrong, but I think this is really what got me (though I haven't had a chance to reply yet) and dkwilliams upset.

Let's narrow it down:

Is there a danger... whoever I link will face legal repercussions? Yes.

Who is anyone other than the author or artist of the original works to decide if they are willing to take the risk of repurcussions?

What you just said means that you are willing to get ME in trouble for the greater good. Which I think is where it all breaks down. Because as much as I'm all for freedom of speach and the internet. You do not get to decide what risks I take. And if you want to post to a forum (note: NOT all forums) that has close ties to TPTB, and you want to bring me into it as well, you damn well bet I'm going to be upset if you didn't ASK me first.
Who is anyone other than the author or artist of the original works to decide if they are willing to take the risk of repurcussions? [snip] You do not get to decide what risks I take. And if you want to post to a forum (note: NOT all forums) that has close ties to TPTB, and you want to bring me into it as well, you damn well bet I'm going to be upset if you didn't ASK me first.

Look, I completely agree with you (and many others) about forums with close ties to TPTB. And I'm sorry if I was confusing, but I'd already moved on to talking about forums in general a long way back.

So, with that in mind. Fans take a certain risk in writing fanfic or producing any kind of fanwork, yes? My question, then, is how much risk can be assumed and when does someone who wants to link have to ask? You noted "NOT all forums." Discounting official forums, which of the other public forums is it acceptable to post links in without first asking? Seems to me that it would be maddening for anybody to try and figure this out, and there'd always be the possibility that the original creator(s) of the fanwork don't agree. To be sure, you could play it safe and seek permission every time you post anything to a public forum... but then you look at LJ which, while not entirely open to the everybody, has public domains that you and anybody with a good handle on the LJ search function can find, and I think you would be driven to wonder why the extra work.

I mean, if a writer decides he or she doesn't want to be linked to a public forum of any kind, okay! Say so! I imagine most folks will abide by the writer's wishes. Personally, I'd feel a bit hurt but, as you said, it's your prerogative, not mine. Thing is, there aren't many warnings like that, and people get, IMO, understandably confused, jump to conclusions based on their personal experiences, and end up offending others.
I think this discussion has become confusing because you are making it about forums in general, when this entire post exists solely because of an incident involving a specific, official forum. Not that your topic has no merit, but perhaps it would be better to post it separately in your own journal and link to it on the sga_noticeboard or something.
Yes. I think you're right. Possibly this is the not-exactly-bad-per-se influence of too much time over in the GW forums: I figure once I've agreed to whatever you posted about, I can take the conversation on a related tangent, and everybody will follow. ^^;;

At any rate, thanks for allowing me to sound ideas with you. Even if they were off-topic.
Well the thing is, I get everyone's posts. So I don't often remember who agreed with me on what and you never really gave a solid transition to the general and the ways you were talking I couldn't tell that you'd aknowledged that GW wasn't an official forum etc. Maybe I've been on the go too much? ;)

Well it's a good example of HOW the mediums are different.
Actually, I think this particular case is a good example of how the mediums are the same. XD

I did kind of expect everybody to follow me on my sort-of-related tangent, and that's usually what happens on very popular GW threads. However, I overlooked the fact that all the arguing was between you, me, and blade_girl, with a bit of input from dkwilliams. In such cases, the longer the debate continues, the more off-topic everybody gets, and the less likely it is that anyone is correctly addressing what anyone else says.

GW is exactly the same. Personally, I and another poster almost monopolized a thread with epic-length posts simultaneously arguing details about the Wraith, Sheppard's characterization, and SGA compared to BSG. Turned out there were several points we actually agreed on but neither of us noticed, we were so busy following the thread and replying to what we thought was the topic. Good times, good times.
Okay, personally? I don't care all that much. Things that bother me involve hotlinking and bandwidth stealing. My feelings are once I post to a 'noticeboard' it's fair game to LINK to in any appropriate public forum.

Back to bandwidth. There's a bit more involved in linking to a website. I feel it's more polite. Some people (especially in fandoms that have specific fandom related issues) say upfront, please link to the disclaimer/age statement page. (Noteably this was Harry Potter and X files I beleive). When I link to a story on a website that hasn't previously been 'announced'. I'll ask. When I was putting together my 'list o links' for my webpage, I asked then too.

It's sort of a 'hey you're going to see my refferal links, are there any problems? Especially with the free sites. More than once popular stories have overgrown their bandwidth.
Fair enough. Excellent points about hotlinking and bandwidth.

Thank you very much for the interesting discussion. Though I was off-topic for most of it, I at least found it good to hear other people's opinions and reconsider my own actions. I believe I will browse through my GW posts and ask permission (better late than never?) for my links. Don't have much of a website, but I suppose there's my ff.net profile and the various link lists in my LJ... Well, maybe not the latter. :D
Looking back, I see what happened. You agreed with me and then moved onto taking the other side of an argument I wasn't even making. That's where the confusion came in. Your reply to my post implied that I was talking about all public linking without permission when I had never really expressed an opinion on that at all.

It's all in your phrasing.

What I'm trying to say is that it's understandable if forum posters can't figure out why LJ writers don't want to be linked.

That's taking the argument and removing a very important clause. I uh-- never said forum members would never understand. I just felt that there are boundries even forum members should see.
I uh-- never said forum members would never understand. I just felt that there are boundries even forum members should see.

Well, I went back and tried to remember what the heck I was arguing, too, and came up with a slightly different interpretation:

I agreed with your position that linking fanwork to an official site is a big no-no, but I felt that the boundaries you and I see aren't necessarily clear to forum posters, including those on boards with ties to the TPTB. That is, my opinion is that you can't assume "even forum members should see." Some clearly don't. I was trying to explain the why of that with all the talk about "cultural differences," the nature of discussion forums, people not understanding the views of others on #2 and #3, how prevalent fanfic is, bad sentiment between the two groups.

Many of the other comments said something to the effect that it was impossible to understand what was going through the heads of people who link fanwork to official sites and questioned why it was so hard to argue these posters down and why others supported them. Other folks had already posted comments with the explanation that the linkers are trying to get close to the actors, make their fannish life real, looking for attention, etc. I thought I'd try to argue from a perspective that wasn't so personal, the larger picture of what's different between LJ and any kind of forum.

Where I went off-topic is I used GW as an example. Because of one glaring inconsistency—GW is not an official forum, DH's website is—this tended to break down my arguments. I didn't think that through and went with what I personally knew. Yet further down, around dkwilliams's first post, I began considering whether a code of behavior could be established for all forums in general.

Does that make sense? I'm really very sorry about the confusion! This is actually the first time I've gotten involved in one of these meta fandom debates, and my inexperience is showing. If you can give me any pointers, I'd appreciate it.
Deleted comment
And, hey, get real; people can't possibly believe that Hewlett himself handles the site (or even the text on the site posted under his name). Though I have no proof, common sense suggests that people with "real" jobs don't have time for that sort of thing and they do have people to do it for them.

Actually, he does handle the site himself, at least for the moment. The site is a tool for marketing his independent (and low-budget) film, A Dog's Breakfast. He's a longtime computer techie with skads of web-design experience. Maintaining the forum section of the site probably hasn't taken up a whole ton of time so far, and his girlfriend Jane also helps, probably by keeping an eye out for potential flamefests.
While I don't know for sure that it is David posting I tend to think it is. Everything I have heard gives me the impression he is a geek himself. Besides, there have not been that many posts by David - and those that have been posted have been more to promote something - be it his movie or a book his father wrote. It is not like he has been replying to people, so I don't think it would take up to much of his time.

I would be surprised if he is really reading most of the posts - most likely that is done by his co-moderator and that is only to make sure everyone is playing nicely - so as Blade girl has said I don't think it would take up to much of his time.

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